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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
The Heritage Foundation is disavowing past recommendations regarding race, IQ, and immigration from Jason Richwine, the co-author of a recent study by the group claming undocumented immigrants would add $6.3 trillion to the deficit if granted legal status.
“This is not a work product of The Heritage Foundation. Its findings in no way reflect the positions of The Heritage Foundation," Mike Gonzales, vice president of communications at Heritage, said in a statement. "Nor do the findings affect the conclusions of our study on the cost of amnesty to the U.S. taxpayer.”
Richwine argued in a 2009 paper that immigrants should be barred based on low IQ, which he claimed would have the effect of keeping out many Hispanics in particular, who may have a "genetic" predilection towards lower intelligence.
“No one knows whether Hispanics will ever reach IQ parity with whites, but the prediction that new Hispanic immigrants will have low-IQ children and grandchildren is difficult to argue against," Richwine wrote.
He added that it may be advisable to couch these findings in less racially inflammatory terms for political purposes by referring to "skill-based" immigration.
Source
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On May 09 2013 03:21 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +The Heritage Foundation is disavowing past recommendations regarding race, IQ, and immigration from Jason Richwine, the co-author of a recent study by the group claming undocumented immigrants would add $6.3 trillion to the deficit if granted legal status.
“This is not a work product of The Heritage Foundation. Its findings in no way reflect the positions of The Heritage Foundation," Mike Gonzales, vice president of communications at Heritage, said in a statement. "Nor do the findings affect the conclusions of our study on the cost of amnesty to the U.S. taxpayer.”
Richwine argued in a 2009 paper that immigrants should be barred based on low IQ, which he claimed would have the effect of keeping out many Hispanics in particular, who may have a "genetic" predilection towards lower intelligence.
“No one knows whether Hispanics will ever reach IQ parity with whites, but the prediction that new Hispanic immigrants will have low-IQ children and grandchildren is difficult to argue against," Richwine wrote.
He added that it may be advisable to couch these findings in less racially inflammatory terms for political purposes by referring to "skill-based" immigration. Source I've always been of the opinion that we should have intelligence quotas PERIOD for non-adopted individuals coming to the country, regardless of their point of origin. Nothing too stringently high, 100 would be fine, but all the same. For families, if one of the working age members of the IMMEDIATE family meets the criteria, it would allow the entire family entry.
The United States real strength has always been in its ability to brain-drain the rest of the world.
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On May 08 2013 14:07 sunprince wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 23:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 07 2013 16:37 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 07 2013 14:44 sunprince wrote:On May 07 2013 05:55 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 07 2013 05:11 Paljas wrote: wtf 6% believe in Unicorns? Unless they also asked little kids, this is absolutly mind boggling. In my opinion, this is also partly due to the education system not being centralized by the state. I really think a uniform education system across a whole nation is superior to a regional system. I doubt 6% really believe in unicorns. Believing in unicorns isn't really that much stupider (if at all) than believing in Young Earth creationism. Considering that 46% of Americans believe in Young Earth creationism, I don't think 6% believing in unicorns is much of a stretch. Now now, people aren't stupid just because they don't share the same religion as you. They're stupid if they use fairy tales of dudes floating in clouds to conclude that the Universe and all life in it were created 10,000 years ago in 144 hours. The only difference between believing in unicorns and Young Earth creationism is an argumentum ad populum. Ahh, yes. Hate and intolerance. How novel. Citation needed. Criticism ≠ hate and intolerance. Proving that someone is wrong and stupid does not imply hatred of any sort. You aren't offering a dry criticism. You are going out of your way to criticize in a deliberately mean spirited manner.
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United States42656 Posts
There is no decent way of measuring intelligence, particularly when the purpose is to measure people from wildly different cultural and social backgrounds. Furthermore intelligence is massively overrated as a factor in success.
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Intelligence is one of the best metrics around when predicting success, assuming you have a sufficiently broad definition of success. Intelligence is even better at predicting economic mobility than socio-economic background. So while socio-economic background has a large effect on a persons entry level pay, where they advance from there is determined more by intelligence than SEB, for example.
There is a strong desire to discredit any notion of intelligence, or any studies related to it, because the implications of the idea are very uncomfortable for some. But the research and data are there to support the concept, imo.
