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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On December 16 2012 04:11 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 04:09 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 16 2012 04:07 kwizach wrote:On December 16 2012 03:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 15 2012 20:51 kwizach wrote:On December 15 2012 18:01 Adreme wrote:On December 15 2012 11:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Mike Huckabee is really a piece of work i.e. an Asshole. What exactly did he do this time? He said that keeping God out of American schools contributed to having shootings like this one. Like Stealthblue said, he really is an asshole. that's not being an asshole. It is. The two are completely unrelated, and the only thing he's doing is pushing his agenda. in your opinion they are unrelated. in many other people's opinion, they are not unrelated at all. I guess you could say that you disagree with his opinion and that because you disagree, he's an asshole for having that opinion, but I think that's a little ridiculous. Ah, the good old "it's only your opinion". How are the two supposed to be related exactly?
Well, if God had been allowed in the school he would have smote down the heathen gunman before anything happened. Obvious, isn't it?
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On December 16 2012 04:11 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 04:09 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 16 2012 04:07 kwizach wrote:On December 16 2012 03:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 15 2012 20:51 kwizach wrote:On December 15 2012 18:01 Adreme wrote:On December 15 2012 11:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Mike Huckabee is really a piece of work i.e. an Asshole. What exactly did he do this time? He said that keeping God out of American schools contributed to having shootings like this one. Like Stealthblue said, he really is an asshole. that's not being an asshole. It is. The two are completely unrelated, and the only thing he's doing is pushing his agenda. in your opinion they are unrelated. in many other people's opinion, they are not unrelated at all. I guess you could say that you disagree with his opinion and that because you disagree, he's an asshole for having that opinion, but I think that's a little ridiculous. Ah, the good old "it's only your opinion". How are the two supposed to be related exactly?
clearly he thinks that a greater emphasis on God in schools would lead to a more moral lifestyle and a more morally aware society. this is a pretty common line of thinking that most, if not all, Christians agree with. it's arguable if it will or not, but that right there means his opinion isn't disgusting or inherently wrong, there are legitimate and valid arguments to be made that a greater focus on religion can lead to a more cohesive and moral society, just as there are legitimate and valid arguments to make against that position. since there can be a legitimate discussion about the issue, I think that means he's not an asshole for bringing it up, and he's not just pushing an agenda. he honestly perceives that as a way to help prevent tragedies like this from occurring.
I could just as easily say that anyone who brought up gun-control is being an asshole and should shut up and is just pushing their agenda, but I don't do that because my disagreement with a position doesn't make the position an immoral one to take.
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He's an asshole, but y'all should look for the kernel of the real buried under his ideology. Liberals would do well to try to take conservatives seriously when they say ridiculous stuff like that - it will reveal your own blind spot if you ponder it carefully and try to put yourself in the mind of a person who could think like that.
He's not totally wrong. (edit: because no one is smart enough to be totally wrong)
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United States44060 Posts
On December 16 2012 03:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2012 20:51 kwizach wrote:On December 15 2012 18:01 Adreme wrote:On December 15 2012 11:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Mike Huckabee is really a piece of work i.e. an Asshole. What exactly did he do this time? He said that keeping God out of American schools contributed to having shootings like this one. Like Stealthblue said, he really is an asshole. that's not being an asshole.
There is a time and a place for political point scoring and a heap of dead children murdered just before Christmas is not it.
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On December 16 2012 04:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 04:11 kwizach wrote:On December 16 2012 04:09 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 16 2012 04:07 kwizach wrote:On December 16 2012 03:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 15 2012 20:51 kwizach wrote:On December 15 2012 18:01 Adreme wrote:On December 15 2012 11:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Mike Huckabee is really a piece of work i.e. an Asshole. What exactly did he do this time? He said that keeping God out of American schools contributed to having shootings like this one. Like Stealthblue said, he really is an asshole. that's not being an asshole. It is. The two are completely unrelated, and the only thing he's doing is pushing his agenda. in your opinion they are unrelated. in many other people's opinion, they are not unrelated at all. I guess you could say that you disagree with his opinion and that because you disagree, he's an asshole for having that opinion, but I think that's a little ridiculous. Ah, the good old "it's only your opinion". How are the two supposed to be related exactly? clearly he thinks that a greater emphasis on God in schools would lead to a more moral lifestyle and a more morally aware society. this is a pretty common line of thinking that most, if not all, Christians agree with. it's arguable if it will or not, but that right there means his opinion isn't disgusting or inherently wrong, there are legitimate and valid arguments to be made that a greater focus on religion can lead to a more cohesive and moral society, just as there are legitimate and valid arguments to make against that position. since there can be a legitimate discussion about the issue, I think that means he's not an asshole for bringing it up, and he's not just pushing an agenda. he honestly perceives that as a way to help prevent tragedies like this from occurring. I could just as easily say that anyone who brought up gun-control is being an asshole and should shut up and is just pushing their agenda, but I don't do that because my disagreement with a position doesn't make the position an immoral one to take.
