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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
iPlaY.NettleS
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Australia4329 Posts
September 12 2016 08:10 GMT
#99301
On September 12 2016 14:38 bo1b wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2016 14:27 plasmidghost wrote:
*psst*
Are you concerned about the health of your party's candidate? Worried by Trump's obviously fake, typo-riddled "doctor's note" and his incoherent, demented rambling? Disturbed by Clinton collapsing and covering up pneumonia for days?
Well, great news. Gary Johnson is a triathlete who completed three Ironmans and summited the tallest mountain on every continent, including Everest.

I'm getting the picture of a man that has grown comfortable in a well developed nation not appreciating the things a large government can and does do.

Stuff like spending $850 billion bailing out "too big to fail" banks? 4-6 trillion on the Iraq and Afghan wars? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/study-iraq-afghan-war-costs-to-top-4-trillion/2013/03/28/b82a5dce-97ed-11e2-814b-063623d80a60_story.html

Combine those two figures and thats 1/3 total US debt, that taxpayers need to pay higher taxes to underwrite and pay interest on.And for what? Even Obamas pillar of big government, Obamacare, is a total disaster with providers jumping ship every month...

Wash Post : Obamacare disaster will be Obamas enduring legacy
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/obamacare-disaster-will-be-obamas-enduring-domestic-legacy/2016/04/25/a8c09b38-0ae4-11e6-8ab8-9ad050f76d7d_story.html?utm_term=.055a408e9ee2

Bloomberg : Obamacare in big trouble as insurers tire of losing money
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-17/obamacare-s-in-trouble-as-insurers-tire-of-losing-money

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7PvoI6gvQs
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
September 12 2016 09:16 GMT
#99302


Looks to me like the reptilian is losing control of it's host.

+ Show Spoiler +
Also very lame of me to make fun of someone's health condition but w/e.
sorry for dem one liners
ACrow
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6583 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-12 10:03:20
September 12 2016 10:02 GMT
#99303
On September 12 2016 14:52 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2016 14:27 plasmidghost wrote:
*psst*
Are you concerned about the health of your party's candidate? Worried by Trump's obviously fake, typo-riddled "doctor's note" and his incoherent, demented rambling? Disturbed by Clinton collapsing and covering up pneumonia for days?
Well, great news. Gary Johnson is a triathlete who completed three Ironmans and summited the tallest mountain on every continent, including Everest.


Let's just hope he never goes hiking in Aleppo

To be fair, he admitted to his ignorance and promised to do better. I prefer honesty to the lying and anti-intellectualism of a Trump any day.
Get off my lawn, young punks
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9113 Posts
September 12 2016 12:18 GMT
#99304
It's baffling that Trump supporters here bring up concern about Obama in regards to America's international reputation

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18824 Posts
September 12 2016 12:30 GMT
#99305
Although Bardack said her patient was on the way to recovery, the diagnosis of pneumonia may have left some voters wondering: Isn’t pneumonia, after all, a serious health concern?

The short answer, at the moment — based on the limited available information about Clinton’s case and viewed independently of any unknown other health issues she may or may not face — is no.

“At this point, there is no reason to believe that Secretary Clinton will be disabled” by pneumonia, American Lung Association scientific adviser Norman H. Edelman told The Post by phone Sunday night.

The long answer to pneumonia’s seriousness begins more than a hundred years ago, when pneumococcal bacteria were discovered in the 1880s. Near the dawn of the previous century, that disease had replaced consumption, or what we would now call tuberculosis, as the primary cause of death in cities such as Chicago, according to Canadian physician William Osler. He made a scrupulous study of the disease and described it in almost poetic terms. In 1901, he wrote, “The most widespread and fatal of all acute infectious diseases, pneumonia, is now the ‘Captain of the Men of Death.’”

Osler also observed that pneumonia frequently struck those whose health was already compromised. He gave the illness another name, “the old man’s friend,” as it was a terminal — though by standards of the time, painless — affliction among the elderly. As it were, Osler would get to befriend the disease personally. He succumbed to pneumonia in 1919.

