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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
SK.Testie
Profile Blog Joined January 2007
Canada11084 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-30 05:24:03
March 30 2016 05:14 GMT
#69921
Depends on the criminal offense and if that criminal ever pays taxes.
Taxation without representation is kinda BS.
But considering many of those criminals were on welfare to begin with and never paid taxes in their life it's hard to say on a case by case basis.

Side note:
Do you feel Breivik should be able to walk free again? Y/N/Death.
Poll: Breivik

Lock him up for good (13)
 
65%

Why haven't we killed him yet? (5)
 
25%

Freedom once his debt to society is repaid (2)
 
10%

20 total votes

Your vote: Breivik

(Vote): Freedom once his debt to society is repaid
(Vote): Lock him up for good
(Vote): Why haven't we killed him yet?



Also, this is a truly ludicrous "solution" to crime in spoiler below.
+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/cities-have-begun-to-challenge-a-bedrock-of-american-justice-theyre-paying-criminals-not-to-kill/2016/03/26/f25a6b9c-e9fc-11e5-a6f3-21ccdbc5f74e_story.html?tid=sm_tw
Social Justice is a fools errand. May all the adherents at its church be thwarted. Of all the religions I have come across, it is by far the most detestable.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-30 05:17:07
March 30 2016 05:16 GMT
#69922
i think mass murderers strongly suspected of being violent psychopaths (ones with a strong capability of killing without remorse) should be locked up forever or killed but i honestly dont care which... not much difference to me, and the cost differential depends on the justice system. i'll vote lock him up for good

yea actually on second thought i'd rather lock up these types of people... if they feel compelled to create some sort of art in captivity, it's more interesting that way
posting on liquid sites in current year
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-30 05:41:50
March 30 2016 05:31 GMT
#69923
Breivik is being locked up because he is inherently dangerous, not because his guilt to society isn't payed.(after he has served his 21 year period, that is). Norway doesn't have punitive lifelong sentences.
Soularion
Profile Blog Joined January 2014
Canada2764 Posts
March 30 2016 05:33 GMT
#69924
This NY debate is gonna be wonderful, really excited about it. Considering both of them are -very- close to NY, and Sanders went fucking ham in the last debate, it's gonna be great. Might be the most impactful debate yet, considering how much Sanders needs to win New York!
Writermaru pls
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-30 06:14:13
March 30 2016 06:13 GMT
#69925
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 30 2016 14:14 SK.Testie wrote:
Depends on the criminal offense and if that criminal ever pays taxes.
Taxation without representation is kinda BS.
But considering many of those criminals were on welfare to begin with and never paid taxes in their life it's hard to say on a case by case basis.

Side note:
Do you feel Breivik should be able to walk free again? Y/N/Death.
Poll: Breivik

Lock him up for good (13)
 
65%

Why haven't we killed him yet? (5)
 
25%

Freedom once his debt to society is repaid (2)
 
10%

20 total votes

Your vote: Breivik

(Vote): Freedom once his debt to society is repaid
(Vote): Lock him up for good
(Vote): Why haven't we killed him yet?



Also, this is a truly ludicrous "solution" to crime in spoiler below.
+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/cities-have-begun-to-challenge-a-bedrock-of-american-justice-theyre-paying-criminals-not-to-kill/2016/03/26/f25a6b9c-e9fc-11e5-a6f3-21ccdbc5f74e_story.html?tid=sm_tw


Breivik on being locked up according to wikipedia:

"I must admit this is the worst thing that could have happened to me as it is the ultimate humiliation. To send a political activist to a mental hospital is more sadistic and evil than to kill him! It is a fate worse than death."
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
puerk
Profile Joined February 2015
Germany855 Posts
March 30 2016 06:31 GMT
#69926
On March 30 2016 14:13 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2016 13:46 Nyxisto wrote:
I see re-socialization as the necessary requirement for the state's right to lock someone up in the first place. After all if your guilt with society is payed you ought to have the right to reintegrate and become a regular citizen again, otherwise I can't really see how punishment is justifiable in the first place.


This is what I would call the "theory of compounding victories" which, although I am generally on the side of criminal justice reform, really pisses me off just from an argument standpoint.

For example, in California and elsewhere recently, they argued death row was cruel and unusual because it took so long to get executed. But it only takes so long because previous victories by anti-death penalty advocates.

The same is true for felons, who never regained voting rights in the past because they never lived long enough (in general) to get off parole, or were simply executed summarily for crimes we no longer execute for. These developments in no way are indicative that felons are now more worthy to vote than they were in the past.

The re-enfranchisement lobby is misplaced as it should be low priority (aside from its obvious partisan strategies) with things like eliminating certain crimes and retroactively expunging records for those crimes being an actual solution to real problems, rather than a strategy to win elections.


