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On January 12 2017 09:36 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2017 05:21 kwizach wrote:On January 12 2017 05:06 Danglars wrote:On January 12 2017 04:38 zlefin wrote:On January 12 2017 03:45 Danglars wrote:On January 12 2017 03:12 zlefin wrote:On January 12 2017 03:02 Danglars wrote:On January 12 2017 02:51 zlefin wrote:On January 12 2017 02:45 Danglars wrote: I have my doubts on how much Trump will do that actually makes America great again, beyond SC justice and ACA and the border. But this was making press conferences great again and I'm glad it'll be more like this than Bush-era/GHWB-era conduct for four more years--eight if the opposition party and its media supporters continue to not learn lessons from their mistakes in 2015-2016 campaigning. I see little evidence that removing aca woudl be creditable to trump, or that the replacemenet system will be any better. nor that the border changes will do anything actually productive. also, what do you mean by "great again"? what actual metrics are you using to measure greatness? what was better in the past specifically that could be improved now? in what way is america not great now? it's a pity still that the republicans ignored the constitution to delay the supreme court so they could have a chacne to get a an extra person on it. damaging the institutions for political gain  I know you think that about the border and ACA, don't worry. But in the minds of people that think differently to you, the first three would be productive steps taken to maga. I have the utmost confidence you know already or can rediscover the arguments made about the damage caused by the ACA, large-scale illegal immigration across the porous southern border, and the activist Supreme Court. I mean, if Republicans ignored the constitution, you must admit the Democrats did it first (Biden particularly). No need to be hyperpartisan. I leave it as an exercise for you to discover where in the constitution it says who makes the rules for he Senate conducting its business, part of which is the confirmation or rejection of nominees to the highest court. i'm not being hyperpartisan, you are  biden also didn't in fact do it, not like the republicans did here. that's a canard they feed people so they feel better about their improper decision. the senate didn't confirm or reject him, they didn't address it at all, which is a patent violation of the system. they abjectly refused to considre the matter, which is clearly improper. i think it about the border and the ACA because i'm correct. more border enforcement might be fine and reasonable, the wall is dumb. arguments have been made about the ACA, an actual factual look at the evidence shows it's unimpressive and poor, helps some and hurts others a little bit. making a superior replacement would be easy from a design standpoint, not so easy politically. the ACA did fix some things, and it's not at all clear that what's done will be better. and the notion of an "activist" supreme court is just the usual partisan nonsense not actually based in reality. you also failed to answer the core questions on waht can even constitute maga. so i'll assume you're just like the 85% or so of americans who have opinions but have a poor and wrong factual basis for their beliefs, heavily covered by partisan bias. I'll wait for your accompanying denouncement of Biden for vocally advocating for such an unconstitutional matter. Otherwise, I'm left thinking you're more opposed based on the party than on the principle. And yes, I am also aware you think the facts support your side of the story. I mean, do we have to rehash why both sides think the other doesn't have a leg to stand on? You have learned the answers to your previous questions, so move on. If Biden in fact did that, I denounce it. whether he actually did so, I'd have to look it up in depth. You can think as you like; it is fairly common statistically that people's opinions are more based on party than principle, as yours are. no need to rehash unless you have new evidence to present. sometimes one side is just wrong. and you never answered on maga so i'll assume that stands. moving on. I don't know if I'm surprised or not surprised that you didn't know about it. You sounded informed and confident when you condemned Republicans for doing it, so I would suppose a prominent Senator and later Vice President wanting the same would arouse your constitutional druthers. Except Biden didn't want the same at the time. Firstly, he spoke much later in the election season (June 1992) than when Scalia died this time (February 2016). Secondly, he explicitly stated that it would be fine for Bush to nominate someone after the election and for the Senate to act upon that nomination before the beginning of the term of the winner of the election. He clearly said that he was not defending the idea that it should be the election winner's role to nominate a new Supreme Court justice should a vacancy arise before election day, during the mandate of the sitting president. In any case, I fail to see how Biden's speech invalidates the criticism levied at Republicans for refusing to do their constitutional job -- why are you assuming that we can't also disagree with Biden? And the GOP went much further than what Biden was saying anyway, since it denied Obama a vote on his nominee and argued that the next president should be the one nominating the new justice. Point taken that Biden made explicit reference to the proximity to convention. You're still making no reference to the greater arguments of the speech, which refers to the political divide and presidential election year. It wasn't some cutoff as convention neared, it was reference to the partisan politics of supreme court nominees, which persists today. + Show Spoiler +Given the unusual rancor that prevailed in the Thomas nomination, the need for some serious reevaluation of the nomination and confirmation process and the overall level of bitterness that sadly infects our political system and this Presidential campaign already, it is my view that the prospects for anything but conflagration with respect to a Supreme Court nomination this year are remote at best.
Of Presidents Reagan's and Bush's last seven selections of the Court, two were not confirmed and two more were approved with the most votes cast against them in the history of the United States of America.
We have seen how, Mr. President, in my view, politics has played far too large a role in the Reagan-Bush nominations to date. One can only imagine that role becoming overarching if a choice were made this year, assuming a Justice announced tomorrow that he or she was stepping down.
