• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 20:04
CEST 02:04
KST 09:04
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202530RSL Season 1 - Final Week8[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16
Community News
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams2Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8Team TLMC #5 - Submission re-extension4
StarCraft 2
General
Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 RSL Revival patreon money discussion thread The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Esports World Cup 2025 - Final Player Roster Why doesnt SC2 scene costream tournaments
Tourneys
Esports World Cup 2025 Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Sea Duckling Open (Global, Bronze-Diamond) FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame
Brood War
General
BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Flash Announces (and Retracts) Hiatus From ASL Corsair Pursuit Micro?
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET The Casual Games of the Week Thread BWCL Season 63 Announcement
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile CCLP - Command & Conquer League Project
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 664 users

US Politics Mega-thread - Page 5133

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
Prev 1 5131 5132 5133 5134 5135 10093 Next
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Uldridge
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belgium4763 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-24 00:13:08
September 24 2016 00:10 GMT
#102641
Messed up post, my bad.
Taxes are for Terrans
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42640 Posts
September 24 2016 00:10 GMT
#102642
On September 24 2016 09:05 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2016 08:18 KwarK wrote:
On September 24 2016 08:07 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Privilege is anything that moves away from meritocracy.
Affirmative action and african americans entering college over Asian americans that scored hundreds higher in SATs are both examples of privilege.

Do you think the SAT scores are perfect representations of a meritocracy? Because for affirmative action to be moving away from a meritocracy, rather than a correction for an issue with the meritocracy, we would need the default to be a meritocracy.

If the number 0 was the expected outcome from a meritocracy but there was an external factor that modified the score of one group to -5 what you are doing is claiming that the -5 is actually the meritocratic outcome and that a +4 modifier for that group (bringing them back to -1) is undermining the meritocracy. Hopefully that explanation made sense.

Yes, a university entrance exam is the perfect example of meritocracy.People who have scored hundreds higher in SATs will be better engineers, scientists, doctors than the mediocre scorers.I don't see whats so controversial.External factors are irrelevant, race gender and sexual identity is irrelevant name is irrelevant all that should matter is score/result.

I was able to considerably boost my score when I took the GMAT by taking a prep course that would have cost over a thousand dollars had I not had it paid for me by work. Do you think that the GMAT is a meritocratic exam or one where the resources of the exam taker is a factor in the outcome?
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
September 24 2016 00:13 GMT
#102643
On September 24 2016 09:08 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2016 09:00 zlefin wrote:
On September 24 2016 08:55 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
On September 24 2016 08:25 Gorsameth wrote:
On September 24 2016 08:15 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
So the cop who shot the black teen in Charlotte was black.
70% of arrested rioters have out of state IDs.
Can we just agree this is just an excuse to loot and riot?

There is no systematic problem with US police forced. /s

Theyve got a tough job.Doesn't take away from the fact the black community needs to take realise many of it's problems come from within.Last month was Chicagos most violent in twenty years.And it wasn't the cops bringing the pain.78 homicides.More murders in Chicago than NYC and LA combined.Again it ain't the cops pushing those numbers so high...

I'm pretty sure they ARE aware of it; and they are working on that too. Problems get worked on simultaneously.

How are they working on it and what has been achieved?
Last time i checked black poverty rates had risen under Obama.I can't see how globalization and mass immigration helps the black communities already doing it tough?
Fill me in.

while there are global factors that affect it; most crime is a local problem, that has to be addressed at the local level.
There's lots of local efforts to work on these things; but crime is a never-ending struggle to deal with, and no great progress is made in general.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-24 00:29:45
September 24 2016 00:28 GMT
#102644
In other news, it looks like Obama may have lied about when he first learned of Hillary's use of her personal email server for state purposes.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 24 2016 00:32 GMT
#102645
On September 23 2016 17:16 ChristianS wrote:
But I wasn't really looking to pick a fight either. I don't really long to be a civil rights crusader. The 50's and 60's sound awful, and I'm glad I didn't have to be around for it. I honestly wish that we were having a relatively normal election between, like, Tim Kaine and Jeb Bush, and I could tune out and read the occasional headline without click on it and maybe get around to registering to vote if I had nothing better to do, but I probably never would because I wouldn't care that much who won.

