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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 4011

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
June 09 2016 21:09 GMT
#80201
white men still largest voting bloc.

people shouldn't underestimate trump support. his demo will be turning out and if the turnout is depressed by negative attacks sticking on hillary, this can be trouble.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21685 Posts
June 09 2016 21:09 GMT
#80202
On June 10 2016 06:04 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
The Obamacare-fueled fireworks, poison pills and government shutdown threats that have become commonplace in the funding fights of the Obama era may be nowhere to be found this year, if a ho-hum subcommittee vote on a normally contentious appropriations bill is a sign of where things are headed.

The bill, the Labor-Health and Human Services appropriations bill, is usually the site of a variety of partisan flash points, Obamacare funding not the least of them. It provides funding for Health and Human Services as well as the Labor Department, and thus, in the past, has provided an opportunity for Republicans to take swipes at some of the Obama initiatives they hate the most. The funding legislation for FY 2017 that passed out of a Senate Appropriations subcommittee Tuesday was the first Labor-HHS appropriations bill in seven years to be cobbled together in a bipartisan fashion, without any new policy riders.

“This isn’t the bill I would have written on my own, and I know it’s not the bill you would have written on your own,” Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA), the ranking member of the subcommittee, said at the hearing Tuesday, referring to its chair, Sen. Roy Blunt (R-MO).

She praised it as a "bipartisan compromise" that “doesn’t include any new policy riders that would have poisoned the bill and made it partisan.”

Blunt’s office cast the bill’s easy passage as part of the GOP’s argument that they can govern responsibly while in charge of the the U.S. Senate.

“Senator Blunt and the Republican leadership have made it a priority to get back to regular order and get to work after the GOP takeover of Senate leadership,” Brian Hart, Blunt’s spokesman, said in an email to TPM. “Senator Blunt and Senator Murray were committed to working together on a bill and focusing on important priorities like funding for cancer and Alzheimer’s research, year-round Pell Grants, and efforts to fight opioid abuse.”

Contrast the happy, bipartisan spirit with last year’s version of legislation, passed after Republicans obtained their Senate majority, which Murray then said “disappointed” her because it would “would hurt families and communities.”

That bill dismantled funding for the HHS portions of Obamacare while proposing major cuts to other federal health programs, and would have likely drawn a veto threat from the administration. Murray said that it had "no chance of becoming law and only push us closer to another budget crisis."

(The bill was eventually cast aside when Congress went with an omnibus to fund the government).

A senior GOP aide told Morning Consult ahead of Tuesday’s vote that, “We will fund all of the things we need to fund to try to keep it bipartisan,” even if it attracts the heat of hardliners like Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX), who led a government shutdown over Obamacare funding in 2013.


Source

"The elections are coming, quick, pretend to be remotely acceptable at your job"
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Surth
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Germany456 Posts
June 09 2016 21:10 GMT
#80203
On June 10 2016 05:55 SK.Testie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2016 05:43 Surth wrote:
I think we could say that there are very probably no large-scale societies that have not been dependent socially and economically on creating a subjected class through some form of Othering. But make no mistake, cops are not just shooting blacks on the street because of class. There's also still a bunch of people who just happen to be more trigger-happy when they see dark skin.


13% of your population responsible for 50% of the violence. You cannot stop a personal bias on this. You see one group as more violent over and over, you will likely shoot them at a different rate.
Considering whites are responsible for less than 50% of the violence in America they had
67 or so shot in the same time that blacks had 27. At least half of which were justified killings. Taken into account for crime proportionality, this is fine. Taken into account for general population size, it would be "problematic". But it's not because of what we know of crime proportionality.

Not arguing against bad police conduct, I feel this argument in particular is disingenuous. Police, firefighters, and first responders are attacked and shot at by black communities far more often than their white counterparts.

KwarK linked a good article on actual police abuse. In many of the cases it was from black officers themselves. Which doesn't mean blacks can't be racist against blacks, but... this particular argument I feel is a bad one.