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On May 09 2013 03:25 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 14:07 sunprince wrote:On May 07 2013 23:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 07 2013 16:37 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 07 2013 14:44 sunprince wrote:On May 07 2013 05:55 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 07 2013 05:11 Paljas wrote: wtf 6% believe in Unicorns? Unless they also asked little kids, this is absolutly mind boggling. In my opinion, this is also partly due to the education system not being centralized by the state. I really think a uniform education system across a whole nation is superior to a regional system. I doubt 6% really believe in unicorns. Believing in unicorns isn't really that much stupider (if at all) than believing in Young Earth creationism. Considering that 46% of Americans believe in Young Earth creationism, I don't think 6% believing in unicorns is much of a stretch. Now now, people aren't stupid just because they don't share the same religion as you. They're stupid if they use fairy tales of dudes floating in clouds to conclude that the Universe and all life in it were created 10,000 years ago in 144 hours. The only difference between believing in unicorns and Young Earth creationism is an argumentum ad populum. Ahh, yes. Hate and intolerance. How novel. Citation needed. Criticism ≠ hate and intolerance. Proving that someone is wrong and stupid does not imply hatred of any sort. You aren't offering a dry criticism. You are going out of your way to criticize in a deliberately mean spirited manner. The irony is amusing.
Moving on to content, we could approach this philosophically and claim that everything is subjective and nothing is truly verifiable and everything is a matter of faith. I don't know anyone who actually lives according to these standards, but I'm sure it's possible. Though I'm not quite sure how long they would live.
Or we could say that believing that the earth is 10,000 years old is stupid, the same way believing the government puts mind controlling agents into major water supplies is stupid. If I believed in a religion that claimed that black people could spread AIDS by staring at people, there would be ten levels of stupid involved as well...though I guess someone somewhere could philosophize a rationalization for my faith.
To put it another way, all religions should be treated equally under law. That doesn't mean that all religions have the god-given right to be equally credible or respectable.
On May 09 2013 03:46 AmorphousPhoenix wrote: Intelligence is one of the best metrics around when predicting success, assuming you have a sufficiently broad definition of success. Intelligence is even better at predicting economic mobility than socio-economic background. So while socio-economic background has a large effect on a persons entry level pay, where they advance from there is determined more by intelligence than SEB, for example.
There is a strong desire to discredit any notion of intelligence, or any studies related to it, because the implications of the idea are very uncomfortable for some. But the research and data are there to support the concept, imo. Intelligence isn't a metric, it's a quality. We use metrics to try to measure intelligence. There's a difference between the two. It's very possible to improve your IQ by studying for an IQ test or by being tutored, but this really isn't a matter of innate genius or creativity.
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Yesterday, in an interview with Bloomberg Television, House Speaker John Boehner warned that the U.S. government must balance its budget. After all, he said:
We have spent more than what we have brought into this government for 55 of the last 60 years. There’s no business in America that could survive like this. No household in America that could do this. And this government can’t do this.
It’s hard to think of better evidence for the sustainability of budget deficits than the fact that we have run them for 55 of the last 60 years. If our fiscal practices haven’t caught up to us after 60 years, when will they? Or does Boehner take a David Stockman-like position that the last several decades of American advancement have in fact been a ghastly failure?
Of course, budget deficits work because the government is different from a household. A government does not have a life cycle, does not ever expect to stop generating income to support itself, and, therefore, does not ever have to retire its debt. It must keep its debts at a manageable size relative to the economy, which the U.S. has done over that 60 year period. If the economy is growing over the long term, that means the government can run a deficit and grow the debt every year -- sustainably.
Boehner is right that no household could keep borrowing like that. He’s not quite right about a business though. Look at the accompanying chart. The orange bars show the net debts of Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. They have soared -- up 5,760 percent since 1987. By comparison, the roughly 600 percent rise in the U.S. public debt over the same period looks restrained. Is Wal-Mart mad? How long can it go on just borrowing and borrowing and borrowing?
The answer is “as long as Wal-Mart keeps growing.” The white line shows Wal-Mart’s ratio of debt to earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. And what that shows is that Wal-Mart’s debts have been rising to keep pace with its growing earnings. Similarly, for six decades U.S. government debt has been rising roughly in line with the growth of the economy. Over the last few years, it’s grown a lot faster because of cyclical economic weakness. The proper matter for debate is whether recent deficits are too large -- not whether six decades is too long to run them.
Boehner’s position on short-term debt is confused, too. If the recent expansion of the public debt is a matter of overriding economic concern, why is Boehner so resolutely opposed to tax increases to pay it down? America’s economy has thrived under a variety of tax policies, including much higher top marginal tax rates than are in effect today. Shouldn’t Boehner be willing to accept tax increases, or perhaps even be eager for them, in order to fight the debt menace he cites?
