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LOL only on US server
You have no idea how hard and often TvTs are once you hit mid-top dia on KR. Everyone terran there basically fucked each others chances from advancing, and the zergs and protosses from the same tier are a fucking joke for most of us ~_~. Since the new UI update I still accidentally click on random instead of terran but still manage to do well against other races.
and it also sometimes opens my eyes as to what terrans are doing to the zerg/protosses here O_O (zvt no expand wtf is he doing suddenly marauders hellion banshees marines every fucking scv wtf wtf)
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On September 21 2012 21:27 shadymmj wrote: the argument i keep hearing is that balance seems ok at code S level, but unfortunately 99.999% of blizzard's sc2 customers are not playing there.
then the same old argument made for "noob level" diamonds and masters, perfect your macro + multitasking and you will start winning. but why do that as terran, when you can do that as zerg and win MORE? Sentimental values?
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On September 21 2012 21:12 Twisting wrote: When i started playing in the 2nd season after the release, i made the choice to go with Zerg. I only faced Terrans and lost many many many games, and i got frustrated with it. But i realy like playing as the underdog. It gave me motivation to keep on trying.
Every time i played, i faced Terrans and lost badly. Now its shifting and more people play Zerg, things change. On my 2nd account i play Terran and i am climbing ladders rather quickly
Terran isnt bad for getting out of lower leagues because they have such strong 1 base play. No one else can match the utillity of our mineral only units. It doesnt take much to stop these attacks though, its mostly just preying on ignorance.
Possibly the reason it is shifting to zerg/protoss is bc over the past years there have been numerous buffs to both races while terran gets nothing but nerfs?
The reason those korean T are so revered is because anyone who has made an attempt at playing T can recognize just how incredible it is to do what they do. Maybe harder to play is the wrong phrase; they are very unforgiving though, that is for sure.
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TvP , one engagement lost = death, only people with strong will stay , so it's really no wonder people go away from terran!
/e
to just put in more oil into the fire:
2 years ago when sc2 started, zerg WAS harder to play. Zerg players just had the watchtowers ALWAYS they would fight for them and would not just sit back all the time, also have lings in other paths not covered. Nowadays i see zergs in masters league not giving a shit about watchtowers.
zerg got weaker skillwise over all, but the race and balance is keeping them up!
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On September 21 2012 21:36 ntssauce wrote: TvP , one engagement lost = death, only people with strong will stay , so it's really no wonder people go away from terran!
You mean more like good micro. We love glass cannon style LOL
Most terrans = dual hxbow DH pre 1.02 with pure mobility and no defenses.
Seriously starcraft itself is pretty stressing to play and only people who want more stress from their source of entertainment stay....or those who have accepted sc as a form of sport/activity rather than entertainment (IE football players/fans, basketball etc etc)
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On September 21 2012 19:17 shadymmj wrote: its not a troll thread, this is a legitimate balance thread because STATISTICS DON'T LIE
when you have 2.5x more zergs than terran in GM, in a server that caters to the United States (and no, im not american), you undeniably have got a problem.
most of the hardcore fan base this game has got left are the masters and maybe diamonds, sectors in which terran is vastly underperforming, they are the ones who keep the game active.
thank god I quit for counterstike and wow a long time ago, games which you can enjoy when you have a job and college papers to go through, instead of having to read up on the new terran nerf after i get home.
Statistics "don't lie" - but there's no shortage of people who fail to interpret stats properly.
First, people ought to know the difference between descriptive stats (i.e., your basic "X% of people had outcome A") and inferential stats (i.e., which actually allow you to generalise from your sample statitistics to your population parameters, thereby allowing you to make statements re: race balance beyond the sample). This much is basic stats.
Second, just because there are 2.5x more Zs than Ts in GM, it doesn't mean anything about race balance if we don't know what the base rates are to begin with. For example, if there are just 2.5x more zerg players than terran players to start out with, than this would be perfectly proportional.
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On September 21 2012 21:36 ntssauce wrote: TvP , one engagement lost = death, only people with strong will stay , so it's really no wonder people go away from terran! This is the reason I still play T. Even though no one else would know (or even care) that I switched races, to me it would feel like quitting, so I perservere.
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i dont like to complain but . tell me a zerg pro player that is not good ? every zerg is good and i dont think is cuz every zerg player is far superior to others i think is just easier then other races @ pro level . imho probably thats the reason there are so many zergs GM
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On September 21 2012 21:36 ntssauce wrote: TvP , one engagement lost = death, only people with strong will stay , so it's really no wonder people go away from terran!
