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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 6551

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-11 22:53:17
January 11 2017 22:51 GMT
#131001
fivethirtyeight seems to have a good summary of the problem.


One of the most interesting moments in Donald Trump’s news conference Wednesday came when Trump wasn’t even on the podium: Sheri Dillon, one of Trump’s lawyers, spent several minutes explaining why Trump couldn’t realistically put his assets in a blind trust, as many ethics watchdogs have demanded.

Dillon’s argument was complex, and she may very well be right. But that doesn’t mean concerns about Trump’s conflicts of interest are invalid.

The words “blind trust” have been thrown around a lot in recent weeks, but it’s worth explaining what that phrase really means. True blind trusts aim to shield politicians or other public figures from conflicts of interest (real or perceived) by ensuring that they have no control over their assets, or even know what those assets are.

A typical case works like this: Hypothetical Sen. Jane Johnson owns $2 million in stock in the tech company where she used to be an executive and an additional $3 million in stocks, bonds and other investments. She transfers her assets into a blind trust, overseen by an independent trustee. That trustee then sells the existing holdings (either all at once or over time) so that when Johnson has to vote on a bill affecting the tech industry — or even affecting her old company — she doesn’t know whether that vote could affect her personal finances.

But Trump’s situation is far from typical. Most of his wealth isn’t held in stocks or bonds that can be easily sold; it’s in a company that he owns and operates, it’s in buildings and golf courses around the world, and it’s in his personal brand (and the licensing deals based on it). Simply transferring his assets to a blind trust wouldn’t accomplish much as long as the company remained in business. “President Trump can’t un-know he owns Trump Tower,” Dillon said Wednesday.

To put his assets in a true blind trust, Trump would need to liquidate his assets by selling the company and its holdings, stripping his name off his hotels and resorts, and canceling his licensing deals. Dillon on Wednesday argued that such a plan would be impractical if not impossible. Some of her reasons boiled down to one: It would cost Trump a lot of money. She argued, for example, that if Trump sold his assets without retaining the rights to his brand, he would “greatly diminish the value of the assets and create a fire sale.” In other words, she said, the assets would be worth far less without Trump’s name on them.

But there are practical hurdles to a true blind trust even if you aren’t worried about Trump’s personal net worth. The process of selling his assets would take time, perhaps years. And because the sales would undoubtedly make headlines, Trump could easily keep track of what he still owned and what he didn’t, meaning that even then the trust wouldn’t be truly “blind.” (It would also create the strange situation of having a business named after the president of the United States but not controlled by him.)



https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/no-one-has-a-good-plan-to-get-rid-of-trumps-conflicts-including-trump/
"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21668 Posts
January 11 2017 22:54 GMT
#131002
On January 12 2017 07:42 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2017 07:41 Gorsameth wrote:
On January 12 2017 07:37 LegalLord wrote:
On January 12 2017 07:36 plasmidghost wrote:
On January 12 2017 07:24 Nevuk wrote:






Thought this was interesting. And actually worth talking about, as it isn't just a rehash of old "fake news" arguments.

Walter Schaub Jr., the director of Office of Government Ethics (OGE) is currently speaking at the Brookings Institution following the press conference held earlier today by President-elect Donald Trump in which he announced his conflict-of-interest plan. Schaub is not buying it.

In a series of tweets, Eric Lipton of The New York Times details Schaub’s take on Trump’s current plan

Although several experts have noted that Trump’s business interests may create substantial conflict-of-interest issues for the President-elect and violate Constitution’s Emoluments Clause, Trump’s legal team has stated that he is going to voluntarily donate all profits from foreign government payments made to his hotels to the United States Treasury and thus put to bed any concerns over this issue.

As Schaub noted, liquidating some of his assets may not be too high a price in order to constitutionally accept his position as President.

Schuab, who was appointed by President Barack Obama, is serving a five-year term which expires in 2018. The Office of Government Ethics is an agency tasked with directing policies on how to prevent conflicts of interest in the executive branch.

http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/office-of-government-ethics-head-says-trump-conflict-of-interest-plan-fails/

Is there something stopping Trump from completely selling anything he owns? I feel like if he were to put it in a trust where he manages it after his presidency, it should still be considered a conflict of interest since he still has significant interest in it

You ever sold a multi-billion dollar company before?

He should have thought of that before he decided to run for President.

Thought about the possibility that some people might be upset about him having substantial assets in case he happens to become president?

Thought about general standards concerning conflict of interest?
Thought about how as a businessmen it would effect his business?

Yes, this seems like a completely normal thing to think about when you considering running for any form of public office. let alone the Presidency.

Now, I understand Trumps ego is big enough to think he can avoid it, or deluded enough to think it would not be brought up but that doesn't change the situation.

And the fact you call it "some people" is hilarious. The entire US government is full of rules concerning conflict of interest. The Presidency should be no different.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 11 2017 23:00 GMT
#131003
Rex Tillerson, President-elect Donald Trump’s pick for secretary of state, hinted on Wednesday that he would support keeping the United States in the historic Paris climate agreement.

Asked during his Senate confirmation hearing whether the U.S. should maintain its commitments in the accord, the former Exxon Mobil Corp. chief executive said the 180-country deal allows the country to influence the necessary “global response” to climate change.

“It’s important that the United States maintain its seat at the table with the conversations around how to deal with the threats of climate change,” he said.

The question came nearly 90 minutes into Tillerson’s confirmation hearing, during which his close ties to Russian President Vladimir Putin prompted intense scrutiny. Protesters interrupted the proceedings at least three times by holding up signs with the words “Reject Rexx” written in the same font as Exxon Mobil’s logo and shouting “oil is dead” and “please don’t put Exxon in charge of the State Department.”

Later in the hearing, Tillerson vowed to have a “fulsome review” of all climate policies around the world, including U.S. payments to the United Nations-administered Green Climate Fund to help poorer countries build up clean energy infrastructure. The fund has been a major tool for influencing less-developed countries, which depend on heavily polluting fuels like coal to grow their economies, to agree to cut back on emissions.

“Whatever is the most efficient, effective way to deliver electricity to these areas that don’t have it should be the American choice,” he said, suggesting the country could divert money to infrastructure projects that use cheaper fossil fuels instead. “That is the wisest use of American dollars.”

Tillerson hinted that he may renege on long-term U.S. commitments in the Paris agreement if the Trump administration deemed them to disadvantage the country economically.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
January 11 2017 23:02 GMT
#131004
The most notable challenge I saw was just Rubio being obtuse about trying to get Tillerson to say that Putin is a war criminal. Everyone else seemed to be pretty reasonable and they seem like they will probably get on board with his confirmation.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-12 10:09:46
January 11 2017 23:05 GMT
#131005
On January 12 2017 07:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2017 07:39 Doodsmack wrote:
On January 12 2017 07:32 GreenHorizons wrote:
On January 12 2017 07:25 kwizach wrote:
On January 12 2017 07:02 Sermokala wrote:
On January 12 2017 06:39 kwizach wrote:
On January 12 2017 06:30 Sermokala wrote:
On January 12 2017 06:22 kwizach wrote:
On January 12 2017 06:15 xDaunt wrote:
On January 12 2017 06:07 Gorsameth wrote:
[quote]
So as said, you are misusing a definition and then when confronted on it you say you don't want to argue semantics...