Should a Justice resign this summer and the President move to name a successor, actions that will occur just days before the Democratic Presidential Convention and weeks before the Republican Convention meets, a process that is already in doubt in the minds of many will become distrusted by all. Senate consideration of a nominee under these circumstances is not fair to the President, to the nominee, or to the Senate itself.
Mr. President, where the Nation should be treated to a consideration of constitutional philosophy, all it will get in such circumstances is partisan bickering and political posturing from both parties and from both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue. As a result, it is my view that if a Supreme Court Justice resigns tomorrow, or within the next several weeks, or resigns at the end of the summer, President Bush should consider following the practice of a majority of his predecessors and not--and not--name a nominee until after the November election is completed.
The Senate, too, Mr. President, must consider how it would respond to a Supreme Court vacancy that would occur in the full throes of an election year. It is my view that if the President goes the way of Presidents Fillmore and Johnson and presses an election-year nomination, the Senate Judiciary Committee should seriously consider not scheduling confirmation hearings on the nomination until after the political campaign season is over.
I sadly predict, Mr. President, that this is going to be one of the bitterest, dirtiest, Presidential campaigns we will have seen in modern times.
I am sure, Mr. President, after having uttered these words some will criticize such a decision and say it was nothing more than an attempt to save the seat on the Court in the hopes that a Democrat will be permitted to fill it, but that would not be our intention, Mr. President, if that were the course to choose in the Senate to not consider holding hearings until after the election. Instead, it would be our pragmatic conclusion that once the political season is under way, and it is, action on a Supreme Court nomination must be put off until after the election campaign is over. That is what is fair to the nominee and is central to the process. Otherwise, it seems to me, Mr. President, we will be in deep trouble as an institution.
Others may fret that this approach would leave the Court with only eight members for some time, but as I see it, Mr. President, the cost of such a result, the need to reargue three or four cases that will divide the Justices four to four are quite minor compared to the cost that a nominee, the President, the Senate, and the Nation wouldhave to pay for what would assuredly be a bitter fight, no matter how good a person is nominated by the President, if that nomination were to take place in the next several weeks. In the end, this may be the only course of action that historical practice and practical realism can sustain.
Similarly, if Governor Clinton should win this fall, then my views on the need for philosophic compromise between the branches would not be softened, but rather the prospects for such compromise would be naturally enhanced. With this in mind, let me start with the nomination process and how that process might be changed in the next administration, whether it is a Democrat or a Republican.
It seems clear to me that within the Bush administration, the process of selecting Supreme Court nominees has become dominated by the right intent on using the Court to implement an ultraconservative social agenda that the Congress and the public have rejected. In this way, all the participants in the process can be clear well in advance of how I intend to approach any future nominations. Continued reference to the nature of the confirmation, still true today. Reference to partisan politics and "bitterest, dirtiest, Presidential campaigns" (And go ahead and try to tell me the campaign wasn't bitter before June 2016 in the months of February & March lol). Those were as true of Biden's arguments then as now, not reliant on the occasion of impending conventions, but on a bitter and divided electorate and the impact of the Supreme Court. In his view, the possibility of a "using the Court to implement an ultraconservative social agenda" persists until after the election, a clear point against claiming he restricted himself to between November and January. In any case, people like you and zlefin should agree that Biden saw no constitutional crisis in the Senate delaying consideration for any long period of time of a presidential nominee, irrespective of McConnell's specific citation. But look at one more example: Chuck Shumer, now Democratic minority leader of the Senate: "We should not confirm any Bush nominee to the Supreme Court, except in extraordinary circumstances" - July 2007, 19 months before a new president would be inaugurated. Democrats are pretty consistent, rare for them, but pretty consistent. I already said I disagreed with Biden, so I'm not sure why you're quoting the rest of his speech, which I had already read. Yet one thing you are still ignoring about the difference between Biden's speech and what the GOP actually did is what I've already stated twice in my posts: Biden explicitly stated that it would be fine for Bush to nominate someone after the election and for the Senate to act upon that nomination before the beginning of the term of the winner of the election. He clearly said that he was not defending the idea that it should be the election winner's role to nominate a new Supreme Court justice should a vacancy arise before election day, during the mandate of the sitting president.
This is clearly different from the position taken by the GOP.
Also, you just took a Schumer quote out of context. Here is a link describing the context of the quote, and here's what he was saying:
"We cannot afford to see Justice Stevens replaced by another Roberts or Justice Ginsburg replaced by another Alito. Given the track of this President and the experience of obfuscation at hearings, with respect to the Supreme Court at least, I will recommend to my colleagues that we should not confirm any Bush nominee to the Supreme Court except in extraordinary circumstances. They must prove by actions not words that they are in the mainstream rather than we have to prove that they are not." So yeah, Schumer wasn't saying that any Bush nominee should be blocked. He was saying that if they could prove they were mainstream picks, they could be confirmed. Again, this is different from the position taken by the GOP.