This post makes no sense at all.
Especially as an answer to Nyxistos post. It boils down to "we fucked convicts over even faster and harder in the past, we lost our true ways, that is why you can see the flaws in the system better now"

That in no way excuses those flaws, the american justice system utterly sucks at the goals of rehabilitation and justice (it is not "just" but racist and vindicative).

How can anyone argue in good faith that human rights and dignitiy in society should be "low priority"? You sound so hateful....
parkufarku
Profile Blog Joined March 2014
882 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-30 07:23:10
March 30 2016 07:22 GMT
#69927
[image loading]
www.youtube.com

Go to 2:27. When confronted about her flip flopping on a stance, she misdirects the answer, adds vague details, then distracts the question with potential solution. She has a silver tongue. She is the epitome of a true politician. Whether corrupt or not, I give her props, she is incredibly intelligent with words.

GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23103 Posts
March 30 2016 07:50 GMT
#69928
I should say Wisconsin and PA voters are both reporting the same issues as AZ with registrations being switched/not properly noted.

Anyone want to take a guess at how long the lines will be?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Surth
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
Germany456 Posts
March 30 2016 08:01 GMT
#69929
On March 30 2016 15:13 IgnE wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 30 2016 14:14 SK.Testie wrote:
Depends on the criminal offense and if that criminal ever pays taxes.
Taxation without representation is kinda BS.
But considering many of those criminals were on welfare to begin with and never paid taxes in their life it's hard to say on a case by case basis.

Side note:
Do you feel Breivik should be able to walk free again? Y/N/Death.
Poll: Breivik

Lock him up for good (13)
 
65%

Why haven't we killed him yet? (5)
 
25%

Freedom once his debt to society is repaid (2)
 
10%

20 total votes

Your vote: Breivik

(Vote): Freedom once his debt to society is repaid
(Vote): Lock him up for good
(Vote): Why haven't we killed him yet?



Also, this is a truly ludicrous "solution" to crime in spoiler below.
+ Show Spoiler +
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/cities-have-begun-to-challenge-a-bedrock-of-american-justice-theyre-paying-criminals-not-to-kill/2016/03/26/f25a6b9c-e9fc-11e5-a6f3-21ccdbc5f74e_story.html?tid=sm_tw


Breivik on being locked up according to wikipedia:

"I must admit this is the worst thing that could have happened to me as it is the ultimate humiliation. To send a political activist to a mental hospital is more sadistic and evil than to kill him! It is a fate worse than death."


Breivik channeling some Foucault, eh
i believe your actions dishonour Starcraft 2 LotV cybersport!
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
March 30 2016 08:10 GMT
#69930
Do all prisoners lose the right to vote or only some?
WriterXiao8~~
OuchyDathurts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States4588 Posts
March 30 2016 08:32 GMT
#69931
Every Norwegian I've ever talked to have all said Breivik might only have the 20 year sentence but he'll never get out again. He'll be put into a psych unit or something and won't ever get out.
LiquidDota Staff
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23103 Posts
March 30 2016 08:34 GMT
#69932
Reports of voter registrations being switched/"not updated" in NY and CA too.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Deleted User 137586
Profile Joined January 2011
7859 Posts
March 30 2016 09:00 GMT
#69933
Any "source" for those reports that isn't "r/bernieforlife"
Cry 'havoc' and let slip the dogs of war
puerk
Profile Joined February 2015
Germany855 Posts
March 30 2016 09:04 GMT
#69934
On March 30 2016 03:00 Ghanburighan wrote:
The idea that we ought to increase the 2 percent central bank target is interesting for discussion. I hope you don't mind if I pull it apart from the rest of the discussion.

First, a few things need to be set aside. This isn't a political decision, but is done by the central bank, which is an apolitical institution (in fact, if there's an inkling that the central bank is no longer independent, people start losing confidence in the management of the economy which leads to FDI running off, and suchlike). That doesn't mean that it might not be a good idea for central bank governors to consider.

The trade off is generally between those that own property and those that do not. It's not simple though. As I understand, generally speaking the biggest winners are people with few savings and price-adjusted income (take someone who takes out bank loans to rent out apartments to other people: their loan loses value quickly, while they can increase rent reasonably often). The greatest losers are those with little income that live off their savings (old people). I don't know how to calculate the impact though, for example, I don't know how much larger the trade off would be from changing it from 2% to 3%.

There are many ripple effects to take into account. Let's start with some: bank loans will have higher interest rates. As bank loans will lose value quicker as the price of money depreciates, banks must ask for higher interest rates to make it worthwhile to give out loans. These can become prohibitive and slow down financial markets in that people cannot afford the interest rates. This is a problem for both private individuals and companies (and banks themselves).

