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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1735

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8567 Posts
March 15 2015 17:52 GMT
#34681
rofl. I see it so clearly before my eyes :D

wp souma.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
March 15 2015 18:05 GMT
#34682
Washington (CNN)Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell on Sunday said he plans to hold up attorney general nominee Loretta Lynch's confirmation until the Senate passes a now-controversial human trafficking bill.

"This will have an impact on the timing of considering a new attorney general," McConnell told CNN's Dana Bash on "State of the Union." "I had hoped to turn to her next week, but if we can't finish the trafficking bill, she will be put off again."

Democrats are now holding up the trafficking bill, which glided through the judiciary committee, after they noticed an abortion provision embedded in the bill that would prevent victims of human trafficking from using restitution funds to pay for an abortion.

"We have to finish the human trafficking bill," McConnell said. "The Loretta Lynch nomination comes next."

A vote on Lynch's nomination was slated to take place this coming week, more than two weeks after the Senate Judiciary Committee approved Lynch's nomination.

Democrats have pointed out that Lynch's nomination has been held up in the Senate longer than any U.S. attorney general nominee in three decades.

President Barack Obama nominated Lynch to lead the Justice Department in November, but Lynch's committee hearing didn't come until after Republicans took control of the Senate.

The No. 3 Senate Democrat Sen. Chuck Schumer responded to McConnell's threat on Sunday, calling on Republicans to "stop dragging their feet" on Lynch's nomination.

"For months and months, Republicans have failed to move forward with‎ her nomination using any excuse they can, except for any credible objection to her nomination itself," Schumer said in a statement. "Loretta Lynch, and the American people, don't deserve this. At a time when terrorists from ISIS to Al-Shabaab threaten the United States, the nominee to be attorney general deserves an up or down vote."

And a spokesman for Minority Leader Harry Reid slammed McConnell for holding up Lynch's nomination.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
March 15 2015 18:27 GMT
#34683
I'd like to figure out some good system that ensures all nominees get an up or down vote in a timely manner.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Ryuhou)aS(
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States1174 Posts
March 15 2015 19:18 GMT
#34684
Isn't the Attorney General a domestic policy position and not foreign policy position? I find it funny that the republicans are delaying for something that really has nothing to do with Lynch's confirmation and the democrat respond saying "terrorists from ISIS to Al-Shabaab threatening the U.S." which also has really nothing to do with Lynch or her possible future position.

So basically, both sides are spouting nonsense here.
BW. There will always be a special place in my heart for the game I spent 10 years to be mediocre at.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-15 19:37:19
March 15 2015 19:32 GMT
#34685
Yeah, attorney general is domestic policy. Only interaction with the nasty groups would be the occasional prosecutions of such individuals that end up in US custody (and are prosecuted). At least as far as I know; there might also be a few things they do about going after the finances of said bad groups.

edit add: I'm not sure which of the cabinet level positions oversees domestic anti-terror operations; that might be relevant.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
March 15 2015 19:42 GMT
#34686
Oh, I looked it up and found the relevance: attorney general is in charge of department of justice, which is where the FBI is. And it's FBI that handles domestic anti-terrorism (i.e. anyone planning to attack on American soil, which some of those groups have threatened to do; though they would of course coordinate with some other agencies to get intel from foreign lands). So AG's office would be overseeing FBI's terrorism defense efforts.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23293 Posts
March 15 2015 21:34 GMT
#34687
On March 16 2015 02:05 Souma wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 15 2015 16:20 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 15 2015 16:17 Introvert wrote:
On March 15 2015 15:34 Shiragaku wrote:
What would a US Politics Megathread superhero comic look like? We know that sam is one of our deceased heroes/villains for sure with Igne and Jonny being eternal enemies.


How do you decide which side is heroic and which is villainous?

I'd love to see someone go into this though, it'd be pretty funny.



There has to be a writer lurking the thread that could do a fanfic style story that would be pretty entertaining, especially if it was written for people who look but rarely/never post.

Also damn that nominations thread had some gold. Bachmann... lol...

I'd do it but I'm lazy ;; I could see it being pretty funny though.

+ Show Spoiler +
Jonny glanced over his shoulder at GreenHorizon as the latter fell to his knees, begging the soft conservative to reconsider. "Please, Jonny... please understand."