This part is pretty illustrative. Jeb Bush particularly is the kind of establishment candidate everybody likes: stands for nothing, doesn't fight for anything. To me it's looking at the looming debt, lawlessness, and bureaucratic control and deciding that everything fine, let's have some more of it! I even get some of the wistful feelings for an area of boring politics. Not for today's age, try the 1950s.

Instead we've got a large, disgruntled population of lower- and middle-class white people who feel that they've been wronged by the world. They think they used to have some kind of glory and power, but now their manufacturing jobs are fading away and they're losing their privileged place in the world, and they feel betrayed and unsafe and powerless. We've got a demagogue candidate who's appealing to this population by telling them that they lost their power because of Mexicans and Muslims and China. He's parading around families of people that were raped or murdered by illegal Mexicans to gin up a rage against these foreigners that are raping and murdering their wives and children. He's saying the whole world is laughing at them because they don't win any more. And he's promising them that if they support him, then by the time he's done, nobody will laugh at them again.

Lest we forget, we had a political class of BOTH parties that declared they would fight for their jobs and bring back all this economic growth and prosperity. You try explaining that most manufacturing jobs aren't coming back when you've lied for your entire political career. The backwards trade view that dominated both Trump & Bernie's campaigns is primarily the result of bad education and political lies that eroded people's faith in government.

This is not a drill, this is how real life racial persecution gets started. This is the type of movement that used to lead to pogroms and lynchings and blood libel. People get so caught up in the movement and the propaganda and the cult of personality around a charismatic leader that they stop paying attention to facts and policy, to the point that you can explain to them that the crime rate is down, not up, that they lost their manufacturing jobs to the inexorable forces of globalism and no one can bring them back, and that illegal immigrants actually commit violent crime at a lower rate than the rest of the population, but it has absolutely no bearing on how they feel.

Not by a long shot. The reason we get stories about illegal alien rapists in the country is nobody cares about securing the border. The reason we get repeat offenders is the release policies and deportation policies and sanctuary city laws create a catch and release system. If this issue got even a fraction of the news dedicated to black men shot by police, justified and unjustified, it wouldn't be an issue because the American people would demand an end. But it's awfully inconvenient for comprehensive immigration plans and amnesty/citizenship plans to deal with people that have nine previous felonies and one deportation being arrested for another crime. Two prior deportations on record, but now he's back for felony sexual penetration with force.

Now do you have a heart? Would you sooner go up to a grieving black mother and tell her that her son deserved to die, or a grieving white mother and tell her that the illegal alien that killed her daughter is a member of a group with lower-than-average crime rates? When you show callous disregard for every anecdote of another death or rape, that's what builds resentment. Sanctuary cities are never brought up by your Tim Caines and Jeb Bushes, and they are one part of letting criminal aliens go free and flee deportation.

Seems like you're throwing out a lot of punches at stuff I'm not sure if you're assuming I support. I'm also not sure what's meant by terms like "racial realism." It seems to denote a position which acknowledges the realities of race (about which this "regressive left" is presumably in denial), but I'm not sure what realities you think those are. A white supremacist might say they're a "racial realist" for acknowledging that white people are better than black people. An SJW might call themselves a "racial realist" for acknowledging the power dynamics between whites and various minorities in America today, such that a "color-blind" approach can't solve racial issues. I assume you're in neither of these camps, so you probably mean something more along the lines of acknowledging black culture has some toxic trends which contribute to blacks' underprivileged state (which the regressive left insists is a racist position)? I'm only guessing at your meaning here.

I'm just using as mushy of a term I could find to contrast with the similar passage you used originally. Progress and racial equality are in the eyes of the beholder. How much discrimination in job applicants is permissible to achieve racial quotas? Is disparate impact alone enough to prove racism and discrimination? How do you square equal protection under the law and disparate impact provisions? It's a very easy thing to believe in a utopia of an "inevitable march towards progress and greater racial equality," but when it comes down to policy, a lot of it looks like pushing for the hardest discriminatory hiring systems and promotion rules, throwing out good candidates for candidates with the right skin color in the name of equality.