That's one way to try and avoid losing an argument I guess.

No, I'm not avoiding the argument at all. The problem is that my opponents don't know how to argue the issue. Given that I'm feeling generous, let me provide a template for everyone to use that provides the basic structure for countering the label:

"X is not fake news, because [discuss in detail the propriety of the journalistic methods employed]."

That wasn't hard was it? Rotely arguing that "X is not fake news because you're misusing the term of fake news" is asinine, retarded, and a complete waste of everyone's time.

So to everyone who objects to my use of the term: stop whining and start making the proper argument.

Let's put aside for a second the fact that since you're the one who came up with the claim that the CNN article was an example of "fake news", the burden of proof to support your claim lies on you -- I'll respond to your query: the CNN article was not an example of fake news because it made no false claims.

Your turn. Fake news present false claims as true, and is designed to deceive readers. I'm willing to put aside the matter of intent here to make your job even easier. Where does the CNN article present false claims as true?

The burden of proof lies with the accuser not the accused. He made a statement that what CNN posted was fake news. You accused him of misusing that word and that it wasn't fake news. Its up to you to say the difference between whats fake news and what CNN posted is.

The burden of proof lies with the one making the claim. xDaunt claimed the CNN article was fake news. Saying that the people who dispute his assessment have to provide evidence that the article isn't fake news before he substantiate his own claim is a clear example of shifting the burden of proof. In any case, I answered his query.

On January 12 2017 06:30 Sermokala wrote:
The idea that fake can only mean not false is asinine and semantics. You don't know if the claims made are false or true and neither does anyone else here. Xdaunt is saying fake is the opposite of real. By that simple definition what hes saying what CNN posted was fake news because it wasn't news. It was a report based on unamed sources with hersay and rumor. The story has no accountable founding for the accusations its making. Its creating news based on accusations that can't be proven true or false.

Fake news are false claims/information designed to deceive readers. Relying on unnamed sources does not transform an article into fake news. Reporting on the real existence of documents which may or may not contain true information is not fake news. Feel free to use other labels for that, but don't subvert the term "fake news".

He did make a claim and provide proof to why he says that its fake. You responded that he was useing the term "fake news" wrong. That means that the argument being discussed is what "fake news" is. Your definition of what fake news is doesn't work because you don't know if the news we're arguing about is false or true and you can't argue either way on that. Relying on unnamed sources doesn't translate an article into fake news but when you make an accusation based on that unnamed source it becomes fake news. Reporting on the existence of the documents isn't what CNN did. what CNN did was report on the content of the documents and what the briefing they were used for inferred.

If anyone is playing a shell game with the burden of proof about if its fake news or not its you.

It's not my definition. It's how it's been widely understood before it started getting subverted and expanded by various parties more interested in discrediting others than in accurately describing what they were labeling. It's also what xDaunt himself recognized as the "true" definition of the label. The "case" xDaunt made to describe CNN's report as fake news did not correspond to the kind of evidence required to label it as fake news under the definition of the label he himself recognized as the true one (and he even hardly substantiated his claim using the expanded definition).

Also, to reply to your comments on the CNN article, no, CNN did not "make an accusation [about Trump] based on that unnamed source". What CNN did is report on what they were told by U.S. officials about the documents, on their existence and on the fact that the allegations they contain were unverified. They did not make claims on the veracity of the contents of the documents or report on the details of those memos, or accuse Trump of anything.

On January 12 2017 07:11 xDaunt wrote:
On January 12 2017 07:05 kwizach wrote:
On January 12 2017 06:56 xDaunt wrote:
On January 12 2017 06:47 kwizach wrote:
On January 12 2017 06:35 xDaunt wrote:
On January 12 2017 06:22 kwizach wrote:
[quote]
Let's put aside for a second the fact that since you're the one who came up with the claim that the CNN article was an example of "fake news", the burden of proof lies on you -- I'll respond to your query: the CNN article was not an example of fake news because it made no false claims.

Your turn. Fake news present false claims as true, and are designed to deceive readers. I'm willing to put aside the matter of intent here to make your job even easier. Where does the CNN article present false claims as true?

Sorry, dude. You're arguing with a lawyer who knows semantics arguments when he sees them. I've made it very clear that fake news is more than just making false factual claims in a report, yet here you are once again trying to box me in with semantics. Not interested.

I know you've pushed that expansion of the definition -- exactly as I said, you, Breitbart and others are subverting the term in order to use it against those you see as your media opponents. Saying you're not interested in discussing semantics when people point out that the definition you're using is not how fake news are understood is a complete cop-out -- it's like calling Obama a communist and then declaring you're not interested in semantics when people point out the definition of the term hardly applies to him.


Please. It's not like I have called the CNN story "fake news" without any further explanation of why it's fake news. My reasoning should be very clear. In short, CNN published a story with all of the journalistic integrity of a gossip column to push and promote a defamatory narrative against Trump. And now it looks like CNN's story may have actual factual inaccuracies in it such that it qualifies as "fake news" under your definition.

Look, I get that you're upset at the bludgeoning that your side is receiving from the Right's use of "fake news," but I really am not interested in arguing semantics. Use whatever terminology you want, but I'm sticking with mine.

You realize you're not saying anything I haven't already addressed, right? Again, fake news are defined as reports with fabricated false claims/information that are presented as true in order to deceive readers. If you want to subvert the definition just like Breitbart is doing in order to attack the media that don't push pro-Trump narratives, good for you, but don't hide between "semantics" excuses when others point out that you're not using the original definition of the word.

This is why no one likes to argue with you. I've told you to stay away from the semantics argument countless times now, yet you keep coming back to it. If you think that CNN's report was made according to good journalistic practices, then feel free to explain to why. I think that you're avoiding the real merits here because you know that it's a loser of an issue for you.

I know you've told me you don't want to discuss semantics. I explained why that's a cop-out to dodge your problematic use of the word "fake news", just like it would be a cop-out for someone to say they're uninterested in discussing semantics once people object to that person's use of "communist" to describe Obama. If you have nothing else to add on the use of the label "fake news", which is what I was addressing, you can stop replying to me.


But CNN did make a false claim about Trump. It's in their headline, which you don't seem to be acknowledging.


That's only if you believe NBC over CNN right now. It seems this discussion is a mess unless we get more info.


Which was the (at least my) point from the start. One of them has to be pushing factually incorrect information with the disclaimer that someone else said it and people like Kwiz accept that as not "fake news" because they are just amplifying what is being reported by NBC as not true.

