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Keep this civil, guys |
On May 04 2012 17:54 TheDraken wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:41 adrenaLinG wrote:On May 04 2012 17:31 TheDraken wrote:On May 04 2012 17:14 jmbthirteen wrote:On May 04 2012 17:06 TheDraken wrote:On May 04 2012 16:53 DystopiaX wrote:On May 04 2012 16:50 TheDraken wrote:On May 04 2012 16:44 DystopiaX wrote:On May 04 2012 16:41 Dodgin wrote:
I'm starting to see a pattern here.
For better or for worse things are changing around sc2 and how the teams/community functions compared to a year ago or even less than that.
Oh well I'll always have the GSL/OSL/PL even if the foreign sc2 scene nukes itself into oblivion. I fail to see how getting the community to act more professionally will "nuke" it. the community is driven by its character, and trying to make it "professional" in this way will strip the life out of it. this is a videogame. we are videogamers. we should expect people to act like a videogamer, not some pompous golfer. I'm a gamer. All my friends are gamers. I don't know any one of them that uses words like "gook", "nigger", or "Chink". And there's a difference between someone gaming on their own and a professional- and to those who claim he's just a streamer in private, that's what he's best known for, and he's representing a professional gaming team. If he isn't one, then he shouldn't be on one. I'm sure tons of people playing Basketball for fun use homophobic slurs, but if an NBA player did he would get his ass fined and maybe a suspension. If you're a public figure, you're held to a different standard .Simple as that. well i'm glad you think you and your friends are the scope of the situation. unfortunately for you there's a bigger world outside that DOES include nigger gook and chink in it. there are people out there that realize words are just words. honestly, i thought the whole sticks and stones thing was something people learned when they were like 5. the whole "protection of the public" argument really only comes into play when people don't have a choice if they hear those words or not. but people have a choice, and yet they still want to shit on destiny. this isn't basketball. it never will be. people trying to turn starcraft into something that will be shown on ESPN and watched by millions of people have their heads in the clouds. people need to realize that this is just a videogame, and that "pros" are just people really good at a videogame. people engage in this stuff to relax and unwind... the last thing we need is a tight-collar corporate mentality plaguing this community. Ok, I'm sick of this bull shit excuse that words are just words. If you are going to say this, then why are you using "nigger" and "gook" as an insult? Because you know exactly what those words mean and where they come from. You are using them in a derogatory fashion, the same way that those words are used by a racist. You know damn well that you are being insulting with those words. You can't sit there and say words are words and you aren't using them as a racist, when you use them to put the person down the same way racists do. there seems to be this movement to go back to the "true" meaning of an insult, and i don't really understand why people are doing it. and excellent example is the word fag. it recently wasn't such an insulting word. you'd call someone being a moron a fag or a faggot and they wouldn't get much offended over it. but now we have people going around trying to get people to stop it just because the origin of the word is associated with burning gays. now people flip shit when you say fag out in public simply because some people chose to make it an issue. the word retarded. as you've seen in this thread people are shitting themselves over a mod saying it. i've seen shirts with people trying to "spread the word to end the word". it's like everyone has some fucking oppressed group they represent and they're trying to get the world to tiptoe around offending them. you mentioned the word nigger. i don't think you realize people use the word as a catch-all insult similar to "fucker" or "faggot". within communities like destiny's, the word barely has a racial connotation. but then overly sensitive wimps will bust down the community from the outside just because they want to tie the word back to racism. it's fucking stupid. trying to censor the world doesn't do anything. it only creates these "big bad words" that everyone knows but is forbidden to use. just get some thicker skin, let the insults flow freely, and over time this kind of shit won't get so offensive. Let the insults flow freely? Yes, because a society where our leaders and professionals can call each other things like nigger or faggot or gook is definitely civilized and progressive! Let's also ignore the fact that there just seem to be no good insults for white, heterosexual male nerds, Destiny's lifeline of streamwatchers.! On May 04 2012 17:33 Ferrex wrote:
You guys make me pretty fucking sad, I bet you're all really proud of doing shit like this.
I fucking hate this community. You're welcome to leave, close the door on the way out. i wonder why that is. hm. maybe people tried to use a word like "cracker" to insult white people, but white people decided getting offended over it was retarded. so it didn't stick, and now it's a shitty insult. just think if we did that with all "bad words".
Or, you know, maybe using "cracker" as an insult against white people had no weight, because white people don't get beaten to death on the street for being a "cracker". They do for being a "nigger" or a "faggot".