Boehner doesn’t really care about the public debt, as he made clear when he repeatedly supported debt-expanding measures under a Republican president. What Boehner and House Republicans really want are excuses to cut federal spending, particularly on programs such as Medicaid and food stamps that support low-income Americans. But those cuts are unpopular, so Republicans frame fiscal debate to make such cuts appear necessary to avoid disaster. If you can’t borrow or tax more, and can’t cut old-age entitlements or the military, which command the majority of federal spending, you’re not left with many options but to soak the poor.
Soaking the poor is a policy option. It is not, as Boehner would have it, a policy necessity dictated by the inability of the federal government to borrow or tax sustainably. But if the debate instead becomes about tax and spending priorities -- is it more important to provide universal health care or keep tax rates low on high earners -- it shifts to turf unfavorable to Republicans. So they pretend.
Boehner Accidentally Explains Why His Deficit Position Is Phony
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On May 09 2013 03:48 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 03:25 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 08 2013 14:07 sunprince wrote:On May 07 2013 23:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 07 2013 16:37 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 07 2013 14:44 sunprince wrote:On May 07 2013 05:55 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 07 2013 05:11 Paljas wrote: wtf 6% believe in Unicorns? Unless they also asked little kids, this is absolutly mind boggling. In my opinion, this is also partly due to the education system not being centralized by the state. I really think a uniform education system across a whole nation is superior to a regional system. I doubt 6% really believe in unicorns. Believing in unicorns isn't really that much stupider (if at all) than believing in Young Earth creationism. Considering that 46% of Americans believe in Young Earth creationism, I don't think 6% believing in unicorns is much of a stretch. Now now, people aren't stupid just because they don't share the same religion as you. They're stupid if they use fairy tales of dudes floating in clouds to conclude that the Universe and all life in it were created 10,000 years ago in 144 hours. The only difference between believing in unicorns and Young Earth creationism is an argumentum ad populum. Ahh, yes. Hate and intolerance. How novel. Citation needed. Criticism ≠ hate and intolerance. Proving that someone is wrong and stupid does not imply hatred of any sort. You aren't offering a dry criticism. You are going out of your way to criticize in a deliberately mean spirited manner. The irony is amusing. Moving on to content, we could approach this philosophically and claim that everything is subjective and nothing is truly verifiable and everything is a matter of faith. I don't know anyone who actually lives according to these standards, but I'm sure it's possible. Though I'm not quite sure how long they would live. Or we could say that believing that the earth is 10,000 years old is stupid, the same way believing the government puts mind controlling agents into major water supplies is stupid. If I believed in a religion that claimed that black people could spread AIDS by staring at people, there would be ten levels of stupid involved as well...though I guess someone somewhere could philosophize a rationalization for my faith. To put it another way, all religions should be treated equally under law. That doesn't mean that all religions have the god-given right to be equally credible or respectable. The context matters. If we're having a discussion about how old the earth really is, then yes, saying 10K years would be pretty stupid. But we're not, and so busting in with a "X religious belief is stupid" is pretty bad form in my book.
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On May 09 2013 03:46 AmorphousPhoenix wrote: Intelligence is one of the best metrics around when predicting success, assuming you have a sufficiently broad definition of success. Intelligence is even better at predicting economic mobility than socio-economic background. So while socio-economic background has a large effect on a persons entry level pay, where they advance from there is determined more by intelligence than SEB, for example.
There is a strong desire to discredit any notion of intelligence, or any studies related to it, because the implications of the idea are very uncomfortable for some. But the research and data are there to support the concept, imo.
Intelligence as a metric for predicting success is horrible lol. Perhaps you can look at successful people and survey them to discover a majority are in fact intelligent. But you're leaving out the incredibly vast number of intelligent people that aren't successful. This is because success is in large part due to luck, and while intelligence may help you harness that luck, it doesn't make luck more opportune by a relevant frequency.
I don't understand why it would be smart to keep people out of a country because they're not intelligent. Do we only need intelligent people to work every job? Furthermore, can't people increase their IQs by having access to education for themselves and their families? It just seems like discrimination.
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United States42656 Posts
Also if you want it to be a country of intelligent people then why just focus on immigration, it's not like only the smartest foetuses choose to attach themselves to American wombs. Being born in a country isn't an achievement, if you want to have a country of successful people then selective deportation would be far more effective than selective immigration.
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On May 09 2013 04:44 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +Yesterday, in an interview with Bloomberg Television, House Speaker John Boehner warned that the U.S. government must balance its budget. After all, he said:
We have spent more than what we have brought into this government for 55 of the last 60 years. There’s no business in America that could survive like this. No household in America that could do this. And this government can’t do this.
