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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
So there was something of a crackdown by the Kremlin in late December, involving people who could in theory have been leakers to Christopher Steele, the British intelligence agent who created the Trump dossier. Multiple people were arrested for treason including the head of Russian intelligence's cybersecurity unit. Also, this guy was allegedly killed. So we know there was a crackdown - we don't know what it was for, but it's in close proximity to the public release of the Trump dossier.
An ex-KGB chief suspected of helping the former MI6 spy Christopher Steele to compile his dossier on Donald Trump may have been murdered by the Kremlin and his death covered up. it has been claimed.
Oleg Erovinkin, a former general in the KGB and its successor the FSB, was found dead in the back of his car in Moscow on Boxing Day in mysterious circumstances.
Erovinkin was a key aide to Igor Sechin, a former deputy prime minister and now head of Rosneft, the state-owned oil company, who is repeatedly named in the dossier.
The Telegraph
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All this is going to make tomorrow protest even spicier. Trump is totally off the rails, I've gotta constantly confirm that this is, indeed, real life.
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Canada8988 Posts
On January 31 2017 12:26 Doodsmack wrote: Nixon's AG resigned in protest. The AG is not supposed to be a rubber stamp for the president - the AG has his/her own mission to uphold the law.
Nixon's AG resigned because Nixon ask him to fired someone who was investigating him, she was fired because she refused to do her job. Jesus I can't believe I am defending Trump right now... I just think that the executive branch should obey the president in their function, if Obama AG would have refuse to defend Obamacare in court because he though it was against the constitution I would have been pretty piss. If government worker start to refuse to do any job that goes against their will it would all fall apart. If it was to much for her (I can understand her) then she should just have quit the job.
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On January 31 2017 12:26 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2017 12:18 xDaunt wrote:On January 31 2017 12:13 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On January 31 2017 12:11 biology]major wrote:On January 31 2017 12:09 Nakajin wrote: I honestly just want information, what are the power/responsibility of the AG exactly? It honestly is a bit strange to me to have someone working for the government as attorney to refuse to defend a executive order because he/she believe it is not constitutional, isn't that the judges work to decide?
I mean someone will have to defend the government in front of the court right? the AG just determines what is lawful and what isn't. Sally went above and beyond by stating whether it was 'just' or 'right'. She should have just resigned, but wanted some publicity points on her departure. She is sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution, not to obey all directions given by the POTUS. Her proclamation was absurdly obtuse in all of its political glory. Trump was right to can her, and I don't think that his language in the termination letter was out of place. You're blind now... it's sad. Perhaps I'm old-fashioned, but I believe that it is unethical for attorneys to publicly shame their clients, even if the client requests that the attorney do something that is actually unethical. The proper thing for her to do was resign.
Edit: I wouldn't be surprised if she gets disciplined by the Bar.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On January 31 2017 12:36 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2017 12:27 LegalLord wrote:On January 31 2017 12:22 zlefin wrote:On January 31 2017 12:19 LegalLord wrote: I have to say that I think Trump did exactly what he should have with this obtuse and utterly politicized interim AG's statement. Good riddance. firing was of course appropriate, what about the wording of the letter though? Betrayed =/= treason, so I don't see the problem here. She did indeed fail to do her job properly. they could have said that she got fired for being unable to do her job/for refusing to do her job. Betrayal kinda makes it sound like she's going to end up in in the gulags... It would probably be a good way to discourage the next defector if they did, though.
That does seem like a pretty damn terrible violation of professional ethics on the part of an attorney, though. The wording should be pretty strong against that.
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Government workers can and should always be able to refuse to do their job (provided they accept the penalty, which she clearly knew was coming), and while going public with why she was refusing was bombastic and breaking with protocol her refusal would have ended up public knowledge anyway and we live in an age where bombastic and breaking with protocol is the new black.
If you break with how the executive should execute orders like this, expect the executive branch to crumble under you. State was just the start.
The truly post-modern thing is that any firing is happening over Twitter.
Edit: Well, they should always be able to personally refuse to do their job anyway.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On January 31 2017 12:43 TheTenthDoc wrote: Government workers can and should always be able to refuse to do their job (provided they accept the penalty, which she clearly knew was coming), and while going public with why she was refusing was bombastic and breaking with protocol her refusal would have ended up public knowledge anyway and we live in an age where bombastic and breaking with protocol is the new black. It looks to me like a pretty severe violation of professional ethics. I'm not a lawyer but at least one lawyer (xDaunt) here seems to agree that it's possibly actionable by the professional organization.