Ok, so you don't have anything to support a link between the two except that it's "the opinion" of most Christians. Since he did not even present it as his opinion but as fact, we can legitimately say that for doing so on the back of a national tragedy he's an asshole promoting his agenda.
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On December 16 2012 04:29 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 04:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 16 2012 04:11 kwizach wrote:On December 16 2012 04:09 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 16 2012 04:07 kwizach wrote:On December 16 2012 03:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 15 2012 20:51 kwizach wrote:On December 15 2012 18:01 Adreme wrote:On December 15 2012 11:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Mike Huckabee is really a piece of work i.e. an Asshole. What exactly did he do this time? He said that keeping God out of American schools contributed to having shootings like this one. Like Stealthblue said, he really is an asshole. that's not being an asshole. It is. The two are completely unrelated, and the only thing he's doing is pushing his agenda. in your opinion they are unrelated. in many other people's opinion, they are not unrelated at all. I guess you could say that you disagree with his opinion and that because you disagree, he's an asshole for having that opinion, but I think that's a little ridiculous. Ah, the good old "it's only your opinion". How are the two supposed to be related exactly? clearly he thinks that a greater emphasis on God in schools would lead to a more moral lifestyle and a more morally aware society. this is a pretty common line of thinking that most, if not all, Christians agree with. it's arguable if it will or not, but that right there means his opinion isn't disgusting or inherently wrong, there are legitimate and valid arguments to be made that a greater focus on religion can lead to a more cohesive and moral society, just as there are legitimate and valid arguments to make against that position. since there can be a legitimate discussion about the issue, I think that means he's not an asshole for bringing it up, and he's not just pushing an agenda. he honestly perceives that as a way to help prevent tragedies like this from occurring. I could just as easily say that anyone who brought up gun-control is being an asshole and should shut up and is just pushing their agenda, but I don't do that because my disagreement with a position doesn't make the position an immoral one to take. Ok, so you don't have anything to support a link between the two except that it's "the opinion" of most Christians. Since he did not even present it as his opinion but as fact, we can legitimately say that for doing so on the back of a national tragedy he's an asshole promoting his agenda.
I didn't say I don't have anything to support a link between the two. (though, I'm not very interested in having this argument right now. maybe later)
of course he presented it as a fact, in his opinion it is a fact that it would have helped. and no, a national tragedy does not mean that everyone who might have a different opinion than you has to shut up about it.
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United States44060 Posts
On December 16 2012 04:37 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 04:29 kwizach wrote:On December 16 2012 04:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 16 2012 04:11 kwizach wrote:On December 16 2012 04:09 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 16 2012 04:07 kwizach wrote:On December 16 2012 03:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 15 2012 20:51 kwizach wrote:On December 15 2012 18:01 Adreme wrote:On December 15 2012 11:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Mike Huckabee is really a piece of work i.e. an Asshole. What exactly did he do this time? He said that keeping God out of American schools contributed to having shootings like this one. Like Stealthblue said, he really is an asshole. that's not being an asshole. It is. The two are completely unrelated, and the only thing he's doing is pushing his agenda. in your opinion they are unrelated. in many other people's opinion, they are not unrelated at all. I guess you could say that you disagree with his opinion and that because you disagree, he's an asshole for having that opinion, but I think that's a little ridiculous. Ah, the good old "it's only your opinion". How are the two supposed to be related exactly? clearly he thinks that a greater emphasis on God in schools would lead to a more moral lifestyle and a more morally aware society. this is a pretty common line of thinking that most, if not all, Christians agree with. it's arguable if it will or not, but that right there means his opinion isn't disgusting or inherently wrong, there are legitimate and valid arguments to be made that a greater focus on religion can lead to a more cohesive and moral society, just as there are legitimate and valid arguments to make against that position. since there can be a legitimate discussion about the issue, I think that means he's not an asshole for bringing it up, and he's not just pushing an agenda. he honestly perceives that as a way to help prevent tragedies like this from occurring. I could just as easily say that anyone who brought up gun-control is being an asshole and should shut up and is just pushing their agenda, but I don't do that because my disagreement with a position doesn't make the position an immoral one to take. Ok, so you don't have anything to support a link between the two except that it's "the opinion" of most Christians. Since he did not even present it as his opinion but as fact, we can legitimately say that for doing so on the back of a national tragedy he's an asshole promoting his agenda. I didn't say I don't have anything to support a link between the two. of course he presented it as a fact, in his opinion it is a fact that it would have helped. and no, a national tragedy does not mean that everyone who might have a different opinion than you has to shut up about it.