Had he lived for two more decades, the doctor would have seen penicillin change the world. After World War II, the development of the drug and other antibiotics slashed the disease’s mortality rate to nearly a third, compared with the early 1900s. Pneumonia fell from its perch at the top of lethal causes, though not very far. Together with influenza, the disease was still the eighth-leading cause of death in the United States in 2013. That year, it had a mortality rate of 17 deaths per 100,000 people, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Death remains a part of the pneumonia spectrum. Not all pneumonias, though, are created equally.

“The problem is we have one word for a disease that comes in lots of different iterations,” Edelman said.

At its most basic, pneumonia simply means that a germ has inflamed the lung’s air sacs. Cold viruses infect the nose and throat; bronchitis concerns the airways; and pneumonias afflict the dark, wet and warm parts of the lung itself. Making matters more complicated, the pathogens chewing into the lung tissue could be any one of a motley crew of bacteria, viruses or fungi.

The severity of pneumonia is as broad as its possible culprits. At the far end lies a mild disease. The illness is known colloquially as walking pneumonia, so named because the disease rarely knocks anyone out of commission and into bed. Here is likely where we find Clinton, at least based on what her campaign has revealed so far.

The CDC estimates that 2 million people a year fall sick with such milder forms of pneumonia. “Developing walking pneumonia does not mean you have poor health,” Stanford University pulmonologist Mark Nicolls said in an interview with The Post. “Young and healthy people develop walking pneumonia.” It is possible there are even more cases than that CDC estimates, too, as walking pneumonia is difficult to diagnose. Symptoms rarely stray from coughing, fever, fatigue and other average maladies.

If Clinton indeed has walking pneumonia, there is a decent chance — odds range between 1 to 50 and 1 to 5 — that the culprit is a bug named Mycoplasma pneumoniae. Among bacteria, M. pneumoniae is an oddity. It is both exceptionally small — one of the smallest organisms on Earth — and unusually vulnerable, as it lacks the cell walls that sheath most other bacteria. As far as is known, it is an exclusive human parasite, unable to reproduce outside warm and wet human organs. M. pneumoniae is spread person to person, through droplets expelled through the respiratory tract.

But that is just one possibility. “The bugs that cause pneumonia are common,” Edelman said. “Lots of people carry those bugs in their nose and throat.” (This was about as close as an expert would speculate about the risk factor of shaking sweaty hands by the millions on the campaign trail.)

It is too soon to say with certainty if M. pneumoniae or any other microorganism is responsible for Clinton’s pneumonia. The laboratory tests to determine a type of mild pneumonia, in fact, frequently take longer that the disease itself lasts.

Even the fact that Clinton is taking antibiotics offers little perception into the nature of her illness. (Antibiotics are only effective against bacteria, not viruses.) Physicians may administer such drugs in suspected bacterial cases. A chest X-ray, in the meantime, will give at least some insight. Such an image can “show a diffuse whiteness that can look worse than the patient does,” Nicolls said. Viruses, generally speaking, are inclined to spread out, appearing on a lung X-ray in a smothering white fog. Other sorts of microbes stay close. “The bacteria tend to get localized to a lobe of the lung,” he said.

No matter the specific bug, this sort of pneumonia is what’s known as community-acquired pneumonia. That is, it was caught anywhere but in a health-care system. Hospital-acquired or health-care-associated pneumonias are much more severe diseases, often involving drug-resistant pathogens. Those diseases are a large part of why the umbrella of pneumonia continues to have a high mortality rate.

What is far less likely, too, is that Clinton caught the pneumococcal form of the disease. The CDC recommends anyone older than 65 to be vaccinated for the more severe pneumococcal type. At 68, Clinton falls within this demographic. (The American Lung Association’s advice is also to vaccinate at 65.)

Walking pneumonia is ultimately self-limiting, which means the disease should pass on its own, even without antibiotics. “It’s common. It occurs at all ages,” Edelman said. “It occurs in perfectly healthy people as well as those who are sick.”

In fact, on Friday, the day of her diagnosis, Clinton attended several events, including a CNN interview and a national-security meeting. “If she’s had it for more than a week or so,” Nicolls said, “you could say that it indicates a certain amount of stoicism.”