That's not just "a choice she made" but something worse than that. My analogy would be an engineer who allows a safety hazard to develop because it would have been expensive to fix, resulting in a chemical explosion or the like.
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Trump's on a roll btw, just fired ICE's director too.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
yates should be applauded. high valued political actor at a time when this 'resistance' thing is getting warm.
i'm a primacy of politics person when the politics suits me
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On January 31 2017 12:38 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2017 12:26 Doodsmack wrote: Nixon's AG resigned in protest. The AG is not supposed to be a rubber stamp for the president - the AG has his/her own mission to uphold the law. Nixon's AG resigned because Nixon ask him to fired someone who was investigating him, she was fired because she refused to do her job. Jesus I can't believe I am defending Trump right now... I just think that the executive branch should obey the president in their function, if Obama AG would have refuse to defend Obamacare in court because he though it was against the constitution I would have been pretty piss. If government worker start to refuse to do any job that goes against their will it would all fall apart. If it was to much for her (I can understand her) then she should just have quit the job. if she disagrees with it, what she did is what she should be doing. Make the way free for someone who is willing to do the job. Just that in this case instead of resigning she made him fire her. Sure it's an attention grab to go out that way but that's the only thing that's wrong with this imo.
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Canada8988 Posts
On January 31 2017 12:48 GreenHorizons wrote: Trump's on a roll btw, just fired ICE's director too.
How long before he just go f*ck this and just shutdown the entire government?
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On January 31 2017 12:52 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2017 12:48 GreenHorizons wrote: Trump's on a roll btw, just fired ICE's director too. How long before he just go f*ck this and just shutdown the entire government? Arguably this government limbo we're in right now is not unlike a government shutdown.
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On January 31 2017 12:47 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2017 12:43 TheTenthDoc wrote: Government workers can and should always be able to refuse to do their job (provided they accept the penalty, which she clearly knew was coming), and while going public with why she was refusing was bombastic and breaking with protocol her refusal would have ended up public knowledge anyway and we live in an age where bombastic and breaking with protocol is the new black. It looks to me like a pretty severe violation of professional ethics. I'm not a lawyer but at least one lawyer (xDaunt) here seems to agree that it's possibly actionable by the professional organization. That's not just "a choice she made" but something worse than that. My analogy would be an engineer who allows a safety hazard to develop because it would have been expensive to fix, resulting in a chemical explosion or the like.
We can say that, but I don't think we're in a world where professional ethics matter to a lot of people anymore. Not more than doing what they personally believe is right, anyway. That's the nice thing about living in alternate realities, there's always someone to comfort ya.
And if the engineer let the safety hazard develop because of their moral compass, rather than because it's expensive? They might get sacked, but hey. They'll sleep better and won't be short of sympathetic ears. Pharmacists run the risk of doing that all the time (one could argue not dispensing the morning after pill is a breach of professional ethics to me-but not to others).
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Canada8988 Posts
On January 31 2017 12:51 Toadesstern wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2017 12:38 Nakajin wrote:On January 31 2017 12:26 Doodsmack wrote: Nixon's AG resigned in protest. The AG is not supposed to be a rubber stamp for the president - the AG has his/her own mission to uphold the law. Nixon's AG resigned because Nixon ask him to fired someone who was investigating him, she was fired because she refused to do her job. Jesus I can't believe I am defending Trump right now... I just think that the executive branch should obey the president in their function, if Obama AG would have refuse to defend Obamacare in court because he though it was against the constitution I would have been pretty piss. If government worker start to refuse to do any job that goes against their will it would all fall apart. If it was to much for her (I can understand her) then she should just have quit the job. if she disagrees with it what she did is what she should be doing. Make the way free for someone who is willing to do the job. Just that in this case instead of resigning she made him fire her. Sure it's an attention grab to go out that way but that's the only thing that's wrong with this imo.
Ya pretty much. I think non American have different view on what a government employee should be, they are suppose to have no political opinion at all. (it's kind of rude for someone who work at the government to talk about politics in Canada, or at least in Québec it is, even outside of work, and it's mostly forbidden at work) Maybe it's why I was more shock then other with this.