Jonny reverted his gaze to the ground before him as GreenHorizon's cries for reevaluation struck his heart, and the sight of the tender liberal was currently too much to bear. But after a harrowing lull evoked a wealth of guilt within the young man, Jonny found himself kneeling before his pleading friend with his hand placed gently on his shoulder, his eyes amiable and his lips smiling. "So you admit you were wrong?"


lol wp.

The funny thing about republican support of gay marriage rights is, I wouldn't be surprised if there were more than 7 (closeted) gay republican members.

I also don't exactly know who some of them are representing. If ~40% of republicans are ok with gay marriage and more than 50% of likely republican primary/caucus voters in key early states say oppposing gay marriage is a mostly/totally unacceptable position for the republican nominee to have, how could only 7 representatives support it?

[image loading]

Source

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Source

If they were "representing their constituents" shouldn't it be a bit closer to 50% of them supporting gay marriage rights (even if they are against it themselves)?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15712 Posts
March 15 2015 21:40 GMT
#34688
My favorite thing about the gay marriage issue is how quickly it's coming about. Lots of people assumed they could be bigots without being shamed any time soon once it's legal across the country. Turns out nope, happening pretty soon and everyone will be remembered for being against it.
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
March 15 2015 21:54 GMT
#34689
On March 16 2015 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2015 02:05 Souma wrote:
On March 15 2015 16:20 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 15 2015 16:17 Introvert wrote:
On March 15 2015 15:34 Shiragaku wrote:
What would a US Politics Megathread superhero comic look like? We know that sam is one of our deceased heroes/villains for sure with Igne and Jonny being eternal enemies.


How do you decide which side is heroic and which is villainous?

I'd love to see someone go into this though, it'd be pretty funny.



There has to be a writer lurking the thread that could do a fanfic style story that would be pretty entertaining, especially if it was written for people who look but rarely/never post.

Also damn that nominations thread had some gold. Bachmann... lol...

I'd do it but I'm lazy ;; I could see it being pretty funny though.

+ Show Spoiler +
Jonny glanced over his shoulder at GreenHorizon as the latter fell to his knees, begging the soft conservative to reconsider. "Please, Jonny... please understand."

Jonny reverted his gaze to the ground before him as GreenHorizon's cries for reevaluation struck his heart, and the sight of the tender liberal was currently too much to bear. But after a harrowing lull evoked a wealth of guilt within the young man, Jonny found himself kneeling before his pleading friend with his hand placed gently on his shoulder, his eyes amiable and his lips smiling. "So you admit you were wrong?"


lol wp.

The funny thing about republican support of gay marriage rights is, I wouldn't be surprised if there were more than 7 (closeted) gay republican members.

I also don't exactly know who some of them are representing. If ~40% of republicans are ok with gay marriage and more than 50% of likely republican primary/caucus voters in key early states say oppposing gay marriage is a mostly/totally unacceptable position for the republican nominee to have, how could only 7 representatives support it?

[image loading]

Source

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Source

If they were "representing their constituents" shouldn't it be a bit closer to 50% of them supporting gay marriage rights (even if they are against it themselves)?

The anti's are the loudest constituents though, so they get more representation.
Who called in the fleet?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23293 Posts
March 15 2015 21:56 GMT
#34690
On March 16 2015 06:54 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2015 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 16 2015 02:05 Souma wrote:
On March 15 2015 16:20 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 15 2015 16:17 Introvert wrote:
On March 15 2015 15:34 Shiragaku wrote:
What would a US Politics Megathread superhero comic look like? We know that sam is one of our deceased heroes/villains for sure with Igne and Jonny being eternal enemies.


How do you decide which side is heroic and which is villainous?

I'd love to see someone go into this though, it'd be pretty funny.



There has to be a writer lurking the thread that could do a fanfic style story that would be pretty entertaining, especially if it was written for people who look but rarely/never post.

Also damn that nominations thread had some gold. Bachmann... lol...

I'd do it but I'm lazy ;; I could see it being pretty funny though.

+ Show Spoiler +
Jonny glanced over his shoulder at GreenHorizon as the latter fell to his knees, begging the soft conservative to reconsider. "Please, Jonny... please understand."