See, Kwiz thinks this:

Intel chiefs presented Trump with claims of Russian efforts to compromise him

can be factually wrong, yet they didn't engage in "fake news"

So I'm guessing that when you write "But CNN did make a false claim about Trump", and I ask you "How do you know it's a false claim?", the answer is that you don't actually know if it's a false claim or not. I'm glad we got that out of the way.

Secondly, if you go back to my post, you can see that both NBC and CNN accounts can actually be true. The people doing the briefing could have presented Trump with documents containing information on the allegations against him (what CNN is saying) without actually discussing them orally or leaving the documents with the Trump team (what NBC is saying).

Thirdly, even if CNN is actually wrong and Trump was never presented with anything containing information on the allegations in the memos, that still wouldn't make the CNN report "fake news", because CNN didn't fabricate the information about Trump being presented with those documents, and it didn't intend to deceive its readers. They received the information about the briefings on the documents from US officials and cross-checked it (something NBC doesn't seem to have done, by the way, since they're only quoting one official for the information in their story) in order to reach a high degree of confidence in its veracity. If the information they've received from these officials turns out to be false or inaccurate, they may well be to blame for not vetting it effectively enough. Yet "wrong" is not the same as "fake", and if you fail to see the difference between CNN being possibly deceived/misled by multiple U.S. officials and CNN fabricating false claims out of thin air in order to deceive its audience, I can't help you.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France7888 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-11 23:07:38
January 11 2017 23:07 GMT
#131006
On January 12 2017 07:51 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
fivethirtyeight seems to have a good summary of the problem.


Show nested quote +
One of the most interesting moments in Donald Trump’s news conference Wednesday came when Trump wasn’t even on the podium: Sheri Dillon, one of Trump’s lawyers, spent several minutes explaining why Trump couldn’t realistically put his assets in a blind trust, as many ethics watchdogs have demanded.

Dillon’s argument was complex, and she may very well be right. But that doesn’t mean concerns about Trump’s conflicts of interest are invalid.

The words “blind trust” have been thrown around a lot in recent weeks, but it’s worth explaining what that phrase really means. True blind trusts aim to shield politicians or other public figures from conflicts of interest (real or perceived) by ensuring that they have no control over their assets, or even know what those assets are.

A typical case works like this: Hypothetical Sen. Jane Johnson owns $2 million in stock in the tech company where she used to be an executive and an additional $3 million in stocks, bonds and other investments. She transfers her assets into a blind trust, overseen by an independent trustee. That trustee then sells the existing holdings (either all at once or over time) so that when Johnson has to vote on a bill affecting the tech industry — or even affecting her old company — she doesn’t know whether that vote could affect her personal finances.

But Trump’s situation is far from typical. Most of his wealth isn’t held in stocks or bonds that can be easily sold; it’s in a company that he owns and operates, it’s in buildings and golf courses around the world, and it’s in his personal brand (and the licensing deals based on it). Simply transferring his assets to a blind trust wouldn’t accomplish much as long as the company remained in business. “President Trump can’t un-know he owns Trump Tower,” Dillon said Wednesday.

To put his assets in a true blind trust, Trump would need to liquidate his assets by selling the company and its holdings, stripping his name off his hotels and resorts, and canceling his licensing deals. Dillon on Wednesday argued that such a plan would be impractical if not impossible. Some of her reasons boiled down to one: It would cost Trump a lot of money. She argued, for example, that if Trump sold his assets without retaining the rights to his brand, he would “greatly diminish the value of the assets and create a fire sale.” In other words, she said, the assets would be worth far less without Trump’s name on them.

But there are practical hurdles to a true blind trust even if you aren’t worried about Trump’s personal net worth. The process of selling his assets would take time, perhaps years. And because the sales would undoubtedly make headlines, Trump could easily keep track of what he still owned and what he didn’t, meaning that even then the trust wouldn’t be truly “blind.” (It would also create the strange situation of having a business named after the president of the United States but not controlled by him.)



https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/no-one-has-a-good-plan-to-get-rid-of-trumps-conflicts-including-trump/

That being said, another really simple solution to prevent conflict of interest is simply not to elect a billionaire or anyone obscenely rich, and...

Oh wait.

I'm jocking but I'm serious. The idea that having made a shitton of money qualifies you for office is typically american and bat shit crazy. It's not limited to Trump, but i always cringe when i hear people complain about the porosity between politics and bug money. Hey, what about not voting for millionaires and even less for billionaires if you don't want your country to be a ploutocracy?
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
January 11 2017 23:16 GMT
#131007
President-elect Donald Trump acknowledged for the first time Wednesday that he believes Russian operatives hacked the Democratic Party during the election, but he continued to dispute intelligence reports that Moscow acted to help him win.

“I think it was Russia,” Trump said at a news conference in New York when asked who was responsible for the public leaks of Democratic emails during the campaign.


Source

The fact that he hasn't called for any retaliation is puzzling. All he has said is that we should defend against cyber attacks better.
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
January 11 2017 23:19 GMT
#131008
On January 12 2017 08:02 LegalLord wrote:
The most notable challenge I saw was just Rubio being obtuse about trying to get Tillerson to say that Putin is a war criminal. Everyone else seemed to be pretty reasonable and they seem like they will probably get on board with his confirmation.


How was he being obtuse, and how is putin not a war criminal given what we know? Please explain.
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-11 23:23:38
January 11 2017 23:23 GMT
#131009
Well, this was timely (in the context of this thread):

‘You Just Published Fake News’: Chuck Todd Hammers Buzzfeed Editor-in-Chief Over Trump/Russia Dossier

Following the much-criticized publication by Buzzfeed of a dossier showing unverified claims about President-elect Donald Trump being compromised by Russia, MSNBC host Chuck Todd grilled the site’s Editor-in-Chief over his decision to publish the document.

After Ben Smith justified the publication by noting that high level government officials had seen it, saying that he felt it needed to be shared with readers, Todd hit back.

“You talk about context and you talk about putting responsibility on the readers,” the MTP Daily host stated. “But at the same time, don’t you have responsibility of not spreading false information? Are you knowingly spreading false information?”

Smith followed that up by invoking fake news, which led Todd to fire back.

“I know this was not your intent,” the MSNBC personality said. “I’ve known you a long time, but you just published fake news.”

Smith responded that it was unfair and that he thinks “people love to throw the term fake news around.”

Watch how the rest of the interview went above, via MSNBC.


http://www.mediaite.com/online/you-just-published-fake-news-chuck-todd-hammers-buzzfeed-editor-in-chief-over-trumprussia-dossier/

Wish I could just embed the video, not sure how to do that though.
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5583 Posts
January 11 2017 23:27 GMT
#131010
On January 12 2017 08:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2017 07:51 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
fivethirtyeight seems to have a good summary of the problem.