I say racial realism to call attention to the mushiness typifying the debate (apparently the alt-right has already defined it and added it to their lexicon--oops). After all, who can be against progress and racial equality or antiracist attitudes? Let me just keep it simple. Staying in reality and approaching race with a healthy attitude means reducing and eliminating how many issues we observe purely through the lens of race. It's police training on brutality and firearm discipline first, not white cops shooting unarmed black teens. Fix the problem, don't racialize the problem for political power and influence. Understand that making everything about race demonizes whites and white hispanics and poisons cooperation on real issues. Your talk about Trump inciting future racial persecution is a good case in point. Fix the issues and let tempers go back down, don't pretend the man in front of the movement is using race for nefarious purposes.

On September 23 2016 21:18 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2016 18:42 Acrofales wrote:
On September 23 2016 17:16 ChristianS wrote:
On September 23 2016 15:49 Danglars wrote:
On September 23 2016 15:03 ChristianS wrote:
Jesus this thread is depressing sometimes.

The last ~24 hours of discussion have put a sobering thought into my head, and I wonder what you guys think of it. Basically, in the last 50 or so years, there's been a strong anti-racist movement in the country as a whole. Laws that discriminate against blacks became widely considered unacceptable, public figures are shunned for expressing racist ideas or using racist epithets. The implied justification was that we as a society were making a concerted effort to eliminate racism as much as possible, and drive whatever resistant strains that survived to . Considered with other historical moves towards equality (elimination of slavery, blacks joining the military, Brown v. Board, etc.), it fit nicely with an overarching narrative of racial progress.

Maybe this is just a problem with anecdotal evidence, but it seems to me those attitudes are completely different in a lot of people today. Hardened Trump supporters often try to deny that Trump is a racist, but far more frequently I see people that just don't seem to care much. They might even lean toward thinking he probably is, but it's just not that important an issue. This is really baffling to me, since for my whole life there's been a widespread cultural agreement that overt racism is one of the ugliest sides of human civilization and absolutely cannot be tolerated, but in the broad view of history, racism is absolutely the norm. Not always as bad as early American South racism, but it's always been pretty normal to distrust people with different cultural and ethnic background than you, treat them worse, value their life less than that of your family or friends or tribe members. I always figured that was just part of progress – unlike humans for most of history, we have cars and refrigerators and computers and a prevailing cultural understanding that racism is bad.

It's a nice stroll through memory lane, but you make a sudden leap into modern times by contrasting the civil rights era with Trump and his supporters. Sit at the back of the bus was racism. Separate eating establishments based on race was racism. Immigration policy isn't. Political invective on several issues isn't (though abrasive speech will still cause others to bristle no matter the subject). You're right to call it anecdotal, and it's intensely subjective. You'll see the comparisons to late 1800s racism and xenophobia, others will see you as a wannabe crusader longing for a bygone era but without a real civil rights cause today.

Worth noting I never said Trump's immigration policy means he's racist. I was honestly more focused on Trump himself. Being prosecuted by Nixon's Justice Department for really explicitly discriminating against black tenants in his hotels back in the 70's. That stuff by Jack O'Donnell about how when he was president of Trump Plaza Hotel and Casino, Trump went off about not wanting a black guy as an accountant because blacks are lazy, and he only wants Jews counting his money. Calling Mexicans rapists. Those shitty stereotypes he embraced talking to the Republican Jewish Coalition. Y'know, that stuff.

But I wasn't really looking to pick a fight either. I don't really long to be a civil rights crusader. The 50's and 60's sound awful, and I'm glad I didn't have to be around for it. I honestly wish that we were having a relatively normal election between, like, Tim Kaine and Jeb Bush, and I could tune out and read the occasional headline without click on it and maybe get around to registering to vote if I had nothing better to do, but I probably never would because I wouldn't care that much who won.

Instead we've got a large, disgruntled population of lower- and middle-class white people who feel that they've been wronged by the world. They think they used to have some kind of glory and power, but now their manufacturing jobs are fading away and they're losing their privileged place in the world, and they feel betrayed and unsafe and powerless. We've got a demagogue candidate who's appealing to this population by telling them that they lost their power because of Mexicans and Muslims and China. He's parading around families of people that were raped or murdered by illegal Mexicans to gin up a rage against these foreigners that are raping and murdering their wives and children. He's saying the whole world is laughing at them because they don't win any more. And he's promising them that if they support him, then by the time he's done, nobody will laugh at them again.