Your implication that white people have just somehow risen above the 'abuse' they receive is the most laughable thing I've ever heard.
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On May 04 2012 17:49 adrenaLinG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:44 TheDraken wrote:On May 04 2012 17:34 FairForever wrote:On May 04 2012 17:32 TiDragOnflY wrote:
Hello everyone my name is david and i am from the netherlands. I would like to give my opinion about this matter because i am confused about the behaviour of several people in this community.
I honestly believe that most people in this community are intelligent, social and understanding human beings.
That being said, I fail to understand why people that dont even care about the whole rasicm matter are still die-hard trying to get Destiny removed from TL+his team and make him loose his income just because you dont get enough attention or just hate Destiny as a person. My question for you all is how many times have you said that to someone? online or in real life. i sure know i have called alot of people a lot of names.Does that make me 'cool' or a good/better person of course not but almost everbody does it and the point i am trying to make here is this ''He without sins trow the first rock'. If you see your friend saying faggot to somebody would you go and call their boss? to get them fired for racism? I doubt you would. And if you say well Destiny is not a friend of mine then my question for you is: Dont you believe all humans are equal? Treat everyone the way you would like them to Treat you? So guys in general if you do not like something then for the love of starcraft please do not watch it or comment on it. I mean why even bother if you dont like the player/caster just mute/ignore/avoid them. you dont have to listen to someone. and also you know who Destiny is by now and you know how he talks/typs and please dont say well maybe these people have not yet seen what Destiny is all about because I fail to believe such a thing. I cannot comprehend that so many people that watched Destiny for the first time would comment on this. Anyways this is something i wanted to get off my chest for a long time and i would like to thank everyone that took the time reading this.
Kind regards,
`David`
I'm pretty sure most of us have not used racist language, even if some of us are bad mannered on BNet. It's completely unacceptable. And it's also criminal in some areas. John Terry the soccer player was recently charged with a criminal offense for the same reason. There's a reason why it's criminal, it's hurtful and demeaning to others. the point is it doesn't HAVE to be offensive. for fucks sake the word "guy" used to be an offensive word. are you offended now when someone calls you a guy? no, because everyone got off their shitty high horse and realized words are just words. if a person genuinely becomes hurt, offended, demeaned, and insulted by a word someone says, then that person needs to get a grip or deal with their insecurities. the world should not have to silence itself to pamper overly sensitive people. Hey internet tough guy, just because you like subjecting yourself to grotesque internet gutters doesn't mean the rest of the world needs to be exposed to it to be "desensitized". Your reasoning is absolutely garbage, you could say we should be less offended over child pornography and that people need to get a grip and just "deal with it"
you call my reasoning garbage, and yet you're trying to compare name calling to child abuse? good one.
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On May 04 2012 17:58 Jakkerr wrote:The thing that annoys me is that people actually send messages to sponsors etc about this, cause they are HURTING E-SPORTS 1000 times more then Destiny. How do you think sponsors respond? 'Oh this guy we sponsored used racial language on his stream and is now kicked, now it's all good' OR 'Lol people from this internet game are messaging us that people we sponsor use racial language, fack that shit we stop sponsoring this stuff'. Pretty obviously the 2nd one  . If this guy had genuine interests abuot Destiny he would have contacted the Quantic management and handle it that way. But instead he created a lot of unncessary drama, clap clap clap clap.
It's probably more like "we don't want to be associated with someone who consistently uses racist language."
There's a reason why people who spout intolerant language, such as Rush Limbaugh, lose sponsors.
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On May 04 2012 17:53 bokchoi wrote:
.. Destiny knows TeamLiquid the community and the pro team are different right? Razer sponsors the team not the community site or its moderators.
Other than that, its great we're "cleaning-up" the community in a sense, but these witch hunts need to go. I guess the good thing for Destiny is that he doesn't give a shit either way.
I have to agree about the ''cleaning-up'' the community. If we are ever going to make Esports mainstream, we need to weed out pro players who use racists slurs or otherwise are offensive.
It is quite sad thing to do, but it needs to be done sooner or later. The sooner the better of course.
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On May 04 2012 17:58 Apolo wrote:
Nice. Badly educated people should get punished.
Omg... let's punished 80% of the world then.
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On May 04 2012 17:32 TiDragOnflY wrote:
Hello everyone my name is david and i am from the netherlands. I would like to give my opinion about this matter because i am confused about the behaviour of several people in this community.