I'm in favour of gun control and I shut up the pro gun control shit in the tl topic about the tragedy on the basis of basic human decency. It's not about who you think is right, it's about not using something like this for your own ends.
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Can we stop using this "you presented your opinion as a fact!!" criticism? It never made any sense to begin with
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On December 16 2012 04:39 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 04:37 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 16 2012 04:29 kwizach wrote:On December 16 2012 04:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 16 2012 04:11 kwizach wrote:On December 16 2012 04:09 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 16 2012 04:07 kwizach wrote:On December 16 2012 03:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 15 2012 20:51 kwizach wrote:On December 15 2012 18:01 Adreme wrote:
[quote]
What exactly did he do this time? He said that keeping God out of American schools contributed to having shootings like this one. Like Stealthblue said, he really is an asshole. that's not being an asshole. It is. The two are completely unrelated, and the only thing he's doing is pushing his agenda. in your opinion they are unrelated. in many other people's opinion, they are not unrelated at all. I guess you could say that you disagree with his opinion and that because you disagree, he's an asshole for having that opinion, but I think that's a little ridiculous. Ah, the good old "it's only your opinion". How are the two supposed to be related exactly? clearly he thinks that a greater emphasis on God in schools would lead to a more moral lifestyle and a more morally aware society. this is a pretty common line of thinking that most, if not all, Christians agree with. it's arguable if it will or not, but that right there means his opinion isn't disgusting or inherently wrong, there are legitimate and valid arguments to be made that a greater focus on religion can lead to a more cohesive and moral society, just as there are legitimate and valid arguments to make against that position. since there can be a legitimate discussion about the issue, I think that means he's not an asshole for bringing it up, and he's not just pushing an agenda. he honestly perceives that as a way to help prevent tragedies like this from occurring. I could just as easily say that anyone who brought up gun-control is being an asshole and should shut up and is just pushing their agenda, but I don't do that because my disagreement with a position doesn't make the position an immoral one to take. Ok, so you don't have anything to support a link between the two except that it's "the opinion" of most Christians. Since he did not even present it as his opinion but as fact, we can legitimately say that for doing so on the back of a national tragedy he's an asshole promoting his agenda. I didn't say I don't have anything to support a link between the two. of course he presented it as a fact, in his opinion it is a fact that it would have helped. and no, a national tragedy does not mean that everyone who might have a different opinion than you has to shut up about it. I'm in favour of gun control and I shut up the pro gun control shit in the tl topic about the tragedy on the basis of basic human decency. It's not about who you think is right, it's about not using something like this for your own ends.
Having looked up exactly what he said I do feel how he said it makes him an asshole but I cant really critisize what he was trying to say had he said it in a better way. The reasoning for this is that on almost every news outlet they devoted a segment to whether we should do new gun control yesterday for the reason of this being 3rd big national shooting story in past 2 weeks (NFL Player and Washington Mall).
I think its fine after an event to wonder how they could have prevented it and if he believes that the answer is more God in the public square than he is free to say that if he wants provided he can it in a better way than he did yesterday.
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On December 15 2012 11:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Mike Huckabee is really a piece of work i.e. an Asshole.
Actually, he isn't so much being an asshole as a humongous fucking asshole.
"But, that's just, like, your opinion, frogrubdown"
Funny I didn't realize you can only be an asshole if a bipartisan consensus agrees. In any case, I take Huckabee to be an asshole and at least half the posters here agree, so apparently you don't have any sturdier grounds to challenge me than I do to challenge Huckabee.
