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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 4678

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 08 2016 20:10 GMT
#93541
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/08/anti-abortion-movement-database-statistics-226738

Seeking to arm themselves with new ammunition after losing a major Supreme Court battle, the anti-abortion movement is calling for a national database for abortion statistics and increased state reporting — moves likely to raise patient privacy concerns.

The high court’s June decision in favor of Texas abortion providers in Whole Woman’s Health v. Hellerstedt is expected to have a chilling effect on state abortion restrictions, which had closed clinics in Texas and other parts of the country.
Story Continued Below

In response to the high court’s decision, which leaned heavily on research studies and statistics finding abortion to be overwhelmingly a safe procedure, Americans United for Life — one of the key groups advocating for tougher abortion restrictions — is looking to increase abortion reporting requirements as a way to justify new limits. The focus on evidence is part of the anti-abortion movement’s response to the Supreme Court ruling and an attempt to ensure they can pass new state legislation to restrict abortion in the future.

“The abortion advocates like to talk in vague terms about abortion but we need specifics,” said Clarke Forsythe, acting president of Americans United for Life. “We don’t have a national abortion data collection and reporting law.”
Denise M. Burke, vice president of legal affairs at Americans United for Life, called the court’s ruling “guidance for pro-life efforts” to justify proposed new regulations.

“The court asked for more evidence of the harms of abortion and pro-life advocates will answer the challenge,” she wrote in the American Thinker.

In recent years, anti-abortion groups have pushed states to release more data about the procedure, including statistics on patients’ ages, the gestational age of aborted fetuses and complication rates and details. Most of those have been rebuffed. In 2013, for instance, an anti-abortion activist sued Washington State to force the release of data on the number of abortions done by specific clinics and the ages of their patients. But the courts blocked that effort after Planned Parenthood and other abortions rights supporters raised patients’ privacy concerns

“Americans United for Life is an organization with the express purpose of ending women's access to abortion,” said Mary Alice Carter, interim vice president at Planned Parenthood. “Not only are they clearly acting without concern for women's health or well-being, but a proposal like this could raise serious privacy and intimidation concerns for doctors and for women."
The two sources of national abortion statistics — the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Guttmacher Institute, a private, pro-abortion rights research group — rely on information that health providers share on a voluntary basis, but many states have significant penalties for not complying with the CDC. Both sets of data are widely used by both sides of the abortion debate.

The CDC monitors abortion-related deaths, which are very rare, but not other complications. Opponents of abortion rights argue that complications are higher than what current data show.

Others dispute that, saying that abortion is a widely studied medical procedure and peer-reviewed studies have shown low complication rates for years. Abortion rights supporters often say that an abortion in early pregnancy is technically safer than carrying a child to term.

“There’s already a lot of data that have been published documenting how safe abortion is in the U.S.,” said Daniel Grossman, a physician at the University of California San Francisco who studied abortion access after Texas implemented its restrictions in 2013. “The abortion complication rate is exceedingly low.”

Americans United for Life’s effort is in its early stages. But the group will push Congress to pass a bill requiring physicians to report abortion rates and complications. And they’d like states to enact or improve their reporting requirements.
Leaders acknowledge a federal law is unlikely to be signed into law by Hillary Clinton, if she is elected president. But the idea is gaining traction in states with traditionally strong anti-abortion laws, including Texas.

“In the future, we’re going to need better data,” said Texas Alliance for Life Executive Director Joe Pojman, who acknowledged groups like his are likely to have a hard time pursuing new restrictions without statistics supporting their safety concerns.

Texas — which started tracking complications in 2013 — has released 2014 statistics showing complications related to abortion are exceedingly rare. But Pojman argues the numbers “are much smaller than what one would expect.” The group plans to urge state lawmakers address the issue of how clinics report data, which he contends is inadequate.
The state’s data, he said, “defies common sense.”

Grossman disputes that assertion, saying “there’s no sign that there’s a hidden safety problem happening in Texas.”
But demanding more extensive reporting requirements is only one part of the anti-abortion movement’s strategy for 2017.
Overall, the focus is expected to shift from regulating clinics to protecting the fetus — including proposed bans on fetal research and on abortions after 20 weeks of pregnancy. Anti-abortion advocates also want to replicate an Indiana law, which generated a huge public outcry and has been temporarily blocked by the courts, that requires abortion clinics to bury or cremate the remains after an abortion.

