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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 17 2017 17:58 GMT
#138161
My support of Ellison is based solely that it might satisfy the progressive for a while and might be able to convince them to not attack every centrist democrat after every vote. For that reason alone, he should be given the job.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18857 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-17 18:02:11
February 17 2017 17:59 GMT
#138162
On February 18 2017 02:57 Nebuchad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2017 02:56 farvacola wrote:
On February 18 2017 02:47 Nebuchad wrote:
On February 18 2017 02:34 farvacola wrote:
On February 18 2017 02:30 Nebuchad wrote:
Okay so we have one side who thinks it's not very important which one goes through, something like 55-45, and one side who thinks it's very important which one goes through. So since we're equal in this partnership, you're going to account for how important it's for the other side and choose the person who they think is important, right?

Right?

It'd be a mistake to let anyone carry the standard for 45 or 55 percent of interested Democrats. GH convincing you that millions of people would consider Perez "forced" on them is him doing good politics more than it is an accurate representation of where folks actually fall on the issue. Either will still provide for the realignment that needs to happen imo.


GH convincing me? You might want to spend some time on progressive internet. There are places where even Ellison is viewed as too much of a corporate democrat, but at least he has a decent amount of the support; literally no one is okay with Perez in these circles.

I'm not really interested in hand-wavey attempts at using gesticulating towards particular communities to anchor shorthand characterizations of left, more left, and most left. Yes, there are places where literally everyone thinks like GH, but given my unwillingness to get into the mud of figuring out exactly what proportion of the potentially voting public said places represent, you'll have to forgive me for disagreeing with the idea that obstinacy on the part of an ill-determined sub-constituency should control the outcome of a major party decision.


But we've established that the major party is fine with both, so it's not like we're imposing it on you. We are pushing for a choice that you already agree with.
Yes, but I don't control the parts of the party that prefer Perez, though I'd be directing the same sentiment at them if some were posting to the same effect.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
February 17 2017 18:02 GMT
#138163
I want someone who will get the job of winning done. Someone who will win so much that the Democrats will get tired of winning.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23984 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-17 18:09:51
February 17 2017 18:03 GMT
#138164
I feel like we're back to how stupid of a fight this is, let's just give Ellison the job and figure out wtf we're going to do with Democrats like Manchin.

EDIT: I sense I know where this conversation is heading, so I'd like to just get the argument of "well we'd rather him than a Republican" out of the way first.

What are some examples of something in the past 6 years where having Manchin, instead of a Republican, has made a substantive difference (actually changed an outcome)? Because if there aren't any of those, I feel that argument falls apart on it's face.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
biology]major
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2253 Posts
February 17 2017 18:06 GMT
#138165
On February 18 2017 02:58 Plansix wrote:
My support of Ellison is based solely that it might satisfy the progressive for a while and might be able to convince them to not attack every centrist democrat after every vote. For that reason alone, he should be given the job.


The only way you are going to satisfy bernie bros is if there are changes to the democratic platform itself, and his ideas on free healthcare and college become mainstream. You are dealing with highly ideological people, and this type of thinking is not going to solve your problem. Once you give an inch......
Question.?
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 17 2017 18:09 GMT
#138166
Joe Manchin? Not a lot. We are going to feel luck that we can get a single seat in West Virginia at all. Attempting to primary him will just make him go full Lieberman and switch parties.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23984 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-17 18:11:23
February 17 2017 18:10 GMT
#138167
On February 18 2017 03:09 Plansix wrote:
Joe Manchin? Not a lot. We are going to feel luck that we can get a single seat in West Virginia at all. Attempting to primary him will just make him go full Lieberman and switch parties.


Oops, see EDIT pls
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 17 2017 18:11 GMT
#138168
On February 18 2017 03:06 biology]major wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2017 02:58 Plansix wrote:
My support of Ellison is based solely that it might satisfy the progressive for a while and might be able to convince them to not attack every centrist democrat after every vote. For that reason alone, he should be given the job.


The only way you are going to satisfy bernie bros is if there are changes to the democratic platform itself, and his ideas on free healthcare and college become mainstream. You are dealing with highly ideological people, and this type of thinking is not going to solve your problem. Once you give an inch......

I would rather just give them what they want so they have to stop heckling from the side lines. Just give them the position and see how it worked out in 2018.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
February 17 2017 18:14 GMT
#138169
President Trump’s disturbing Russian connections present an acute danger to American national security. According to reports this week, Mr. Trump’s team maintained frequent contact with Russian officials, including senior intelligence officers, during the campaign. This led to concerns about possible collusion with one of America’s principal strategic adversaries as it tried to influence the election in Mr. Trump’s favor. On Monday, Mr. Trump’s national security adviser, Michael T. Flynn, was forced to resign after details of his communications with the Russian ambassador emerged.

Republican leaders in Congress now bear the most responsibility for holding the president accountable and protecting the nation. They can’t say they didn’t see the Russian interference coming. They knew all along.

...