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On January 12 2017 09:56 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2017 09:41 zlefin wrote:On January 12 2017 09:24 Nyxisto wrote: The literal definition of corruption is a collusion of public and private interest and/or the abuse of public power for private gain. Due to his investment all over the world, especially in countries that have problematic relations with the US Trump could be as corrupt as barely anybody else. In fact these giant amounts of investments should have disqualified him. How can he ever make impartial decisions when so much of his own wealth is tied up in every negotiation? And he's not even handing over his assets to a blind-trust either.
This is actual corruption. When people called Clinton corrupt they just seemed upset that a woman understands how political power-play works. i don't see how this is "actual" corruption; it's the potential for massive corruption, a whole lot of potential. some of which may be realized, but has not yet done so. by your own definition it'd depend on whether he gets private gain out of it or not. (looking up the definition of collusion, the first clause you mentioned wouldn't be applicable, so that only leaves the second) Actual corruption in the sense that it has the real potential to derail US foreign policy. Everything that has been levelled at Clinton or even other Republicans is basically sleazy political work, but never stuff that in any way that would compromise the function of the office on any fundamental level. You might disagree with the tactics that Clinton pulled throughout her career but I don't think there was ever any indication that she does it for private profit. This is a claim that's commonly thrown at career politicians but if they wanted to make money they could've turned into private lobbyists long ago. I'd call that potential corruption, not actual corruption. a severe conflict of interest. I woudln't call it actual corruption until acts have been done that benefit him at the expense of the nation's interests.
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Estonia4504 Posts
@danglars - You are correct, the use of the editorial to argue semantics was an error on my behalf. I hope using a bad example does not completely devalue the part of the argument that was about the importance of using clear terminology.
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saw some of today's andersoon cooper interview with kellyann conway (not sure on spelling). while she's good at her job, it's by doing so much dissembling and obfuscation, I found her behavior and misinformation reprehensible and damaging to good institutions. cooper did a good and moral job of trying to clear things up.
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Canada11349 Posts
On January 12 2017 08:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2017 07:51 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:fivethirtyeight seems to have a good summary of the problem. One of the most interesting moments in Donald Trump’s news conference Wednesday came when Trump wasn’t even on the podium: Sheri Dillon, one of Trump’s lawyers, spent several minutes explaining why Trump couldn’t realistically put his assets in a blind trust, as many ethics watchdogs have demanded.
Dillon’s argument was complex, and she may very well be right. But that doesn’t mean concerns about Trump’s conflicts of interest are invalid.
The words “blind trust” have been thrown around a lot in recent weeks, but it’s worth explaining what that phrase really means. True blind trusts aim to shield politicians or other public figures from conflicts of interest (real or perceived) by ensuring that they have no control over their assets, or even know what those assets are.
A typical case works like this: Hypothetical Sen. Jane Johnson owns $2 million in stock in the tech company where she used to be an executive and an additional $3 million in stocks, bonds and other investments. She transfers her assets into a blind trust, overseen by an independent trustee. That trustee then sells the existing holdings (either all at once or over time) so that when Johnson has to vote on a bill affecting the tech industry — or even affecting her old company — she doesn’t know whether that vote could affect her personal finances.
But Trump’s situation is far from typical. Most of his wealth isn’t held in stocks or bonds that can be easily sold; it’s in a company that he owns and operates, it’s in buildings and golf courses around the world, and it’s in his personal brand (and the licensing deals based on it). Simply transferring his assets to a blind trust wouldn’t accomplish much as long as the company remained in business. “President Trump can’t un-know he owns Trump Tower,” Dillon said Wednesday.
To put his assets in a true blind trust, Trump would need to liquidate his assets by selling the company and its holdings, stripping his name off his hotels and resorts, and canceling his licensing deals. Dillon on Wednesday argued that such a plan would be impractical if not impossible. Some of her reasons boiled down to one: It would cost Trump a lot of money. She argued, for example, that if Trump sold his assets without retaining the rights to his brand, he would “greatly diminish the value of the assets and create a fire sale.” In other words, she said, the assets would be worth far less without Trump’s name on them.
But there are practical hurdles to a true blind trust even if you aren’t worried about Trump’s personal net worth. The process of selling his assets would take time, perhaps years. And because the sales would undoubtedly make headlines, Trump could easily keep track of what he still owned and what he didn’t, meaning that even then the trust wouldn’t be truly “blind.” (It would also create the strange situation of having a business named after the president of the United States but not controlled by him.)
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/no-one-has-a-good-plan-to-get-rid-of-trumps-conflicts-including-trump/ That being said, another really simple solution to prevent conflict of interest is simply not to elect a billionaire or anyone obscenely rich, and... Oh wait. I'm jocking but I'm serious. The idea that having made a shitton of money qualifies you for office is typically american and bat shit crazy. It's not limited to Trump, but i always cringe when i hear people complain about the porosity between politics and bug money. Hey, what about not voting for millionaires and even less for billionaires if you don't want your country to be a ploutocracy? Well, in a Westminster parliamentary system, there are somewhat ways around this. In the early 2000's, our prime minster owned a large cargo shipping company and put it into a blind trust and then recused himself from cabinet decisions if they related to his company CSL. I don't know if a president could do the same. I guess our guy handed his company over to one of his sons and then Two "public-interest" directors will be appointed to CSL's board, including Charles Dubin, a well-respected former judge. Also, an independent board chairman is to be appointed.