The Supreme Court’s decision in the Texas case “may slow down pro-life legislation, but it will not stop it,” said Marjorie Dannenfelser, president of the Susan B. Anthony List. “Pro-life legislation which reaches to the heart of the matter — the child — is popular among every demographic group.”

State legislation will continue to be a key focus. For about a decade, with the Supreme Court makeup unlikely to reverse Roe, anti-abortion groups have focused on enacting abortion restrictions at the state level. And they’ve had remarkable success, enacting more than 300 since 2011, according to the Guttmacher Institute.
“We’ve been passing pro-life laws in state after state after state, for year after year after year,” National Right to Life Committee President Carol Tobias said at the group’s annual meeting last month. Of the abortion rights movement, she said, “And they think they’re going to waltz in and just repeal them? They don’t have the people. They don’t have the popular support.”

Bans on abortion after 20 weeks of pregnancy have already been approved by 15 states — although some have been blocked by the courts — and are likely to spread.

Justice Anthony Kennedy sided with the Supreme Court's liberal wing to strike down an anti-abortion law in Texas.
Supreme Court strikes restrictive Texas abortion law

The Pennsylvania state Senate is considering a 20-week abortion ban, as well as a prohibition on a second-trimester abortion procedure — although the Democratic governor has threatened to veto it. In Ohio, anti-abortion groups hope to send a 20-week abortion ban bill to Gov. John Kasich before the end of the year.
In Wisconsin, Wisconsin Right to Life Executive Director Heather Weininger said the group’s top priorities are to enact a prohibition on a second-trimester abortion procedure and on fetal tissue research, which stalled in the state legislature earlier this year.

Indiana has already passed a law that requires the fetal remains after an abortion to be cremated — and a similar bill is pending in the Ohio state Legislature. Just days after the Supreme Court decision, Texas health officials issued new regulations requiring fetal tissue to be buried or cremated.

“We are hoping these rules get adopted and passed into statute next session,” Pojman said. The Center for Reproductive Rights says the regulation violates the Supreme Court’s decision in Whole Woman’s Health because there is no medical benefit and has threatened to sue.

Texas Alliance for Life wants action on other issues, too, such as addressing possible human trafficking when women are brought to abortion clinics and preventing universities from conducting research using fetal tissue.

“We definitely have to be very cautious because the federal courts are hostile to state regulations,” Pojman said. “That is the new reality.”


Get excited for another round of legal challenges in the fight that never ends. No matter how many times the court rules on these issues, people will continue to try to ban abortions so we can go back to the era of coat hanger abortions.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 08 2016 20:14 GMT
#93542
Donald Trump's effort to appeal to establishment Republicans suffered another setback on Monday, as 50 senior GOP national security officials warned in a new letter that Trump would "risk our country’s national security and well-being.”

The signatories of the letter, which was first reported by The New York Times, all worked in Republican administrations, with many serving as top aides to President George W. Bush. They said none of them would be voting for Trump.

“Trump lacks the character, values, and experience to be President,” they wrote. “He weakens U.S. moral authority as the leader of the free world. He appears to lack basic knowledge about and belief in the U.S. Constitution, U.S. laws, and U.S. institutions, including religious tolerance, freedom of the press, and an independent judiciary.”

The letter signers include Michael Hayden, the former director of the C.I.A. and the National Security Agency, two former secretaries of homeland security, and John Negroponte, who served as the director of national intelligence and deputy secretary of state. None of the living Republican former secretaries of state signed the letter.

Although the signatories said they would not be voting for Trump, they did express concerns about Hillary Clinton as well.
“We also know that many have doubts about Hillary Clinton, as do many of us,” they wrote. “But Donald Trump is not the answer to America’s daunting challenges and to this crucial election. We are convinced that in the Oval Office, he would be the most reckless President in American history.”


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5871 Posts
August 08 2016 20:15 GMT
#93543
On August 09 2016 03:45 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2016 03:21 oBlade wrote:
They did take tax reform off his site, probably redoing it. Interesting development.

If he repudiates his primary-debate-era tax cutting plan, he'll take away one of the final reasons I'd consider voting for him. He's still committing unforced errors alienating segments of his base if you ask me.