What Hillary Clinton’s pneumonia diagnosis means, medically speaking
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
September 12 2016 12:38 GMT
#99306
On September 12 2016 21:18 Dan HH wrote:
It's baffling that Trump supporters here bring up concern about Obama in regards to America's international reputation

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]

Odds are, this mostly reflects the way mainstream medias of each country treat said foreign leaders. In France, Obamania was the rule for a long time, Merkel's choices are rarely questioned, Putin is demonized, Clinton is seen as the “choice of reason” and Trump was exclusively portrayed as a populist, racist semi-lunatic (which is quite faithful, but there are rarely in-depth explanations about why ~half of the country can endorse him). International issues tend to be treated in a very superficial way.
Ghostcom
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark4782 Posts
September 12 2016 13:08 GMT
#99307
I think the most surprising thing in that poll is that Merkel scores as high as she does.
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9113 Posts
September 12 2016 13:20 GMT
#99308
On September 12 2016 22:08 Ghostcom wrote:
I think the most surprising thing in that poll is that Merkel scores as high as she does.

The data was collected in spring as it says at the bottom. I'm sure Merkel would have the biggest change in approval since then (at least in Europe), in Germany she fell to 45% after the attacks this summer.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-12 13:23:02
September 12 2016 13:22 GMT
#99309
Trump claimed he was at ground zero after 9/11 and helped dig out survivors. I guess he did that on the way to apply for the small business relief funds.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-12 13:40:30
September 12 2016 13:35 GMT
#99310
On September 12 2016 17:10 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2016 14:38 bo1b wrote:
On September 12 2016 14:27 plasmidghost wrote:
*psst*
Are you concerned about the health of your party's candidate? Worried by Trump's obviously fake, typo-riddled "doctor's note" and his incoherent, demented rambling? Disturbed by Clinton collapsing and covering up pneumonia for days?
Well, great news. Gary Johnson is a triathlete who completed three Ironmans and summited the tallest mountain on every continent, including Everest.

I'm getting the picture of a man that has grown comfortable in a well developed nation not appreciating the things a large government can and does do.

Stuff like spending $850 billion bailing out "too big to fail" banks? 4-6 trillion on the Iraq and Afghan wars? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/study-iraq-afghan-war-costs-to-top-4-trillion/2013/03/28/b82a5dce-97ed-11e2-814b-063623d80a60_story.html

Combine those two figures and thats 1/3 total US debt, that taxpayers need to pay higher taxes to underwrite and pay interest on.And for what? Even Obamas pillar of big government, Obamacare, is a total disaster with providers jumping ship every month...

Wash Post : Obamacare disaster will be Obamas enduring legacy
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/obamacare-disaster-will-be-obamas-enduring-domestic-legacy/2016/04/25/a8c09b38-0ae4-11e6-8ab8-9ad050f76d7d_story.html?utm_term=.055a408e9ee2

Bloomberg : Obamacare in big trouble as insurers tire of losing money
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-08-17/obamacare-s-in-trouble-as-insurers-tire-of-losing-money



Multiple posters have debunked every single one of these assertions multiple times. You seem to conveniently slink off once you realize you're wrong, then show up a couple weeks later with the same horseshit.

1. There was a total of $850b disbursed over the lifetime of a credit line. The government provided liquidity, and typically only had a few billions outstanding at a time. The $850b number is like taking all my monthly credit card bills and adding them up vs. my actual credit limit. Also, the US gov actually made some money on the "bailout".

2. Obamacare is far from perfect - it's a cobbled together, compromised, messy attempt at health reform. However, it's working. There is no death spiral - the trajectory would have to be far, far worse for that to be occurring. There are for-profit insurers that are doing fine like Anthem and various smaller ones vs. UHC - the difference is one group approached the new, sicker markets properly and the others just tried to grab market share without accounting for a different population. Plus, the Aetna pullout was brazenly driven by politics. The ACA could do better, but it is a big step and is actually surprisingly effective - maybe that shows how screwed up our healthcare system is and how much low hanging fruit there was.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-12 13:46:44
September 12 2016 13:46 GMT
#99311
On September 12 2016 12:26 xDaunt wrote:
If she was febrile and weak, then I can understand her collapsing like that. But if that was the case, then I have trouble understanding why she was out and about in the first place. It's all just very weird.

you've never met people who insist on working even when they're sick? especially when they feel there's important stuff they have to do?
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 12 2016 13:50 GMT
#99312
On September 12 2016 22:46 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2016 12:26 xDaunt wrote:
If she was febrile and weak, then I can understand her collapsing like that. But if that was the case, then I have trouble understanding why she was out and about in the first place. It's all just very weird.

you've never met people who insist on working even when they're sick? especially when they feel there's important stuff they have to do?