However, I think asking a business owner to divest their business is unreasonable. You say it's crazy to think generating a lot of money qualifies you for office, okay. But demanding divestment effectively cuts out any particularly wealthy business person to say you can NEVER hold office whether you are qualified or not. I'm not convinced Trump will take sufficient steps to separate himself from his business, but some of the demands I'm seeing in the media are completely unreasonable. But I don't think there's a perfect solution here. It will be messy because he owns a lot and that's part of the package deal; the guy voted in who owns a lot, continues to own a lot.
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On January 12 2017 11:49 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2017 08:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 12 2017 07:51 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:fivethirtyeight seems to have a good summary of the problem. One of the most interesting moments in Donald Trump’s news conference Wednesday came when Trump wasn’t even on the podium: Sheri Dillon, one of Trump’s lawyers, spent several minutes explaining why Trump couldn’t realistically put his assets in a blind trust, as many ethics watchdogs have demanded.
Dillon’s argument was complex, and she may very well be right. But that doesn’t mean concerns about Trump’s conflicts of interest are invalid.
The words “blind trust” have been thrown around a lot in recent weeks, but it’s worth explaining what that phrase really means. True blind trusts aim to shield politicians or other public figures from conflicts of interest (real or perceived) by ensuring that they have no control over their assets, or even know what those assets are.
A typical case works like this: Hypothetical Sen. Jane Johnson owns $2 million in stock in the tech company where she used to be an executive and an additional $3 million in stocks, bonds and other investments. She transfers her assets into a blind trust, overseen by an independent trustee. That trustee then sells the existing holdings (either all at once or over time) so that when Johnson has to vote on a bill affecting the tech industry — or even affecting her old company — she doesn’t know whether that vote could affect her personal finances.
But Trump’s situation is far from typical. Most of his wealth isn’t held in stocks or bonds that can be easily sold; it’s in a company that he owns and operates, it’s in buildings and golf courses around the world, and it’s in his personal brand (and the licensing deals based on it). Simply transferring his assets to a blind trust wouldn’t accomplish much as long as the company remained in business. “President Trump can’t un-know he owns Trump Tower,” Dillon said Wednesday.
To put his assets in a true blind trust, Trump would need to liquidate his assets by selling the company and its holdings, stripping his name off his hotels and resorts, and canceling his licensing deals. Dillon on Wednesday argued that such a plan would be impractical if not impossible. Some of her reasons boiled down to one: It would cost Trump a lot of money. She argued, for example, that if Trump sold his assets without retaining the rights to his brand, he would “greatly diminish the value of the assets and create a fire sale.” In other words, she said, the assets would be worth far less without Trump’s name on them.
But there are practical hurdles to a true blind trust even if you aren’t worried about Trump’s personal net worth. The process of selling his assets would take time, perhaps years. And because the sales would undoubtedly make headlines, Trump could easily keep track of what he still owned and what he didn’t, meaning that even then the trust wouldn’t be truly “blind.” (It would also create the strange situation of having a business named after the president of the United States but not controlled by him.)
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/no-one-has-a-good-plan-to-get-rid-of-trumps-conflicts-including-trump/ That being said, another really simple solution to prevent conflict of interest is simply not to elect a billionaire or anyone obscenely rich, and... Oh wait. I'm jocking but I'm serious. The idea that having made a shitton of money qualifies you for office is typically american and bat shit crazy. It's not limited to Trump, but i always cringe when i hear people complain about the porosity between politics and bug money. Hey, what about not voting for millionaires and even less for billionaires if you don't want your country to be a ploutocracy? Well, in a Westminster parliamentary system, there are somewhat ways around this. In the early 2000's, our prime minster owned a large cargo shipping company and put it into a blind trust and then recused himself from cabinet decisions if they related to his company CSL. I don't know if a president could do the same. I guess our guy handed his company over to one of his sons and then Show nested quote +Two "public-interest" directors will be appointed to CSL's board, including Charles Dubin, a well-respected former judge. Also, an independent board chairman is to be appointed. However, I think asking a business owner to divest their business is unreasonable. You say it's crazy to think generating a lot of money qualifies you for office, okay. Show nested quote +But demanding divestment effectively cuts out any particularly wealthy business person to say you can NEVER hold office whether you are qualified or not. I'm not convinced Trump will take sufficient steps to separate himself from his business, but some of the demands I'm seeing in the media are completely unreasonable. But I don't think there's a perfect solution here. It will be messy because he owns a lot and that's part of the package deal; the guy voted in who owns a lot, continues to own a lot.
I don't think it cuts out [BOLD]any[/BOLD] particularly wealthy business person. It penalizes everyone the wealth that they would have accumulated. It penalizes even worse for wealthy business people who stamp their name on everything.
