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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 440

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-16 00:11:37
September 16 2013 00:10 GMT
#8781
I think the main purpose of the healthcare system is to keep useless old people alive on life support so they can vote republican. That's why we can't have doctor assisted suicide

edit: and I'm out. Spending too much time poking at this little screen. Gonna go work on becoming less ig orant. Peace comrades
shikata ga nai
Leporello
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2845 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-16 00:18:04
September 16 2013 00:10 GMT
#8782
On September 16 2013 09:08 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2013 09:03 Leporello wrote:
On September 16 2013 09:01 sam!zdat wrote:
yes but the point is that getting more healthcare means you are getting sicker. Getting more healthcare is a bad thing not a good thing, it would be better not to get sick at all. But getting sick and getting healthcare increases gdp so therefore it is a good thing, so therefore giving people diabetes and then treating them for it is good for the economy. Go capitalism


Same thing with prisons. "Privatizing is good because it creates incentive", so we create incentive for "crime" to exist. Everything in our prisons is privatized and outsourced. We have the largest incarceration percantage in the world, but if we actually decreased crime, that would mean someone loses a government contract.

Few prisons are privatized...


Most prisons are de-facto privatized. The food service, the utility management, even the phone-systems which often operate on a collect-call-only basis through a small, private carrier. Regardless, the point is we can't actually fix the problem of over-incarceration, because we have created too much incentive for it to exist.

edit: http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-prison-phones-20130808,0,4232243.story

Things like this. Public prison full of private enterprises.

There's so many comparisons to make here.

Like war. Our military is certainly not a private enterprise, but it sure as hell is laced with the stuff.
A public function that doles out contracts to the private sector is creating incentive in places where maybe incentive shouldn't really exist.
Big water
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-16 00:18:44
September 16 2013 00:16 GMT
#8783
On September 16 2013 09:10 Leporello wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2013 09:08 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On September 16 2013 09:03 Leporello wrote:
On September 16 2013 09:01 sam!zdat wrote:
yes but the point is that getting more healthcare means you are getting sicker. Getting more healthcare is a bad thing not a good thing, it would be better not to get sick at all. But getting sick and getting healthcare increases gdp so therefore it is a good thing, so therefore giving people diabetes and then treating them for it is good for the economy. Go capitalism


Same thing with prisons. "Privatizing is good because it creates incentive", so we create incentive for "crime" to exist. Everything in our prisons is privatized and outsourced. We have the largest incarceration percantage in the world, but if we actually decreased crime, that would mean someone loses a government contract.

Few prisons are privatized...

Most prisons are de-facto privatized. The food service, the utility management, even the phone-systems which operate on a collect-call-only basis.

Does that differ from other countries?

My understanding is that private prisons started becoming more prevalent as prison populations grew. Not that private prisons started cropping up before prison populations.

Edit: Most things governments around the world do rely on private enterprises. Public schools buy supplies from private businesses. It doesn't mean that public schools are really private schools.
Shiragaku
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Hong Kong4308 Posts
September 16 2013 00:36 GMT
#8784
On September 16 2013 09:10 PineapplePizza wrote:
I'm new to the whole collegiate finance universe.

If tomorrow the whole world decided to implement and enforce some sort-of universal minimum wage (say, US$12.00 / hr or something not completely awful), what would things look like?


Keynesian would love it because that would give consumers more money, hence more consumerism which runs the economy in their view. But I am not a Keynesian so don't ask me for the fine details :/
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 16 2013 00:40 GMT
#8785
De-facto privatized seems a lot like the de-facto bipartisan from a hundred pages back. Hey, we invited our opposition to sit down with us. If you view a certain aspect of the proposal in a certain light, it can be seen as resembling this thing that a conservative proposed. Ergo, it's a bipartisan effort and the detractors are spoil sports and children.

Those public functions that don't dole out things to the private sector--sometimes does things worse than if a department been created and public employees hired. If the goal is to get things done right at low cost and on time, there's very little incentive to seek solutions within the public sector. That's where you look for solutions that are double the cost and take twice the time projected to complete.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13986 Posts
September 16 2013 00:40 GMT
#8786
On September 16 2013 09:10 PineapplePizza wrote:
I'm new to the whole collegiate finance universe.

