EPTOn November 10 2016 04:33 MyLovelyLurker wrote:
After Brexit we all woke up in the wrong timeline.
After Brexit we all woke up in the wrong timeline.
And Dark didn't even win Blizzcon, wtf timeline is this!?
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 6149
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Penev
28536 Posts
And Dark didn't even win Blizzcon, wtf timeline is this!? | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On November 10 2016 04:46 WhiteDog wrote: And people like this girl are partly responsible for this. If people have shitty ideas, then engage with them and discuss. There's reason to everything : the moral kabbal that some people in the left created in the last few years participated in the appearance of the "alt right". On a campus, you should discuss everything with everyone. Her twitter feed is a beautiful exemple of cognitive bias. "Those white men, they're sexist and racist and hating on us, and they elected him for that" : no, it's the economy stupid. I don't disagree with problems of communication in a general sense, but have you see alt-right places like /r/the_donald and 4chan? You're basically arguing that people should try and have reasonable discussions over Twitch Chat, except in this case everyone else in chat hates what you have to say on principal alone. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
Private email server Hiding pneumonia Calling potential voters deplorable Picking Kaine as VP. Making DWS a member of her campaign after she resigned in disgrace Ignoring the rust belt/taking white voters for granted. All of Trump's fuckups were bad, but Hillary had plenty of her own. And these are just the ones that are immediately apparent to me. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On November 10 2016 04:33 207aicila wrote: Curious if anyone here has seen this series of tweets (there are more, and more interesting ones from her in the replies) and what your thoughts are. https://twitter.com/SiyandaWrites/status/796286719058382848 It's definitely a trend that's been growing a lot recently on the internet but I always assumed it's more of a fringe internet minority and nothing something likely to leave a significant impact. People that support the alt-right should be shamed, it is a sexist, racist, anti-semitic fringe that consists of deluded con artists, trolls, bullies and neo-nazis. User was warned for this post | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
there is the regular army, then there are the guerrilla fighters. print newspaper is the former, social media and various ideological content producers the latter. cablenews falls somewhere in between. there is some boundaries on cable news, but the general effect is higher chaos. increasingly the political base turnout is driven by the online based activist media, and this is also where ideology is developed. when your electorate develops a rather elaborate ideology, stuff like GOTV gets extremely ineffective, so do poll tested lines. a lot of people have worldviews that generate very persistent bias. this area of online media is where hrc has maybe a 20% base, if you count the vox and slates etc as in her column. social media, given the widespread hostility vs her, i think her community is limited to the social justice circles. the general apathy for her despite presence of donald trump just shows the depth of contempt people had for HRC, this kind of deep, ideologically based division is different from the primary scars of 2008. it is something that can genuinely divide a party. despite the polling lead HRC was always running into a category 5 hurricane in terms of media and information. she has 0 or negative traction when she tries to get into policy, and she does not have a credible online presence to get her out there. it's always the same anti-hrc memes and stories. these media dynamics and real discontent with current society puts this election alongside other anti-establishment revolts around the world. it's really our version of the arab spring. regimes that successfully manage the internet media stream are surviving and prospering, those that ignore it have fallen. there is real temptation in some quarters to have some sort of active measure to manage online communities. but this is a severe threat to democracy. instead, a liberal democratic alternative must be found or else this shit probably doesn't work. | ||
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Half the Sky
Germany9029 Posts
On November 10 2016 04:08 On_Slaught wrote: Oh yeah and I'm curious to see if all these votes for legalizing marijuana are wasted time and efforts. If Giuliani or Christy become the Attorney General as we expect then they will send me clamp down on all of that stuff. I am curious. Maybe I'm being completely ignorant of the relationship between state and federal laws, but can someone break down how this would happen? Would this just require congressional approval to overrule all the state referendums or would it require actions through the courts? Or would it be somewhat similar to what happened with same sex marriage where it was legal in some states, illegal in others and then when it was cross-applicable or whatever, appellate/SCOTUS stepped in? I wouldn't have the faintest idea how the current court plus a Scalia clone would rule on that. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On November 10 2016 04:53 Nevuk wrote: Clinton's biggest mistakes : Private email server Hiding pneumonia Calling potential voters deplorable Picking Kaine as VP. Making DWS a member of her campaign after she resigned in disgrace Ignoring the rust belt/taking white voters for granted. All of Trump's fuckups were bad, but Hillary had plenty of her own. And these are just the ones that are immediately apparent to me. There's a lot of earlier DNC mistakes as well like not pushing harder on voter suppression issues which in hindsight probably should have been one of the forefront issues of the campaign. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On November 10 2016 04:51 Logo wrote: I don't disagree with problems of communication in a general sense, but have you see alt-right places like /r/the_donald and 4chan? You're basically arguing that people should try and have reasonable discussions over Twitch Chat, except in this case everyone else in chat hates what you have to say on principal alone. You can't have a reasonable argument on the internet in a place like a twitch chat or reddit where trolling is the rule, but in a class room or on a college campus, in face to face interactions, you can talk with anyone. When you insult someone and assimilate everything he or she says to his/her caracteristics (men or women, white or not, etc.) you lose all chance to actually engage in a good discussion. Positive and profound discussion need a certain level of abstraction and equality between agents. | ||