As the presidential race wore on, some of those leaders began to see parallels between Russia’s disinformation operations in Ukraine and Europe and its activities in the United States. They were alarmed by the Kremlin-backed cable network RT America, which was running stories intended, they judged, to undermine Americans’ trust in democratic institutions and promote Mr. Trump’s candidacy. Deeply unsettled, the leaders discussed these concerns privately on several occasions I witnessed.

...

America’s security is now at stake. For Republican leaders in Congress, there is no more room for cognitive dissonance. Instead, it is urgent that they recommit to patriotic prudence. They should demand that Attorney General Jeff Sessions appoint an independent special counsel to investigate Russia’s assault on American democracy and Mr. Trump’s possible collusion with the Kremlin.

At a minimum, they must establish a bipartisan special select committee with subpoena power in the House or the Senate for the same purpose. This job is too big and significant to be entrusted to the standing intelligence committees, which have critical tasks and limited staff. The nation must have accountability — including public hearings where possible — on these matters.


Evan McMullin
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
February 17 2017 18:15 GMT
#138170
On February 18 2017 03:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
I feel like we're back to how stupid of a fight this is, let's just give Ellison the job and figure out wtf we're going to do with Democrats like Manchin.

EDIT: I sense I know where this conversation is heading, so I'd like to just get the argument of "well we'd rather him than a Republican" out of the way first.

What are some examples of something in the past 6 years where having Manchin, instead of a Republican, has made a substantive difference (actually changed an outcome)? Because if there aren't any of those, I feel that argument falls apart on it's face.

This is not a compelling argument that there is a progressive candidate that can win that state. That man isn’t going away and neither are the voters who vote for him.

But I support your plan of trying to primary him and any other democrat in the senate you disapprove of. Replace them all with Republicans if we can’t have progressives in there. I am excited to see the results.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
February 17 2017 18:15 GMT
#138171
So even if the the story is fake about National Guard helping deport illegal immigrants why is there a memo...



This is a literal West Wing episode that explains why this can't happen.
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
TheTenthDoc
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States9561 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-17 18:18:28
February 17 2017 18:17 GMT
#138172
I don't think Trump watched the West Wing. Too many big words for him. And most of the rest of his admin believes it's vile liberal propaganda.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12465 Posts
February 17 2017 18:17 GMT
#138173
Didn't Bernie win West Virginia in the primary?
No will to live, no wish to die
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23984 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-17 18:22:58
February 17 2017 18:17 GMT
#138174
On February 18 2017 03:15 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2017 03:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
I feel like we're back to how stupid of a fight this is, let's just give Ellison the job and figure out wtf we're going to do with Democrats like Manchin.

EDIT: I sense I know where this conversation is heading, so I'd like to just get the argument of "well we'd rather him than a Republican" out of the way first.

What are some examples of something in the past 6 years where having Manchin, instead of a Republican, has made a substantive difference (actually changed an outcome)? Because if there aren't any of those, I feel that argument falls apart on it's face.

This is not a compelling argument that there is a progressive candidate that can win that state. That man isn’t going away and neither are the voters who vote for him.

But I support your plan of trying to primary him and any other democrat in the senate you disapprove of. Replace them all with Republicans if we can’t have progressives in there. I am excited to see the results.


What's the point in having someone with a D next to their name if they aren't going to make a difference in winning anything for the D they claim? It's celebrating stupid moral victories like that, that's left the Democratic party unable to even fight Trump.

On February 18 2017 03:17 Nebuchad wrote:
Didn't Bernie win West Virginia in the primary?


Yes with a sizable vote total coming into the Democratic primary

Shockingly, it happened to be an open primary state where they let people with no party affiliation participate.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
February 17 2017 18:19 GMT
#138175
On February 18 2017 03:17 Nebuchad wrote:
Didn't Bernie win West Virginia in the primary?

Hillary Clinton insulted coal mining in west virginia. There was a 0% chance that she would win anything there after that (or in KY). Nothing to do with the state being progressive. A republican senator from WV is likely to be extremely far right.
WolfintheSheep
Profile Joined June 2011
Canada14127 Posts
February 17 2017 18:20 GMT
#138176
On February 18 2017 03:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2017 03:15 Plansix wrote:
On February 18 2017 03:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
I feel like we're back to how stupid of a fight this is, let's just give Ellison the job and figure out wtf we're going to do with Democrats like Manchin.

EDIT: I sense I know where this conversation is heading, so I'd like to just get the argument of "well we'd rather him than a Republican" out of the way first.

What are some examples of something in the past 6 years where having Manchin, instead of a Republican, has made a substantive difference (actually changed an outcome)? Because if there aren't any of those, I feel that argument falls apart on it's face.

This is not a compelling argument that there is a progressive candidate that can win that state. That man isn’t going away and neither are the voters who vote for him.

But I support your plan of trying to primary him and any other democrat in the senate you disapprove of. Replace them all with Republicans if we can’t have progressives in there. I am excited to see the results.


What's the point in having someone with a D next to their name if they aren't going to make a difference in winning anything for the D they claim? It's stupid moral victories like that, that's left the Democratic party unable to even fight Trump.

No, the moral victory is running someone who will never win so you get to claim the moral high ground despite having no results to show for it.