Jonny reverted his gaze to the ground before him as GreenHorizon's cries for reevaluation struck his heart, and the sight of the tender liberal was currently too much to bear. But after a harrowing lull evoked a wealth of guilt within the young man, Jonny found himself kneeling before his pleading friend with his hand placed gently on his shoulder, his eyes amiable and his lips smiling. "So you admit you were wrong?"


lol wp.

The funny thing about republican support of gay marriage rights is, I wouldn't be surprised if there were more than 7 (closeted) gay republican members.

I also don't exactly know who some of them are representing. If ~40% of republicans are ok with gay marriage and more than 50% of likely republican primary/caucus voters in key early states say oppposing gay marriage is a mostly/totally unacceptable position for the republican nominee to have, how could only 7 representatives support it?

[image loading]

Source

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Source

If they were "representing their constituents" shouldn't it be a bit closer to 50% of them supporting gay marriage rights (even if they are against it themselves)?

The anti's are the loudest constituents though, so they get more representation.


Loud sure, but 7 out of over 200, they aren't THAT loud right?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
NovaTheFeared
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States7224 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-03-15 22:07:40
March 15 2015 22:07 GMT
#34691
On March 16 2015 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2015 02:05 Souma wrote:
On March 15 2015 16:20 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 15 2015 16:17 Introvert wrote:
On March 15 2015 15:34 Shiragaku wrote:
What would a US Politics Megathread superhero comic look like? We know that sam is one of our deceased heroes/villains for sure with Igne and Jonny being eternal enemies.


How do you decide which side is heroic and which is villainous?

I'd love to see someone go into this though, it'd be pretty funny.



There has to be a writer lurking the thread that could do a fanfic style story that would be pretty entertaining, especially if it was written for people who look but rarely/never post.

Also damn that nominations thread had some gold. Bachmann... lol...

I'd do it but I'm lazy ;; I could see it being pretty funny though.

+ Show Spoiler +
Jonny glanced over his shoulder at GreenHorizon as the latter fell to his knees, begging the soft conservative to reconsider. "Please, Jonny... please understand."

Jonny reverted his gaze to the ground before him as GreenHorizon's cries for reevaluation struck his heart, and the sight of the tender liberal was currently too much to bear. But after a harrowing lull evoked a wealth of guilt within the young man, Jonny found himself kneeling before his pleading friend with his hand placed gently on his shoulder, his eyes amiable and his lips smiling. "So you admit you were wrong?"

+ Show Spoiler +

lol wp.

The funny thing about republican support of gay marriage rights is, I wouldn't be surprised if there were more than 7 (closeted) gay republican members.

I also don't exactly know who some of them are representing. If ~40% of republicans are ok with gay marriage and more than 50% of likely republican primary/caucus voters in key early states say oppposing gay marriage is a mostly/totally unacceptable position for the republican nominee to have, how could only 7 representatives support it?

[image loading]

Source

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Source

If they were "representing their constituents" shouldn't it be a bit closer to 50% of them supporting gay marriage rights (even if they are against it themselves)?


The constituents probably value the issue differently. The social conservatives care more about it and decide their votes on this issue, where maybe the supporters of gay marriage within the Republican party do want legalization but don't rank it as highly in their priorities. If that's the case the politicians are representing their base accurately, since it's not just raw numbers, it's more like raw numbers times intensity level.
日本語が分かりますか
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
March 15 2015 22:08 GMT
#34692
They might be that loud; the thing is, people who are moderately in favor of something still mostly vote on other things, but people that are very strongly against can and will vote entirely on that.
Single issue voters (or people willing to against you if you vote the wrong way on a specific issue) can thus wield a lot of influence in tight races (which there will be in primaries at least).
I thus wouldn't be surprised at it.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
NovaTheFeared
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
United States7224 Posts
March 15 2015 22:13 GMT
#34693
When the views are split fairly closely like this, but the plurality is lacking intensity it's clear that the collective preference of the group is anti-gay marriage. So almost all the politicians will reflect that view. It's not like you get a proportional representation of views in election systems with winner take all. If an issue is say 40/60 (after taking into account intensity) you're not going to get 40% pro 60% anti. You'll get 90% anti politicians.
日本語が分かりますか
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
March 15 2015 22:14 GMT
#34694
(CNN)A 20-year-old man from the St. Louis area has been arrested in connection with the shooting of two police officers during last week's protests in Ferguson, Missouri, a prosecutor said Sunday.