This is not a drill, this is how real life racial persecution gets started. This is the type of movement that used to lead to pogroms and lynchings and blood libel. People get so caught up in the movement and the propaganda and the cult of personality around a charismatic leader that they stop paying attention to facts and policy, to the point that you can explain to them that the crime rate is down, not up, that they lost their manufacturing jobs to the inexorable forces of globalism and no one can bring them back, and that illegal immigrants actually commit violent crime at a lower rate than the rest of the population, but it has absolutely no bearing on how they feel.
My sobering thought was this: what if we're not on an inevitable march toward progress and greater racial equality? What if the anti-racist attitudes of the last 50 years aren't a lasting cultural achievement, but just a temporary backlash against the ugly racism of the 40's and 50's? People saw how hideous that Nazi movement was, and they saw the horrible treatment of blacks in the South, and the lynching of Emmett Till, and the dogs and firehoses deployed against civil rights protesters, and for a while it became fashionable to be against racism.

But now that all that stuff isn't such recent memory, racism takes on all of the advantages that made it prevalent in human society before. Scapegoating is an easy way to feel better about your problems. Stereotyping is almost inescapable in the psychology of how humans understand the world. Many apparent virtues that people are encouraged to cultivate (e.g. loyalty, empathy) can subconsciously promote tribalism (e.g. loyalty involves favoring those you're close to over those you're not, empathy encourages greater connection to people who are more like you). Racial minorities are often small enough in number that society can get weird impressions of them simply from having too small a sample size, and once a weird (especially negative) bias gets in place, confirmation bias and self-fulfilling prophecy effects tend to maintain or expand that bias.

I've been hoping all the bigotry of the Trump movement would be remembered by history as a weird spike of bigotry as the white American middle class came to terms with several realities it had been in denial about for years. But what if history remembers these past ~50 years as that brief period where American society was largely anti-racist?

My sobering thought is this: what if the current campaign against out-of-fashion ideas and racial realism won't be reversed for many years? What if the zealots of today, the current victors of the culture war, won't realize how hideous their own movement has become, nor how the '60s rebellion against authority became a puritanical persecution from authority (cultural leadership brought to you by Your Moral Betters™). Scapegoating and stereotyping of Trump supporters for social ills could continue, as much as I wish it would not. It is intensely psychological and the fight in every generation is to inspire the better angels of our nature.

I'm hoping the atmosphere of moral scolds today are later regarded as a weird period of American history when people embraced racializing every issue to the detriment of true debate on the issues. When language was so bastardized and social media lynch mobs so emboldened that every political opinion was viewed by the color difference of the author & subject's skin. I look with some hope to the next generation. Today's left-leaning culture responds to criticism like a priest to sacrilege, and even young people today can see how bizarre it acts. It's far more likely that today's regress, disguised as progress, continues to win and that's a very sobering thought indeed.

Seems like you're throwing out a lot of punches at stuff I'm not sure if you're assuming I support. I'm also not sure what's meant by terms like "racial realism." It seems to denote a position which acknowledges the realities of race (about which this "regressive left" is presumably in denial), but I'm not sure what realities you think those are. A white supremacist might say they're a "racial realist" for acknowledging that white people are better than black people. An SJW might call themselves a "racial realist" for acknowledging the power dynamics between whites and various minorities in America today, such that a "color-blind" approach can't solve racial issues. I assume you're in neither of these camps, so you probably mean something more along the lines of acknowledging black culture has some toxic trends which contribute to blacks' underprivileged state (which the regressive left insists is a racist position)? I'm only guessing at your meaning here.

But you seem to be opposed to much of the social backlash that currently exists against people and positions viewed as "racist," and I assume you don't think we shouldn't stigmatize actual racism, so you must think the labels of racist and bigot have been over-applied by the left. I might even agree with that. Online articles trying to teach white people about "microagressions" and the like can be alright when they come from a place of earnestly trying to help whites understand how to make racial minorities feel more at ease and less alienated, but when they come in the form of condemning anyone who uses the question "So, where are you from?" in small talk as Grand Dragon of the KKK, I think it weakens the label of "racist" and makes it easier for actual racists to hide behind the cover of just being "politically incorrect." A lot of people that use terms like "cultural appropriation" and "gentrification" to explain how white people are literally Hitler are being sloppy in their reasoning, and mostly just making people think it's okay to be skeptical that they could possibly ever be racist.

