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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 347

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
July 22 2013 02:37 GMT
#6921
On July 22 2013 11:25 Shiori wrote:
Show nested quote +
My original statement assumed that could be used as a reasonable proxy for happiness. Is that wrong? If so we can end my argument right there. But I think, ultimately, that if you vote for something you think that the thing in question is good, and therefore seeing it pass will make you happy.

The problem is that when one says "I want to do X because it makes me happy" they mean it makes them experience pleasure, or comfort, or some positive emotion that is, generally, self-oriented. If you vote for something that affects, say, illegal immigrants, it makes you "happy" in the sense that you know you did the right thing, but not in the sense that you're doing it because you wish to experience happiness and are therefore chasing it like some sort of drug.

I'm not using happiness in the motivational sense. I'm not saying that people are voting a certain way out of a self-interested desire to be happy, just that winning the vote will make the happy and that happiness is, by itself, a good thing.
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
July 22 2013 02:50 GMT
#6922
happiness is, by itself, a good thing.

I don't think you can have happiness by itself. It seems fundamentally contextual and relational, to me.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
July 22 2013 03:00 GMT
#6923
On July 22 2013 11:50 Shiori wrote:
Show nested quote +
happiness is, by itself, a good thing.

I don't think you can have happiness by itself. It seems fundamentally contextual and relational, to me.

Like what, there's good and bad happiness? Such a Puritan
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
July 22 2013 04:26 GMT
#6924
On July 22 2013 11:50 Shiori wrote:
Show nested quote +
happiness is, by itself, a good thing.

I don't think you can have happiness by itself. It seems fundamentally contextual and relational, to me.

Yes and no. You can definitely be in a good or bad mood without external influences (brain chemicals and whatnot). I doubt that plays a serious role in the happiness one might get from voting on a social policy though.
Shiori
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
3815 Posts
July 22 2013 13:57 GMT
#6925
On July 22 2013 12:00 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 22 2013 11:50 Shiori wrote:
happiness is, by itself, a good thing.

I don't think you can have happiness by itself. It seems fundamentally contextual and relational, to me.

Like what, there's good and bad happiness? Such a Puritan

I take "happiness" to be a sort of contentment born out of rational satisfaction. I don't think pleasure (say, from eating a cake) is really the same thing as being happy. I like the way Aristotle makes out happiness to essentially be a rational and virtuous existence. It's a tall order, but I think it's true.
SilverLeagueElite
Profile Joined April 2010
United States626 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-22 18:37:23
July 22 2013 18:30 GMT
#6926
I thought this was some hoax or a joke at first but seems legit.

Zimmerman emerges from hiding, helps family out of trapped car.

This event itself isn't political but the entire circumstances surrounding Zimmerman is rife with politics so I thought I'd post this here. I thought there would be an aftermath thread but alas. Some of the comments below the article are amusing.
DannyJ
Profile Joined March 2010
United States5110 Posts
July 22 2013 20:46 GMT
#6927
Zimmerman dons the cloak of the Dark Knight once again...
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 22 2013 21:08 GMT
#6928
House Republicans unveiled legislation Monday that dramatically cuts funding for the Environmental Protection Agency and various arts and wildlife programs.

The draft legislation (PDF), which will face committee hearings starting Tuesday, slashes the fiscal 2014 budget for the Interior Department and for the EPA by $5.5 billion from existing levels enacted for 2013 — a 19 percent cut that brings base funding down to $24.3 billion. It’s $4 billion below levels already required by sequestration — automatic spending cuts that both parties say are senseless and onerous.

House Appropriations Chairman Hal Rogers (R-KY) said the bill “reflects the extraordinarily hard choices needed to maintain critical investments and services for local communities,” while “dramatically scaling back lower-priority, or ‘nice-to-have’ programs.”

The proposal reflects the GOP’s opening salvo in what is shaping up to be an ugly battle to keep the government open when funding expires on September 30. Republicans are demanding a swath of new cuts to domestic programs, in part to protect the military budget from long-term spending reductions that the two sides agreed to in 2011.