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On January 31 2017 12:47 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2017 12:43 TheTenthDoc wrote: Government workers can and should always be able to refuse to do their job (provided they accept the penalty, which she clearly knew was coming), and while going public with why she was refusing was bombastic and breaking with protocol her refusal would have ended up public knowledge anyway and we live in an age where bombastic and breaking with protocol is the new black. It looks to me like a pretty severe violation of professional ethics. I'm not a lawyer but at least one lawyer (xDaunt) here seems to agree that it's possibly actionable by the professional organization. That's not just "a choice she made" but something worse than that. My analogy would be an engineer who allows a safety hazard to develop because it would have been expensive to fix, resulting in a chemical explosion or the like. I don't think that's a good analogy; since if you think something is unconstitutional, you're bound to refuse ot do it. it seems more akin to a case wherein an engineer is ordered to do something they believe would be a safety hazard, they vocally refuse, then are fired. I wouldn't read too much into xdaunts opinion, while he is a lawyer, he tends to be rather "off" on issues like this, which likely colors his judgment a lot.
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On January 31 2017 12:48 GreenHorizons wrote: Trump's on a roll btw, just fired ICE's director too.
Whaaat? Didn't he get all those BIG LEAGUE unanimous endorsements from them in the primary and election?
+ Show Spoiler +Oh wait he was always lying about that
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On January 31 2017 12:57 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2017 12:47 LegalLord wrote:On January 31 2017 12:43 TheTenthDoc wrote: Government workers can and should always be able to refuse to do their job (provided they accept the penalty, which she clearly knew was coming), and while going public with why she was refusing was bombastic and breaking with protocol her refusal would have ended up public knowledge anyway and we live in an age where bombastic and breaking with protocol is the new black. It looks to me like a pretty severe violation of professional ethics. I'm not a lawyer but at least one lawyer (xDaunt) here seems to agree that it's possibly actionable by the professional organization. That's not just "a choice she made" but something worse than that. My analogy would be an engineer who allows a safety hazard to develop because it would have been expensive to fix, resulting in a chemical explosion or the like. I don't think that's a good analogy; since if you think something is unconstitutional, you're bound to refuse ot do it. it seems more akin to a case wherein an engineer is ordered to do something they believe would be a safety hazard, they vocally refuse, then are fired. I wouldn't read too much into xdaunts opinion, while he is a lawyer, he tends to be rather "off" on issues like this, which likely colors his judgment a lot. If she didn't want to do it she should have refused privately and then resigned. Taking it public is very much in opposition to how a lawyer is supposed to act.
The same way that an engineer's loyalty is to public safety first, an attorney's is to their client. It's not comparable in that direct a way.
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On January 31 2017 12:52 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2017 12:48 GreenHorizons wrote: Trump's on a roll btw, just fired ICE's director too. How long before he just go f*ck this and just shutdown the entire government?
Honestly, I'm hoping he pulls a Scarface (Half Baked) at his first State of the Union.
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On January 31 2017 12:00 biology]major wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2017 11:57 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:So anyone in government who doesn't comply is a betrayer. Any journalist that doesn't write what they like is the enemy, the opposition party, fake news. calm down, we are so far away from facism it would require light speed travel and bending of spacetime to get there. Our institutions are stronger than Trump. Yeah it didn't take any spacetime bending before. It takes a few years spreading misinformation, flaming anyone who opposes you or who you don't like until they aren't seen as equal citizens, controlling the media, and blocking thinkers and scientists from speaking out. They have shown acts and signs of willingness to do all of these. Continue on this path for a few years and then all that is needed is some disaster to grant emergency powers and poof goes democracy.
Yes we are not near a non-democracy so far but that doesn't mean the early signs shouldn't make you suspicious at least. The institutions are strong but Bannon doesn't care for them and will slowly reduce their influence and oversight if he gets his way.
+ Show Spoiler + Text version of the linked article
If there was any question about who is largely in charge of national security behind the scenes at the White House, the answer is becoming increasingly clear: Steve Bannon, the former head of Breitbart News, a far-right media outlet, and now White House advisor.
Even before he was given a formal seat on the National Security Council’s “principals committee” this weekend by President Donald Trump, Bannon was calling the shots and doing so with little to no input from the National Security Council staff, according to an intelligence official who asked not to be named out of fear of retribution.
“He is running a cabal, almost like a shadow NSC,” the official said. He described a work environment where there is little appetite for dissenting opinions, shockingly no paper trail of what’s being discussed and agreed upon at meetings, and no guidance or encouragement so far from above about how the National Security Council staff should be organized.