I honestly believe that most people in this community are intelligent, social and understanding human beings.
That being said, I fail to understand why people that dont even care about the whole rasicm matter are still die-hard trying to get Destiny removed from TL+his team and make him loose his income just because you dont get enough attention or just hate Destiny as a person. My question for you all is how many times have you said that to someone? online or in real life. i sure know i have called alot of people a lot of names.Does that make me 'cool' or a good/better person of course not but almost everbody does it and the point i am trying to make here is this ''He without sins trow the first rock'. If you see your friend saying faggot to somebody would you go and call their boss? to get them fired for racism? I doubt you would. And if you say well Destiny is not a friend of mine then my question for you is: Dont you believe all humans are equal? Treat everyone the way you would like them to Treat you? So guys in general if you do not like something then for the love of starcraft please do not watch it or comment on it. I mean why even bother if you dont like the player/caster just mute/ignore/avoid them. you dont have to listen to someone. and also you know who Destiny is by now and you know how he talks/typs and please dont say well maybe these people have not yet seen what Destiny is all about because I fail to believe such a thing. I cannot comprehend that so many people that watched Destiny for the first time would comment on this. Anyways this is something i wanted to get off my chest for a long time and i would like to thank everyone that took the time reading this.
Kind regards,
`David`
Well, David...
The points you bring up are outside StarCraft and unrelated to what led up to this situation. You ask, how many times have we said something "racial" to someone? I personally, have not but that's not the point. The point is that Destiny is in a different position then the readers your directing your question to. It's about "status". Destiny represents sponsers whereas the readers represent themselves and the StarCraft community; there's a difference. If you represent an organization it is imperative you do so with respect because MOST sponsers want a good reputation. Destinys actions were not only disrespectful to the sponsers but the players he used them against. In some forms it is disrespectful to the viewers but it's also the viewers choice to watch the stream so that negates that argument. As for your "faggot" argument; It depends where you use the language. Destiny is using such language at his "job" which is publicly broadcasted via streams. So, if he were to say it offline or some place where a paper trail couldn't be collected then it wouldn't matter. Destiny is a complete unprofessional for displaying such actions at his "job" as he has mentioned that this game is his "source of income". The fault doesn't lie in those who sent the emails, it lies in the person who didn't have enough self control to show respect to the players he lost against.
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On May 04 2012 17:59 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:57 dave_ wrote:On May 04 2012 17:55 Sprouter wrote:
we're in the big leagues now kids. if you want to swear or say whatever you want, don't become public. big leagues LOL u know everyone swears like a boss? even at high leven football/soccer/whatever? but go ahead, enlighten us with your knowledge how this world works edit lol again @ big leagues cause swearing is racist!
since when?
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On May 04 2012 17:59 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:58 Jakkerr wrote:The thing that annoys me is that people actually send messages to sponsors etc about this, cause they are HURTING E-SPORTS 1000 times more then Destiny. How do you think sponsors respond? 'Oh this guy we sponsored used racial language on his stream and is now kicked, now it's all good' OR 'Lol people from this internet game are messaging us that people we sponsor use racial language, fack that shit we stop sponsoring this stuff'. Pretty obviously the 2nd one . If this guy had genuine interests abuot Destiny he would have contacted the Quantic management and handle it that way. But instead he created a lot of unncessary drama, clap clap clap clap. It's probably more like "we don't want to be associated with someone who consistently uses racist language." There's a reason why people who spout intolerant language, such as Rush Limbaugh, lose sponsors.
Sponsors who came crawling back after a month once everything had settled down. Rush Limbaugh didn't really lose a lot of sponsors.
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On May 04 2012 18:00 dave_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:59 jmbthirteen wrote:On May 04 2012 17:57 dave_ wrote:On May 04 2012 17:55 Sprouter wrote:
we're in the big leagues now kids. if you want to swear or say whatever you want, don't become public. big leagues LOL u know everyone swears like a boss? even at high leven football/soccer/whatever? but go ahead, enlighten us with your knowledge how this world works edit lol again @ big leagues cause swearing is racist! since when?
He was being sarcastic.
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I think every once in a while people need to step outside of their cold, lonely mom's basement and realize there is a world outside starcraft, where things exist that actually matter.