Under the GOP’s draft spending bill, the EPA in particular takes a huge blow: its budget is cut by a whopping 34 percent, or $2.8 billion, bringing the new level to $5.5 billion. Other programs that take a hit include the National Park Service (9 percent cut), the Fish and Wildlife Service (27 percent cut) and the U.S. Geological Survey (9 percent cut).

Meanwhile, the bill increases funding to combat wildfires — which have ravaged parts of the country — by 16 percent, or $559 million more than the 2013 level.

“In addition,” Rogers said, defending the enormous cuts to the EPA, “by holding back overly zealous and unnecessary environmental regulations, this bill can have a positive effect on our economy and will help encourage job growth.”

The Smithsonian Institution and National Gallery of Art each face a 19 percent cut, while the National Endowments for the Arts and Humanities are cut by nearly half (or $71 million).


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Klondikebar
Profile Joined October 2011
United States2227 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-22 21:19:38
July 22 2013 21:18 GMT
#6929
“In addition,” Rogers said, defending the enormous cuts to the EPA, “by holding back overly zealous and unnecessary environmental regulations, this bill can have a positive effect on our economy and will help encourage job growth.”

I love the underpants gnome theory at work here.

1. Slash budgets for departments that we don't like.
2. ?????
3. JOBS YALL!

And I'm also tired of the assumption that jobs are this end all be all of economics. They aren't. Improved standard of living is. If we just wanted everyone to be employed we could easily have full employment paying everyone to dig ditches. But we wouldn't cheer for a great economy then.

I guess I don't so much care about the cuts themselves. I am just getting really sick of every bit of legislation being rubber stamped cause somehow it magically creates jobs.
#2throwed
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
July 22 2013 22:03 GMT
#6930
On July 23 2013 06:18 Klondikebar wrote:
“In addition,” Rogers said, defending the enormous cuts to the EPA, “by holding back overly zealous and unnecessary environmental regulations, this bill can have a positive effect on our economy and will help encourage job growth.”

I love the underpants gnome theory at work here.

1. Slash budgets for departments that we don't like.
2. ?????
3. JOBS YALL!

And I'm also tired of the assumption that jobs are this end all be all of economics. They aren't. Improved standard of living is. If we just wanted everyone to be employed we could easily have full employment paying everyone to dig ditches. But we wouldn't cheer for a great economy then.

I guess I don't so much care about the cuts themselves. I am just getting really sick of every bit of legislation being rubber stamped cause somehow it magically creates jobs.

I wish there was a rubber stamp for jobs. Instead, for the past 4 years, the rubber stamp has been for "difficult cuts" to government spending.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
July 22 2013 23:24 GMT
#6931
The Federal Election Commission is likely to vote Thursday to allow married same-sex couples to make joint political donations from an individual bank account, a privilege that has long been afforded to straight married couples.

If the FEC does alter its rules regarding donations from same-sex married couples, as expected, it would be one of the many changing federal regulations attributable to last month’s landmark Supreme Court ruling striking down the federal Defense of Marriage Act.

The FEC last examined the question of donations from married gay couples in April, when it issued an advisory opinion that concluded same-sex couples married under state law could not make joint political donations from an individual bank account. That advisory opinion was based on Section 3 of the Defense of Marriage Act. In that opinion, the FEC noted it could change its position if there was a Supreme Court ruling on DOMA.

“If DOMA is held to be unconstitutional by the Supreme Court - or is otherwise modified or repealed - the Commission will, upon request, revisit this issue,” the opinion said.

In that case, a same-sex couple, members of the gay-friendly Log Cabin Republicans, wanted to donate to the special election campaign of Massachusetts Senate candidate Dan Winslow, a pro-marriage-equality Republican. The couple had been married in Massachusetts.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
DoubleReed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States4130 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-22 23:52:47
July 22 2013 23:51 GMT
#6932
On July 23 2013 06:18 Klondikebar wrote:
“In addition,” Rogers said, defending the enormous cuts to the EPA, “by holding back overly zealous and unnecessary environmental regulations, this bill can have a positive effect on our economy and will help encourage job growth.”