If tomorrow the whole world decided to implement and enforce some sort-of universal minimum wage (say, US$12.00 / hr or something not completely awful), what would things look like?


Mass chaos and rioting in the streets. A lot of companies would lay off their workers and they would burn down the company store beacuse they can't get jobs anymore.

there are a ton of people livieng just on the line right now with sub 30 hour part time jobs thanks to obamacare. if the min wage went up now a lot of those jobs would just disappear.

Would probably make a lot more full time jobs at the cost of a ton of part time jobs.

But then again I'm a college student that doesn't know what hes talking about and is spewing bs on a forum about dat esports and ponies.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Leporello
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2845 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-16 01:37:31
September 16 2013 00:42 GMT
#8787
On September 16 2013 09:16 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2013 09:10 Leporello wrote:
On September 16 2013 09:08 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On September 16 2013 09:03 Leporello wrote:
On September 16 2013 09:01 sam!zdat wrote:
yes but the point is that getting more healthcare means you are getting sicker. Getting more healthcare is a bad thing not a good thing, it would be better not to get sick at all. But getting sick and getting healthcare increases gdp so therefore it is a good thing, so therefore giving people diabetes and then treating them for it is good for the economy. Go capitalism


Same thing with prisons. "Privatizing is good because it creates incentive", so we create incentive for "crime" to exist. Everything in our prisons is privatized and outsourced. We have the largest incarceration percantage in the world, but if we actually decreased crime, that would mean someone loses a government contract.

Few prisons are privatized...

Most prisons are de-facto privatized. The food service, the utility management, even the phone-systems which operate on a collect-call-only basis.

Does that differ from other countries?

My understanding is that private prisons started becoming more prevalent as prison populations grew. Not that private prisons started cropping up before prison populations.

Edit: Most things governments around the world do rely on private enterprises. Public schools buy supplies from private businesses. It doesn't mean that public schools are really private schools.


Oh I agree. We need the military industry too. These are necessities, but not all the time. Using the phone-prison example, there is no need for these families to be paying over $1 a minute to make a phone-call. There is no choice for them, as "consumers", in how to talk to their imprisoned family member, they have to pay this private company whatever they charge. It's a government-run private-monopoly. Our military is full of these as well. No-bid contracts, or contracts that when fulfilled, incentivize waste and price-gouging.

It's just that with schools, on the other hand, they get a lot of attention and a lot of oversight. Despite all the hand-wringing conservatives make over waste in public education, it doesn't really exist in comparison. Most schools operate on reasonable budgets. And any incentive we can create from private industry towards education is a good thing, everyone would agree.

Meanwhile, we're creating incentive for prisons and war-machines, but not giving that same level of oversight, sometimes much less.


edit: and just to be clear, this is not an isolated case.
http://www.mytelewest.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NCIC_Operator_Services
http://www.gtl.net/

All these companies work in multiple states, nationwide. Some operate on a larger scale than just phones. These are private, nationwide industries that are in the business of providing prisoner-family phone-calls at exorbitant rates.

How the hell are we punishing the families of inmates, by monopolizing their phone-conversations for the sake of private industry? Is our government really not capable of providing its prisons with its own phone service? I'll gladly pay the nickel in extra taxes to not have these families being ****ed over.
Big water
Leporello
Profile Joined January 2011
United States2845 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-09-16 00:59:17
September 16 2013 00:55 GMT
#8788
We create the No Child Left Behind Act, which everyone has at least heard of, as a massive oversight program to school's budgets. Our school's budgets are only as good as their results, is the basic idea of that bill. It's a good idea, to make sure that the incentive isn't just monetary, but that we have the right goals in mind (although some would argue it encourages "teaching to the test").

Why does it seem that we only do stuff like that with government programs that are designed to actually help people? We want to test what kind of food people buy with their food stamps and drug-test them, because we don't want to waste any money on welfare-recipients. But meanwhile we let Halliburton charge us $100 for filling up a sandbag with sand.
Big water
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13986 Posts
September 16 2013 00:55 GMT
#8789
The problem with making schools better is that teachers don't want schools to get better in any measurable way.