But ultimately is requiring someone to essentially pass up a billion dollars forbidding them from running for the presidency when they're already a billionaire? Would you pay a billion dollars to MAGA? I'm not sure if Trump would, which is the problem.
The ultimate kicker, of course, is that if Trump had been planning for this since he announced his candidacy he probably could have done something that would be fine (though the left would still howl about it). But since day 1 he's handwaved it and at one point was totally on board with a blind trust (or something he called that, anyway). Then again, we elected the fly by the seat of his pants self-contradictor, so it's not surprising that's what we got.
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On January 12 2017 08:41 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2017 08:33 LegalLord wrote: The only unique thing about Trump's situation I see is simply that he is really wealthy. Nothing about his conduct suggests any particularly troubling concerns over conflicts of interest. There have been plenty of examples of potential conflicts of interest put forward since his election, including several problematic cases stemming from his conduct as president-elect. Some of them are listed here, and several have been discussed and mentioned in this thread. I'd love to see Legallord's response to this. Trump's mired in conflicts of interest involving his family and business dealings.
It's also appalling how he just continues to dismiss the demands for a tax return, by saying noone besides the media wants to see it, when he's clearly hiding compromising information.
The press conference was a tough watch, most of it was just him saying how great/tremendous or terrible/horrible he thinks various things are. His language is so over-the-top it gives false impressions of issues that are far more nuanced. Most notable was his professing his belief in freedom of the press then telling a CNN reporter they don't get to ask a question because they're fake news (misuse of the term, unless you're a professional sophist like xDaunt). They wrote that there was an allegation and that it was currently unsubstantiated, without giving details. Perhaps it was unnecessary news, but the media's full of unnecessary shit, including DT's twitter. He refuted it and then only took questions from media organizations he likes. It's baffling to me that some people are angrier with the media than they are with this pathological liar. All news outlets have to do is keep publishing Trump's statements/tweets, their blatant inaccuracies and the repercussions, if they want to eventually sink him. No need for grand conspiracies, I expect that he'll be impeached within his first term.
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On January 12 2017 13:01 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2017 08:41 kwizach wrote:On January 12 2017 08:33 LegalLord wrote: The only unique thing about Trump's situation I see is simply that he is really wealthy. Nothing about his conduct suggests any particularly troubling concerns over conflicts of interest. There have been plenty of examples of potential conflicts of interest put forward since his election, including several problematic cases stemming from his conduct as president-elect. Some of them are listed here, and several have been discussed and mentioned in this thread. I'd love to see Legallord's response to this. Trump's mired in conflicts of interest involving his family and business dealings. It's also appalling how he just continues to dismiss the demands for a tax return, by saying noone besides the media wants to see it, when he's clearly hiding compromising information. The press conference was a tough watch, most of it was just him saying how great/tremendous or terrible/horrible he thinks various things are. His language is so over-the-top it gives false impressions of issues that are far more nuanced. Most notable was his professing his belief in freedom of the press then telling a CNN reporter they don't get to ask a question because they're fake news (misuse of the term, unless you're a professional sophist like xDaunt). They wrote that there was an allegation and that it was currently unsubstantiated, without giving details. Perhaps it was unnecessary news, but the media's full of unnecessary shit, including DT's twitter. He refuted it and then only took questions from media organizations he likes. It's baffling to me that some people are angrier with the media than they are with this pathological liar. All news outlets have to do is keep publishing Trump's statements/tweets, their blatant inaccuracies and the repercussions, if they want to eventually sink him. No need for grand conspiracies, I expect that he'll be impeached within his first term. most people don't actually care that much about facts, and are also rather terrible at correctly assessing what's true and what isn't. so it seems very unlikely that trump's dumb statements will sink him. as they haven't sunk him that low yet.
the actual repercussions may sink him, if they happen fast enough, some policies of course take awhile to sink in and for the effects to become apparent (even then disentangling causation is very hard and most people are terrible at it).
i don't find it baffling, because i've had time to get used to it, so I just find it sad.
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Well we saw less than a week ago CNN recieve easily the lowest trustworthy rating amongst cable news stations in the Rasmussen poll.There is a genuine argument for revoking CNNs white house press pass.CNN has become a total laughing stock.
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On January 12 2017 13:36 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Well we saw less than a week ago CNN recieve easily the lowest trustworthy rating amongst cable news stations in the Rasmussen poll.There is a genuine argument for revoking CNNs white house press pass.CNN has become a total laughing stock. what are the standards for a white house press pass? and what should they be? i wouldn't call cnn a total laughing stock, only a half laughing stock.
edit: I looked at the rasmussen poll methodology, and as I don't have their membership which provides extra detail, I can't be sure, but it looks like the format is it asks which station they watch most, and then how trustworthy the political news they're receiving is. as such it's not actually asking how trustworthy each individual channel is. this creates an important issue in directionality: it's possible that people who find reporting less reliable and trustworthy in general are more prone to choosing cnn as their primary source, as from a partisan perspective cnn is between the other two. there may also be other peculiarities which limit what conclusions we can draw from this poll.