So I think you've assumed that I'm a member of that club, and I'm really not. Back in saner times, most of my online arguments were with those very people. But that group mostly just whines and blogs about Miley Cyrus appropriating this or that. This ethnocentrist movement wants to take over the world. I was hoping that, based on a progress-based view of racial equality, America had come far enough that it could tell the difference between telling an off-color joke to your friends (i.e. political incorrectness) and accusing Mexico of deliberately sending rapists across the border (i.e. racism). I was wrong, thus I am rethinking my assumption that racial equality has steadily improved over time and will only keep getting better.


I think this is the first opinion since the "racism war" started about 20 pages back that is actually worth reading.


His post is the saner and nicer version of Kwark's 40% of America is racist posts. And it's unsurprising to me that he, like everyone else on the other side of the issue, struggles with this part of Danglars' post:

Show nested quote +
My sobering thought is this: what if the current campaign against out-of-fashion ideas and racial realism won't be reversed for many years? What if the zealots of today, the current victors of the culture war, won't realize how hideous their own movement has become, nor how the '60s rebellion against authority became a puritanical persecution from authority (cultural leadership brought to you by Your Moral Betters™). Scapegoating and stereotyping of Trump supporters for social ills could continue, as much as I wish it would not. It is intensely psychological and the fight in every generation is to inspire the better angels of our nature.

I'm hoping the atmosphere of moral scolds today are later regarded as a weird period of American history when people embraced racializing every issue to the detriment of true debate on the issues. When language was so bastardized and social media lynch mobs so emboldened that every political opinion was viewed by the color difference of the author & subject's skin. I look with some hope to the next generation. Today's left-leaning culture responds to criticism like a priest to sacrilege, and even young people today can see how bizarre it acts. It's far more likely that today's regress, disguised as progress, continues to win and that's a very sobering thought indeed.
The struggle is real. I always have hope for the newer names to have the light bulb turn on and step into somebody else's shoes.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13924 Posts
September 24 2016 00:33 GMT
#102646
On September 24 2016 09:05 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2016 08:43 Sermokala wrote:
How is that an argument that helps you though? Its like saying the term culture is over-expansive of the collective social accomplishments of one group. Ofc it is beacuse it is beacuse its hard to explain basic things without expanding terms to mean many different things. Society is vastly over-expansive term used to describe the shared enviorment that humans congregate togeather in.

Racism inherently effects your objectiveity so telling people that you're going to have trouble with it with racism involved isn't saying anything at all.

Because if we accept the premise that society teaches people to be white supremacists (or anti-black or whatever), then everyone in that society will have been taught to be a white supremacist (or anti-black or whatever) and hold those beliefs, consciously or not (and I add the consciously or not because that's what's being argued about me). So all that's left to differentiate the racists from the non-racists under this expansive definition of racism is mere virtue signalling. The people who recognize that society has taught them racist things and acknowledge that they sometimes act on what society has taught them are not racists, whereas the denier (ie yours truly) are still racists. Like I said earlier, this is an absurd dichotomy that further illustrates the absurdity of the over-expansive definition of racism.

How is it absurd? People treat people of a different skin color differently then another skin color. Its not obviously beacuse they don't like the color of their skin but because they don't like the group of people who is easily definable based on the color of their skin. If we took the time to make up words for every single thing people do to hurt others based on the words they use to describe someone else then we wouldn't have time to communicate in any way. So we use the term racism to collect all the things people do to another person based on the group of people that they represent that they belong to that they are alike based on the skin of their color. Thats over-expansive for sheer convince and not an argument for or against you being racist its just you being werid on basic communication.

People call you racist because you do racist things and arn't sorry for them. thats the difference between people who reorganize that they're racist and try not to be and people like you who regonize that they're racist and don't see a reason not to be racist. I get it you're a lawyer and are trying to attack the term racist beacuse its the easy out but there isn't anything there other then you looking dumb for not understanding how words work.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
RealityIsKing
Profile Joined August 2016
613 Posts
September 24 2016 00:36 GMT
#102647
Okay I think there are OF COURSE racism in America.