From the Hulk Film Critic on Spike Lee's Do The Right Thing:
+ Show Spoiler +
Which just highlights how amazing Do The Right Thing is at navigating all of this. It has the courage not to express Radio Raheem's victimization through obvious and inarguable injustice, but get at the honest complexity of the event and everyone involved too. If race is a narrative, then this film isn't sugar-coating the narrative at all. Meaning the story is not a cartoonish series of mechanical events designed to teach and make us feel better. In fact, the characters are just as confused and conflicted as we are, often mediating on their identity and purpose, albeit through conflict... But we don't notice. Have you ever noticed how few critics note how much time the film spends being outright critical of Mookie? Who is perhaps a perfect characterization of wayward youth: obsessed with easy money, slacking at his job, not taking responsibility for his life / family. Spike lee, by playing the lead, isn't doing so to glorify the character (something people actually suggest), but to take responsibility for it. He is making himself culpable in such fault, confronting every aspect at the heart of african-american culture. To be clear: the film is not condoning his behavior; it's trying to get us to understand it. Even better, it's reflecting the nature of youth at large, Mookie is no different than the scores of misguided young protagonists who have come before. Besides, every character in Do The Right Thing wrestles with their own particular philosophy, and all seem to have a vice of coping or make a mistake. Da Mayor, our venerable vagrant, must thrive on alcohol to even deal with the life he's seen, an approximation of a generation embattled with civil rights. Mother Sister, haunted by songs of the past. These are human beings. And what the film postulates is that we all have the right to be human beings with vices, and perspective, and anger. It's part of our human narrative. And even now, there is a fight to shape the narrative of who michael brown is and the events that led to his death. Hulk can guarantee the narrative will change more.

Which brings us to the crux of the entire point:

Nobody deserves to die for such normal human fault.

Just as nobody deserves to die for playing their music too loud.

So why, when looking at the timeline of events, do we read such acts of provocation? How does a previous theft affect the situation in Ferguson? Why did those high school kids say "But if Radio Raheem turned down his music he wouldn't have died!" they see it as nothing more then activating a piece of what the individual can control to prevent a "Logical" succession of events, and yet it's nothing more than a shade of victim blaming. How many of the same people point out that if sal hadn't called it "Jungle music" and treated raheem with such disdain then he wouldn't have died either? Why is the over-exertion of force an accident? Why is it always an accident? Who deserves to die for acting like most normal human beings would in a situation of provocation?

To wit, how many times has Hulk seen dumbass white kids provoking officers in far more offending ways to far lesser results? Hulk's seen people do dumb enough things to be roughed up, arrested and even charged, but it's almost always under the safety of knowing they're not going to be gunned down or choked to death... You know, for some mysterious reason! But that difference is everything, isn't it? Hulk's seen countless riots after sporting events and seen the cops laughing as a bunch of white college kids jumped on cars. Meanwhile, one of Hulk's friends got singled out from the fray and called "A fucking terrorist" and told "Just give me a reason to put this gun up your Arab ass and pull the trigger!" (fact: he was indian). Hulk had to drag said friend back 10 blocks from fighting with the cop. We later lodged complaints to zero response. And the police just let the dumbass college kids have their fun. But it wasn't until a young white girl was tragically killed that the police completely actually changed their tactics. The thing is that hulk 100% understands that these are just anecdotes, objective proof of nothing, but we'd be idiotic to ignore the stark difference.

Young black males, ostensibly no different than any other males in terms of psychology, face dire consequences of taking up rightful anger with undue death and criticism. Like the tweet says, years later we're still asking why mookie threw the trashcan instead of why they killed radio raheem. And the problem is we've seen this story before. We talked about this just a year ago with oscar grant and fruitvale. But it was before that too: today it's michael brown, but just a moment ago it was eric garner. Before that? Kimani gray. Kendrick mcdade. Timothy russell. Ervin jefferson. Amadou diallo. Patrick dorismond. Ousmane zongo. Timonthy stansbury jr. Sean bell. Orlando barlow. Aaron campbell. Victor steen. Steven eugene washington. Alonzo ashley. Wendell allen. Ronald madison. James brissette. Travares mcgill. Ramarley graham. Which is nothing to say of tarika wilson. Aiyana jones. Miriam carey. Shereese francis. Shantel davis. Sharmel edwards. Rekia boyd. Tyisha miller. And yvette smith.