I grew up with one of these people. My mother would go to work no matter how sick she was until it was physically impossible for her to do so. And then she would take one day off and go back the next day. The woman could turn a simple cold into a one month event of suffering. From everything I have read about Clinton, she sounds like someone who works until she is forced to stop.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 12 2016 13:55 GMT
#99313
On September 12 2016 22:46 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 12 2016 12:26 xDaunt wrote:
If she was febrile and weak, then I can understand her collapsing like that. But if that was the case, then I have trouble understanding why she was out and about in the first place. It's all just very weird.

you've never met people who insist on working even when they're sick? especially when they feel there's important stuff they have to do?

Sure, I'm one of those people. But if you're sick enough such that there's a risk that you can't stand and walk under your own power, you're not going to be working. Hillary's real problem here is that her campaign is peddling a story about her health that is 1) not particularly believable on its own merits, and 2) even less believable given how purposefully opaque (and at times, dishonest) the campaign has been about Hillary's health in the past.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
September 12 2016 13:58 GMT
#99314
I had pneumonia twice in college. First time I got to rest - I was on campus, the cafeteria was a 2 minute walk away, and I skipped lecture and just had friends lend me notes. Second time was senior year and it was the first round of midterm exams/ projects and I was interviewing for jobs. Couldn't take time off and held myself together with hot tea and Dayquil. Not a good time.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 12 2016 14:05 GMT
#99315
On September 12 2016 22:58 ticklishmusic wrote:
I had pneumonia twice in college. First time I got to rest - I was on campus, the cafeteria was a 2 minute walk away, and I skipped lecture and just had friends lend me notes. Second time was senior year and it was the first round of midterm exams/ projects and I was interviewing for jobs. Couldn't take time off and held myself together with hot tea and Dayquil. Not a good time.

Same. I had it and some other sickness for over a month until my college suite-mates drove me home to my doctor. This is when I stopped pushing myself to work while sick.

To be honest, that sort of how I expect this story to play out, that she overworked herself. And I boubt the whole "the Clinton camp" kept is a secret because I don't think the voters expect to be told every time the President has a cold.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-09-12 14:12:10
September 12 2016 14:11 GMT
#99316
I am generally concerned about the health of both candidates. I'm easing off 6 months of 70 hr plus work days now, and near the end I was probably operating at like 60% mentally and 40% physically. I'm a young, relatively healthy guy. Both candidates are old and keep a more rigorous schedule than I do. Even Barack Obama who is legit probably the healthiest president we've had for awhile made some dumb answer about 57 states back when he was campaigning, so you gotta wonder how functional these people are at times.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28637 Posts
September 12 2016 14:41 GMT
#99317
on the topic of US favorability during bush or obama, these two images have been posted before and they are highly relevant

[image loading]

[image loading]

Historically western european countries are the most important allies of the US. Look at how the numbers change during the 2002-2009 timeframe. First a big decline after the invasion of Iraq, then a big increase following Obama's first year in office. Britain, which has had a time-honored special relationship with the US, goes from 83% 'pre-bush', to 51% during the end of Bush, back to 69% in 2009. Germany 78% favorability pre-bush, 30% in 2007, 64% in 2009. France 62% pre-bush, 39% in 2007, 75% in 2009. These numbers would follow a similar trend in every single western european country. Eastern europe doesn't offer as good numbers, but even Poland, which historically is very positive towards a US strongly focused on military strength, moved from 86% to 61% favorability during the reign of Bush - and a slight immediate increase after. Sure, you can point at Israel and notice a 78% to 71% drop from 2007-2009, or Pakistan going from 27% in 2006 to just 12% after commander Drone had been in office for 4 years, but the overall trend is very easy to observe; the US had very strong favorability numbers before Bush entered office, the invasion of Iraq made these numbers plummet, and Obama becoming president lead to an immediate and significant improvement of US standing, both through the US population electing him, and how he changed american rhetoric during the first year of his presidency.