I love the underpants gnome theory at work here.

1. Slash budgets for departments that we don't like.
2. ?????
3. JOBS YALL!

And I'm also tired of the assumption that jobs are this end all be all of economics. They aren't. Improved standard of living is. If we just wanted everyone to be employed we could easily have full employment paying everyone to dig ditches. But we wouldn't cheer for a great economy then.

I guess I don't so much care about the cuts themselves. I am just getting really sick of every bit of legislation being rubber stamped cause somehow it magically creates jobs.


Realistically, this is "Fire a bunch of people. THEN JOBS WILL APPEAR."

Cutting the public sector while there's still lots of private sector unemployment is just stupid. If we really wanted to create jobs, we should making some government programs that actually do things (and don't you dare suggest that there isn't any more that we could do). And if you ask me how we would pay for it, do you realize how little the wealthy pay in taxes? Romney had what, a 13% tax rate or something?

Soak the rich. Cut taxes on the middle class and make more public sector jobs either federally or by giving that money to the states, who also desperately need it.

It's idiotic how we treat the public sector like a bunch of moochers.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
July 22 2013 23:52 GMT
#6933
On July 23 2013 06:18 Klondikebar wrote:
“In addition,” Rogers said, defending the enormous cuts to the EPA, “by holding back overly zealous and unnecessary environmental regulations, this bill can have a positive effect on our economy and will help encourage job growth.”

I love the underpants gnome theory at work here.

1. Slash budgets for departments that we don't like.
2. ?????
3. JOBS YALL!

And I'm also tired of the assumption that jobs are this end all be all of economics. They aren't. Improved standard of living is. If we just wanted everyone to be employed we could easily have full employment paying everyone to dig ditches. But we wouldn't cheer for a great economy then.

I guess I don't so much care about the cuts themselves. I am just getting really sick of every bit of legislation being rubber stamped cause somehow it magically creates jobs.

The overly zealous and unnecessary regulations are exactly how it works to kill jobs. They seem to believe that the federal government is simply better than individuals at keeping their energy costs low, implementing energy standards and picking for them where to improve efficiency. People on the right have been documenting these things for ages. You don't need to go far to find specific areas that the EPA limits growth and adds costs unnecessarily for little or no gain.

Heck, improving the standard of living is hardly the goal here. Lately, you have to question whether the preservation of this or that environmental sector is done for the sake of the environment itself and not people. Health and safety be damned for people, we see this regulation doing this and that for the "environment." Not to mention myriad environmental activist groups sue the EPA (e.g. under CAA and CWA) to then settle the lawsuit for the regulations, taxpayers getting billed for the legal fees and regulation implementation fees, and then companies given unreasonable compliance time-frames. I'm all for vastly cutting their budget to limit the harm.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-23 00:17:33
July 23 2013 00:17 GMT
#6934
On July 23 2013 08:52 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2013 06:18 Klondikebar wrote:
“In addition,” Rogers said, defending the enormous cuts to the EPA, “by holding back overly zealous and unnecessary environmental regulations, this bill can have a positive effect on our economy and will help encourage job growth.”

I love the underpants gnome theory at work here.

1. Slash budgets for departments that we don't like.
2. ?????
3. JOBS YALL!

And I'm also tired of the assumption that jobs are this end all be all of economics. They aren't. Improved standard of living is. If we just wanted everyone to be employed we could easily have full employment paying everyone to dig ditches. But we wouldn't cheer for a great economy then.

I guess I don't so much care about the cuts themselves. I am just getting really sick of every bit of legislation being rubber stamped cause somehow it magically creates jobs.