Some of these stories involve some kind of small provocation. Some of these events border on straight-up murder. But all of these stories feature one similarity: a "Misunderstanding" of law enforcement based on an impossible expectation for the victims' non-behavior. A behavior which cannot express fear, anger, or involuntary movement on the off-chance that behavior might be misinterpreted as violent. It is an expectation, which if not met, results in death. Even the onion nailed the insanity of this. But worst of all it means the line of tacit permission for officers is pushed all the way to the edge of reason. Why else would any of these acts of provocation, none of which are deserving of capital execution, most often result in paid-leave and a slap on the wrist? "Well it was an accident." we reason. Or "They thought they had a gun." of course they did. Largely because if one is going into a situation with that expectation, then that expectation is what will be sought. And when people get incensed about such a ridiculous state of expectation, they are then required by society to approach it as martin luther king would have, lest they be labeled as riotous animals. Our greater society expects these offenses to be met with sadness. A solemn vigil. A tragedy and the good wishing that no more blood be spilled, which will in turn solve everything or something. But instead of solving? We've enacted a series of measures that make it easier for this to happen and militarized the police, while simultaneously removing cops that walk beats.

It's impossible to do the right thing when no one seems to care when the wrong things are done to you.
i believe your actions dishonour Starcraft 2 LotV cybersport!
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
June 09 2016 21:10 GMT
#80204
On June 10 2016 05:40 amazingxkcd wrote:


golden

You have to wonder what was going through her head when she tried to attack him on deleting digital information

She just like set herself up for it and all he had to do was alleyoop
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21685 Posts
June 09 2016 21:11 GMT
#80205
On June 10 2016 05:52 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2016 05:28 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 10 2016 05:22 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
SAN FRANCISCO — In a victory for gun control advocates, a federal appeals court said Thursday people do not have a right to carry concealed weapons in public under the Second Amendment.

An 11-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals said law enforcement officials can require applicants for a concealed weapons permit to show they are in immediate danger or have another good reason for a permit beyond self-defense.

The decision overturned a 2014 ruling by a smaller 9th Circuit panel and came in a lawsuit over the denial of concealed weapons permits by a sheriff in San Diego County.

California generally prohibits people from carrying handguns in public without such a permit. State law requires applicants to show good moral character, have good cause and take a training course.

In San Diego County, the sheriff required applicants to show supporting documents such as restraining orders against possible attackers to show good cause for a permit. The requirement prompted a lawsuit by residents who were denied a permit.

During oral arguments before the 9th Circuit panel, Paul Clement, an attorney for the residents, argued that the self-defense standard should be sufficient and asking for more violates the 2nd Amendment right to bear arms.

California Solicitor General Edward DuMont countered that there was a long and rich tradition of restricting concealed weapons in cities and towns. California officials sought to intervene in the case after the San Diego sheriff declined to appeal.

California officials said loosening concealed weapons permitting standards and allowing more people to carry guns threatens law enforcement officials and endangers the public.

Clement countered that there was no evidence that crime went up in counties such as Fresno and Sacramento that had more permissive "good cause" standards.


Source

Maybe a silly question but how does this pertain to open carry?
Surely open carry should be easier to qualify for then concealed carry. And while you may not get a permit to hide your gun on your person you can still openly wear it.
I am confused Oo


Basically here is how it has worked historically:

1) 2nd Amendment was passed, and only applied to the Federal Government (pre 14th amendment this is true of all of the Bill of Rights).
2) Most states adopted some form of the 2nd Amendment into their own Constitutions (as well as much of the other provisions of the BoR). Some also included explicit carve-outs that they could prevent concealed carry.
2A) People argue whether the explicit carve outs indicate that Congress could not regulate concealed carry, or whether they could and these Constitutions were being more explicit.
2B) Regardless, at the time, open carry was the norm, and concealed carry was considered dishonorable and for criminals. Most men who carried at the time open-carried.
3) 14th Amendment, eventually this results in most of the BoR also being applied against the states. This is why the argument of 2A is important for state regulations.
4) Currently there is an argument over Open vs. Concealed carry, and whether each or both can be totally banned by a state. The argument for banning concealed carry is seen in 2B. However, there is an argument that Concealed carry is now the normal way to carry and open carry is considered somewhat intimidating (the car dealerships on the South Side open carry for this reason). Thus courts are wrestling with which regulations are allouw:

A) States can ban all carrying outside the home (not likely to be correct)
B) Both open and concealed carry are Constitutionally required(also not likely to be correct, but more likely than A)
C) Open carry is constitutionally required (possible)
D) Concealed carry is required (possible if the court accepts that concealed is now culturally what open used to be)
E) A state must allow either open or concealed carry, but need not allow both (probably the highest % chance, so long as they don't just outright overruled Heller).


Thanks, that clears it up nicely
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
June 09 2016 21:13 GMT
#80206
Just in - 2006 Hillary Clinton endorses Trump's border policies!

ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
June 09 2016 21:14 GMT
#80207
On June 10 2016 06:10 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2016 05:40 amazingxkcd wrote:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/741007091947556864


golden

You have to wonder what was going through her head when she tried to attack him on deleting digital information

She just like set herself up for it and all he had to do was alleyoop


Dis gon be good

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
amazingxkcd
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
June 09 2016 21:15 GMT
#80208
at the very least, we're witnessing a paradigm shift in presidential campaigns. this is going to get fun to witness
The world is burning and you rather be on this terrible website discussing video games and your shallow feelings
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 09 2016 21:16 GMT
#80209
On June 10 2016 06:14 ticklishmusic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2016 06:10 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
On June 10 2016 05:40 amazingxkcd wrote:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/741007091947556864


golden

You have to wonder what was going through her head when she tried to attack him on deleting digital information

She just like set herself up for it and all he had to do was alleyoop


Dis gon be good


His response was hilarious because he asked how long it took her team to think it up and some dumb crack about emails.

It was 5 minutes. Both the tweets are time stamped. The joke is way better when it makes the person telling it look like an idiot.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
CannonsNCarriers
Profile Joined April 2010
United States638 Posts
June 09 2016 21:16 GMT
#80210
On June 10 2016 06:10 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2016 05:40 amazingxkcd wrote:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/741007091947556864


golden

You have to wonder what was going through her head when she tried to attack him on deleting digital information

She just like set herself up for it and all he had to do was alleyoop


She responded in 5 minutes.

It took him between 30mins to 2 hours.
Dun tuch my cheezbrgr
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
June 09 2016 21:19 GMT
#80211
On June 10 2016 06:16 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2016 06:14 ticklishmusic wrote:
On June 10 2016 06:10 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
On June 10 2016 05:40 amazingxkcd wrote:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/741007091947556864


golden

You have to wonder what was going through her head when she tried to attack him on deleting digital information

She just like set herself up for it and all he had to do was alleyoop


Dis gon be good


His response was hilarious because he asked how long it took her team to think it up and some dumb crack about emails.

It was 5 minutes. Both the tweets are time stamped. The joke is way better when it makes the person telling it look like an idiot.


The joke is he handily won his party's nomination against a split field of candidates all attacking him with a campaign staff of less than a hundred.

And she had just as difficult a time, taking even longer to become announced the presumed nominee, with over 800 campaign staffers when she had only one candidate to fight against who wasn't even a member of her party before this primary.

And that she's telling him to delete his twitter (delete digital information) of all people with what happened in her email scandal.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23231 Posts
June 09 2016 21:19 GMT
#80212
Didn't take long for people to go right back to "slavery was 200 years ago". First No, again please read a history book (not from Texas). Second there is plenty that was done wrong between slavery and today. It's mind blowing how oblivious people are on this.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Surth
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Germany456 Posts
June 09 2016 21:21 GMT
#80213
On June 10 2016 06:19 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
The joke is he handily won his party's nomination against a split field of candidates all attacking him with a campaign staff of less than a hundred.