On December 16 2012 04:39 sam!zdat wrote:
Can we stop using this "you presented your opinion as a fact!!" criticism? It never made any sense to begin with
I can't say how many times I've made or wanted to make the same point here. I pass the boulder to you, Sisyphus.
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On December 16 2012 04:39 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 04:37 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 16 2012 04:29 kwizach wrote:On December 16 2012 04:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 16 2012 04:11 kwizach wrote:On December 16 2012 04:09 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 16 2012 04:07 kwizach wrote:On December 16 2012 03:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 15 2012 20:51 kwizach wrote:On December 15 2012 18:01 Adreme wrote:
[quote]
What exactly did he do this time? He said that keeping God out of American schools contributed to having shootings like this one. Like Stealthblue said, he really is an asshole. that's not being an asshole. It is. The two are completely unrelated, and the only thing he's doing is pushing his agenda. in your opinion they are unrelated. in many other people's opinion, they are not unrelated at all. I guess you could say that you disagree with his opinion and that because you disagree, he's an asshole for having that opinion, but I think that's a little ridiculous. Ah, the good old "it's only your opinion". How are the two supposed to be related exactly? clearly he thinks that a greater emphasis on God in schools would lead to a more moral lifestyle and a more morally aware society. this is a pretty common line of thinking that most, if not all, Christians agree with. it's arguable if it will or not, but that right there means his opinion isn't disgusting or inherently wrong, there are legitimate and valid arguments to be made that a greater focus on religion can lead to a more cohesive and moral society, just as there are legitimate and valid arguments to make against that position. since there can be a legitimate discussion about the issue, I think that means he's not an asshole for bringing it up, and he's not just pushing an agenda. he honestly perceives that as a way to help prevent tragedies like this from occurring. I could just as easily say that anyone who brought up gun-control is being an asshole and should shut up and is just pushing their agenda, but I don't do that because my disagreement with a position doesn't make the position an immoral one to take. Ok, so you don't have anything to support a link between the two except that it's "the opinion" of most Christians. Since he did not even present it as his opinion but as fact, we can legitimately say that for doing so on the back of a national tragedy he's an asshole promoting his agenda. I didn't say I don't have anything to support a link between the two. of course he presented it as a fact, in his opinion it is a fact that it would have helped. and no, a national tragedy does not mean that everyone who might have a different opinion than you has to shut up about it. I'm in favour of gun control and I shut up the pro gun control shit in the tl topic about the tragedy on the basis of basic human decency. It's not about who you think is right, it's about not using something like this for your own ends.
I agree that these events can be exploited by certain people to promote certain political or religious views. But it seems to me that you're unfairly assuming that this is the case. Couldn't it easily be that people bring up these views, whether its gun control, or religion, not because they have a personal agenda, but because they feel it could save the lives of children and prevent future massacres? In that context, how can it be considered unethical to bring forward these propositions? I.e., what if their "agenda" is to prevent further massacres of this kind, and they believe they know how and want to share those views?
The only way I see it as being unethical is that this might be a sensitive time in which people related to those who suffered (or those who suffered themselves) may not want to hear such discussions that bring up the events that they are still struggling to come to terms with. But as long as no one is forcing them to browse certain forums, in this case I don't see anything wrong with people debating what the solutions should be, even immediately after the fact.