One of the most interesting moments in Donald Trump’s news conference Wednesday came when Trump wasn’t even on the podium: Sheri Dillon, one of Trump’s lawyers, spent several minutes explaining why Trump couldn’t realistically put his assets in a blind trust, as many ethics watchdogs have demanded.

Dillon’s argument was complex, and she may very well be right. But that doesn’t mean concerns about Trump’s conflicts of interest are invalid.

The words “blind trust” have been thrown around a lot in recent weeks, but it’s worth explaining what that phrase really means. True blind trusts aim to shield politicians or other public figures from conflicts of interest (real or perceived) by ensuring that they have no control over their assets, or even know what those assets are.

A typical case works like this: Hypothetical Sen. Jane Johnson owns $2 million in stock in the tech company where she used to be an executive and an additional $3 million in stocks, bonds and other investments. She transfers her assets into a blind trust, overseen by an independent trustee. That trustee then sells the existing holdings (either all at once or over time) so that when Johnson has to vote on a bill affecting the tech industry — or even affecting her old company — she doesn’t know whether that vote could affect her personal finances.

But Trump’s situation is far from typical. Most of his wealth isn’t held in stocks or bonds that can be easily sold; it’s in a company that he owns and operates, it’s in buildings and golf courses around the world, and it’s in his personal brand (and the licensing deals based on it). Simply transferring his assets to a blind trust wouldn’t accomplish much as long as the company remained in business. “President Trump can’t un-know he owns Trump Tower,” Dillon said Wednesday.

To put his assets in a true blind trust, Trump would need to liquidate his assets by selling the company and its holdings, stripping his name off his hotels and resorts, and canceling his licensing deals. Dillon on Wednesday argued that such a plan would be impractical if not impossible. Some of her reasons boiled down to one: It would cost Trump a lot of money. She argued, for example, that if Trump sold his assets without retaining the rights to his brand, he would “greatly diminish the value of the assets and create a fire sale.” In other words, she said, the assets would be worth far less without Trump’s name on them.

But there are practical hurdles to a true blind trust even if you aren’t worried about Trump’s personal net worth. The process of selling his assets would take time, perhaps years. And because the sales would undoubtedly make headlines, Trump could easily keep track of what he still owned and what he didn’t, meaning that even then the trust wouldn’t be truly “blind.” (It would also create the strange situation of having a business named after the president of the United States but not controlled by him.)



https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/no-one-has-a-good-plan-to-get-rid-of-trumps-conflicts-including-trump/

That being said, another really simple solution to prevent conflict of interest is simply not to elect a billionaire or anyone obscenely rich, and...

Oh wait.

I'm jocking but I'm serious. The idea that having made a shitton of money qualifies you for office is typically american and bat shit crazy. It's not limited to Trump, but i always cringe when i hear people complain about the porosity between politics and bug money. Hey, what about not voting for millionaires and even less for billionaires if you don't want your country to be a ploutocracy?

Your US bashing aside, where there should be a difference is that wealth per se isn't a bad thing if you drop the revolutionary undertones. What we don't want is people using public office to enrich themselves and entangling policy with their own greed. There's an argument to be made that people who are independently comfortable are if anything in a position to be less susceptible to that.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
January 11 2017 23:31 GMT
#131011
On January 12 2017 08:27 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2017 08:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On January 12 2017 07:51 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
fivethirtyeight seems to have a good summary of the problem.


One of the most interesting moments in Donald Trump’s news conference Wednesday came when Trump wasn’t even on the podium: Sheri Dillon, one of Trump’s lawyers, spent several minutes explaining why Trump couldn’t realistically put his assets in a blind trust, as many ethics watchdogs have demanded.

Dillon’s argument was complex, and she may very well be right. But that doesn’t mean concerns about Trump’s conflicts of interest are invalid.

The words “blind trust” have been thrown around a lot in recent weeks, but it’s worth explaining what that phrase really means. True blind trusts aim to shield politicians or other public figures from conflicts of interest (real or perceived) by ensuring that they have no control over their assets, or even know what those assets are.

A typical case works like this: Hypothetical Sen. Jane Johnson owns $2 million in stock in the tech company where she used to be an executive and an additional $3 million in stocks, bonds and other investments. She transfers her assets into a blind trust, overseen by an independent trustee. That trustee then sells the existing holdings (either all at once or over time) so that when Johnson has to vote on a bill affecting the tech industry — or even affecting her old company — she doesn’t know whether that vote could affect her personal finances.

But Trump’s situation is far from typical. Most of his wealth isn’t held in stocks or bonds that can be easily sold; it’s in a company that he owns and operates, it’s in buildings and golf courses around the world, and it’s in his personal brand (and the licensing deals based on it). Simply transferring his assets to a blind trust wouldn’t accomplish much as long as the company remained in business. “President Trump can’t un-know he owns Trump Tower,” Dillon said Wednesday.

To put his assets in a true blind trust, Trump would need to liquidate his assets by selling the company and its holdings, stripping his name off his hotels and resorts, and canceling his licensing deals. Dillon on Wednesday argued that such a plan would be impractical if not impossible. Some of her reasons boiled down to one: It would cost Trump a lot of money. She argued, for example, that if Trump sold his assets without retaining the rights to his brand, he would “greatly diminish the value of the assets and create a fire sale.” In other words, she said, the assets would be worth far less without Trump’s name on them.

But there are practical hurdles to a true blind trust even if you aren’t worried about Trump’s personal net worth. The process of selling his assets would take time, perhaps years. And because the sales would undoubtedly make headlines, Trump could easily keep track of what he still owned and what he didn’t, meaning that even then the trust wouldn’t be truly “blind.” (It would also create the strange situation of having a business named after the president of the United States but not controlled by him.)



https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/no-one-has-a-good-plan-to-get-rid-of-trumps-conflicts-including-trump/

That being said, another really simple solution to prevent conflict of interest is simply not to elect a billionaire or anyone obscenely rich, and...

Oh wait.

I'm jocking but I'm serious. The idea that having made a shitton of money qualifies you for office is typically american and bat shit crazy. It's not limited to Trump, but i always cringe when i hear people complain about the porosity between politics and bug money. Hey, what about not voting for millionaires and even less for billionaires if you don't want your country to be a ploutocracy?

Your US bashing aside, where there should be a difference is that wealth per se isn't a bad thing if you drop the revolutionary undertones. What we don't want is people using public office to enrich themselves and entangling policy with their own greed. There's an argument to be made that people who are independently comfortable are if anything in a position to be less susceptible to that.