It’s hard to think of better evidence for the sustainability of budget deficits than the fact that we have run them for 55 of the last 60 years. If our fiscal practices haven’t caught up to us after 60 years, when will they? Or does Boehner take a David Stockman-like position that the last several decades of American advancement have in fact been a ghastly failure?
Of course, budget deficits work because the government is different from a household. A government does not have a life cycle, does not ever expect to stop generating income to support itself, and, therefore, does not ever have to retire its debt. It must keep its debts at a manageable size relative to the economy, which the U.S. has done over that 60 year period. If the economy is growing over the long term, that means the government can run a deficit and grow the debt every year -- sustainably.
Boehner is right that no household could keep borrowing like that. He’s not quite right about a business though. Look at the accompanying chart. The orange bars show the net debts of Wal-Mart Stores, Inc. They have soared -- up 5,760 percent since 1987. By comparison, the roughly 600 percent rise in the U.S. public debt over the same period looks restrained. Is Wal-Mart mad? How long can it go on just borrowing and borrowing and borrowing?
The answer is “as long as Wal-Mart keeps growing.” The white line shows Wal-Mart’s ratio of debt to earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization. And what that shows is that Wal-Mart’s debts have been rising to keep pace with its growing earnings. Similarly, for six decades U.S. government debt has been rising roughly in line with the growth of the economy. Over the last few years, it’s grown a lot faster because of cyclical economic weakness. The proper matter for debate is whether recent deficits are too large -- not whether six decades is too long to run them.
Boehner’s position on short-term debt is confused, too. If the recent expansion of the public debt is a matter of overriding economic concern, why is Boehner so resolutely opposed to tax increases to pay it down? America’s economy has thrived under a variety of tax policies, including much higher top marginal tax rates than are in effect today. Shouldn’t Boehner be willing to accept tax increases, or perhaps even be eager for them, in order to fight the debt menace he cites?
Boehner doesn’t really care about the public debt, as he made clear when he repeatedly supported debt-expanding measures under a Republican president. What Boehner and House Republicans really want are excuses to cut federal spending, particularly on programs such as Medicaid and food stamps that support low-income Americans. But those cuts are unpopular, so Republicans frame fiscal debate to make such cuts appear necessary to avoid disaster. If you can’t borrow or tax more, and can’t cut old-age entitlements or the military, which command the majority of federal spending, you’re not left with many options but to soak the poor.
Soaking the poor is a policy option. It is not, as Boehner would have it, a policy necessity dictated by the inability of the federal government to borrow or tax sustainably. But if the debate instead becomes about tax and spending priorities -- is it more important to provide universal health care or keep tax rates low on high earners -- it shifts to turf unfavorable to Republicans. So they pretend. Boehner Accidentally Explains Why His Deficit Position Is Phony Boehner's analogy is overly simplistic for sure, but the counter analogy is as well. Companies, Walmart included, do have life cycles. They start young and burn through capital (i.e. run deficits) as they grow. Once mature they return capital (run surpluses). Walmart's mature and has been returning capital for a number of years now.
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On May 09 2013 04:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote: The context matters. If we're having a discussion about how old the earth really is, then yes, saying 10K years would be pretty stupid. But we're not, and so busting in with a "X religious belief is stupid" is pretty bad form in my book. What if the religious beliefs have a claim on how old the earth really is? AFAIK, Young Earth Creationism isn't exactly big on metaphor concerning the "creation" part.
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On May 09 2013 05:32 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 04:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote: The context matters. If we're having a discussion about how old the earth really is, then yes, saying 10K years would be pretty stupid. But we're not, and so busting in with a "X religious belief is stupid" is pretty bad form in my book. What if the religious beliefs have a claim on how old the earth really is? AFAIK, Young Earth Creationism isn't exactly big on metaphor concerning the "creation" part. See above - it depends on the context. I have no problem with creationism being a decidedly false belief in the context of a science class.
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On May 09 2013 05:43 JonnyBNoHo wrote: See above - it depends on the context. I have no problem with creationism being a decidedly false belief in the context of a science class. Under what circumstances would you consider the claim that the earth is literally 10,000 years old to be valid?
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On May 09 2013 05:48 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 05:43 JonnyBNoHo wrote: See above - it depends on the context. I have no problem with creationism being a decidedly false belief in the context of a science class. Under what circumstances would you consider the claim that the earth is literally 10,000 years old to be valid? If it's their personal belief and it makes them happy so be it. Doesn't harm me.