Jeffrey Williams was arrested late Saturday, and he has been charged with two counts of first-degree assault, a count of firing a weapon from a vehicle and three counts of armed criminal activity, St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Bob McCulloch said at a news conference in Clayton.

"The demonstrations were pretty much over (when the officers were shot). People were leaving, and that's when this happened," he said, describing Williams as a demonstrator who had taken part in protests on numerous occasions.

At the time of his arrest, Williams was on probation for receiving stolen property, and McCulloch said he believed Williams had an outstanding warrant after not reporting to his probation officer for several months.


http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/15/us/ferguson-police-shot-arrest/index.html
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23293 Posts
March 15 2015 22:15 GMT
#34695
On March 16 2015 07:07 NovaTheFeared wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2015 06:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 16 2015 02:05 Souma wrote:
On March 15 2015 16:20 GreenHorizons wrote:
On March 15 2015 16:17 Introvert wrote:
On March 15 2015 15:34 Shiragaku wrote:
What would a US Politics Megathread superhero comic look like? We know that sam is one of our deceased heroes/villains for sure with Igne and Jonny being eternal enemies.


How do you decide which side is heroic and which is villainous?

I'd love to see someone go into this though, it'd be pretty funny.



There has to be a writer lurking the thread that could do a fanfic style story that would be pretty entertaining, especially if it was written for people who look but rarely/never post.

Also damn that nominations thread had some gold. Bachmann... lol...

I'd do it but I'm lazy ;; I could see it being pretty funny though.

+ Show Spoiler +
Jonny glanced over his shoulder at GreenHorizon as the latter fell to his knees, begging the soft conservative to reconsider. "Please, Jonny... please understand."

Jonny reverted his gaze to the ground before him as GreenHorizon's cries for reevaluation struck his heart, and the sight of the tender liberal was currently too much to bear. But after a harrowing lull evoked a wealth of guilt within the young man, Jonny found himself kneeling before his pleading friend with his hand placed gently on his shoulder, his eyes amiable and his lips smiling. "So you admit you were wrong?"

+ Show Spoiler +

lol wp.

The funny thing about republican support of gay marriage rights is, I wouldn't be surprised if there were more than 7 (closeted) gay republican members.

I also don't exactly know who some of them are representing. If ~40% of republicans are ok with gay marriage and more than 50% of likely republican primary/caucus voters in key early states say oppposing gay marriage is a mostly/totally unacceptable position for the republican nominee to have, how could only 7 representatives support it?

[image loading]

Source

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


Source

If they were "representing their constituents" shouldn't it be a bit closer to 50% of them supporting gay marriage rights (even if they are against it themselves)?


The constituents probably value the issue differently. The social conservatives care more about it and decide their votes on this issue, where maybe the supporters of gay marriage within the Republican party do want legalization but don't rank it as highly in their priorities. If that's the case the politicians are representing their base accurately, since it's not just raw numbers, it's more like raw numbers times intensity level.


I see what you are saying, but I think the acceptable/unacceptable polls indicate that might not actually be the case. I didn't check the breakdown but "totally unacceptable" sounds like it's not a small deal to them.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23293 Posts
March 15 2015 22:29 GMT
#34696
On March 16 2015 07:14 hunts wrote:
Show nested quote +
(CNN)A 20-year-old man from the St. Louis area has been arrested in connection with the shooting of two police officers during last week's protests in Ferguson, Missouri, a prosecutor said Sunday.

Jeffrey Williams was arrested late Saturday, and he has been charged with two counts of first-degree assault, a count of firing a weapon from a vehicle and three counts of armed criminal activity, St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Bob McCulloch said at a news conference in Clayton.

"The demonstrations were pretty much over (when the officers were shot). People were leaving, and that's when this happened," he said, describing Williams as a demonstrator who had taken part in protests on numerous occasions.

At the time of his arrest, Williams was on probation for receiving stolen property, and McCulloch said he believed Williams had an outstanding warrant after not reporting to his probation officer for several months.


http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/15/us/ferguson-police-shot-arrest/index.html


I'm glad the community did the right thing despite not getting the justice they deserve.

The prosecutor repeatedly thanked the public for the information that led to the arrest. He also said that, because of the public's assistance in the case, police were able to serve a search warrant on Williams' residence where they seized a .40-caliber handgun, "which has been tied to the shell casings that were recovered" at the scene of the shooting.