I wonder if there's been any careful analysis of the effect of prior wealth on odds of corruption.
one could certainly make the argument that they'd be less susceptible, just as one could make the argument they'd be more susceptible.
in general, on social things like this, reality often doesn't turn out as people would expect it too, so it's better to do careful research.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
January 11 2017 23:33 GMT
#131012
The only unique thing about Trump's situation I see is simply that he is really wealthy. Nothing about his conduct suggests any particularly troubling concerns over conflicts of interest.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Karis Vas Ryaar
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
United States4396 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-11 23:37:17
January 11 2017 23:33 GMT
#131013
On January 12 2017 08:31 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2017 08:27 oBlade wrote:
On January 12 2017 08:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On January 12 2017 07:51 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
fivethirtyeight seems to have a good summary of the problem.


One of the most interesting moments in Donald Trump’s news conference Wednesday came when Trump wasn’t even on the podium: Sheri Dillon, one of Trump’s lawyers, spent several minutes explaining why Trump couldn’t realistically put his assets in a blind trust, as many ethics watchdogs have demanded.

Dillon’s argument was complex, and she may very well be right. But that doesn’t mean concerns about Trump’s conflicts of interest are invalid.

The words “blind trust” have been thrown around a lot in recent weeks, but it’s worth explaining what that phrase really means. True blind trusts aim to shield politicians or other public figures from conflicts of interest (real or perceived) by ensuring that they have no control over their assets, or even know what those assets are.

A typical case works like this: Hypothetical Sen. Jane Johnson owns $2 million in stock in the tech company where she used to be an executive and an additional $3 million in stocks, bonds and other investments. She transfers her assets into a blind trust, overseen by an independent trustee. That trustee then sells the existing holdings (either all at once or over time) so that when Johnson has to vote on a bill affecting the tech industry — or even affecting her old company — she doesn’t know whether that vote could affect her personal finances.

But Trump’s situation is far from typical. Most of his wealth isn’t held in stocks or bonds that can be easily sold; it’s in a company that he owns and operates, it’s in buildings and golf courses around the world, and it’s in his personal brand (and the licensing deals based on it). Simply transferring his assets to a blind trust wouldn’t accomplish much as long as the company remained in business. “President Trump can’t un-know he owns Trump Tower,” Dillon said Wednesday.

To put his assets in a true blind trust, Trump would need to liquidate his assets by selling the company and its holdings, stripping his name off his hotels and resorts, and canceling his licensing deals. Dillon on Wednesday argued that such a plan would be impractical if not impossible. Some of her reasons boiled down to one: It would cost Trump a lot of money. She argued, for example, that if Trump sold his assets without retaining the rights to his brand, he would “greatly diminish the value of the assets and create a fire sale.” In other words, she said, the assets would be worth far less without Trump’s name on them.

But there are practical hurdles to a true blind trust even if you aren’t worried about Trump’s personal net worth. The process of selling his assets would take time, perhaps years. And because the sales would undoubtedly make headlines, Trump could easily keep track of what he still owned and what he didn’t, meaning that even then the trust wouldn’t be truly “blind.” (It would also create the strange situation of having a business named after the president of the United States but not controlled by him.)



https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/no-one-has-a-good-plan-to-get-rid-of-trumps-conflicts-including-trump/

That being said, another really simple solution to prevent conflict of interest is simply not to elect a billionaire or anyone obscenely rich, and...

Oh wait.

I'm jocking but I'm serious. The idea that having made a shitton of money qualifies you for office is typically american and bat shit crazy. It's not limited to Trump, but i always cringe when i hear people complain about the porosity between politics and bug money. Hey, what about not voting for millionaires and even less for billionaires if you don't want your country to be a ploutocracy?

Your US bashing aside, where there should be a difference is that wealth per se isn't a bad thing if you drop the revolutionary undertones. What we don't want is people using public office to enrich themselves and entangling policy with their own greed. There's an argument to be made that people who are independently comfortable are if anything in a position to be less susceptible to that.


I wonder if there's been any careful analysis of the effect of prior wealth on odds of corruption.
one could certainly make the argument that they'd be less susceptible, just as one could make the argument they'd be more susceptible.
in general, on social things like this, reality often doesn't turn out as people would expect it too, so it's better to do careful research.


fivethrityeight had an article basically on that and the psychology of it. don't think they mention specifically on corrolation between wealth and corruptability but its a good read

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/everyone-is-vulnerable-to-conflicts-of-interest-including-donald-trump/

“The president can’t have a conflict of interest,” Donald Trump told The New York Times in November. He appears to have meant that in the legal sense — the president isn’t bound by the same conflict-of-interest laws that loom over other executive branch officials and employees.1
But that doesn’t mean the president’s interests can’t be in conflict. When he takes office Jan. 20, Trump will be tangled in a wide array of situations in which his personal connections and business coffers are pulling him in one direction while the interests of the American presidency and people pull him in another. For example, Trump is the president of a vineyard in Virginia that’s requesting foreign worker visas from the government he’ll soon lead. He’s also involved in an ongoing business partnership with the Philippines’ diplomatic trade envoy — a relationship that could predispose Trump to accepting deals that are more favorable to that country than he otherwise might. Once he’s in office, he will appoint some members of the labor board that could hear disputes related to his hotels.

Neither Trump nor his transition team replied to interview requests for this article, but his comments to the Times suggest that he genuinely believes he can be objective and put the country first, despite financial and social pressures to do otherwise.

Unfortunately, science says he’s probably wrong.

Numerous studies have shown how conflicts of interest affect human behavior, both in the real world and in laboratory settings. Most of these have been conducted in the context of the scientific and medical professions. For instance, we know pharmaceutical companies don’t have to pony up for luxurious vacations or hand over bags of unmarked bills in order to change doctors’ prescribing habits. Even a $20 meal — a high-end cheeseburger or a cheap steak — is associated with an increased rate of prescribing a particular treatment, according to a study published in August.

Although politicians have largely been left out of this research, experts say the studies of doctors and scientists can be extrapolated to politicians like Trump. And, they say, the research shows that conflicts of interest built on both finances and friendships are likely to affect decisions that Trump will face as president, even if he doesn’t believe they will, and even if he is no more aware of their impact than your doctor is aware of the link between Ruth’s Chris and Crestor.



"I'm not agreeing with a lot of Virus's decisions but they are working" Tasteless. Ipl4 Losers Bracket Virus 2-1 Maru
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-11 23:41:59
January 11 2017 23:41 GMT
#131014
On January 12 2017 08:33 LegalLord wrote:
The only unique thing about Trump's situation I see is simply that he is really wealthy. Nothing about his conduct suggests any particularly troubling concerns over conflicts of interest.

There have been plenty of examples of potential conflicts of interest put forward since his election, including several problematic cases stemming from his conduct as president-elect. Some of them are listed here, and several have been discussed and mentioned in this thread.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
January 12 2017 00:00 GMT
#131015
On January 12 2017 08:33 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2017 08:31 zlefin wrote:
On January 12 2017 08:27 oBlade wrote:
On January 12 2017 08:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On January 12 2017 07:51 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:
fivethirtyeight seems to have a good summary of the problem.