And she had just as difficult a time, taking even longer to become announced the presumed nominee, with over 800 campaign staffers when she had only one candidate to fight against who wasn't even a member of her party before this primary.

And that she's telling him to delete his twitter (delete digital information) of all people with what happened in her email scandal.

I think you could make a convincing argument that it was actually precisely the split field of candidates that may have allowed him to win.
i believe your actions dishonour Starcraft 2 LotV cybersport!
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
June 09 2016 21:22 GMT
#80214
On June 10 2016 06:19 GreenHorizons wrote:
Didn't take long for people to go right back to "slavery was 200 years ago". First No, again please read a history book (not from Texas). Second there is plenty that was done wrong between slavery and today. It's mind blowing how oblivious people are on this.


I think everyone is aware of it.

It's just the argument originally began with 'white people today are guilty of the enslavement of black people' so that's the go-to instant-rebuttal of that statement.
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
June 09 2016 21:23 GMT
#80215
On June 10 2016 05:38 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2016 05:33 WhiteDog wrote:
On June 10 2016 04:23 Sermokala wrote:
Only a few people owned slaves but the economy was built on that slave labor. If you owned a cotton shirt or ate a product with suger in it or were involved in any way with some of those products you were involved in the slave trade and enjoyed their labor. That your ancestors didn't have the opportunity to literally own other people doesn't absolve you of the gilt.

The economy was also based around the exploitation of white workers... And it is still the case. Your reasoning is akin to considering a miner who happens to be 16 years old to be responsible for slavery.
We have a common responsability to help the poor and the weakest in society, we have no responsability over the crime of a minority of our ancestors.

You don't jail someone for killing someone else for the actual murder but to stop other people from freely murdering. People are equating guilt of a crime with some sort of needed punishment for it. People are just asking to deal with the societal impact of that crime our ancestors committed.

Can someone confirm this is true in the US?

In Croatia's laws, which are basically a copy of all the european- roman derivative laws, we do indeed punish people for commiting a crime. Thats one of the goals of the punishment. They serve retribution, special prevention (for that person), general prevention (for everyone else not to commit crime) and rehabillitation. I believe this is how it is in the rest of Europe.

I want to see if this guy has no clue on what he is talking aboug on this issue aswell.

sorry for dem one liners
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
June 09 2016 21:23 GMT
#80216
On June 10 2016 06:21 Surth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2016 06:19 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
The joke is he handily won his party's nomination against a split field of candidates all attacking him with a campaign staff of less than a hundred.

And she had just as difficult a time, taking even longer to become announced the presumed nominee, with over 800 campaign staffers when she had only one candidate to fight against who wasn't even a member of her party before this primary.

And that she's telling him to delete his twitter (delete digital information) of all people with what happened in her email scandal.

I think you could make a convincing argument that it was actually precisely the split field of candidates that may have allowed him to win.


That's certainly the picture the media painted but as candidates stopped dropping off he didn't stop winning any less, he just ended up winning more.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
June 09 2016 21:26 GMT
#80217
On June 10 2016 06:16 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2016 06:10 GGTeMpLaR wrote:
On June 10 2016 05:40 amazingxkcd wrote:
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/741007091947556864


golden

You have to wonder what was going through her head when she tried to attack him on deleting digital information

She just like set herself up for it and all he had to do was alleyoop


She responded in 5 minutes.

It took him between 30mins to 2 hours.

Math is hard for Trump. He still can’t figure out how much he is worth.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
June 09 2016 21:27 GMT
#80218
On June 10 2016 06:23 NukeD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2016 05:38 Sermokala wrote:
On June 10 2016 05:33 WhiteDog wrote:
On June 10 2016 04:23 Sermokala wrote:
Only a few people owned slaves but the economy was built on that slave labor. If you owned a cotton shirt or ate a product with suger in it or were involved in any way with some of those products you were involved in the slave trade and enjoyed their labor. That your ancestors didn't have the opportunity to literally own other people doesn't absolve you of the gilt.