I'm pretty sure I used to hear a lot of "PvT , one engagement lost = death. Lose one army and you'll never be able to recover."
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I would compare tvz with zvp - once you start getting it its not that difficult. My main race is zerg but I offrace with terrans a bit. And in TvZ I just know how opponent is thinking - you move 5 marines to the enemy xelnaga tower and go back. You do multipronged attacks and toy with zerg army positioning. Draging them from one side to another. In many cases T underestimate how much people fear them in early game.
Maybe people loved Terran more year ago because you didn't need to have long games and could win much earlier. Getting heavy macro made the race a bit boring and less cheesy. Maybe took a bit of fun out of game? Zergs life is boring as well - not many openings, trying to survive. Terrans are overtaking that boringness
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On September 21 2012 21:40 Covariance wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 19:17 shadymmj wrote: its not a troll thread, this is a legitimate balance thread because STATISTICS DON'T LIE
when you have 2.5x more zergs than terran in GM, in a server that caters to the United States (and no, im not american), you undeniably have got a problem.
most of the hardcore fan base this game has got left are the masters and maybe diamonds, sectors in which terran is vastly underperforming, they are the ones who keep the game active.
thank god I quit for counterstike and wow a long time ago, games which you can enjoy when you have a job and college papers to go through, instead of having to read up on the new terran nerf after i get home. Statistics "don't lie" - but there's no shortage of people who fail to interpret stats properly. First, people ought to know the difference between descriptive stats (i.e., your basic "X% of people had outcome A") and inferential stats (i.e., which actually allow you to generalise from your sample statitistics to your population parameters, thereby allowing you to make statements re: race balance beyond the sample). This much is basic stats. Second, just because there are 2.5x more Zs than Ts in GM, it doesn't mean anything about race balance if we don't know what the base rates are to begin with. For example, if there are just 2.5x more zerg players than terran players to start out with, than this would be perfectly proportional.
Must disagree with you here. The community functions like a hive mind. Everyone wants to win, whether they play casually or hardcore. No one plays to lose. We have hundreds of thousands of people playing, studying, trying to win. Eventually, on this system, the most effective way to win will become the most popular over time. Hive computing man, there are inferences to be made from the data
Edit to add: the same phenomenon can be seen in call of duty games. The farther from release, the more skewed the weapon use will be in favor of a small handful of the total available pool. Theres a reason everyone in mw3 was using acr/mp7.
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I think most terrans are quitting because it is too much stress for too little reward. You can play Protoss or Zerg easily while not being 100% focussed. You may have had a hard work day, you are thinking about other stuff. You turn on some SC2, give it a try. You will probably not have your best ladder session, but with Protoss or Zerg you will have reasonable results, win a couple of games and lose a couple of games (maybe lose a bit more than normal so you will drop slightly in ladder).
With terran, if you are not 100% focussed you have the options of cheesing or losing 90% of your games because you didn't split your marines correctly or because your APM is lower than usual so you can't keep up with your macro like you should be. And always having to focus 100% doing something that should mainly be fun is annoying and impossible for most people. So the logical conclusion is to quit playing SC2 or play another race.
Also, I would be even more interested in the percentage of games that involve terrans, not the percentage of active players playing terran. Because you count as active if you play just 1 or 2 ladder games in a season, but practically you really aren't active. I could imagine these statistics are even more devastating because terrans just don't play as many games as zerg or protoss players on average.
Also many of the popular western pro gamers constantly making jokes about terran players isn't really helping the issue, I think it influences more people than they think it does even if they are not serious about it.
In the end I think it comes down to several different reasons, lack of really charismatic+successful (western) progamers for terran like Stephano or Huk, lack of executable standard strategies that aren't insanely hard to pull off for even low GM players, too much punishment for not being 100% focussed etc.
My conclusion is that it is just not a lot of fun to play terran currently. And not because it is "harder" to be successful, but simply because it is way too punishing. Getting ahead and ahead in a game and then just throwing it away with a dumb mistake is way too easy with terran. It happens for other races, but to a much smaller extent.