One danger is that the people who are most likely to suffer ill effects are the most vulnerable. With high inflation, the cost of basic goods increases, so people who cannot scale back consumption suffer the most. Poor people spend more of their income on basic necessities such as rent, food, commutes, etc; costs you cannot live without easily. So their real income would decrease unless there's fast wage growth. This is generally unfortunate for competitiveness as companies would need to be able to quickly and frequently increase their revenue to keep up. If they hit a hitch, they'll lose competitiveness. Companies in countries with less inflation might be more inclined to innovate and spend on research and development because their loss of competitiveness isn't quite as quick.

This isn't to say that there aren't merits to this. For a country that is behind its neighbors in terms of wages and a general level of living standards might prefer such a shake-up. I don't quite see how this would apply to the US, though.

Also, with higher inflation and resulting wage growth, exports become relatively more difficult to sell as your labour and manufacture costs as a whole increase, requiring you to either cut profits to remain competitive (see the point about R&D above) or to increase your prices. On the reverse, imports become more desirable as you can buy them relatively cheaply. This will probably skew your trade balance. As the US already exports a great deal less than it imports (Source), this might be a problem.

I hope this serves as an introduction to the discussion. There's a great deal more to this topic but I ran out of time. I would also be glad if someone provided a way to quantify the effects.


just to be sure, what range of inflation are you talking about? to me those effects seem to be prominent at over 5% and not at the low levels we had in the past decades - and even if a 3% target came to pass i doubt we would reach it

i am also not sure that pushing for an individual saving based retirement (over government guaranteed social security) is a good idea for society, as it leads to adverse outcomes: increasing inequality and poverty
plated.rawr
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Norway1676 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-30 09:17:17
March 30 2016 09:05 GMT
#69935
On March 30 2016 17:32 OuchyDathurts wrote:
Every Norwegian I've ever talked to have all said Breivik might only have the 20 year sentence but he'll never get out again. He'll be put into a psych unit or something and won't ever get out.

Yea, he's got max sentence of 21 years plus 'forvaring' (which google translate tells me is custody, but i dont think that translates the function very well). Forvaring basically means that he'll recieve psychological evaluations every x years, or when situation demands a check, and unless there's been a significant improvement, he'll stay locked up untill the next check.

In practice, this means that he can stay locked up the rest of his life.

His recent evaluation is that he has not changed at all since he was apprehended. It has only been 5 years of prison thus far, but if nothing changes the following 15 years, his sentencing will be extended.

On March 30 2016 14:14 SK.Testie wrote:
Side note:
Do you feel Breivik should be able to walk free again? Y/N/Death.
Poll: Breivik

Lock him up for good (13)
 
65%

Why haven't we killed him yet? (5)
 
25%

Freedom once his debt to society is repaid (2)
 
10%

20 total votes

Your vote: Breivik

(Vote): Freedom once his debt to society is repaid
(Vote): Lock him up for good
(Vote): Why haven't we killed him yet?



[/spoiler]
Letting him out if he stops being a violent threat? Sure, his political standpoint isn't much worse than those of the fringe right parties of Norway, and would most probably be drowned out by them, so its not like he'd radicalize the political landscape any more than he's already done.

Death would probably be the worst choice. Turning him into a symbol and martyr for the radical right would be beneficial for them. As long as he's alive, however, he'll keep showing how petty and pathetic he is, as the most recent trial (Breivik versus the State of Norway) a few weeks back has shown. If anything will defuse his ideas and legacy, its himself.

Sorry to deviate from your presidental debate, but I felt i'd add some Norwegian perspective on this.
Savior broke my heart ;_; || twitch.tv/onnings
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23103 Posts
March 30 2016 09:23 GMT
#69936
On March 30 2016 18:00 Ghanburighan wrote:
Any "source" for those reports that isn't "r/bernieforlife"


Well the primary source would be voters, who are you expecting? I just showed how the NYT completely avoided even mentioning it happening let alone that the SoS confirmed it along with public testimony in AZ.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 30 2016 09:39 GMT
#69937
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23103 Posts
March 30 2016 09:42 GMT
#69938
On March 30 2016 18:39 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/danmericaCNN/status/714900895486590976


"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-30 09:51:24
March 30 2016 09:50 GMT
#69939
Not sure why Breivik is even a relevant example, if you talk about the justice system and why it is broken/works you don't talk about that one mass murderering psychopath with a manifesto which occurs once every few generations.

Edit: For the record I think Norway handled it really well.
WriterXiao8~~
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-30 10:11:52
March 30 2016 10:11 GMT
#69940
On March 30 2016 18:42 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 30 2016 18:39 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://twitter.com/danmericaCNN/status/714900895486590976


https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/714912553458147329

personally i dont actually see this being a problem

im annoyed thats shes antagonizing young voters by citing that as a reason shes not popular tho
posting on liquid sites in current year
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