The intelligence official, who said he was willing to give the Trump administration the benefit of the doubt when it took office, is now deeply troubled by how things are being run.
“They ran all of these executive orders outside of the normal construct,” he said, referring to last week’s flurry of draft executive orders on everything from immigration to the return of CIA “black sites.”
After the controversial draft orders were written, the Trump team was very selective in how they routed them through the internal White House review process, the official said.
Under previous administrations, if someone thought another person or directorate had a stake in the issue at hand or expertise in a subject area, he or she was free to share the papers as long as the recipient had proper clearance.
With that standard in mind, when some officials saw Trump’s draft executive orders, they felt they had broad impact and shared them more widely for staffing and comments.
That did not sit well with Bannon or his staff, according to the official. More stringent guidelines for handling and routing were then instituted, and the National Security Council staff was largely cut out of the process.
By the end of the week, they weren’t the only ones left in the dark. Retired Marine Gen. John Kelly, the secretary of homeland security, was being briefed on the executive order, which called for immediately shutting the borders to nationals from seven largely Muslim countries and all refugees, while Trump was in the midst of signing the measure, the New York Times reported.
The White House did not respond in time to a request for comment.
The lack of a paper trail documenting the decision-making process is also troubling, the intelligence official said. For example, under previous administrations, after a principals or deputies meeting of the National Security Council, the discussion, the final agreement, and the recommendations would be written up in what’s called a “summary of conclusions” — or SOC in government-speak.
“Under [President George W. Bush], the National Security Council was quite strict about recording SOCs,” said Matthew Waxman, a law professor at Columbia University who served on Bush’s National Security Council. “There was often a high level of generality, and there may have been some exceptions, but they were carefully crafted.”
These summaries also provided a record to refer back to, especially important if a debate over an issue came up again, including among agencies that needed to implement the conclusions reached.
If someone thought the discussion was mischaracterized, he or she would call for a correction to be issued to set the record straight, said Loren DeJonge Schulman, who previously served in former President Barack Obama’s administration as a senior advisor to National Security Advisor Susan Rice. Schulman is now a senior fellow at the Center for a New American Security.
“People took the document seriously,” she said.
During the first week of the Trump administration, there were no SOCs, the intelligence official said. In fact, according to him, there is surprisingly very little paper being generated, and whatever paper there is, the NSC staff is not privy to it. He sees this as a deterioration of transparency and accountability.
“It would worry me if written records of these meeting were eliminated, because they contribute to good governance,” Waxman said.
It is equally important that NSC staff be the ones drafting the issue papers going into meetings, too, said Schulman. “The idea is to share with everyone a fair and balanced take on the issue, with the range of viewpoints captured in that document,” she said.
If those papers are now being generated by political staff, she added, it corrupts the whole process.
It could also contribute to Bannon’s centralization of power.
“He who has the pen has the authority to shape outcomes,” the intelligence official said.
Now Bannon’s role in the shadows is being formalized thanks to an executive order signed Saturday by Trump that formally gives Bannon a seat on the National Security Council’s principals committee. The same executive order removed from that group the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the director of national intelligence, and the secretary of energy. Their new diminished role is not unprecedented, but some still find it a troubling piece of this larger picture.
For example, former Defense Secretary Robert Gates — who served under both Bush and Obama — told ABC News this weekend that sidelining the chairman of the Joint Chiefs and the director of national intelligence was a “big mistake.” Every president can benefit from their “perspective, judgment, and experience,” Gates said.
Meanwhile, Bannon’s new role is unprecedented. Under Obama, it wasn’t unheard of for his chief political advisors, John Podesta and David Axelrod, to attend NSC meetings, but they were never guaranteed a seat at the table. Under Bush, the line between national security and domestic political considerations was even clearer. Top aides have said they never saw Karl Rove or “anyone from his shop” in NSC meetings, and that’s because Bush told him explicitly not to attend.
The signal Bush “especially wanted to send to the military is that, ‘The decisions I’m making that involve life and death for the people in uniform will not be tainted by any political decisions,’” former White House Chief of Staff Josh Bolten said last September.
Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) called Bannon’s appointment to the council as a permanent member a “radical departure” from how the decision-making body was organized in the past, adding that he found the change “concerning.”