That's not even debatable.

But how do we solve that?
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13924 Posts
September 24 2016 00:38 GMT
#102648
On September 24 2016 09:36 RealityIsKing wrote:
Okay I think there are OF COURSE racism in America.

That's not even debatable.

But how do we solve that?

The first step to change is awareness. But we're stuck on that and I doubt we'll get past that step as a species ever.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
RealityIsKing
Profile Joined August 2016
613 Posts
September 24 2016 00:38 GMT
#102649
On September 24 2016 09:38 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2016 09:36 RealityIsKing wrote:
Okay I think there are OF COURSE racism in America.

That's not even debatable.

But how do we solve that?

The first step to change is awareness. But we're stuck on that and I doubt we'll get past that step as a species ever.


I think EVERYBODY are aware of racism but there are lot of people that want to censoring speech on it.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 24 2016 00:49 GMT
#102650
Wait, so Obama wasn't as surprised as anyone when news came out that Clinton was using a private email server? You don't say!

Now these emails--alleged by Clinton not to contain classified information and deleted by the thousands because they were on stuff like yoga--are being withheld from FOIA because of presidential communication privilege. So rich.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
September 24 2016 00:50 GMT
#102651
On September 24 2016 09:38 RealityIsKing wrote:
I think EVERYBODY are aware of racism but there are lot of people that want to censoring speech on it.

The problem is a mix of denialism on one side and overzealous association on the other. A lot of the people who are racists just fall into the "well that guy is worse than me and he's a real racist, so I'm not" thinking just to separate themselves from the discussion, while on the other side, there are people who are so caught up in accusing people of racism that they lose sight of their original message.
Moderator
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-24 00:52:20
September 24 2016 00:51 GMT
#102652
On September 24 2016 09:36 RealityIsKing wrote:
Okay I think there are OF COURSE racism in America.

That's not even debatable.

But how do we solve that?

there is no single solution; there are many different problems with many different sources.
As with all problems, it's a great long-term struggle. And we solve it by thinking, learning, discussing, and analyzing.
Offhand I don't know the specifics much more than that; though i'm sure it wouldn't be that hard to start finding long lists of possibilities for what to do.


just always remember: there's loudmouth idiots on all sides, and you hear a lot about what they're saying; you don't hear the reasonable people nearly as much, even though they're a lot more numerous.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Uldridge
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Belgium4763 Posts
September 24 2016 00:58 GMT
#102653
You know what I want from the people using the overarching term "racism" and putting it in sentences like "that's racist" and "you're racist"? I want an explanation from them on how they see racism as and what it actually entails on the more nuanced parts of them.
Forget about the blatant cases, I want the ones where you see a white man ordering a burger in a McDonalds from a black person and then complaining about the amount of sesame seeds on the bun racism. But for real, give me the more nuanced parts of racism guys, because I just don't seem to understand it, because all I ever see in this debate is people slinging vague terms. Let's get concrete!
Taxes are for Terrans
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-24 01:07:02
September 24 2016 00:59 GMT
#102654
On September 24 2016 09:05 xDaunt wrote:
Because if we accept the premise that society teaches people to be white supremacists (or anti-black or whatever), then everyone in that society will have been taught to be a white supremacist (or anti-black or whatever) and hold those beliefs, consciously or not (and I add the consciously or not because that's what's being argued about me). So all that's left to differentiate the racists from the non-racists under this expansive definition of racism is mere virtue signalling. The people who recognize that society has taught them racist things and acknowledge that they sometimes act on what society has taught them are not racists, whereas the denier (ie yours truly) are still racists. Like I said earlier, this is an absurd dichotomy that further illustrates the absurdity of the over-expansive definition of racism.

Intrinsically, I think the idea behind "everybody is a little racist" and "white privilege" and similar ideas isn't to put people into buckets of "racist" and "not racist", but just to make *everybody* (whether they're "racists" or not) a little more aware of how their perspective might color other people's impressions of the things they say or do, and to get everyone to be a little bit more introspective of how they treat people of other races. The goal is to educate and encourage introspection, which I don't think this is an ignoble goal.