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On May 09 2013 05:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 05:48 acker wrote:On May 09 2013 05:43 JonnyBNoHo wrote: See above - it depends on the context. I have no problem with creationism being a decidedly false belief in the context of a science class. Under what circumstances would you consider the claim that the earth is literally 10,000 years old to be valid? If it's their personal belief and it makes them happy so be it. Doesn't harm me. Under what context would you consider the claim that the earth is literally 10,000 years old to be valid?
...and just what on earth is your occupation?
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On May 09 2013 05:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 05:48 acker wrote:On May 09 2013 05:43 JonnyBNoHo wrote: See above - it depends on the context. I have no problem with creationism being a decidedly false belief in the context of a science class. Under what circumstances would you consider the claim that the earth is literally 10,000 years old to be valid? If it's their personal belief and it makes them happy so be it. Doesn't harm me.
It harms the collective capacity of the country to allow the perpetuation of falsehoods pertaining to science to go on. We're already a country slipping behind in academics and allowing "alternative science" to be viewed as another way of doing things is harmful.
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On May 09 2013 05:56 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 05:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 09 2013 05:48 acker wrote:On May 09 2013 05:43 JonnyBNoHo wrote: See above - it depends on the context. I have no problem with creationism being a decidedly false belief in the context of a science class. Under what circumstances would you consider the claim that the earth is literally 10,000 years old to be valid? If it's their personal belief and it makes them happy so be it. Doesn't harm me. It harms the collective capacity of the country to allow the perpetuation of falsehoods pertaining to science to go on. We're already a country slipping behind in academics and allowing "alternative science" to be viewed as another way of doing things is harmful. Don't be so fear mongering about it. We're never going to "catch up" to other countries because we educate proportionately more of out people then other countries do, that brings down our average and our scores.
the resources being constantly used to crusade against "alternative science" is whats harmful to our country. Being a christian doesn't disqualify you from studying science nor does believing in creationalism disqualify you from studying evolution.
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On May 09 2013 06:13 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 05:56 Mohdoo wrote:On May 09 2013 05:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 09 2013 05:48 acker wrote:On May 09 2013 05:43 JonnyBNoHo wrote: See above - it depends on the context. I have no problem with creationism being a decidedly false belief in the context of a science class. Under what circumstances would you consider the claim that the earth is literally 10,000 years old to be valid? If it's their personal belief and it makes them happy so be it. Doesn't harm me. It harms the collective capacity of the country to allow the perpetuation of falsehoods pertaining to science to go on. We're already a country slipping behind in academics and allowing "alternative science" to be viewed as another way of doing things is harmful. Don't be so fear mongering about it. We're never going to "catch up" to other countries because we educate proportionately more of out people then other countries do, that brings down our average and our scores. the resources being constantly used to crusade against "alternative science" is whats harmful to our country. Being a christian doesn't disqualify you from studying science nor does believing in creationalism disqualify you from studying evolution.
Uh, if you believe in creationism you're not gonna be very good at studying evolution. Don't get me wrong: you can be a crazy religious nut and still be a genius, like Newton was, but Young Earth creationists are obviously ipso facto not going to believe in evolution just like Lysenkoists won't. It's like saying that believing in the Miasma Theory of Disease doesn't disqualify you from studying epidemiology. You can only believe in untrue things and not have it affect a particular area of study as long as those things aren't germane to that area of study.
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On May 09 2013 06:13 Sermokala wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 05:56 Mohdoo wrote:On May 09 2013 05:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On May 09 2013 05:48 acker wrote:On May 09 2013 05:43 JonnyBNoHo wrote: See above - it depends on the context. I have no problem with creationism being a decidedly false belief in the context of a science class. Under what circumstances would you consider the claim that the earth is literally 10,000 years old to be valid? If it's their personal belief and it makes them happy so be it. Doesn't harm me. It harms the collective capacity of the country to allow the perpetuation of falsehoods pertaining to science to go on. We're already a country slipping behind in academics and allowing "alternative science" to be viewed as another way of doing things is harmful. Don't be so fear mongering about it. We're never going to "catch up" to other countries because we educate proportionately more of out people then other countries do, that brings down our average and our scores. the resources being constantly used to crusade against "alternative science" is whats harmful to our country. Being a christian doesn't disqualify you from studying science nor does believing in creationalism disqualify you from studying evolution. It doesnt disqualify you to study it, but it disqualifies you to have an objective view on that matter. And thus, you shouldnt be taken serious when talking about it.
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