The overly zealous and unnecessary regulations are exactly how it works to kill jobs. They seem to believe that the federal government is simply better than individuals at keeping their energy costs low, implementing energy standards and picking for them where to improve efficiency. People on the right have been documenting these things for ages. You don't need to go far to find specific areas that the EPA limits growth and adds costs unnecessarily for little or no gain.

Heck, improving the standard of living is hardly the goal here. Lately, you have to question whether the preservation of this or that environmental sector is done for the sake of the environment itself and not people. Health and safety be damned for people, we see this regulation doing this and that for the "environment." Not to mention myriad environmental activist groups sue the EPA (e.g. under CAA and CWA) to then settle the lawsuit for the regulations, taxpayers getting billed for the legal fees and regulation implementation fees, and then companies given unreasonable compliance time-frames. I'm all for vastly cutting their budget to limit the harm.

I'll just leave this here...

New Study: The Economic Benefits of EPA Regulations Massively Outweigh The Costs

[A] new study from the White House’s Office of Management and Budget [...] found that the benefits EPA regulations bring to the economy far outweigh the costs.

The way this works is pretty straight-forward. Environmental regulations do impose compliance costs on businesses, and can raise prices, which hurt economic growth. But they also create jobs by requiring pollution clean-up and prevention efforts. And perhaps even more importantly, they save the economy billions by avoiding pollution’s deleterious health effects. Particles from smoke stacks, for example, are implicated in respiratory diseases, heart attacks, infections and a host of other ailments, all of which require billions in health care costs per year to treat. Preventing those particles from going into the air means healthier and more productive citizens, who can go spend that money on something other than making themselves well again. [...]

The OMB found that a decade’s worth of major federal rules had produced annual benefits to the U.S. economy of between $193 billion and $800 billion and impose aggregate costs of $57 billion to $84 billion. “These ranges are reported in 2001 dollars and reflect the uncertain benefits and costs of each rule,” the report noted.

Source
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-23 00:38:08
July 23 2013 00:37 GMT
#6935
On July 23 2013 08:52 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2013 06:18 Klondikebar wrote:
“In addition,” Rogers said, defending the enormous cuts to the EPA, “by holding back overly zealous and unnecessary environmental regulations, this bill can have a positive effect on our economy and will help encourage job growth.”

I love the underpants gnome theory at work here.

1. Slash budgets for departments that we don't like.
2. ?????
3. JOBS YALL!

And I'm also tired of the assumption that jobs are this end all be all of economics. They aren't. Improved standard of living is. If we just wanted everyone to be employed we could easily have full employment paying everyone to dig ditches. But we wouldn't cheer for a great economy then.

I guess I don't so much care about the cuts themselves. I am just getting really sick of every bit of legislation being rubber stamped cause somehow it magically creates jobs.

The overly zealous and unnecessary regulations are exactly how it works to kill jobs. They seem to believe that the federal government is simply better than individuals at keeping their energy costs low, implementing energy standards and picking for them where to improve efficiency. People on the right have been documenting these things for ages. You don't need to go far to find specific areas that the EPA limits growth and adds costs unnecessarily for little or no gain.

Heck, improving the standard of living is hardly the goal here. Lately, you have to question whether the preservation of this or that environmental sector is done for the sake of the environment itself and not people. Health and safety be damned for people, we see this regulation doing this and that for the "environment." Not to mention myriad environmental activist groups sue the EPA (e.g. under CAA and CWA) to then settle the lawsuit for the regulations, taxpayers getting billed for the legal fees and regulation implementation fees, and then companies given unreasonable compliance time-frames. I'm all for vastly cutting their budget to limit the harm.

You dumb zionist liberal media propaganda puppet, this is obviously a lie. These laws take away from the necessary freedoms of job creators, thereby hindering their tireless efforts to create jobs.
#freemarket2016
P.S.
My daddy fought to get rid of you jewish commie sons of bitches in the second world war!