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RvB
Netherlands6313 Posts
On November 10 2016 04:51 Logo wrote: I don't disagree with problems of communication in a general sense, but have you see alt-right places like /r/the_donald and 4chan? You're basically arguing that people should try and have reasonable discussions over Twitch Chat, except in this case everyone else in chat hates what you have to say on principal alone. Calling them racist and mysognist, even if that's true, is only counter productive though. You're right that it's near impossible to convince people on the extremes that they're wrong but that doesn't mean it isn't the best option. | ||
Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
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207aicila
1237 Posts
On November 10 2016 04:48 CosmicSpiral wrote: No offense, but this sounds exactly like the "tinfoil hat conspiracy" attitudes perpetuated by the same fringe communities (or when Hofstadter would call the "paranoid style" in American politics). The fact that Mohutsiwa resorts to the most asinine, reductionist interpretation—Freudian mother complex + not getting laid—doesn't make it a plausible insight. I guess my question was more about how prevalent these people actually are in American society / how likely it would be for their specific niche to have had a palpable impact on the outcome of this election. But even then I'd only be inviting guesses, guesses hopefully more educated than my own, but guesses nonetheless. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On November 10 2016 04:56 WhiteDog wrote: You can't have a reasonable argument on the internet in a place like a twitch chat or reddit where trolling is the rule, but in a class room or on a college campus, in face to face interactions, you can talk with anyone. When you insult someone and assimilate everything he or she says to his/her caracteristics (men or women, white or not, etc.) you lose all chance to actually engage in a good discussion. Yeah, and I think that's where we agree. But from my perspective the alt right is a movement that's deeply seeded in online communities and has a much weaker physical presence. Someone who's actively on US campuses may disagree with that (would be interested to hear about it). Anyways with that perceptions that's why I scoff at the idea of engaging the alt right, the only forms they seem to occupy as an organizational force are ones where trolling is the rule. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada17791 Posts
On November 10 2016 04:53 Nevuk wrote: All of Trump's fuckups were bad, but Hillary had plenty of her own. And these are just the ones that are immediately apparent to me. i think when these super elite bullshit artists hit their 70s they lose just a tiny fraction of their intellectual prowess; they go from top notch choreographer to mediocre conman. i think that is what has become of Trump. imo, 10 or 15 years ago he was a much better bullshitter. of course it could also be the omnipresent 24/7 coverage that goes with campaigning for PRez. He just came off as much more believable when he was younger. | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On November 10 2016 04:59 Souma wrote: DNC has no one to blame but themselves. Really? I blame the DNC too but you don't think the people that, you know, actually voted for Orange Hitler deserve some of the blame? | ||
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CosmicSpiral
United States15275 Posts
On November 10 2016 04:53 Grumbels wrote: People that support the alt-right should be shamed, it is a sexist, racist, anti-semitic fringe that consists of deluded con artists, trolls, bullies and neo-nazis. As true as this may be, why are they now cited as instrumental to the results to the election? As long as a Trump presidency was judged impossible, the alt-right was the fringiest of fringe groups. Now that he's won, there was some vast conspiracy among disgruntled young white men to ensure his victory? This is almost the same rationale for the anti-Masonist movements in the 1780s and anti-Catholicism in the 1820s-1840s; shit, McCarthy was spouting the same garbage during the Red Scare. And we now know there was no evidence for those. On November 10 2016 04:59 207aicila wrote: I guess my question was more about how prevalent these people actually are in American society / how likely it would be for their specific niche to have had a palpable impact on the outcome of this election. But even then I'd only be inviting guesses, guesses hopefully more educated than my own, but guesses nonetheless. In terms of being far-far-right and Neo-Nazis and adamant on bringing back traditional masculinity? Probably not that many. But I'd guess there's a larger swath of people who were affected by some of those issues (especially on the issues of masculinity, globalization and multiculturalism), who didn't adapt extreme positions but were charmed by Trump nonetheless. Whether or not their claims are objectively true, the fact that the alt-right exists is reflective of social anxieties and concerns right now. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
it's not as simple as desperate people, but also a culture of anxiety and resistance against perceived injustice. a variety of data to support this, some from before the election. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On November 10 2016 04:53 Nevuk wrote: Clinton's biggest mistakes : Private email server Hiding pneumonia Calling potential voters deplorable Making DWS a member of her campaign after she resigned in disgrace Ignoring the rust belt/taking white voters for granted. All of Trump's fuckups were bad, but Hillary had plenty of her own. And these are just the ones that are immediately apparent to me. + Not distancing herself from the PPACA. Premium hikes that went out in the last 2 weeks cost her the suburbs. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On November 10 2016 04:59 Souma wrote: DNC has no one to blame but themselves. To be fair according to almost every metric out there what they were doing was working. Almost every single poll said they should have comfortably won this race. Perhaps the most interesting question going forward other than how Trump will do is how so many polls were so wrong. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On November 10 2016 04:55 Logo wrote: There's a lot of earlier DNC mistakes as well like not pushing harder on voter suppression issues which in hindsight probably should have been one of the forefront issues of the campaign. they did push, but you didn't see the effect, probably because official channels are jammed and the guerrillas are still going on about rigged primaries. the DNC isn't that powerful or influential in media terms even if they have a direct hookup with CNN etc. | ||
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