His main points before were simplifying the tax code, cutting loopholes and exemptions, and corporate repatriation. I doubt those are changing. Didn't he say he might have to raise taxes in his plan, and then journalists jumped, and he said he meant raise from where his plan was, but still be a cut in general? 10 20 25 -> 12 25 33 doesn't seem like it would be a lot.

My plan will reduce the current number of brackets from 7 to 3, and dramatically streamline the process. We will work with House Republicans on this plan, using the same brackets they have proposed: 12, 25 and 33 percent. For many American workers, their tax rate will be zero.


https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/an-america-first-economic-plan-winning-the-global-competition/

It looks like "House Republicans" is the operative phrase.

https://www.texastribune.org/2016/08/08/brief-august-8-2016/

“From Team Bush, it's a bitter pill to swallow, but you know what? You get back up and you help the man that won, and you make sure that we stop Hillary Clinton,” Bush said to state Republican activists on Saturday, addressing them as Texas GOP's victory chairman, the Tribune’s Patrick Svitek reports.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
August 08 2016 20:30 GMT
#93544
Does Team Bush include George P. Bush's father, uncle, and grandfather?
Yargh
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 08 2016 20:44 GMT
#93545
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22083 Posts
August 08 2016 20:46 GMT
#93546
On August 09 2016 05:44 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedAndrew/status/762703491429199872

I need context Oo
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15736 Posts
August 08 2016 20:59 GMT
#93547
On August 09 2016 05:44 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedAndrew/status/762703491429199872


This is the highest level of shitposting I have ever seen in this thread lol
Sent.
Profile Joined June 2012
Poland9275 Posts
August 08 2016 21:00 GMT
#93548
On August 09 2016 05:44 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedAndrew/status/762703491429199872


wtf i just lost my all my respect for trump
You're now breathing manually
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 08 2016 21:07 GMT
#93549
On August 09 2016 05:59 Mohdoo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2016 05:44 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedAndrew/status/762703491429199872


This is the highest level of shitposting I have ever seen in this thread lol

It is both the highest and lowest point of the thread in 6 months.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
August 08 2016 21:10 GMT
#93550
On August 09 2016 05:46 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2016 05:44 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedAndrew/status/762703491429199872

I need context Oo


From people replying to the twitter, sounds like he meant to say "And by the way, into CITIES, like right here in Detroit."
Yargh
puerk
Profile Joined February 2015
Germany855 Posts
August 08 2016 21:12 GMT
#93551
i am very highly educated i have the best words!
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45263 Posts
August 08 2016 21:12 GMT
#93552
On August 09 2016 06:00 Sent. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2016 05:44 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedAndrew/status/762703491429199872


wtf i just lost my all my respect for trump


Based on everything Trump has said and done thus far, I don't think anyone is going to say the final straw is at "titties".

Making fun of disabled people is one thing, but saying "titties"? We need to draw a line!
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9170 Posts
August 08 2016 21:14 GMT
#93553
On August 09 2016 05:14 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
Donald Trump's effort to appeal to establishment Republicans suffered another setback on Monday, as 50 senior GOP national security officials warned in a new letter that Trump would "risk our country’s national security and well-being.”

The signatories of the letter, which was first reported by The New York Times, all worked in Republican administrations, with many serving as top aides to President George W. Bush. They said none of them would be voting for Trump.

“Trump lacks the character, values, and experience to be President,” they wrote. “He weakens U.S. moral authority as the leader of the free world. He appears to lack basic knowledge about and belief in the U.S. Constitution, U.S. laws, and U.S. institutions, including religious tolerance, freedom of the press, and an independent judiciary.”

The letter signers include Michael Hayden, the former director of the C.I.A. and the National Security Agency, two former secretaries of homeland security, and John Negroponte, who served as the director of national intelligence and deputy secretary of state. None of the living Republican former secretaries of state signed the letter.

Although the signatories said they would not be voting for Trump, they did express concerns about Hillary Clinton as well.
“We also know that many have doubts about Hillary Clinton, as do many of us,” they wrote. “But Donald Trump is not the answer to America’s daunting challenges and to this crucial election. We are convinced that in the Oval Office, he would be the most reckless President in American history.”