It's also important to note that Western european countries have significant populations with very polarized views on the role of the US. Leftists are prone to be critical no matter what you do, conservatives are likely to be positive no matter what you do. This was reflected during the Iraq war - when I was protesting against the invasion, the right-wing progress party had a counter-demo in favor of it. Like, you can kinda estimate that in the ballpark of 25% of the population would be positive towards the US pretty much no matter what it did and 25% would be negative no matter what, and then you're basically seeing that from the population possibly swayed either way by the actions of the american president, Obama influenced a huge majority of them positively, and Bush negatively.
Moderator
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10686 Posts
September 12 2016 15:09 GMT
#99318
On September 12 2016 23:11 ticklishmusic wrote:
I am generally concerned about the health of both candidates. I'm easing off 6 months of 70 hr plus work days now, and near the end I was probably operating at like 60% mentally and 40% physically. I'm a young, relatively healthy guy. Both candidates are old and keep a more rigorous schedule than I do. Even Barack Obama who is legit probably the healthiest president we've had for awhile made some dumb answer about 57 states back when he was campaigning, so you gotta wonder how functional these people are at times.



They are functional.
I've seen severl People that were absoluetly on top of their game suddenly collapse (and being fine the next day again). Its mainly a sign of being tired and overstressed, not a "heatlh" issue per sé.

All these people did this to themselves, they weren't forced to work 60-70 hours for the last 5-10 years, they wanted to (and still want) because they feel responsible for the Company.

I can only imagine the stress these campaigns put on people that are ~70 years old...
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
September 12 2016 15:09 GMT
#99319
I would wonder how much this approval rating is approval of Obama per se, rather than approval of a return to a less Bush-esque status quo. By default I'd expect approval of US actions to be relatively high by allied nations, unless they are particularly bone-headed and directly make their lives worse.

I also have seen that these "approval rating" polls, while showing a general approval of Obama/US during his tenure, tend not to ask about his generally less loved actions - Ukraine, Libya, encouraging South China Sea disputes, Syria "red line" issue, butting in and sharing his desired vote on Brexit (and "back of the queue"), disputes with Turkey right now, handling of the Greek crisis, etc. Incidentally, I don't think Obama has a bad FP, and in fact I would say that his was better than average because shit always happens, there's always issues people can be disapproving of, and he's had good enough judgment not to escalate most issues far above what they should have been. However, the fact that most of the specific policy questions tend to be softball ones - "handling of ISIS" and "handling of Iraq War" and the like - I question whether these polls have a push-poll quality to them (or if at least they are selective in reporting). I'm sure he is generally well-liked by Europe but these polls try to paint a much more flattering picture of him than he particularly deserves.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
September 12 2016 15:11 GMT
#99320
Donald Trump declined to attack Hillary Clinton’s health, a day after the Democratic nominee’s campaign revealed that she had been diagnosed with pneumonia.

“I hope she gets well soon,” the Republican nominee said on “Fox & Friends” Monday. “I don’t know what’s going on.”

Clinton abruptly left a 9/11 memorial service in Lower Manhattan on Sunday, and a video taken by an onlooker appeared to show Clinton wobbling as she was helped into her van. The incident prompted the Clinton campaign to release a statement from her personal physician, who said the 68-year-old former secretary of state was diagnosed with pneumonia on Friday and became “overheated and dehydrated” at the ceremony.

Trump has repeatedly raised questions about Clinton’s health on the campaign trail, arguing that she does not have the “stamina” to be president. But Trump told CNBC he takes no “satisfaction” in his opponent’s illness.

“It was quite sad, to be honest with you,” Trump said. “I hope she gets well soon. No satisfaction, believe me, whatsoever.”

Trump’s decision to not go after Clinton was striking. He has often embraced conspiracy theories while on the campaign trail, and speculation in the right-wing media has circulated for years about the state of Clinton’s health.

But Bloomberg Politics reported Sunday night that Trump was planning to take a pass in order to focus on other topics, such as Clinton’s assertion that his supporters are a “basket of deplorables.” On Monday, Trump’s campaign released a new television ad that attacked Clinton for the comment.

Source
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
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