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On September 21 2012 21:40 Covariance wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 19:17 shadymmj wrote: its not a troll thread, this is a legitimate balance thread because STATISTICS DON'T LIE
when you have 2.5x more zergs than terran in GM, in a server that caters to the United States (and no, im not american), you undeniably have got a problem.
most of the hardcore fan base this game has got left are the masters and maybe diamonds, sectors in which terran is vastly underperforming, they are the ones who keep the game active.
thank god I quit for counterstike and wow a long time ago, games which you can enjoy when you have a job and college papers to go through, instead of having to read up on the new terran nerf after i get home. Statistics "don't lie" - but there's no shortage of people who fail to interpret stats properly. Second, just because there are 2.5x more Zs than Ts in GM, it doesn't mean anything about race balance if we don't know what the base rates are to begin with. For example, if there are just 2.5x more zerg players than terran players to start out with, than this would be perfectly proportional. I've some doubts about the second part... I mean the GM league is filled with only 200 players, we aren't talking about the number of terran or zerg, but rather how much of them are reaching the tops. Do you really think that the more zerg than terran still applies ? I don't know about you, but i'd rather see a pretty balanced rate between all 3 races. And even so, don't you think that it should be the opposite ? Since terrans are facing way more zerg than zerg against terran, it means they got a lot more practice, yet that's not the case.
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I find this a little amusing coming from a bw perspective: The races were never ever even remotely similar in popularity in BW, that was never used as evidence of imbalance, or a consistent source of, you guessed it, whining. I'd be suprised if terran cracked the 20% barrier in BW, outside of Korea anyway. It was a very unpopular race, it required huge mechanical demands before you actually saw any progress, etc. Everyone knew and accepted that the skill curve wasnt even. That doesnt imply the game is unfair, it implies you need to play a competetive game harder-- and if your not willing to do that, than the game aint for you in the first place. No one has a right to complain that, hardly trying at all, putting no time into sc2, and playing mediocrely as fuck in Gold or diamond league--- that they cant win x match up. People will still do it, but that doesnt imply its intellectually valid.
The races are never going to be equally represented or equally difficult for newbies, move on. Koreans are better than the whiny terrans in the foreign community and you know what they say? TVZ is terran favoured and protoss is a tad op; we get totally opposite discussions here because we spend our time self consciously complaining about balance instead of practicing.
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On September 21 2012 21:55 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 21:40 Covariance wrote:On September 21 2012 19:17 shadymmj wrote: its not a troll thread, this is a legitimate balance thread because STATISTICS DON'T LIE
when you have 2.5x more zergs than terran in GM, in a server that caters to the United States (and no, im not american), you undeniably have got a problem.
most of the hardcore fan base this game has got left are the masters and maybe diamonds, sectors in which terran is vastly underperforming, they are the ones who keep the game active.
thank god I quit for counterstike and wow a long time ago, games which you can enjoy when you have a job and college papers to go through, instead of having to read up on the new terran nerf after i get home. Statistics "don't lie" - but there's no shortage of people who fail to interpret stats properly. Second, just because there are 2.5x more Zs than Ts in GM, it doesn't mean anything about race balance if we don't know what the base rates are to begin with. For example, if there are just 2.5x more zerg players than terran players to start out with, than this would be perfectly proportional. I've some doubts about the second part... I mean the GM league is filled with only 200 players, we aren't talking about the number of terran or zerg, but rather how much of them are reaching the tops. Do you really think that the more zerg than terran still applies ? I don't know about you, but i'd rather see a pretty balanced rate between all 3 races. And even so, don't you think that it should be the opposite ? Since terrans are facing way more zerg than zerg against terran, it means they got a lot more practice, yet that's not the case.
Nope; still applies.Think about it:
Imagine if we collapsed every league from bronze to GM and we found there were
100,000 Terran players 450,000 Toss Players 450,000 Zerg Players
In a perfectly balanced scenario, you would expect ~ 4.5x as many zergs as Terrans in GM, and about equal numbers of zergs and tosses.
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On September 21 2012 21:58 whatevername wrote: I find this a little amusing coming from a bw perspective: The races were never ever even remotely similar in popularity in BW, that was never used as evidence of imbalance, or a consistent source of, you guessed it, whining. I'd be suprised if terran cracked the 20% barrier in BW, outside of Korea anyway. It was a very unpopular race, it required huge mechanical demands before you actually saw any progress, etc. Everyone knew and accepted that the skill curve wasnt even. That doesnt imply the game is unfair, it implies you need to play a competetive game harder-- and if your not willing to do that, than the game aint for you in the first place. No one has a right to complain that, hardly trying at all, putting no time into sc2, and playing mediocrely as fuck in Gold or diamond league--- that they cant win x match up. People will still do it, but that doesnt imply its intellectually valid.