The problem is that "racist" is a word that has too many negative connotations and people just get hung up on the term, when applying negative monikers to people isn't the point at all. People on the left use it as a way to legitimize their overuse of a negative label and apply the label to people whose ideas they don't like, while people on the right get hung up on the term and just miss the point of what those ideas are about.

EDIT: Also, as I mentioned before in a discussion a while back, the message of "you as a white person don't have the necessary perspective to decide what things you say/do might be perceived as racist by people of color" gets a little muddled when the person delivering the message is not a PoC, but a probably-white SJW on the internet who likewise doesn't have that perspective either.
Moderator
RealityIsKing
Profile Joined August 2016
613 Posts
September 24 2016 01:04 GMT
#102655
Racism isn't exactly solved by demonizing white people in school.

Racism is solved by going on the street and destroying your neighbors' property.

Institutional racism is solved in couple of ways:

1)Peacefully writing letters and visiting your local political offices and then increase intensity as time goes on.

2)For the ones getting discriminated to get your yourself a sustainable skills. Not necessary even going to colleges. But even becoming mechanics, electrician, accounting, science lab assistant, etc.

3)Do NOT under any circumstances hurt others or take unnecessary drugs while you are trying to achieve your goals.

4)Take care of your kids.

xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 24 2016 01:05 GMT
#102656
On September 24 2016 09:33 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2016 09:05 xDaunt wrote:
On September 24 2016 08:43 Sermokala wrote:
How is that an argument that helps you though? Its like saying the term culture is over-expansive of the collective social accomplishments of one group. Ofc it is beacuse it is beacuse its hard to explain basic things without expanding terms to mean many different things. Society is vastly over-expansive term used to describe the shared enviorment that humans congregate togeather in.

Racism inherently effects your objectiveity so telling people that you're going to have trouble with it with racism involved isn't saying anything at all.

Because if we accept the premise that society teaches people to be white supremacists (or anti-black or whatever), then everyone in that society will have been taught to be a white supremacist (or anti-black or whatever) and hold those beliefs, consciously or not (and I add the consciously or not because that's what's being argued about me). So all that's left to differentiate the racists from the non-racists under this expansive definition of racism is mere virtue signalling. The people who recognize that society has taught them racist things and acknowledge that they sometimes act on what society has taught them are not racists, whereas the denier (ie yours truly) are still racists. Like I said earlier, this is an absurd dichotomy that further illustrates the absurdity of the over-expansive definition of racism.

How is it absurd? People treat people of a different skin color differently then another skin color. Its not obviously beacuse they don't like the color of their skin but because they don't like the group of people who is easily definable based on the color of their skin. If we took the time to make up words for every single thing people do to hurt others based on the words they use to describe someone else then we wouldn't have time to communicate in any way. So we use the term racism to collect all the things people do to another person based on the group of people that they represent that they belong to that they are alike based on the skin of their color. Thats over-expansive for sheer convince and not an argument for or against you being racist its just you being werid on basic communication.


It's absurd because you're using a stigmatized term to label a whole of bunch people by arbitrarily expanding the definition of that term beyond the original bounds from which it acquired the term's stigma. Like I have argued before, it's completely counter-productive and poisonous to the debate.

People call you racist because you do racist things and arn't sorry for them. thats the difference between people who reorganize that they're racist and try not to be and people like you who regonize that they're racist and don't see a reason not to be racist. I get it you're a lawyer and are trying to attack the term racist beacuse its the easy out but there isn't anything there other then you looking dumb for not understanding how words work.


For the past several pages I have been trying to get people to explain to me why what I have said is racist, and I've gotten nothing back except piss-poor definitions of racism and circular logic such as the bolded quote above. I'm wildly unsatisfied by the fruits of my inquiries. My balls are blue. Maybe you can do better. Lay out the case for why I am racist, which should include a definition of racism and an explanation for why specific posts of my are racist within that definition.

Where's Igne? I seem to recall him doing a decent job making the argument some time ago.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 24 2016 01:07 GMT
#102657
On September 24 2016 09:59 TheYango wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 24 2016 09:05 xDaunt wrote:
Because if we accept the premise that society teaches people to be white supremacists (or anti-black or whatever), then everyone in that society will have been taught to be a white supremacist (or anti-black or whatever) and hold those beliefs, consciously or not (and I add the consciously or not because that's what's being argued about me). So all that's left to differentiate the racists from the non-racists under this expansive definition of racism is mere virtue signalling. The people who recognize that society has taught them racist things and acknowledge that they sometimes act on what society has taught them are not racists, whereas the denier (ie yours truly) are still racists. Like I said earlier, this is an absurd dichotomy that further illustrates the absurdity of the over-expansive definition of racism.