One of the most interesting moments in Donald Trump’s news conference Wednesday came when Trump wasn’t even on the podium: Sheri Dillon, one of Trump’s lawyers, spent several minutes explaining why Trump couldn’t realistically put his assets in a blind trust, as many ethics watchdogs have demanded.

Dillon’s argument was complex, and she may very well be right. But that doesn’t mean concerns about Trump’s conflicts of interest are invalid.

The words “blind trust” have been thrown around a lot in recent weeks, but it’s worth explaining what that phrase really means. True blind trusts aim to shield politicians or other public figures from conflicts of interest (real or perceived) by ensuring that they have no control over their assets, or even know what those assets are.

A typical case works like this: Hypothetical Sen. Jane Johnson owns $2 million in stock in the tech company where she used to be an executive and an additional $3 million in stocks, bonds and other investments. She transfers her assets into a blind trust, overseen by an independent trustee. That trustee then sells the existing holdings (either all at once or over time) so that when Johnson has to vote on a bill affecting the tech industry — or even affecting her old company — she doesn’t know whether that vote could affect her personal finances.

But Trump’s situation is far from typical. Most of his wealth isn’t held in stocks or bonds that can be easily sold; it’s in a company that he owns and operates, it’s in buildings and golf courses around the world, and it’s in his personal brand (and the licensing deals based on it). Simply transferring his assets to a blind trust wouldn’t accomplish much as long as the company remained in business. “President Trump can’t un-know he owns Trump Tower,” Dillon said Wednesday.

To put his assets in a true blind trust, Trump would need to liquidate his assets by selling the company and its holdings, stripping his name off his hotels and resorts, and canceling his licensing deals. Dillon on Wednesday argued that such a plan would be impractical if not impossible. Some of her reasons boiled down to one: It would cost Trump a lot of money. She argued, for example, that if Trump sold his assets without retaining the rights to his brand, he would “greatly diminish the value of the assets and create a fire sale.” In other words, she said, the assets would be worth far less without Trump’s name on them.

But there are practical hurdles to a true blind trust even if you aren’t worried about Trump’s personal net worth. The process of selling his assets would take time, perhaps years. And because the sales would undoubtedly make headlines, Trump could easily keep track of what he still owned and what he didn’t, meaning that even then the trust wouldn’t be truly “blind.” (It would also create the strange situation of having a business named after the president of the United States but not controlled by him.)



https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/no-one-has-a-good-plan-to-get-rid-of-trumps-conflicts-including-trump/

That being said, another really simple solution to prevent conflict of interest is simply not to elect a billionaire or anyone obscenely rich, and...

Oh wait.

I'm jocking but I'm serious. The idea that having made a shitton of money qualifies you for office is typically american and bat shit crazy. It's not limited to Trump, but i always cringe when i hear people complain about the porosity between politics and bug money. Hey, what about not voting for millionaires and even less for billionaires if you don't want your country to be a ploutocracy?

Your US bashing aside, where there should be a difference is that wealth per se isn't a bad thing if you drop the revolutionary undertones. What we don't want is people using public office to enrich themselves and entangling policy with their own greed. There's an argument to be made that people who are independently comfortable are if anything in a position to be less susceptible to that.


I wonder if there's been any careful analysis of the effect of prior wealth on odds of corruption.
one could certainly make the argument that they'd be less susceptible, just as one could make the argument they'd be more susceptible.
in general, on social things like this, reality often doesn't turn out as people would expect it too, so it's better to do careful research.


fivethrityeight had an article basically on that and the psychology of it. don't think they mention specifically on corrolation between wealth and corruptability but its a good read

https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/everyone-is-vulnerable-to-conflicts-of-interest-including-donald-trump/

Show nested quote +
“The president can’t have a conflict of interest,” Donald Trump told The New York Times in November. He appears to have meant that in the legal sense — the president isn’t bound by the same conflict-of-interest laws that loom over other executive branch officials and employees.1
But that doesn’t mean the president’s interests can’t be in conflict. When he takes office Jan. 20, Trump will be tangled in a wide array of situations in which his personal connections and business coffers are pulling him in one direction while the interests of the American presidency and people pull him in another. For example, Trump is the president of a vineyard in Virginia that’s requesting foreign worker visas from the government he’ll soon lead. He’s also involved in an ongoing business partnership with the Philippines’ diplomatic trade envoy — a relationship that could predispose Trump to accepting deals that are more favorable to that country than he otherwise might. Once he’s in office, he will appoint some members of the labor board that could hear disputes related to his hotels.

Neither Trump nor his transition team replied to interview requests for this article, but his comments to the Times suggest that he genuinely believes he can be objective and put the country first, despite financial and social pressures to do otherwise.

Unfortunately, science says he’s probably wrong.

Numerous studies have shown how conflicts of interest affect human behavior, both in the real world and in laboratory settings. Most of these have been conducted in the context of the scientific and medical professions. For instance, we know pharmaceutical companies don’t have to pony up for luxurious vacations or hand over bags of unmarked bills in order to change doctors’ prescribing habits. Even a $20 meal — a high-end cheeseburger or a cheap steak — is associated with an increased rate of prescribing a particular treatment, according to a study published in August.

Although politicians have largely been left out of this research, experts say the studies of doctors and scientists can be extrapolated to politicians like Trump. And, they say, the research shows that conflicts of interest built on both finances and friendships are likely to affect decisions that Trump will face as president, even if he doesn’t believe they will, and even if he is no more aware of their impact than your doctor is aware of the link between Ruth’s Chris and Crestor.




a fine and interesting read, thanks for the link.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-12 00:25:32
January 12 2017 00:24 GMT
#131016
The literal definition of corruption is a collusion of public and private interest and/or the abuse of public power for private gain. Due to his investment all over the world, especially in countries that have problematic relations with the US Trump could be as corrupt as barely anybody else. In fact these giant amounts of investments should have disqualified him. How can he ever make impartial decisions when so much of his own wealth is tied up in every negotiation? And he's not even handing over his assets to a blind-trust either.

This is actual corruption. When people called Clinton corrupt they just seemed upset that a woman understands how political power-play works.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
January 12 2017 00:36 GMT
#131017
On January 12 2017 05:21 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2017 05:06 Danglars wrote:
On January 12 2017 04:38 zlefin wrote:
On January 12 2017 03:45 Danglars wrote:
On January 12 2017 03:12 zlefin wrote:
On January 12 2017 03:02 Danglars wrote:
On January 12 2017 02:51 zlefin wrote:
On January 12 2017 02:45 Danglars wrote:
I have my doubts on how much Trump will do that actually makes America great again, beyond SC justice and ACA and the border. But this was making press conferences great again and I'm glad it'll be more like this than Bush-era/GHWB-era conduct for four more years--eight if the opposition party and its media supporters continue to not learn lessons from their mistakes in 2015-2016 campaigning.