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On January 12 2017 07:24 Nevuk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Thought this was interesting. And actually worth talking about, as it isn't just a rehash of old "fake news" arguments. Walter Schaub Jr., the director of Office of Government Ethics (OGE) is currently speaking at the Brookings Institution following the press conference held earlier today by President-elect Donald Trump in which he announced his conflict-of-interest plan. Schaub is not buying it.
In a series of tweets, Eric Lipton of The New York Times details Schaub’s take on Trump’s current plan
Although several experts have noted that Trump’s business interests may create substantial conflict-of-interest issues for the President-elect and violate Constitution’s Emoluments Clause, Trump’s legal team has stated that he is going to voluntarily donate all profits from foreign government payments made to his hotels to the United States Treasury and thus put to bed any concerns over this issue.
As Schaub noted, liquidating some of his assets may not be too high a price in order to constitutionally accept his position as President.
Schuab, who was appointed by President Barack Obama, is serving a five-year term which expires in 2018. The Office of Government Ethics is an agency tasked with directing policies on how to prevent conflicts of interest in the executive branch.
http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/office-of-government-ethics-head-says-trump-conflict-of-interest-plan-fails/ I mean, the title often accompanying the Presidency is "Commander in Chief".
You are commanding thousands of individuals who have volunteered to give their lives in service. And you, their leader, can't be asked to give up your foreign business interests?
How is that fucking okay? It's pathetic, and people excusing it are more pathetic.
I honestly think the problem at this point is we just can't admit to ourselves the enormity of the problem. We can't let Trump become the leader of our nation -- but what do we do then? He is completely, blatantly, utterly compromised. "Conflict of interest" seems to be putting it way too lightly. And I don't think anyone knows what to do about it.
The bright side to all this may be protections created to prevent this in the future. Requiring full financial disclosure, ie tax returns, should be one obvious answer. "Precedent" doesn't work, because apparently a large swath of Americans just don't care. Hillary is "corrupt" and should be in jail, and yet they're ambivalent about Vladimir Putin. It just doesn't get more dense than that. Elective representation is great, but we can't trust Americans to make informed decisions. We have to inform them against their will.
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On January 12 2017 13:36 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Well we saw less than a week ago CNN recieve easily the lowest trustworthy rating amongst cable news stations in the Rasmussen poll.There is a genuine argument for revoking CNNs white house press pass.CNN has become a total laughing stock. How is people's perception a genuine argument for revoking an organization's press pass? Shouldn't fact checking be involved? The fact that they're watching CNN means that they're already more discerning than the majority of cable news viewers who watch Fox. Having more viewers who are critical thinkers doesn't make a news org. a 'total laughing stock' and even then CNN is only last out of an opinion poll involving 3 news agencies.
According to your pointless poll, Fox News viewers have the highest trust rating, so I guess that means Fox is the most trustworthy cable news source?
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On January 12 2017 13:48 Leporello wrote:I mean, the title often accompanying the Presidency is "Commander in Chief". You are commanding thousands of individuals who have volunteered to give their lives in service. And you, their leader, can't be asked to give up your foreign business interests? How is that fucking okay? It's pathetic, and people excusing it are more pathetic. I honestly think the problem at this point is we just can't admit to ourselves the enormity of the problem. We can't let Trump become the leader of our nation -- but what do we do then? He is completely, blatantly, utterly compromised. "Conflict of interest" seems to be putting it way too lightly. And I don't think anyone knows what to do about it. The bright side to this may be protections created to prevent this in the future. Requiring full financial disclosure, ie tax returns, should be one obvious answer. "Precedent" doesn't work. there's not enough agreement on trump being unfit to remove him. if there was actual widespread agreement it wouldn't be that hard to make up some sound legal excuse.
I'd favor doing various systemic reforms which would prevent a future trump occurrence. sadly that kind of sound and thoughtful maintenance and government design work doesn't get done so much.
edit: you might like reading the book in my sig which covers the many ways in which elections don't work that well, and the ways in which it fails to achieve its putative objectives.
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On January 12 2017 13:48 Leporello wrote:I mean, the title often accompanying the Presidency is "Commander in Chief". You are commanding thousands of individuals who have volunteered to give their lives in service. And you, their leader, can't be asked to give up your foreign business interests? How is that fucking okay? It's pathetic, and people excusing it are more pathetic. I honestly think the problem at this point is we just can't admit to ourselves the enormity of the problem. We can't let Trump become the leader of our nation -- but what do we do then? He is completely, blatantly, utterly compromised. "Conflict of interest" seems to be putting it way too lightly. And I don't think anyone knows what to do about it. The bright side to this may be protections created to prevent this in the future.Requiring full financial disclosure, ie tax returns, should be one obvious answer. "Precedent" doesn't work. Like trying to educate people and get some real information in front of their eyes? Maybe get some actual qualified people to run for the office and not anyone who has ever had any kind of litigation or accusation levied against them?