Inside and outside of government, there are also deep reservations about Bannon’s alignment with the far right and white nationalism, thanks to his previous leadership of Breitbart. One Bannon quote making the rounds this weekend: “Lenin wanted to destroy the state, and that’s my goal, too. I want to bring everything crashing down and destroy all of today’s establishment.”
There are new questions about where retired Army Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn, Trump’s national security advisor, fits into all of this. Internally, it remains unclear what his role is, the intelligence official said. “He has a voice at the table, but he’s overshadowed by Bannon.”
Meanwhile, Tom Bossert, a former Bush national security aide whom Trump picked to serve as the White House’s homeland security advisor, is not “one of Bannon’s,” so he is also on the outside looking in, according to the official. However, in Saturday’s executive order, Bossert was also given a permanent seat on the NSC principals committee.
But there is not a lot of infighting right now, because to have infighting, there needs to be a power struggle, and there is no struggle, the intelligence official said.
However, there is an effort to crack down on leaking. Last week, a draft executive order, which raised the prospect of bringing back CIA “black sites” and reopening the debate on torture, leaked to the press. White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer said it was “not a White House document” and that he had “no idea where it came from.” But according to the New York Times, “the White House had circulated it among National Security Council staff members for review on Tuesday morning.” The Times was even provided with the details of the email chain that showed “the draft order’s movements through the White House bureaucracy.”
“They’re doing a witch hunt now to find out how that got out,” the intelligence official said. “There is zero room for dissenting opinion.”
Trump did say publicly that he would defer to Defense Secretary James Mattis for now on the question of torture, which would suggest that disagreement is OK. But while publicly the president is allowing for different opinions, there is unhappiness about what is permitted behind the scenes, according to the official. If you take a stand against the White House, you might find yourself frozen out of future meetings, he said.
The NSC staff is mostly in shock after last week, the intelligence official said. For now, no one knows what each day will bring. There is no organizational chart yet for the NSC, meaning there has been no internal guidance yet about which portfolios still exist and to whom they report, the official said. The Washington Post reported Sunday on some of the changes being made, including that “some offices such as cyber have been expanded, while others have been collapsed.” The directorates on Europe and Russia, which were separate under Obama, have now been combined.
It’s possible that the current chaos and lack of bureaucratic process is a result of the Trump administration still going through growing pains and figuring out how best to run things. But former NSC officials said an organizational chart for the NSC is the kind of thing you have in place weeks before taking office.
Only time will tell if the way things are currently being done is deliberate or part of a new administration learning on the job how best to provide advice to the president and communicate with the relevant agencies.
Trump’s management style is known to be highly unstructured, if not chaotic. The Post reported in May that he was running his presidential campaign like he ran his business — “fond of promoting rivalries among subordinates, wary of delegating major decisions, scornful of convention and fiercely insistent on a culture of loyalty around him.”
“While this may have worked for his company, it is certainly not a way to run a country,” the official said.
This article is cross-posted with Just Security.
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On January 31 2017 13:00 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2017 12:57 zlefin wrote:On January 31 2017 12:47 LegalLord wrote:On January 31 2017 12:43 TheTenthDoc wrote: Government workers can and should always be able to refuse to do their job (provided they accept the penalty, which she clearly knew was coming), and while going public with why she was refusing was bombastic and breaking with protocol her refusal would have ended up public knowledge anyway and we live in an age where bombastic and breaking with protocol is the new black. It looks to me like a pretty severe violation of professional ethics. I'm not a lawyer but at least one lawyer (xDaunt) here seems to agree that it's possibly actionable by the professional organization. That's not just "a choice she made" but something worse than that. My analogy would be an engineer who allows a safety hazard to develop because it would have been expensive to fix, resulting in a chemical explosion or the like. I don't think that's a good analogy; since if you think something is unconstitutional, you're bound to refuse ot do it. it seems more akin to a case wherein an engineer is ordered to do something they believe would be a safety hazard, they vocally refuse, then are fired. I wouldn't read too much into xdaunts opinion, while he is a lawyer, he tends to be rather "off" on issues like this, which likely colors his judgment a lot. If she didn't want to do it she should have refused privately and then resigned. Taking it public is very much in opposition to how a lawyer is supposed to act. not sure the rules are quite teh same in this case. the lawyer works for the united states itself, not the president. the law is quite clear on that iirc. as such, informing the united states of the reasons isn't really improper i'd say. that said it could've been done somewhat better.
of course when the president himself does things poorly, it's a bit hard to hold lower level staff to a highr standard than the president.
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