The economy was also based around the exploitation of white workers... And it is still the case. Your reasoning is akin to considering a miner who happens to be 16 years old to be responsible for slavery.
We have a common responsability to help the poor and the weakest in society, we have no responsability over the crime of a minority of our ancestors.

You don't jail someone for killing someone else for the actual murder but to stop other people from freely murdering. People are equating guilt of a crime with some sort of needed punishment for it. People are just asking to deal with the societal impact of that crime our ancestors committed.

Can someone confirm this is true in the US?

In Croatia's laws, which are basically a copy of all the european- roman derivative laws, we do indeed punish people for commiting a crime. Thats one of the goals of the punishment. They serve retribution, special prevention (for that person), general prevention (for everyone else not to commit crime) and rehabillitation. I believe this is how it is in the rest of Europe.

I want to see if this guy has no clue on what he is talking aboug on this issue aswell.


how you describe is how it is in america as well.
sermo is just using unsound rhetoric.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
GGTeMpLaR
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States7226 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-06-09 21:29:17
June 09 2016 21:27 GMT
#80219
On June 10 2016 06:23 NukeD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2016 05:38 Sermokala wrote:
On June 10 2016 05:33 WhiteDog wrote:
On June 10 2016 04:23 Sermokala wrote:
Only a few people owned slaves but the economy was built on that slave labor. If you owned a cotton shirt or ate a product with suger in it or were involved in any way with some of those products you were involved in the slave trade and enjoyed their labor. That your ancestors didn't have the opportunity to literally own other people doesn't absolve you of the gilt.

The economy was also based around the exploitation of white workers... And it is still the case. Your reasoning is akin to considering a miner who happens to be 16 years old to be responsible for slavery.
We have a common responsability to help the poor and the weakest in society, we have no responsability over the crime of a minority of our ancestors.

You don't jail someone for killing someone else for the actual murder but to stop other people from freely murdering. People are equating guilt of a crime with some sort of needed punishment for it. People are just asking to deal with the societal impact of that crime our ancestors committed.

Can someone confirm this is true in the US?

In Croatia's laws, which are basically a copy of all the european- roman derivative laws, we do indeed punish people for commiting a crime. Thats one of the goals of the punishment. They serve retribution, special prevention (for that person), general prevention (for everyone else not to commit crime) and rehabillitation. I believe this is how it is in the rest of Europe.

I want to see if this guy has no clue on what he is talking aboug on this issue aswell.



I believe the general consensus in most modern societies is that jailing someone isn't to punish them but prevent them from causing more harm to society.

It's the reason the death penalty has grown less and less popular. You don't really see a difference in preventing suffering between jailing someone vs executing them, execution is just a form of 'revenge' against someone.

Any sort of law enforcement is taught that you don't shoot to kill someone, you shoot when you have reason to believe you have to do so to prevent them from hurting you, i.e. self defense or the safety of others
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States5585 Posts
June 09 2016 21:28 GMT
#80220
On June 10 2016 05:25 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2016 05:17 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 10 2016 05:15 Sermokala wrote:
On June 10 2016 05:12 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 10 2016 05:05 Sermokala wrote:
On June 10 2016 04:55 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 10 2016 04:42 Surth wrote:
On June 10 2016 04:25 Gorsameth wrote:
On June 10 2016 04:23 Sermokala wrote:
Only a few people owned slaves but the economy was built on that slave labor. If you owned a cotton shirt or ate a product with suger in it or were involved in any way with some of those products you were involved in the slave trade and enjoyed their labor. That your ancestors didn't have the opportunity to literally own other people doesn't absolve you of the gilt.

No, no one is guilty of the crimes of their predecessors.

I am not responsible for the Dutch slave trade any more then a German is responsible for the holocaust.
You say that like it is an obvious thing. But it might not be an obvious thing.