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On January 12 2017 13:48 Leporello wrote:I mean, the title often accompanying the Presidency is "Commander in Chief". You are commanding thousands of individuals who have volunteered to give their lives in service. And you, their leader, can't be asked to give up your foreign business interests? How is that fucking okay? It's pathetic, and people excusing it are more pathetic. I honestly think the problem at this point is we just can't admit to ourselves the enormity of the problem. We can't let Trump become the leader of our nation -- but what do we do then? He is completely, blatantly, utterly compromised. "Conflict of interest" seems to be putting it way too lightly. And I don't think anyone knows what to do about it. The bright side to all this may be protections created to prevent this in the future. Requiring full financial disclosure, ie tax returns, should be one obvious answer. "Precedent" doesn't work, because apparently a large swath of Americans just don't care. Hillary is "corrupt" and should be in jail, and yet they're ambivalent about Vladimir Putin. It just doesn't get more dense than that. Elective representation is great, but we can't trust Americans to make informed decisions. We have to inform them against their will. Your issue goes beyond troublesome conflicts of interest if you're prepared to say "We can't let Trump become the leader of our nation." The American people, at least an electoral majority among the states, disagree with you that conflicts of interest should keep him out of the White House. So buckle up and accept reality, kid, because it's going to be a tough ride. Trump's name is his brand, and his brand is his name. So far, he's resigning to let his sons manage the company, and his assets are going into a trust. We have the most openly aggressive and biased press in recent memory to report on any Arab princes dumping billions on stays in his hotels.
And, to top it all off, "we can't trust Americans to make informed decisions." I think yesterday, today, and tomorrow's lessons is we can't let Americans like you determine which Americans should and shouldn't be trusted ... the best of elitist attitudes lately ... and frankly not trust you when you claim that "elective representation is great." The Republicans will control two branches of the federal government and Democrats have lost over one thousand seats at the federal and state levels since Obama took office in 2009.
Elective representation is great, but we can't trust Americans to make informed decisions. We have to inform them against their will. Surrender now your pretense at a government of the people, for the people, and by the people. You only like that idea when it suits you.
On January 12 2017 13:01 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2017 08:41 kwizach wrote:On January 12 2017 08:33 LegalLord wrote: The only unique thing about Trump's situation I see is simply that he is really wealthy. Nothing about his conduct suggests any particularly troubling concerns over conflicts of interest. There have been plenty of examples of potential conflicts of interest put forward since his election, including several problematic cases stemming from his conduct as president-elect. Some of them are listed here, and several have been discussed and mentioned in this thread. I'd love to see Legallord's response to this. Trump's mired in conflicts of interest involving his family and business dealings. It's also appalling how he just continues to dismiss the demands for a tax return, by saying noone besides the media wants to see it, when he's clearly hiding compromising information. The press conference was a tough watch, most of it was just him saying how great/tremendous or terrible/horrible he thinks various things are. His language is so over-the-top it gives false impressions of issues that are far more nuanced. Most notable was his professing his belief in freedom of the press then telling a CNN reporter they don't get to ask a question because they're fake news (misuse of the term, unless you're a professional sophist like xDaunt). They wrote that there was an allegation and that it was currently unsubstantiated, without giving details. Perhaps it was unnecessary news, but the media's full of unnecessary shit, including DT's twitter. He refuted it and then only took questions from media organizations he likes. It's baffling to me that some people are angrier with the media than they are with this pathological liar. All news outlets have to do is keep publishing Trump's statements/tweets, their blatant inaccuracies and the repercussions, if they want to eventually sink him. No need for grand conspiracies, I expect that he'll be impeached within his first term. Did you even pay attention to which media organizations he answered questions from? That wasn't a room full of Fox News and conservative bloggers, bro. Watch it again and take your time and pay attention to the phrasing of the questions to distinguish the sycophants from the reporters from the attack dogs of the left.
In the contest between pathological liars, he's a bit funnier than traditional media. You could get angry about this, or seek to correct your own blatant inaccuracies and their repercussions (hint: growing distrust in legacy media). I'll even extend an olive branch and give you that he represents a threat towards certain press freedoms given how often he litigates and threatens to litigate after bad press. He was just a peasant compared to Hillary's threat, but he's still a danger. So how about researching the justified press anger, do a little bubble-busting of your own, and join others to oppose future actions Trump will do that are in line with how he conducted himself as a private citizen? Unless you're a professional muck raker, like you've accused others of being professional sophists?
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Sweden33719 Posts
He was just a peasant compared to Hillary's threat, but he's still a danger Could you expand on this? Never heard Hillary being a danger to freedom of press before, curious what I've missed.
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The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service has designated the rusty patched bumblebee an endangered species — the first such designation for a bumblebee and for a bee species in the continental U.S.
The protected status, which goes into effect on Feb. 10, includes requirements for federal protections and the development of a recovery plan. It also means that states with habitats for this species are eligible for federal funds.
"Today's Endangered Species listing is the best—and probably last—hope for the recovery of the rusty patched bumble bee," NRDC Senior Attorney Rebecca Riley said in a statement from the Xerces Society, which advocates for invertebrates. "Bumble bees are dying off, vanishing from our farms, gardens, and parks, where they were once found in great numbers."