We also decided that everyone deserves a high school education for some reason and can't just jettison half our population out after middle school like other countries.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18832 Posts
September 16 2013 01:00 GMT
#8790
On September 16 2013 09:55 Sermokala wrote:
The problem with making schools better is that teachers don't want schools to get better in any measurable way.

We also decided that everyone deserves a high school education for some reason and can't just jettison half our population out after middle school like other countries.

You mean unions.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
September 16 2013 01:04 GMT
#8791
On September 16 2013 09:55 Sermokala wrote:
The problem with making schools better is that teachers don't want schools to get better in any measurable way.


Prove it?
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
September 16 2013 01:15 GMT
#8792
On September 16 2013 09:42 Leporello wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2013 09:16 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On September 16 2013 09:10 Leporello wrote:
On September 16 2013 09:08 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On September 16 2013 09:03 Leporello wrote:
On September 16 2013 09:01 sam!zdat wrote:
yes but the point is that getting more healthcare means you are getting sicker. Getting more healthcare is a bad thing not a good thing, it would be better not to get sick at all. But getting sick and getting healthcare increases gdp so therefore it is a good thing, so therefore giving people diabetes and then treating them for it is good for the economy. Go capitalism


Same thing with prisons. "Privatizing is good because it creates incentive", so we create incentive for "crime" to exist. Everything in our prisons is privatized and outsourced. We have the largest incarceration percantage in the world, but if we actually decreased crime, that would mean someone loses a government contract.

Few prisons are privatized...

Most prisons are de-facto privatized. The food service, the utility management, even the phone-systems which operate on a collect-call-only basis.

Does that differ from other countries?

My understanding is that private prisons started becoming more prevalent as prison populations grew. Not that private prisons started cropping up before prison populations.

Edit: Most things governments around the world do rely on private enterprises. Public schools buy supplies from private businesses. It doesn't mean that public schools are really private schools.


Oh I agree. We need the military industry too. These are necessities, but not all the time. Using the phone-prison example, there is no need for these families to be paying over $1 a minute to make a phone-call. There is no choice for them, as "consumers", in how to talk to their imprisoned family member, they have to pay this private company whatever they charge. It's a government-run private-monopoly. Our military is full of these as well. No-bid contracts, or contracts that when fulfilled, incentivize waste and price-gouging.

It's just that with schools, on the other hand, they get a lot of attention and a lot of oversight. Despite all the hand-wringing conservatives make over waste in public education, it doesn't really exist in comparison. Most schools operate on reasonable budgets. And any incentive we can create from private industry towards education is a good thing, everyone would agree.

Meanwhile, we're creating incentive for prisons and war-machines, but not giving that same level of oversight, sometimes much less.

The prison phone example is certainly a good example of BS. There's a lot of blame to go around there though. The phone company is making big bucks, but so is the government. Everyone involved would probably describe the situation as a good source of public revenue and so good public policy.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
September 16 2013 01:23 GMT
#8793
What the hell? I leave for like half a day and DEB makes a massive aggressive post that he thinks calls me out (which I thought was pretty adorable), then he gets banned, then everyone started talking finance again. I guess it's too late for me to respond to him ;_;

Anyway, let's do the education thing then. We didn't have to get far before we got Sermokala showing horrible contempt for teachers. Yay conservatives!

(Oh and teachers are workers. So that kind of goes with my previous theme of Republicans showing contempt for workers, women, and minorities.)
sam!zdat
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States5559 Posts
September 16 2013 01:27 GMT
#8794
after the revolution we will soak up all our extra labor being teachers and students and we won't need anything to be happy except time and books
shikata ga nai
Dapper_Cad
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom964 Posts
September 16 2013 01:35 GMT
#8795
On September 16 2013 09:42 Leporello wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2013 09:16 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On September 16 2013 09:10 Leporello wrote:
On September 16 2013 09:08 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On September 16 2013 09:03 Leporello wrote:
On September 16 2013 09:01 sam!zdat wrote:
yes but the point is that getting more healthcare means you are getting sicker. Getting more healthcare is a bad thing not a good thing, it would be better not to get sick at all. But getting sick and getting healthcare increases gdp so therefore it is a good thing, so therefore giving people diabetes and then treating them for it is good for the economy. Go capitalism


Same thing with prisons. "Privatizing is good because it creates incentive", so we create incentive for "crime" to exist. Everything in our prisons is privatized and outsourced. We have the largest incarceration percantage in the world, but if we actually decreased crime, that would mean someone loses a government contract.