Edits: grammar edits, minor word changes
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On December 16 2012 04:37 sc2superfan101 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2012 04:29 kwizach wrote:On December 16 2012 04:18 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 16 2012 04:11 kwizach wrote:On December 16 2012 04:09 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 16 2012 04:07 kwizach wrote:On December 16 2012 03:59 sc2superfan101 wrote:On December 15 2012 20:51 kwizach wrote:On December 15 2012 18:01 Adreme wrote:On December 15 2012 11:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Mike Huckabee is really a piece of work i.e. an Asshole. What exactly did he do this time? He said that keeping God out of American schools contributed to having shootings like this one. Like Stealthblue said, he really is an asshole. that's not being an asshole. It is. The two are completely unrelated, and the only thing he's doing is pushing his agenda. in your opinion they are unrelated. in many other people's opinion, they are not unrelated at all. I guess you could say that you disagree with his opinion and that because you disagree, he's an asshole for having that opinion, but I think that's a little ridiculous. Ah, the good old "it's only your opinion". How are the two supposed to be related exactly? clearly he thinks that a greater emphasis on God in schools would lead to a more moral lifestyle and a more morally aware society. this is a pretty common line of thinking that most, if not all, Christians agree with. it's arguable if it will or not, but that right there means his opinion isn't disgusting or inherently wrong, there are legitimate and valid arguments to be made that a greater focus on religion can lead to a more cohesive and moral society, just as there are legitimate and valid arguments to make against that position. since there can be a legitimate discussion about the issue, I think that means he's not an asshole for bringing it up, and he's not just pushing an agenda. he honestly perceives that as a way to help prevent tragedies like this from occurring. I could just as easily say that anyone who brought up gun-control is being an asshole and should shut up and is just pushing their agenda, but I don't do that because my disagreement with a position doesn't make the position an immoral one to take. Ok, so you don't have anything to support a link between the two except that it's "the opinion" of most Christians. Since he did not even present it as his opinion but as fact, we can legitimately say that for doing so on the back of a national tragedy he's an asshole promoting his agenda. I didn't say I don't have anything to support a link between the two. (though, I'm not very interested in having this argument right now. maybe later) of course he presented it as a fact, in his opinion it is a fact that it would have helped. and no, a national tragedy does not mean that everyone who might have a different opinion than you has to shut up about it.
Huckabee knows very well that there is no serious study or any evidence that indicates Christians are less violent than Atheists. And that's not even what he's saying, since his point was not only that the Christian faith made people less violent but that the Christian faith should appear in school for all students. There is, again, ZERO evidence that this would make people less violent, and ZERO evidence or reason why it would prevent tragedies like this one. It is, however, the agenda he defends regardless of the shootings (bringing Christianity back into the public sphere). That's why presenting as factual something that isn't, and using a national tragedy in order to push forward his agenda, makes him an asshole.
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You should consider, however, the possibility that the social function once served by the church is now left unfulfilled or is fulfilled by an at least equally ominous structure. Sure, the role of traditional Christianity has declined in the West for a good reason, but is that decline an entirely good thing? Surely if your answer is an unequivocal "YES!" you might suspect that perhaps too simple to be true?
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On December 16 2012 14:18 sam!zdat wrote:
You should consider, however, the possibility that the social function once served by the church is now left unfulfilled or is fulfilled by an at least equally ominous structure. Sure, the role of traditional Christianity has declined in the West for a good reason, but is that decline an entirely good thing? Surely if your answer is an unequivocal "YES!" you might suspect that perhaps too simple to be true?
I would argue the decline in church attendance and influence correlates quite well with the widespread integration of communication technology and information dissemination. Where church once played a center role in maintaining social relationships, better ways of doing so have taken root. I see it as a response to technology more than the cause of moral decay.
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No you're not seeing my point. Think past a naive correlation or simplistic historical metanarrative of Reason over Ignorance, and try to think structurally about the role of the church in pre-modern society, try to abstract that role conceptually from its context, and then translate that role into back into our society and ask what structure is performing that functionality.
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Define which role(s) you're talking about and we'll answer (also, let me remind you that this wasn't even Huckabee's point, since the separation of church and state obviously does not preclude people from adhering to a religion).
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No I want to leave it as a question for you to consider. The point is not what my analysis is here. I don't want to present a positive thesis. Instead I want you to think about it and ask yourself whether you are really approaching the question of the role of religion in society with the appropriate seriousness and intellectual honesty.
Chances are, if your narrative about this is "religion is a bad bad oppressor and we killed it with Science" you might want to consider whether this might be just a tad bit too easy to be true. In your experience, when you've really studied some question and gotten to the heart of it, no matter what it is, does your final most informed opinion sound as simple as that? I bet not.
edit: I'm not trying to be mysterious. I don't have an easy answer to the question. But I am quite convinced that it is a serious question and that anybody who spouts off some hardline secularist dismissal has simply not grasped the complexity of the issue.
edit: and don't you dare say that "samizdat, if you don't present a positive thesis that means I get to ignore you and keep on thinking that I know the unequivocal answer" because I will strangle a puppy
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Whoa, whoa. Let's leave cute animal cruelty out of this discussion!
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don't worry, writing that sentence is about the most violent thing of which I am capable 
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EPT