Large parts of the Eastern and Midwestern United States were once crawling with these bees, Bombus affinis, but the bees have suffered a dramatic decline in the last two decades due to habitat loss and degradation, along with pathogens and pesticides.
Indeed, the bee was found in 31 states and Canadian provinces before the mid- to late-1990s, according to the final rule published in the Federal Register. But since 2000, it has been reported in only 13 states and Ontario, Canada. It has seen an 88 percent decline in the number of populations and an 87 percent loss in the amount of territory it inhabits.
This means the species is vulnerable to extinction, the rule says, even without further habitat loss or insecticide exposure. Canada designated the species as endangered in 2012.
Source
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On January 12 2017 08:27 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2017 08:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:On January 12 2017 07:51 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:fivethirtyeight seems to have a good summary of the problem. One of the most interesting moments in Donald Trump’s news conference Wednesday came when Trump wasn’t even on the podium: Sheri Dillon, one of Trump’s lawyers, spent several minutes explaining why Trump couldn’t realistically put his assets in a blind trust, as many ethics watchdogs have demanded.
Dillon’s argument was complex, and she may very well be right. But that doesn’t mean concerns about Trump’s conflicts of interest are invalid.
The words “blind trust” have been thrown around a lot in recent weeks, but it’s worth explaining what that phrase really means. True blind trusts aim to shield politicians or other public figures from conflicts of interest (real or perceived) by ensuring that they have no control over their assets, or even know what those assets are.
A typical case works like this: Hypothetical Sen. Jane Johnson owns $2 million in stock in the tech company where she used to be an executive and an additional $3 million in stocks, bonds and other investments. She transfers her assets into a blind trust, overseen by an independent trustee. That trustee then sells the existing holdings (either all at once or over time) so that when Johnson has to vote on a bill affecting the tech industry — or even affecting her old company — she doesn’t know whether that vote could affect her personal finances.
But Trump’s situation is far from typical. Most of his wealth isn’t held in stocks or bonds that can be easily sold; it’s in a company that he owns and operates, it’s in buildings and golf courses around the world, and it’s in his personal brand (and the licensing deals based on it). Simply transferring his assets to a blind trust wouldn’t accomplish much as long as the company remained in business. “President Trump can’t un-know he owns Trump Tower,” Dillon said Wednesday.
To put his assets in a true blind trust, Trump would need to liquidate his assets by selling the company and its holdings, stripping his name off his hotels and resorts, and canceling his licensing deals. Dillon on Wednesday argued that such a plan would be impractical if not impossible. Some of her reasons boiled down to one: It would cost Trump a lot of money. She argued, for example, that if Trump sold his assets without retaining the rights to his brand, he would “greatly diminish the value of the assets and create a fire sale.” In other words, she said, the assets would be worth far less without Trump’s name on them.
But there are practical hurdles to a true blind trust even if you aren’t worried about Trump’s personal net worth. The process of selling his assets would take time, perhaps years. And because the sales would undoubtedly make headlines, Trump could easily keep track of what he still owned and what he didn’t, meaning that even then the trust wouldn’t be truly “blind.” (It would also create the strange situation of having a business named after the president of the United States but not controlled by him.)
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/no-one-has-a-good-plan-to-get-rid-of-trumps-conflicts-including-trump/ That being said, another really simple solution to prevent conflict of interest is simply not to elect a billionaire or anyone obscenely rich, and... Oh wait. I'm jocking but I'm serious. The idea that having made a shitton of money qualifies you for office is typically american and bat shit crazy. It's not limited to Trump, but i always cringe when i hear people complain about the porosity between politics and bug money. Hey, what about not voting for millionaires and even less for billionaires if you don't want your country to be a ploutocracy? Your US bashing aside, where there should be a difference is that wealth per se isn't a bad thing if you drop the revolutionary undertones. What we don't want is people using public office to enrich themselves and entangling policy with their own greed. There's an argument to be made that people who are independently comfortable are if anything in a position to be less susceptible to that. Well what you want is someone who works for the public good and in the interest of everyone. I don't think it's too marxist to say that if your lifegoal has been to make an obscene amount of money for yourself, it's unlikely your vision of a good society is based on the common good.
Also one of the great challenges of our time is inequalities. Not sure billionaires are really good at tackling those.
In general, i believe that the super rich should be kept as far as possible away from politics, simply because their interest and the interest of the majority (working class and middle class) don't align at all.
The closest to Trump i can think of in recent time is Berlusconi. On top of being one of the most embarassing time in Italian history, his time as PM has been one giant conflict of interest.
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Trump's kids are involved in his transition and probably his decision making as president. It's not okay for them to the be the ones managing the company.
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It will be interesting to see how Trump leverages his unique tactical position of 1) having heavily nebulous policies and 2) having no compunction whatsoever about bashing Congressional Republicans. GDP doesn't push 6%? Either he'll say the numbers are fake (likely) or Congressional Republicans and Paul Ryan didn't pass his stupendous plan so it's their fault (also likely).
(also, we've got a likely name for the ex-MI6 agent; looks like /pol/ definitely trolled themselves: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-38591382)
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