I see little evidence that removing aca woudl be creditable to trump, or that the replacemenet system will be any better.
nor that the border changes will do anything actually productive.

also, what do you mean by "great again"? what actual metrics are you using to measure greatness? what was better in the past specifically that could be improved now?
in what way is america not great now?


it's a pity still that the republicans ignored the constitution to delay the supreme court so they could have a chacne to get a an extra person on it. damaging the institutions for political gain

I know you think that about the border and ACA, don't worry. But in the minds of people that think differently to you, the first three would be productive steps taken to maga. I have the utmost confidence you know already or can rediscover the arguments made about the damage caused by the ACA, large-scale illegal immigration across the porous southern border, and the activist Supreme Court.

I mean, if Republicans ignored the constitution, you must admit the Democrats did it first (Biden particularly). No need to be hyperpartisan. I leave it as an exercise for you to discover where in the constitution it says who makes the rules for he Senate conducting its business, part of which is the confirmation or rejection of nominees to the highest court.

i'm not being hyperpartisan, you are
biden also didn't in fact do it, not like the republicans did here. that's a canard they feed people so they feel better about their improper decision.
the senate didn't confirm or reject him, they didn't address it at all, which is a patent violation of the system. they abjectly refused to considre the matter, which is clearly improper.

i think it about the border and the ACA because i'm correct. more border enforcement might be fine and reasonable, the wall is dumb. arguments have been made about the ACA, an actual factual look at the evidence shows it's unimpressive and poor, helps some and hurts others a little bit. making a superior replacement would be easy from a design standpoint, not so easy politically. the ACA did fix some things, and it's not at all clear that what's done will be better.
and the notion of an "activist" supreme court is just the usual partisan nonsense not actually based in reality.
you also failed to answer the core questions on waht can even constitute maga. so i'll assume you're just like the 85% or so of americans who have opinions but have a poor and wrong factual basis for their beliefs, heavily covered by partisan bias.

I'll wait for your accompanying denouncement of Biden for vocally advocating for such an unconstitutional matter. Otherwise, I'm left thinking you're more opposed based on the party than on the principle.

And yes, I am also aware you think the facts support your side of the story. I mean, do we have to rehash why both sides think the other doesn't have a leg to stand on? You have learned the answers to your previous questions, so move on.

If Biden in fact did that, I denounce it. whether he actually did so, I'd have to look it up in depth.
You can think as you like; it is fairly common statistically that people's opinions are more based on party than principle, as yours are.

no need to rehash unless you have new evidence to present. sometimes one side is just wrong. and you never answered on maga so i'll assume that stands. moving on.

I don't know if I'm surprised or not surprised that you didn't know about it. You sounded informed and confident when you condemned Republicans for doing it, so I would suppose a prominent Senator and later Vice President wanting the same would arouse your constitutional druthers.

Except Biden didn't want the same at the time. Firstly, he spoke much later in the election season (June 1992) than when Scalia died this time (February 2016). Secondly, he explicitly stated that it would be fine for Bush to nominate someone after the election and for the Senate to act upon that nomination before the beginning of the term of the winner of the election. He clearly said that he was not defending the idea that it should be the election winner's role to nominate a new Supreme Court justice should a vacancy arise before election day, during the mandate of the sitting president.

In any case, I fail to see how Biden's speech invalidates the criticism levied at Republicans for refusing to do their constitutional job -- why are you assuming that we can't also disagree with Biden? And the GOP went much further than what Biden was saying anyway, since it denied Obama a vote on his nominee and argued that the next president should be the one nominating the new justice.

Point taken that Biden made explicit reference to the proximity to convention.

You're still making no reference to the greater arguments of the speech, which refers to the political divide and presidential election year. It wasn't some cutoff as convention neared, it was reference to the partisan politics of supreme court nominees, which persists today.
+ Show Spoiler +
Given the unusual rancor that prevailed in the Thomas nomination, the need for some serious reevaluation of the nomination and confirmation process and the overall level of bitterness that sadly infects our political system and this Presidential campaign already, it is my view that the prospects for anything but conflagration with respect to a Supreme Court nomination this year are remote at best.

Of Presidents Reagan's and Bush's last seven selections of the Court, two were not confirmed and two more were approved with the most votes cast against them in the history of the United States of America.

We have seen how, Mr. President, in my view, politics has played far too large a role in the Reagan-Bush nominations to date. One can only imagine that role becoming overarching if a choice were made this year, assuming a Justice announced tomorrow that he or she was stepping down.

Should a Justice resign this summer and the President move to name a successor, actions that will occur just days before the Democratic Presidential Convention and weeks before the Republican Convention meets, a process that is already in doubt in the minds of many will become distrusted by all. Senate consideration of a nominee under these circumstances is not fair to the President, to the nominee, or to the Senate itself.

Mr. President, where the Nation should be treated to a consideration of constitutional philosophy, all it will get in such circumstances is partisan bickering and political posturing from both parties and from both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue. As a result, it is my view that if a Supreme Court Justice resigns tomorrow, or within the next several weeks, or resigns at the end of the summer, President Bush should consider following the practice of a majority of his predecessors and not--and not--name a nominee until after the November election is completed.

The Senate, too, Mr. President, must consider how it would respond to a Supreme Court vacancy that would occur in the full throes of an election year. It is my view that if the President goes the way of Presidents Fillmore and Johnson and presses an election-year nomination, the Senate Judiciary Committee should seriously consider not scheduling confirmation hearings on the nomination until after the political campaign season is over.

I sadly predict, Mr. President, that this is going to be one of the bitterest, dirtiest, Presidential campaigns we will have seen in modern times.

I am sure, Mr. President, after having uttered these words some will criticize such a decision and say it was nothing more than an attempt to save the seat on the Court in the hopes that a Democrat will be permitted to fill it, but that would not be our intention, Mr. President, if that were the course to choose in the Senate to not consider holding hearings until after the election. Instead, it would be our pragmatic conclusion that once the political season is under way, and it is, action on a Supreme Court nomination must be put off until after the election campaign is over. That is what is fair to the nominee and is central to the process. Otherwise, it seems to me, Mr. President, we will be in deep trouble as an institution.

Others may fret that this approach would leave the Court with only eight members for some time, but as I see it, Mr. President, the cost of such a result, the need to reargue three or four cases that will divide the Justices four to four are quite minor compared to the cost that a nominee, the President, the Senate, and the Nation wouldhave to pay for what would assuredly be a bitter fight, no matter how good a person is nominated by the President, if that nomination were to take place in the next several weeks.
In the end, this may be the only course of action that historical practice and practical realism can sustain.

Similarly, if Governor Clinton should win this fall, then my views on the need for philosophic compromise between the branches would not be softened, but rather the prospects for such compromise would be naturally enhanced. With this in mind, let me start with the nomination process and how that process might be changed in the next administration, whether it is a Democrat or a Republican.