Source

The letter itself:

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3007589/Nationalsecurityletter.pdf
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15736 Posts
August 08 2016 21:17 GMT
#93554
On August 09 2016 06:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2016 06:00 Sent. wrote:
On August 09 2016 05:44 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedAndrew/status/762703491429199872


wtf i just lost my all my respect for trump


Based on everything Trump has said and done thus far, I don't think anyone is going to say the final straw is at "titties".

Making fun of disabled people is one thing, but saying "titties"? We need to draw a line!


Never underestimate the bible belt. They HATE sex.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22083 Posts
August 08 2016 21:17 GMT
#93555
On August 09 2016 06:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2016 06:00 Sent. wrote:
On August 09 2016 05:44 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedAndrew/status/762703491429199872


wtf i just lost my all my respect for trump


Based on everything Trump has said and done thus far, I don't think anyone is going to say the final straw is at "titties".

Making fun of disabled people is one thing, but saying "titties"? We need to draw a line!

Considering America's nipple aversion I have less problem believing this then I should.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Naracs_Duc
Profile Joined August 2015
746 Posts
August 08 2016 21:20 GMT
#93556
On August 09 2016 05:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2016 04:13 Naracs_Duc wrote:
On August 09 2016 03:10 LegalLord wrote:
On August 09 2016 03:00 Plansix wrote:
On August 09 2016 02:55 LegalLord wrote:
On August 09 2016 02:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On August 09 2016 02:35 GreenHorizons wrote:
On August 09 2016 02:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On August 09 2016 02:24 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
On August 09 2016 02:19 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]

Some of the ones about Bernie say "misleading"/"requires caveats" but then are given a "false" yet you can go to Hillary's and find similar situations given "half-true". I mean they generally do a decent job of putting the facts together (there have been some recent and rather large errors) but the final verdict is often bs.
.


This

They report the facts and plenty of the time it's very straightforward and no one will disagree with the verdict on a rating as 'truthful' or 'untruthful'

But often their judgment calls on whether something is 'truthful' or 'untruthful' is anything but consistent between candidates. They are not independent and they are not unbiased.


Those are interesting inconsistencies that may or may not be a part of Bernie's evaluation!

Now, back on topic: Is there any reason to dispute the fact that Trump has had far more scandals, made more unprofessional and dirty deals, and is more "crooked" than Hillary Clinton?


Well, if you add in the Clinton foundation she would probably give him a run for his money, but the CF enjoys a much higher level of protection from investigation/reprimand than Trumps businesses.

But that's what's so sad about this all. She (or yall) shouldn't compare herself to the worst candidate to be nominated in modern times and be able to say "well I'm better than that, so you must vote for me".

This is such a utter failing of the voting public it should go down as one of our worst elections.


I completely agree that Hillary is not ideal, but the fact of the matter is that either Hillary or Trump will become president. That's the mathematical reality that we face right now, and so I feel an obligation to figure out which of those two candidates I prefer- which some may view as voting for the lesser of two evils- and to vote for them to make sure the worse candidate isn't elected president. That's being a realist and a pragmatist.

People keep saying that not voting or voting third-party are sensible alternatives, as if there's a secret third option to who's going to become president in this election, and it just blows my mind. I'm equally astonished at those who can't understand why someone should pick the lesser of two evils.

The problem with the "lesser of two evils" argument is that if it is applied consistently, then you make no progress. It just tells politicians that they can be as bad as they want, but as long as they're slightly better than "the enemy" then you have to vote for them. The "lesser of two evils" argument has been consistently applied for many election cycles now, and while it's valid for any one of them it starts to become a real problem if you keep on applying it over and over again every single election, slowly voting against any real progress.

That would be an issue if the president was the entire government. It is just one of many offices we get to vote for on election day. The ticket is larger than just that office and we can vote for other people that more closely reflect our world views. The president is supposed to represent all of the US, not everyone will get everything they want.

The president is by far the most important representative of the people on a national level. Yes, it's pretty clear that local elections also determine public policy, and that you also get to vote on 1-2 representatives to the Legislative Branch every election, but those don't set the policy anywhere near as much as the leadership of the party (which is very strongly influenced by the president). It's very easy for the president to tie the hands of the lower level representatives of the people through the significant influence the president holds, both explicit powers and implicit coercion, so it's really a pretty unfortunate turn of events if the president is a downward spiral of a consistent "lesser of two evils" line of argument.