User was temp banned for this post.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
kmillz
Profile Joined August 2010
United States1548 Posts
July 23 2013 00:57 GMT
#6936
On July 23 2013 09:17 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2013 08:52 Danglars wrote:
On July 23 2013 06:18 Klondikebar wrote:
“In addition,” Rogers said, defending the enormous cuts to the EPA, “by holding back overly zealous and unnecessary environmental regulations, this bill can have a positive effect on our economy and will help encourage job growth.”

I love the underpants gnome theory at work here.

1. Slash budgets for departments that we don't like.
2. ?????
3. JOBS YALL!

And I'm also tired of the assumption that jobs are this end all be all of economics. They aren't. Improved standard of living is. If we just wanted everyone to be employed we could easily have full employment paying everyone to dig ditches. But we wouldn't cheer for a great economy then.

I guess I don't so much care about the cuts themselves. I am just getting really sick of every bit of legislation being rubber stamped cause somehow it magically creates jobs.

The overly zealous and unnecessary regulations are exactly how it works to kill jobs. They seem to believe that the federal government is simply better than individuals at keeping their energy costs low, implementing energy standards and picking for them where to improve efficiency. People on the right have been documenting these things for ages. You don't need to go far to find specific areas that the EPA limits growth and adds costs unnecessarily for little or no gain.

Heck, improving the standard of living is hardly the goal here. Lately, you have to question whether the preservation of this or that environmental sector is done for the sake of the environment itself and not people. Health and safety be damned for people, we see this regulation doing this and that for the "environment." Not to mention myriad environmental activist groups sue the EPA (e.g. under CAA and CWA) to then settle the lawsuit for the regulations, taxpayers getting billed for the legal fees and regulation implementation fees, and then companies given unreasonable compliance time-frames. I'm all for vastly cutting their budget to limit the harm.

I'll just leave this here...

Show nested quote +
New Study: The Economic Benefits of EPA Regulations Massively Outweigh The Costs

[A] new study from the White House’s Office of Management and Budget [...] found that the benefits EPA regulations bring to the economy far outweigh the costs.

The way this works is pretty straight-forward. Environmental regulations do impose compliance costs on businesses, and can raise prices, which hurt economic growth. But they also create jobs by requiring pollution clean-up and prevention efforts. And perhaps even more importantly, they save the economy billions by avoiding pollution’s deleterious health effects. Particles from smoke stacks, for example, are implicated in respiratory diseases, heart attacks, infections and a host of other ailments, all of which require billions in health care costs per year to treat. Preventing those particles from going into the air means healthier and more productive citizens, who can go spend that money on something other than making themselves well again. [...]

The OMB found that a decade’s worth of major federal rules had produced annual benefits to the U.S. economy of between $193 billion and $800 billion and impose aggregate costs of $57 billion to $84 billion. “These ranges are reported in 2001 dollars and reflect the uncertain benefits and costs of each rule,” the report noted.

Source


$193-800 billion added to the economy through creating pollution clean-up/prevention jobs and avoiding diseases through regulation? Is there a source for how they got these figures?
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
July 23 2013 01:01 GMT
#6937
investing in protecting the environment is a long run project but it probably is one of the wisest things a country like the U.S. should be doing. very shortsighted.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-07-23 01:24:34
July 23 2013 01:14 GMT
#6938
On July 23 2013 10:01 oneofthem wrote:
investing in protecting the environment is a long run project but it probably is one of the wisest things a country like the U.S. should be doing. very shortsighted.

When appropriate they should be wise in any country

Edit:
On July 23 2013 09:57 kmillz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2013 09:17 kwizach wrote:
On July 23 2013 08:52 Danglars wrote:
On July 23 2013 06:18 Klondikebar wrote:
“In addition,” Rogers said, defending the enormous cuts to the EPA, “by holding back overly zealous and unnecessary environmental regulations, this bill can have a positive effect on our economy and will help encourage job growth.”

I love the underpants gnome theory at work here.