Better to have someone that will ally with your goals some of the time, than someone who will always oppose you.
Average means I'm better than half of you.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
February 17 2017 18:21 GMT
#138177
In mildly related science news: New Zealand is apparently its own continent now.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Logo
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States7542 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-17 18:24:39
February 17 2017 18:22 GMT
#138178
On February 18 2017 03:15 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2017 03:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
I feel like we're back to how stupid of a fight this is, let's just give Ellison the job and figure out wtf we're going to do with Democrats like Manchin.

EDIT: I sense I know where this conversation is heading, so I'd like to just get the argument of "well we'd rather him than a Republican" out of the way first.

What are some examples of something in the past 6 years where having Manchin, instead of a Republican, has made a substantive difference (actually changed an outcome)? Because if there aren't any of those, I feel that argument falls apart on it's face.

This is not a compelling argument that there is a progressive candidate that can win that state. That man isn’t going away and neither are the voters who vote for him.

But I support your plan of trying to primary him and any other democrat in the senate you disapprove of. Replace them all with Republicans if we can’t have progressives in there. I am excited to see the results.


This is a terrible attitude. You're taking a snarky dismissive attitude (dare I say elitist?) because someone has differing political ideologies and wants to try to make things better? But rather than address the shortcomings of those ideologies you just dismiss them as not being tactical. It comes off as a cheap way to dismiss any thoughts of change because we always have to focus on 'defeating the enemy'.

On February 18 2017 03:21 LegalLord wrote:
In mildly related science news: New Zealand is apparently its own continent now.



So we finally have the 7 continents we were always told we had? (Well at least 6).
Logo
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23984 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-17 18:28:12
February 17 2017 18:26 GMT
#138179
On February 18 2017 03:20 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2017 03:17 GreenHorizons wrote:
On February 18 2017 03:15 Plansix wrote:
On February 18 2017 03:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
I feel like we're back to how stupid of a fight this is, let's just give Ellison the job and figure out wtf we're going to do with Democrats like Manchin.

EDIT: I sense I know where this conversation is heading, so I'd like to just get the argument of "well we'd rather him than a Republican" out of the way first.

What are some examples of something in the past 6 years where having Manchin, instead of a Republican, has made a substantive difference (actually changed an outcome)? Because if there aren't any of those, I feel that argument falls apart on it's face.

This is not a compelling argument that there is a progressive candidate that can win that state. That man isn’t going away and neither are the voters who vote for him.

But I support your plan of trying to primary him and any other democrat in the senate you disapprove of. Replace them all with Republicans if we can’t have progressives in there. I am excited to see the results.


What's the point in having someone with a D next to their name if they aren't going to make a difference in winning anything for the D they claim? It's stupid moral victories like that, that's left the Democratic party unable to even fight Trump.

No, the moral victory is running someone who will never win so you get to claim the moral high ground despite having no results to show for it.

Better to have someone that will ally with your goals some of the time, than someone who will always oppose you.


Not if you can't show me any evidence having that ally helped change any outcomes. Then at least the blame would go to the right party for their senator's failure to meet their expectations.

Particularly when I can point to him cheering on Trump in "finalizing" a rule that will allow coal mining companies to further pollute the water, approving Sessions, and more in the past, as well as more to come I'm sure. Giving both Trump and that legislation a "bipartisan" stamp of approval it wouldn't have if he or the sitting senator was a Republican.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-02-17 18:30:26
February 17 2017 18:29 GMT
#138180
On February 18 2017 03:22 Logo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2017 03:15 Plansix wrote:
On February 18 2017 03:03 GreenHorizons wrote:
I feel like we're back to how stupid of a fight this is, let's just give Ellison the job and figure out wtf we're going to do with Democrats like Manchin.

EDIT: I sense I know where this conversation is heading, so I'd like to just get the argument of "well we'd rather him than a Republican" out of the way first.

What are some examples of something in the past 6 years where having Manchin, instead of a Republican, has made a substantive difference (actually changed an outcome)? Because if there aren't any of those, I feel that argument falls apart on it's face.

This is not a compelling argument that there is a progressive candidate that can win that state. That man isn’t going away and neither are the voters who vote for him.

But I support your plan of trying to primary him and any other democrat in the senate you disapprove of. Replace them all with Republicans if we can’t have progressives in there. I am excited to see the results.


This is a terrible attitude. You're taking a snarky dismissive attitude (dare I say elitist?) because someone has differing political ideologies and wants to try to make things better? But rather than address the shortcomings of those ideologies you just dismiss them as not being tactical. It comes off as a cheap way to dismiss any thoughts of change because we always have to focus on 'defeating the enemy'.

Show nested quote +
On February 18 2017 03:21 LegalLord wrote:
In mildly related science news: New Zealand is apparently its own continent now.



So we finally have the 7 continents we were always told we had?

I was completely wrong last time around, so I am willing to put my support behind ideas that I think are bad. If people think they can get a progressive senator in WV, I’m all about it. I don’t think it will work, but I was so very wrong last time around that I clearly shouldn’t make the final call. So lets give it a shot.

But I’m not giving up my ability to say “I had a feeling that wasn’t going to work out,” next time around. And GH earns his snarky responses all on his own.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
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