Some important bits left out by hunts selection.

Investigators are not sure they "buy" Williams' claim that he opened fire after a dispute with other individuals, McCulloch said, but he didn't rule it out.

"It's possible he was firing at someone else," he said, urging any other witnesses with information to come forward.

Bishop Derrick Robinson, an area organizer, challenged the idea that Williams was a well-known protester.

"I asked him (Williams) why would he say that he was a protester because it makes us look bad -- because so many things that we've done to rebuild our community. It sets us like five steps back to say that it was a protester who did it, but he admitted to me that he'd never protested," said Robinson, who spoke to Williams on Sunday.

Robinson added: "We won't allow this to distract us from our mission, and from purpose, because we will continue to fight."
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
March 15 2015 22:46 GMT
#34697
On March 16 2015 07:29 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 16 2015 07:14 hunts wrote:
(CNN)A 20-year-old man from the St. Louis area has been arrested in connection with the shooting of two police officers during last week's protests in Ferguson, Missouri, a prosecutor said Sunday.

Jeffrey Williams was arrested late Saturday, and he has been charged with two counts of first-degree assault, a count of firing a weapon from a vehicle and three counts of armed criminal activity, St. Louis County Prosecuting Attorney Bob McCulloch said at a news conference in Clayton.

"The demonstrations were pretty much over (when the officers were shot). People were leaving, and that's when this happened," he said, describing Williams as a demonstrator who had taken part in protests on numerous occasions.

At the time of his arrest, Williams was on probation for receiving stolen property, and McCulloch said he believed Williams had an outstanding warrant after not reporting to his probation officer for several months.


http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/15/us/ferguson-police-shot-arrest/index.html


I'm glad the community did the right thing despite not getting the justice they deserve.

Show nested quote +
The prosecutor repeatedly thanked the public for the information that led to the arrest. He also said that, because of the public's assistance in the case, police were able to serve a search warrant on Williams' residence where they seized a .40-caliber handgun, "which has been tied to the shell casings that were recovered" at the scene of the shooting.


Some important bits left out by hunts selection.

Show nested quote +
Investigators are not sure they "buy" Williams' claim that he opened fire after a dispute with other individuals, McCulloch said, but he didn't rule it out.

"It's possible he was firing at someone else," he said, urging any other witnesses with information to come forward.

Bishop Derrick Robinson, an area organizer, challenged the idea that Williams was a well-known protester.

"I asked him (Williams) why would he say that he was a protester because it makes us look bad -- because so many things that we've done to rebuild our community. It sets us like five steps back to say that it was a protester who did it, but he admitted to me that he'd never protested," said Robinson, who spoke to Williams on Sunday.

Robinson added: "We won't allow this to distract us from our mission, and from purpose, because we will continue to fight."

It's possible that Williams was in an altercation with someone else and accidentally hit the police. ~125 yards is a pretty long shot with a hand gun; not really something someone could expect to do on purpose without either a lot of training or a lot of attempts.
Who called in the fleet?
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
March 16 2015 02:05 GMT
#34698
Having shot at 20 yards before, and tried to shoot at 40 yards, and being a complete amateur - my chances of hitting anything at 125 yards that I'm aiming for is about the same as winning the lottery.
Yargh
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42957 Posts
March 16 2015 02:13 GMT
#34699
On March 16 2015 06:40 Mohdoo wrote:
My favorite thing about the gay marriage issue is how quickly it's coming about. Lots of people assumed they could be bigots without being shamed any time soon once it's legal across the country. Turns out nope, happening pretty soon and everyone will be remembered for being against it.

This is actually nonsense.
[image loading]
"People often say that same-sex marriage now is like interracial marriage in the 60s. But in terms of public opinion, same-sex marriage now is like interracial marriage in the 90s, when it had already been legal nationwide for 30 years."

Should have happened long ago.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28683 Posts
March 16 2015 04:05 GMT
#34700
it started really late for sure, but look at the trend of the solid blue line? it's certainly moving upward faster than the interracial one.. if the past 10 years repeat themselves it's fully legal in 2025 - if the past 4 years repeat themselves it's fully legal in 2019. Obviously it should have been legal since forever, but mohdoo's statement about it coming about quickly is totally supported by the graph you posted - just that it also started coming about quickly way too late.
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