If you care about laws you yourself have to follow, then put energy into local elections (Mayor, Chief of Police, Judges, etc...)

If you care about the laws others in your sphere of influence follow, or about laws that affect your job/business, then you put energy into the state elections that actually govern that.

If you care about supreme court nominations, the military, or having a stopgap to prevent "bad" laws from being passed--then you put energy into the presidency.

You don't even have to vote party line in any of it. You can have as widespread a pool of politicians as you'd like. The power to shape the laws of the land and who enforces it is 100% in the power of the populace.



Only if they take it back. As of now they are largely stuck in a paradigm that means they have to vote for evil, because it's less evil than the alternative.


Really? Is that the case? Local elections only have 10%-20% attendance rate--you really think that the 80%-90% of the voting population can't get a third or fourth party candidate in a local election?

Presidential elections, sure, 60+% of the voting public means that the 40% of what's left over won't be able to fully make a change to the end result. But we are talking about a 10-90 difference in most local elections. Do you really think that 3rd party candidates don't have a shot then?

The issue is not the system in place but the unwillingness of voters to show up to ALL elections at ALL times.
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5871 Posts
August 08 2016 21:24 GMT
#93557
You can hear the choppy audio, the whole stream was like that.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
August 08 2016 21:26 GMT
#93558
People might show up to local elections more if there was better info; one of mayn things in need of fixing.
Or just switch to systems which do a better job.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23624 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-08 21:34:35
August 08 2016 21:32 GMT
#93559
On August 09 2016 06:20 Naracs_Duc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2016 05:06 GreenHorizons wrote:
On August 09 2016 04:13 Naracs_Duc wrote:
On August 09 2016 03:10 LegalLord wrote:
On August 09 2016 03:00 Plansix wrote:
On August 09 2016 02:55 LegalLord wrote:
On August 09 2016 02:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On August 09 2016 02:35 GreenHorizons wrote:
On August 09 2016 02:26 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On August 09 2016 02:24 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
[quote]

This

They report the facts and plenty of the time it's very straightforward and no one will disagree with the verdict on a rating as 'truthful' or 'untruthful'

But often their judgment calls on whether something is 'truthful' or 'untruthful' is anything but consistent between candidates. They are not independent and they are not unbiased.


Those are interesting inconsistencies that may or may not be a part of Bernie's evaluation!

Now, back on topic: Is there any reason to dispute the fact that Trump has had far more scandals, made more unprofessional and dirty deals, and is more "crooked" than Hillary Clinton?


Well, if you add in the Clinton foundation she would probably give him a run for his money, but the CF enjoys a much higher level of protection from investigation/reprimand than Trumps businesses.

But that's what's so sad about this all. She (or yall) shouldn't compare herself to the worst candidate to be nominated in modern times and be able to say "well I'm better than that, so you must vote for me".

This is such a utter failing of the voting public it should go down as one of our worst elections.


I completely agree that Hillary is not ideal, but the fact of the matter is that either Hillary or Trump will become president. That's the mathematical reality that we face right now, and so I feel an obligation to figure out which of those two candidates I prefer- which some may view as voting for the lesser of two evils- and to vote for them to make sure the worse candidate isn't elected president. That's being a realist and a pragmatist.

People keep saying that not voting or voting third-party are sensible alternatives, as if there's a secret third option to who's going to become president in this election, and it just blows my mind. I'm equally astonished at those who can't understand why someone should pick the lesser of two evils.

The problem with the "lesser of two evils" argument is that if it is applied consistently, then you make no progress. It just tells politicians that they can be as bad as they want, but as long as they're slightly better than "the enemy" then you have to vote for them. The "lesser of two evils" argument has been consistently applied for many election cycles now, and while it's valid for any one of them it starts to become a real problem if you keep on applying it over and over again every single election, slowly voting against any real progress.

That would be an issue if the president was the entire government. It is just one of many offices we get to vote for on election day. The ticket is larger than just that office and we can vote for other people that more closely reflect our world views. The president is supposed to represent all of the US, not everyone will get everything they want.