The races are never going to be equally represented or equally difficult for newbies, move on. Koreans are better than the whiny terrans in the foreign community and you know what they say? TVZ is terran favoured and protoss is a tad op; we get totally opposite discussions here because we spend our time self consciously complaining about balance instead of practicing. well said
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On September 21 2012 21:55 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 21:40 Covariance wrote:On September 21 2012 19:17 shadymmj wrote: its not a troll thread, this is a legitimate balance thread because STATISTICS DON'T LIE
when you have 2.5x more zergs than terran in GM, in a server that caters to the United States (and no, im not american), you undeniably have got a problem.
most of the hardcore fan base this game has got left are the masters and maybe diamonds, sectors in which terran is vastly underperforming, they are the ones who keep the game active.
thank god I quit for counterstike and wow a long time ago, games which you can enjoy when you have a job and college papers to go through, instead of having to read up on the new terran nerf after i get home. Statistics "don't lie" - but there's no shortage of people who fail to interpret stats properly. Second, just because there are 2.5x more Zs than Ts in GM, it doesn't mean anything about race balance if we don't know what the base rates are to begin with. For example, if there are just 2.5x more zerg players than terran players to start out with, than this would be perfectly proportional. I've some doubts about the second part... I mean the GM league is filled with only 200 players, we aren't talking about the number of terran or zerg, but rather how much of them are reaching the tops. Do you really think that the more zerg than terran still applies ? I don't know about you, but i'd rather see a pretty balanced rate between all 3 races. And even so, don't you think that it should be the opposite ? Since terrans are facing way more zerg than zerg against terran, it means they got a lot more practice, yet that's not the case.
That second part is in fact wrong. If the races were equal you would expect to see a more normal distribution, not necessarily dead even, but not what it is now. There is a reason for the disparity, I believe its because most people will naturally gravitate towards what is more effective.
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On September 21 2012 21:55 RaiZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 21:40 Covariance wrote:On September 21 2012 19:17 shadymmj wrote: its not a troll thread, this is a legitimate balance thread because STATISTICS DON'T LIE
when you have 2.5x more zergs than terran in GM, in a server that caters to the United States (and no, im not american), you undeniably have got a problem.
most of the hardcore fan base this game has got left are the masters and maybe diamonds, sectors in which terran is vastly underperforming, they are the ones who keep the game active.
thank god I quit for counterstike and wow a long time ago, games which you can enjoy when you have a job and college papers to go through, instead of having to read up on the new terran nerf after i get home. Statistics "don't lie" - but there's no shortage of people who fail to interpret stats properly. Second, just because there are 2.5x more Zs than Ts in GM, it doesn't mean anything about race balance if we don't know what the base rates are to begin with. For example, if there are just 2.5x more zerg players than terran players to start out with, than this would be perfectly proportional. I've some doubts about the second part... I mean the GM league is filled with only 200 players, we aren't talking about the number of terran or zerg, but rather how much of them are reaching the tops. Do you really think that the more zerg than terran still applies ? I don't know about you, but i'd rather see a pretty balanced rate between all 3 races. And even so, don't you think that it should be the opposite ? Since terrans are facing way more zerg than zerg against terran, it means they got a lot more practice, yet that's not the case.
Nope - you're missing the point completely. The importance of base rates still applies. Think about it:
Imagine if we collapsed every league from bronze to GM and we found there were
100,000 Terran players 450,000 Toss Players 450,000 Zerg Players
In a perfectly balanced scenario, you would expect ~ 4.5x as many zergs as Terrans in GM, and about equal numbers of zergs and tosses. In other words, 20 Terrans, 90 Zergs, 90 Protosses.
This is a wild example, but it's used to demonstrate the principle.
In sum: You can't say that since there are a disproportionate number of race X in GM, that this race is not adequately balanced UNLESS you have information on the base rates.
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i rly hate when people coming up with percents, but doesnt name the real numbers...
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If the race distribution is skewed down do Bronze league it's a reasonable assumption that there are just less Terran player overall and the distrubtion of player base playing race X and GM spots might be accurate. Even though I think Terran needs a buff, their armies are just to squishy against P and Z (you didnt mico correct for a short amount of time? game lost).
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