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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On April 03 2015 05:35 JinDesu wrote: If I read it correctly, they are only left with the old ones. So they will not have any newer centrifuges. yea i just read it after posting that. seems comprehensive esp the actual dismantling of arak | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On April 03 2015 05:42 oneofthem wrote: uh it is with consideration of long term and internal political reform, which would make iran more friendly. but yeah on my view collective entities have no basis for rights outside of the individuals. Or it would just piss off Iran and at least a dozen other nations when the US starts thinking it can tell other countries how they should run themselves. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 03 2015 05:55 Mohdoo wrote: Happy to see Israel be unsatisfied. That likely means this is a reasonable compromise. Iran can't build a nuke. Looks good to me. That is my metric for if a deal is good in the Middle East: Israel is grumpy and whiny about it, but not threatening violence = Reasonable deal | ||
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SnK-Arcbound
United States4423 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On April 03 2015 06:12 SnK-Arcbound wrote: Iran has everything it needs to build a nuke. Obama's a fool, and will be remembered as Chamberlain. When Saudi Arabia burns, you can thank Obama. Iran has been hiding facilities and centrifuges for the past 6 years, yet people think a piece of paper will do anything. They're taking the same line Hitler did, sign the paper, do whatever the fuck you want anyways because papers don't do anything. [Citation Needed] | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On April 03 2015 06:21 oneofthem wrote: it is true that iran has in the past hidden stuff, and may do so in the future. but theyve also not that much to gain from possessing a nuke (a big cost in fact) You can replace Iran with "every sovereign nation" and that statement would still be 100% accurate. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
efficiency of centrifuges depend on quality of precision manufacture process and iran's isnt that good. they may compensate with large quantity but a larger facility is also easier to be found. centrifuges work in cascades so less efficient ones mean more of them is needed to have the same effect | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On April 03 2015 05:26 dAPhREAk wrote: i assume if the republicans oppose it that they will not agree that it contains everything they want. Right, because they want to have an American occupation and a Geiger Counter on every square meter of Iranian territory. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On April 03 2015 06:30 ticklishmusic wrote: Right, because they want to have an American occupation and a Geiger Counter on every square meter of Iranian territory. reminds me of Cal-OSHA. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19574 Posts
On April 03 2015 05:37 wei2coolman wrote: where have you been in the last 7 years? *15 | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On April 03 2015 04:45 Plansix wrote: Yes, in 15 years or so, hopefully we will have better relations and they won't be on the path to developing a nuclear weapon. Or we can work out another deal. On April 03 2015 04:50 Lord Tolkien wrote: This certainly sounds like the wishful thinking that got Obama elected. Hope and Change -- Iran edition! Maybe they only need time!It's more or less assumed that in 10-15 years, the younger generation with no memory of the Shah or the Iraq-Iran War will have come of political age, and Iran will be less anti-Western. On April 03 2015 06:12 SnK-Arcbound wrote: Spot on.Iran has everything it needs to build a nuke. Obama's a fool, and will be remembered as Chamberlain. When Saudi Arabia burns, you can thank Obama. Iran has been hiding facilities and centrifuges for the past 6 years, yet people think a piece of paper will do anything. They're taking the same line Hitler did, sign the paper, do whatever the fuck you want anyways because papers don't do anything. "Yesterday an Iranian general brazenly declared and I quote: 'Israel's destruction is non-negotiable.' But evidently giving Iran's murderous regime a clear path to the bomb is negotiable," he said. "This is unconscionable." NBCIran's News Analysis Kasebeamin earlier quoted Commander Mohammad Reza Naghdi, the head of the Basij paramilitary forces, as saying: "The destruction of Israel is non-negotiable and the freedom of Palestine is one of our highest priorities." Naghdi does not hold a position in the government. The Basij is a powerful volunteer militia under the Revolutionary Guards and loyal to Iran's most powerful man, Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei. It is called on to suppress internal dissent and to fight when the country is at war. ... oh and all these great compromises on the fact sheet apparently come as a surprise to Iranian Foreign Minister Mohammad Javad Zarif | ||
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Wegandi
United States2455 Posts
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Lord Tolkien
United States12083 Posts
On April 03 2015 07:44 Danglars wrote: This certainly sounds like the wishful thinking that got Obama elected. Hope and Change -- Iran edition! Maybe they only need time! You haven't been paying attention to the prevailing trends in Iranian domestic politics since, well, 2009 at the latest, have you? The demographics don't lie (similar to issues like gay marriage in US domestic politics): Iran's youngest generations are significantly more favorable to Western relations than the generations that have lived through the Shah and the Iran-Iraq war. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On April 03 2015 09:22 Lord Tolkien wrote: You haven't been paying attention to the prevailing trends in Iranian domestic politics since, well, 2009 at the latest, have you? The demographics don't lie (similar to issues like gay marriage in US domestic politics): Iran's youngest generations are significantly more favorable to Western relations than the generations that have lived through the Shah and the Iran-Iraq war. Was actually just listening to NPR report on this, though there wasn't any citations given, one of the guys they had on was talking about how a lot of the citizens of Iran are surprisingly pro-America, the problem has to do with entrenched governmental power and their constant message of "fuck America". | ||
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Lord Tolkien
United States12083 Posts
On April 03 2015 09:33 wei2coolman wrote: Was actually just listening to NPR report on this, though there wasn't any citations given, one of the guys they had on was talking about how a lot of the citizens of Iran are surprisingly pro-America, the problem has to do with entrenched governmental power and their constant message of "fuck America". Well, it consists of primarily the older generation, who are currently entrenched in power. They lived through the Shah, the 1979 Revolution and the desperation of the Iran-Iraq war. Of course they're going to be ridiculously pissed at the "West" for those things (and our support of Iraq against Iran), and the memory of the 1953 Revolution gives the political elite reason to be paranoid of another US-backed regime change: this was exacerbated when we ended up in military occupation of both Afghanistan and Iraq, on both sides of the Iranian border. 2009 was the most evident instance of it, but, grassroots support for a more liberal, pro-west stance has been building, but it remains in conflict with the structures of Iranian pseudo-democracy, and the inflated position of the Islamist jurists within Iran's government (a legacy of the 1979 Revolution, which itself comes from the Shah's suppression of dissent, from communists, Islamists, liberals, and democrats, with the Islamist element ultimately winning in the domestic political struggle post-Revolution). EDIT: Re: the Minister's tweets, it's mostly noting that the specific details of the points are still in discussion (eg, are the end of sanctions gradual or not; this may not have been completely decided by the time the agreement was made). At the end of the day, however, these are minor disputes at best in foreign diplomacy: these can be resolved quite amicably, as the major hurdles and compromises have already been hammered out. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
the cost of total crackdown is too great and censorship, while pervasive, is not going to sway the young all that much. it's a parallel story to the political trajectory of other totalitarian-ish states. | ||
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