The president is by far the most important representative of the people on a national level. Yes, it's pretty clear that local elections also determine public policy, and that you also get to vote on 1-2 representatives to the Legislative Branch every election, but those don't set the policy anywhere near as much as the leadership of the party (which is very strongly influenced by the president). It's very easy for the president to tie the hands of the lower level representatives of the people through the significant influence the president holds, both explicit powers and implicit coercion, so it's really a pretty unfortunate turn of events if the president is a downward spiral of a consistent "lesser of two evils" line of argument.


If you care about laws you yourself have to follow, then put energy into local elections (Mayor, Chief of Police, Judges, etc...)

If you care about the laws others in your sphere of influence follow, or about laws that affect your job/business, then you put energy into the state elections that actually govern that.

If you care about supreme court nominations, the military, or having a stopgap to prevent "bad" laws from being passed--then you put energy into the presidency.

You don't even have to vote party line in any of it. You can have as widespread a pool of politicians as you'd like. The power to shape the laws of the land and who enforces it is 100% in the power of the populace.



Only if they take it back. As of now they are largely stuck in a paradigm that means they have to vote for evil, because it's less evil than the alternative.


Really? Is that the case? Local elections only have 10%-20% attendance rate--you really think that the 80%-90% of the voting population can't get a third or fourth party candidate in a local election?

Presidential elections, sure, 60+% of the voting public means that the 40% of what's left over won't be able to fully make a change to the end result. But we are talking about a 10-90 difference in most local elections. Do you really think that 3rd party candidates don't have a shot then?

The issue is not the system in place but the unwillingness of voters to show up to ALL elections at ALL times.


I think of voting somewhat like "mail-in rebates". There are hundreds of millions of dollars that go unclaimed every year. One could argue "it's not the system", but when a system works like that (when the human element is included), it's hard to ignore the problems presented by the system/participant interactions.

Showing up (like mailing them in) is a significant part of "taking it back" in my view. But we'd be lying to ourselves if we didn't confront the reality that if we work on "the system" we'll also improve our results (and expose those who see the lack of engagement as a feature, not a bug).

There are additional hurdles for third-party candidates at local levels, but participation would go a hell of a long way.

On August 09 2016 06:26 zlefin wrote:
People might show up to local elections more if there was better info; one of mayn things in need of fixing.
Or just switch to systems which do a better job.


Voter education is absolutely pathetic in this country. As in facts about the system and candidates, not just general knowledge.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
August 08 2016 21:40 GMT
#93560
On August 09 2016 03:29 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 09 2016 03:24 IgnE wrote:
On August 09 2016 03:19 farvacola wrote:
On August 09 2016 03:13 IgnE wrote:
On August 09 2016 03:09 farvacola wrote:
Depending on the definition of knowledge being used, the internet hasn't actually democratized knowledge so much as pretend to. Personally, I think understanding knowledge as an inherently trust-based, contingent hierarchy of communication makes the most sense, and in thinking along those lines, the Internet is hardly a wholly positive phenomena. Call me a bad Marxist, but I think that some hierarchies are helpful and even necessary, particularly with regards to education. This is not to say that education in the US is not overly-hierarchilized


Obviously hierarchies and networks have advantages and disadvantages. But when knowledge flows are dominated by one so thoroughly (in this case hierarchies) you amplify the disadvantages of hierarchies and lose the advantages of networks (citation to Manuel DeLanda).

And come on. The internet has every book ever written on it. I think you are coming from a privileged Western position of media-hyped "information overload" and "echo chambers" when you make comments about how it hasn't democratized knowledge. Compare the knowledge opportunities of those living in the third world 50 years ago to what they have now on refurbished internet-capable laptops.

While I'm at work and accordingly unable to respond in appropriate length, I'm certain that we're talking about two different kinds of knowledge. Access to information is one thing, knowledge of the thing that said information regards is something else. Privilege has nothing to do with it, particularly when an accusation therewith can be made in the opposite direction vis a vie what can be characterized as an overly-simple view of what knowledge actually is.

(Nice DeLanda reference though, I'll need to refresh my reading of him when I get the chance.)


Information is the stuff of knowledge-making. You have a point, but my post is directed to the technocratic folks here who view public education as a perpetual economics machine.

am I one of those people?

I don't know you tell me.

also not clear on what your statement is trying to say.

Not clear on what you are not clear on.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
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