1. Slash budgets for departments that we don't like.
2. ?????
3. JOBS YALL!

And I'm also tired of the assumption that jobs are this end all be all of economics. They aren't. Improved standard of living is. If we just wanted everyone to be employed we could easily have full employment paying everyone to dig ditches. But we wouldn't cheer for a great economy then.

I guess I don't so much care about the cuts themselves. I am just getting really sick of every bit of legislation being rubber stamped cause somehow it magically creates jobs.

The overly zealous and unnecessary regulations are exactly how it works to kill jobs. They seem to believe that the federal government is simply better than individuals at keeping their energy costs low, implementing energy standards and picking for them where to improve efficiency. People on the right have been documenting these things for ages. You don't need to go far to find specific areas that the EPA limits growth and adds costs unnecessarily for little or no gain.

Heck, improving the standard of living is hardly the goal here. Lately, you have to question whether the preservation of this or that environmental sector is done for the sake of the environment itself and not people. Health and safety be damned for people, we see this regulation doing this and that for the "environment." Not to mention myriad environmental activist groups sue the EPA (e.g. under CAA and CWA) to then settle the lawsuit for the regulations, taxpayers getting billed for the legal fees and regulation implementation fees, and then companies given unreasonable compliance time-frames. I'm all for vastly cutting their budget to limit the harm.

I'll just leave this here...

New Study: The Economic Benefits of EPA Regulations Massively Outweigh The Costs

[A] new study from the White House’s Office of Management and Budget [...] found that the benefits EPA regulations bring to the economy far outweigh the costs.

The way this works is pretty straight-forward. Environmental regulations do impose compliance costs on businesses, and can raise prices, which hurt economic growth. But they also create jobs by requiring pollution clean-up and prevention efforts. And perhaps even more importantly, they save the economy billions by avoiding pollution’s deleterious health effects. Particles from smoke stacks, for example, are implicated in respiratory diseases, heart attacks, infections and a host of other ailments, all of which require billions in health care costs per year to treat. Preventing those particles from going into the air means healthier and more productive citizens, who can go spend that money on something other than making themselves well again. [...]

The OMB found that a decade’s worth of major federal rules had produced annual benefits to the U.S. economy of between $193 billion and $800 billion and impose aggregate costs of $57 billion to $84 billion. “These ranges are reported in 2001 dollars and reflect the uncertain benefits and costs of each rule,” the report noted.

Source


$193-800 billion added to the economy through creating pollution clean-up/prevention jobs and avoiding diseases through regulation? Is there a source for how they got these figures?


Nominally they do a cost-benefit analysis before enacting the regulations, so I'd guess that it comes from that. I have no idea how accurate the analysis is though. I'm pretty skeptical of any cost benefit analysis that is as optimistic as the ones shown on the thinkprogress site.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
July 23 2013 01:19 GMT
#6939
On July 23 2013 10:14 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2013 10:01 oneofthem wrote:
investing in protecting the environment is a long run project but it probably is one of the wisest things a country like the U.S. should be doing. very shortsighted.

When appropriate they should be wise in any country

the u.s. isn't really in need of trading growth for environment, so i'd have to think only small groups benefit from destroying environmental regulation.

it's not like we are a sustenance farming bunch that need to burn down forests to live.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
July 23 2013 01:24 GMT
#6940
I love that they include the make-work jobs they create in there. Take money from some people, give jobs to government workers and contractors, net jobs! I'd like to see next their proposals to pay a group of workers to dig a ditch and another to fill it in, because that's creating jobs and should be added to net benefits. Of course they can label their pollution and prescribe how it is cleaned up and when it's cleaned up enough.

Save the country billions in health care costs through regulation? You can cut their budget in half and still gain the best health care benefits. It's the difference between light handed regulation and heavy handed regulation that I'm talking about. Strip down the unnecessary stuff on top of basic environmental regulations, cut the cozy relationship between environmental activists, their lawyers, and the EPA, and let individuals be more responsible for their own energy costs rather than imposing federal will on companies.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
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