Intrinsically, I think the idea behind "everybody is a little racist" and "white privilege" and similar ideas isn't to put people into buckets of "racist" and "not racist", but just to make *everybody* (whether they're "racists" or not) a little more aware of how their perspective might color other people's impressions of the things they say or do, and to get everyone to be a little bit more introspective of how they treat people of other races. The goal is to educate and encourage introspection, which I don't think this is an ignoble goal.

The problem is that "racist" is a word that has too many negative connotations and people just get hung up on the term, when applying negative monikers to people isn't the point at all. People on the left use it as a way to legitimize their overuse of a negative label and apply the label to people whose ideas they don't like, while people on the right get hung up on the term and just miss the point of what those ideas are about.

EDIT: Also, as I mentioned before in a discussion a while back, the message of "you as a white person don't have the necessary perspective to decide what things you say/do might be perceived as racist by people of color" gets a little muddled when the person delivering the message is not a PoC, but a probably-white SJW on the internet who likewise doesn't have that perspective either.


See, Yango gets it.
TheYango
Profile Joined September 2008
United States47024 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-24 01:14:31
September 24 2016 01:13 GMT
#102658
I get where people are going when they say things like "society teaches white supremacy", but you have to think about how people are going to take it when you say that: the statement is so absurdly reductive that you aren't going to encourage introspection that way because people are just going to react overly-defensively to what you say. Then you're going to get people fighting over the term racism and what it does and doesn't mean rather than thinking about what they should and shouldn't be doing.

It's actually pretty ironic. The core message here is to teach people to be a little more introspective and think carefully about the things they say and do, and how they're perceived by people of color. But the message is lost because the people delivering it aren't thinking carefully enough about how what they say is perceived by the "racists" they're preaching to.
Moderator
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42640 Posts
September 24 2016 01:22 GMT
#102659
xDaunt, you refer to black people as vermin. I'm really not sure why you keep coming back to this "prove I had racism in my heart when I said that" shit.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 24 2016 01:29 GMT
#102660
On September 24 2016 10:22 KwarK wrote:
xDaunt, you refer to black people as vermin. I'm really not sure why you keep coming back to this "prove I had racism in my heart when I said that" shit.

We have been over that one already. That's not what I said, and you know it. Though I have no doubt that you wished I said it in your sick little world. Go troll someone else. I'm through with you.
Prev 1 5131 5132 5133 5134 5135 10093 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 9h 56m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Nina 0
StarCraft: Brood War
Hyuk 1074
NaDa 71
Aegong 38
Dota 2
monkeys_forever241
LuMiX0
League of Legends
syndereN508
Counter-Strike
Fnx 1342
flusha386
Coldzera 213
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox295
AZ_Axe108
Other Games
tarik_tv8861
Grubby2293
Day[9].tv1124
shahzam567
C9.Mang0276
ViBE207
Maynarde156
Livibee76
Liquid`Ken5
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1211
BasetradeTV30
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 15 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• RyuSc2 60
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota22278
League of Legends
• Doublelift5201
Other Games
• Scarra1707
• Day9tv1124
Upcoming Events
Esports World Cup
9h 56m
ByuN vs Zoun
SHIN vs TriGGeR
Cyan vs ShoWTimE
Rogue vs HeRoMaRinE
Clem vs Solar
Reynor vs Maru
herO vs Cure
Serral vs Classic
Esports World Cup
1d 9h
Esports World Cup
2 days
CranKy Ducklings
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
CSO Cup
3 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
3 days
Bonyth vs Sziky
Dewalt vs Hawk
Hawk vs QiaoGege
Sziky vs Dewalt
Mihu vs Bonyth
Zhanhun vs QiaoGege
QiaoGege vs Fengzi
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
4 days
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Online Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL Xiamen Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL20 Non-Korean Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
SEL Season 2 Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
FEL Cracov 2025
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.