Few prisons are privatized...

Most prisons are de-facto privatized. The food service, the utility management, even the phone-systems which operate on a collect-call-only basis.

Does that differ from other countries?

My understanding is that private prisons started becoming more prevalent as prison populations grew. Not that private prisons started cropping up before prison populations.

Edit: Most things governments around the world do rely on private enterprises. Public schools buy supplies from private businesses. It doesn't mean that public schools are really private schools.


Oh I agree. We need the military industry too. These are necessities, but not all the time. Using the phone-prison example, there is no need for these families to be paying over $1 a minute to make a phone-call. There is no choice for them, as "consumers", in how to talk to their imprisoned family member, they have to pay this private company whatever they charge. It's a government-run private-monopoly. Our military is full of these as well. No-bid contracts, or contracts that when fulfilled, incentivize waste and price-gouging.

It's just that with schools, on the other hand, they get a lot of attention and a lot of oversight. Despite all the hand-wringing conservatives make over waste in public education, it doesn't really exist in comparison. Most schools operate on reasonable budgets. And any incentive we can create from private industry towards education is a good thing, everyone would agree.

Meanwhile, we're creating incentive for prisons and war-machines, but not giving that same level of oversight, sometimes much less.


I don't think you even needed to concede the first point. From what I can see, and I might have misread the data I've been able to scrounge up, about 1 in 2 prisoners in the U.S. is being held in a private prison.

In 2006 there were a little under 250,000 incarcerated americans.

Source

In 2011 130,000 American's were incarcerated by for-profit companies.

Source

I think Jonny is right though in that I'm not sure there's a clear cause and effect at work here where prison populations rise as a result of prison privatisation. However I also think that Leporello is right that there is an incentive at work here which is counter to anything you might describe as a social good.

Regardless of the exact cause the graphs in the wikipedia entry make grim viewing:

[image loading]





But he is never making short-term prediction, everyone of his prediction are based on fundenmentals, but he doesn't exactly know when it will happen... So using these kind of narrowed "who-is-right" empirical analysis makes little sense.
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
September 16 2013 01:40 GMT
#8796
That's a bad graph. I would attribute most of that to simply rising population.
Dapper_Cad
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom964 Posts
September 16 2013 01:41 GMT
#8797
On September 16 2013 09:55 Sermokala wrote:
The problem with making schools better is that teachers don't want schools to get better in any measurable way.

We also decided that everyone deserves a high school education for some reason and can't just jettison half our population out after middle school like other countries.


Which other countries?
But he is never making short-term prediction, everyone of his prediction are based on fundenmentals, but he doesn't exactly know when it will happen... So using these kind of narrowed "who-is-right" empirical analysis makes little sense.
Dapper_Cad
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom964 Posts
September 16 2013 01:44 GMT
#8798
On September 16 2013 10:40 DoubleReed wrote:
That's a bad graph. I would attribute most of that to simply rising population.


Really? REALLY? I MEAN. REALLY? really... really? Really? Seriously? Really?

Did you start dosing the water with rohypnol and Viagra in 1980?
But he is never making short-term prediction, everyone of his prediction are based on fundenmentals, but he doesn't exactly know when it will happen... So using these kind of narrowed "who-is-right" empirical analysis makes little sense.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13986 Posts
September 16 2013 01:44 GMT
#8799
On September 16 2013 10:04 Roe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2013 09:55 Sermokala wrote:
The problem with making schools better is that teachers don't want schools to get better in any measurable way.


Prove it?

The strike that chicago teachers went on turning down a 10% raise because having some way to hold them accountable for whats going inside of a classroom is unacceptable.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13986 Posts
September 16 2013 01:45 GMT
#8800
On September 16 2013 10:41 Dapper_Cad wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2013 09:55 Sermokala wrote:
The problem with making schools better is that teachers don't want schools to get better in any measurable way.

We also decided that everyone deserves a high school education for some reason and can't just jettison half our population out after middle school like other countries.


Which other countries?

I'm color blind so I don't know what that graph means but I am going to assume that it proves my point.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
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