It seems clear to me that within the Bush administration, the process of selecting Supreme Court nominees has become dominated by the right intent on using the Court to implement an ultraconservative social agenda that the Congress and the public have rejected. In this way, all the participants in the process can be clear well in advance of how I intend to approach any future nominations.


Continued reference to the nature of the confirmation, still true today. Reference to partisan politics and "bitterest, dirtiest, Presidential campaigns" (And go ahead and try to tell me the campaign wasn't bitter before June 2016 in the months of February & March lol). Those were as true of Biden's arguments then as now, not reliant on the occasion of impending conventions, but on a bitter and divided electorate and the impact of the Supreme Court. In his view, the possibility of a "using the Court to implement an ultraconservative social agenda" persists until after the election, a clear point against claiming he restricted himself to between November and January. In any case, people like you and zlefin should agree that Biden saw no constitutional crisis in the Senate delaying consideration for any long period of time of a presidential nominee, irrespective of McConnell's specific citation. But look at one more example:
Chuck Shumer, now Democratic minority leader of the Senate: "We should not confirm any Bush nominee to the Supreme Court, except in extraordinary circumstances" - July 2007, 19 months before a new president would be inaugurated.

Democrats are pretty consistent, rare for them, but pretty consistent.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-12 00:42:31
January 12 2017 00:41 GMT
#131018
On January 12 2017 09:24 Nyxisto wrote:
The literal definition of corruption is a collusion of public and private interest and/or the abuse of public power for private gain. Due to his investment all over the world, especially in countries that have problematic relations with the US Trump could be as corrupt as barely anybody else. In fact these giant amounts of investments should have disqualified him. How can he ever make impartial decisions when so much of his own wealth is tied up in every negotiation? And he's not even handing over his assets to a blind-trust either.

This is actual corruption. When people called Clinton corrupt they just seemed upset that a woman understands how political power-play works.

i don't see how this is "actual" corruption; it's the potential for massive corruption, a whole lot of potential. some of which may be realized, but has not yet done so.
by your own definition it'd depend on whether he gets private gain out of it or not.
(looking up the definition of collusion, the first clause you mentioned wouldn't be applicable, so that only leaves the second)



danglars -> ignoring your points as per prior arrangement.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
January 12 2017 00:45 GMT
#131019
On January 12 2017 06:59 mustaju wrote:
Could this be a gradient definition problem? Semantics in this issue would be fairly important, since there, in my opinion, should be a differentiation between biased information, misinformed information and deliberately false information. The whole argument seems to be whether "fake news" encompasses all three or just the last one. One side shows how the term was first used by the left to describe what they say was in the deliberately false category, and should be restricted to such. The other side says that because it was used exclusively to attack some of their sources, it shows an unwillingness to criticize their own biases in their media.
Is this account fair? And are you willing to state that Breitbart has engaged in the third, deliberately false type of media?

If you want to point to deliberately false media, you'd best not point to an opinion column when the big topic was a fake news report. Common decency requires comparing apples to apples if you want to compare the current event of CNN's journalism to disputed other examples of the same on the right. One of the fun things about columnists vs reporters is you're not expected to immediately agree to opinion columns given true cited facts--they're opinion columns and everybody's got their own! We're going to get nowhere fast if you can't distinguish between "nothing wrong with it" and "not a news story, something else." It's not a good starting place for semantics.

On January 12 2017 07:42 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2017 07:41 Gorsameth wrote:
On January 12 2017 07:37 LegalLord wrote:
On January 12 2017 07:36 plasmidghost wrote:
On January 12 2017 07:24 Nevuk wrote:
https://twitter.com/EricLiptonNYT/status/819292285317873664
https://twitter.com/EricLiptonNYT/status/819292728194465793
https://twitter.com/EricLiptonNYT/status/819293570494513156
https://twitter.com/EricLiptonNYT/status/819294155964825613


Thought this was interesting. And actually worth talking about, as it isn't just a rehash of old "fake news" arguments.

Walter Schaub Jr., the director of Office of Government Ethics (OGE) is currently speaking at the Brookings Institution following the press conference held earlier today by President-elect Donald Trump in which he announced his conflict-of-interest plan. Schaub is not buying it.

In a series of tweets, Eric Lipton of The New York Times details Schaub’s take on Trump’s current plan

Although several experts have noted that Trump’s business interests may create substantial conflict-of-interest issues for the President-elect and violate Constitution’s Emoluments Clause, Trump’s legal team has stated that he is going to voluntarily donate all profits from foreign government payments made to his hotels to the United States Treasury and thus put to bed any concerns over this issue.

As Schaub noted, liquidating some of his assets may not be too high a price in order to constitutionally accept his position as President.

Schuab, who was appointed by President Barack Obama, is serving a five-year term which expires in 2018. The Office of Government Ethics is an agency tasked with directing policies on how to prevent conflicts of interest in the executive branch.

http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/office-of-government-ethics-head-says-trump-conflict-of-interest-plan-fails/

Is there something stopping Trump from completely selling anything he owns? I feel like if he were to put it in a trust where he manages it after his presidency, it should still be considered a conflict of interest since he still has significant interest in it

You ever sold a multi-billion dollar company before?

He should have thought of that before he decided to run for President.

Thought about the possibility that some people might be upset about him having substantial assets in case he happens to become president?

How on earth are we to realize the dream of a citizen legislature and any poor boy or girl might be president one day if the standard is selling everything you've worked up to until this point? We have impeachment for clear acts of using the office for personal enrichment, and newsflash for people that never heard of the teapot dome scandal or whitewater, it isn't confined to companies with your name on it!
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-01-12 00:57:05
January 12 2017 00:56 GMT
#131020
On January 12 2017 09:41 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 12 2017 09:24 Nyxisto wrote:
The literal definition of corruption is a collusion of public and private interest and/or the abuse of public power for private gain. Due to his investment all over the world, especially in countries that have problematic relations with the US Trump could be as corrupt as barely anybody else. In fact these giant amounts of investments should have disqualified him. How can he ever make impartial decisions when so much of his own wealth is tied up in every negotiation? And he's not even handing over his assets to a blind-trust either.

This is actual corruption. When people called Clinton corrupt they just seemed upset that a woman understands how political power-play works.

i don't see how this is "actual" corruption; it's the potential for massive corruption, a whole lot of potential. some of which may be realized, but has not yet done so.
by your own definition it'd depend on whether he gets private gain out of it or not.
(looking up the definition of collusion, the first clause you mentioned wouldn't be applicable, so that only leaves the second)


Actual corruption in the sense that it has the real potential to derail US foreign policy. Everything that has been levelled at Clinton or even other Republicans is basically sleazy political work, but never stuff that in any way that would compromise the function of the office on any fundamental level.

You might disagree with the tactics that Clinton pulled throughout her career but I don't think there was ever any indication that she does it for private profit. This is a claim that's commonly thrown at career politicians but if they wanted to make money they could've turned into private lobbyists long ago.

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