If nobody is guilty of the crimes of their predecessors, is nobody also also deserving of their inheritance? I ask because I do not know. stills, lets talk about collective guilt. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warschauer_Kniefall

10.000 years ago one caveman bashed in the skull of another. Extrapolate forward and the entire world is guilty of murder.
Do we imprison the entire world?
The answer is obviously no. Do we all pay penance for this murder? Again, no we obviously don't.

We don't imprison a son for the crimes of his father.

So why should I be guilty of the crimes of my ancestors? Yes I benefit from from their slave trade but the entire world benefited from their linage not being ended by the sharp edge of a rock 10.000 years ago.

Now I certainly understand that what happened was wrong and that the so called "Dutch golden age" is a black mark on our history but to consider any individual or collective guilty of crimes they had 0 influence on is imo preposterous.

Yes the 'white man' was responsible for slavery and yes people still suffer from the lingering effects but the way to fight it is to try and make sure it never happens again and that they have the same rights and chances as anyone else.
It is not to fight over guilt about something 200 years in the past.

The shitty socio-economic place that black people in the USA isn't 200 years the past. They barely had the right to vote 50 years ago.


On June 10 2016 04:23 Sermokala wrote:
Only a few people owned slaves but the economy was built on that slave labor. If you owned a cotton shirt or ate a product with suger in it or were involved in any way with some of those products you were involved in the slave trade and enjoyed their labor. That your ancestors didn't have the opportunity to literally own other people doesn't absolve you of the gilt.

Slavery ended 200 years ago. Arguing about the 'white mans' current day guilt over slavery is what we were talking about.
And again, I, you nor anyone else here, is responsible for blacks not having a vote 50 years ago.

Now to be clear I am not saying racism is not a serious problem in the US to this day. It certainly is but I am not guilty of blacks not having a vote 20 years before I was born, some guys great grandfather from being a slave or my great grandfather being a slaver.

Instead of pointing blame at those who are blameless, how about you try to fix the problems instead.

And the problems are the cause of what? I dare you to say something other then slavery.

If you don't acknowledge the cause of a problem how can you solve it?

Yes its slavery, grats. you want a cookie?
Again, that does not make anyone alive today responsible for slavery or guilty of it...

People today responsible for slavery they're responsible for benefiting from it and not acknowledging it. Its the same as Egypt and the pyramids. Everyone knows slavery is responsible for it so no one credits the Egyptians for building them, but they still get a ton of tourism from it.

Everyone who went to elementary school and learned about the pyramids is also aware of slavery.

On June 10 2016 05:38 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 10 2016 05:33 WhiteDog wrote:
On June 10 2016 04:23 Sermokala wrote:
Only a few people owned slaves but the economy was built on that slave labor. If you owned a cotton shirt or ate a product with suger in it or were involved in any way with some of those products you were involved in the slave trade and enjoyed their labor. That your ancestors didn't have the opportunity to literally own other people doesn't absolve you of the gilt.

The economy was also based around the exploitation of white workers... And it is still the case. Your reasoning is akin to considering a miner who happens to be 16 years old to be responsible for slavery.
We have a common responsability to help the poor and the weakest in society, we have no responsability over the crime of a minority of our ancestors.

Theres a HUGE difference between the poor and the literal slaves in a society. Its not a crime of a minority of our ancestors its a crime of all of our ancestors. And we're not trying to even overcome the crime itself but the problem that that crime has created.

You don't jail someone for killing someone else for the actual murder but to stop other people from freely murdering. People are equating guilt of a crime with some sort of needed punishment for it. People are just asking to deal with the societal impact of that crime our ancestors committed.

You jail the actual murderer, not their descendants, except in the DPRK. It's not about punishment specifically, it's about a person not being responsible for what someone else did before they were even alive. Look, slavery, I disavow, okay? I disavow. But we got rid of slavery. People of any skin color in the US today live better than even Lincoln did. The fact that our society has issues is something that needs actual solutions.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
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