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On May 04 2012 17:55 TiDragOnflY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:54 adrenaLinG wrote:On May 04 2012 17:51 Myrkskog wrote:On May 04 2012 17:45 FairForever wrote:This context is slightly different than using the word as a reference to an African American. I think the meaning of my point was understood. So it's okay if it's not used in a racist context, or at least not as bad? Do you believe that Destiny genuinely hates the Korean people? And you can say white/black people, those words aren't African Americanlisted yet. Clearly shouting "fire" in a crowded theatre is OK given that the context that there is no actual fire right? Even if you did it for the "lulz" and didn't intend for the fire department to show up? Okay this make no sense what so ever. that is not a joke if you scream fire or bomb for that matter.
That's the point. No one gives a shit about your actual intent if you're using nigger this nigger that the same way orb and destiny do -- you're straight up ignorant.
You think the Department of Homeland Security cares about what your intent is when you make bomb threats? No, they will arrest you on your words alone. Leave the intent finding to the lawyers and judges
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On May 04 2012 17:57 Cascade wrote:Can I reply to this, just because you used so many words and signed and everything!  Some paragraphs would have been nice when you were at it, but you're fine. Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:32 TiDragOnflY wrote:
Hello everyone my name is david and i am from the netherlands. I would like to give my opinion about this matter because i am confused about the behaviour of several people in this community.
I honestly believe that most people in this community are intelligent, social and understanding human beings.
That being said, I fail to understand why people that dont even care about the whole rasicm matter are still die-hard trying to get Destiny removed from TL+his team and make him loose his income just because you dont get enough attention or just hate Destiny as a person. I care about racism. I don't like it, and I am ready to put in some (at least internet-) time to fight it. You will find that most people are. Show nested quote + My question for you all is how many times have you said that to someone? online or in real life. Zero and zero. You will find that most people don't use racial slurs. Not sure what kind of people you hang around with though. You shouldn't. Of course not. Maybe a larger fraction of the people you hang around with does, but not a large fraction of ALL people. Show nested quote + and the point i am trying to make here is this ''He without sins trow the first rock'. If you see your friend saying faggot to somebody would you go and call their boss? to get them fired for racism? I doubt you would. I would definitely not react well if one of my friends would start using slurs. My friends, like most people, wouldn't do that however. Show nested quote + And if you say well Destiny is not a friend of mine then my question for you is: Dont you believe all humans are equal? All humans are different. I am not saying that some people are worth more, or some more evil than others. But I do say that there are (subjectively) ethical and unethical actions. And Destiny has taken up a habit of performing plenty of unethical actions, according to the standards of most people. That doesn't make him an evil human being, just another unique snowflake person that has taken up bad habits. If someone would insult me with that kind of slurs (actually that happened once by a Korean teenager that hated "white trash" in a stream chat...) I would like bystanders to defend me. You present it as if it's a crime without victims. This is not copyright infringement. Show nested quote + So guys in general if you do not like something then for the love of starcraft please do not watch it or comment on it. I mean why even bother if you dont like the player/caster just mute/ignore/avoid them. you dont have to listen to someone. This argument is stupid, because it can always be turned around... Then if you don't like people complaining about it, you don't have to listen to them. You don't like the mobs complaining, then don't listen to it. Unfortunately.  Show nested quote +and you know how he talks/typs and please dont say well maybe these people have not yet seen what Destiny is all about because I fail to believe such a thing. I cannot comprehend that so many people that watched Destiny for the first time would comment on this. This is not about the people watching the first time and getting chocked by the language. Imo this is more than anything a signal to all the kids in the sc2 community that it is not ok to use racial slurs. Show nested quote + Anyways this is something i wanted to get off my chest for a long time and i would like to thank everyone that took the time reading this.
Kind regards,
`David`
I hope you could address your confusion. Enjoy the drama. 
Thank you for your well written post and i would like to edit to my post that i may have overestemated the number of persons that use ''bad/racial'' language. I stand corrected
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When your a progamer, you take on a certain level or responsibilty, hence the "pro". If you dont want that responsibilty, dont get sponsored.
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On May 04 2012 17:47 Son of Gnome wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:40 BlazeFury01 wrote:On May 04 2012 17:36 SedativeDev wrote:
This community (SC2) is getting more and more purist. It's ridiculous. No Sir. It's actually becoming more professional by getting rid of the immature people who don't seem to have self control nor respect for the viewers. By professional you mean if you slip up and say something that could be considered offensive by some people then your going to have an angry mob on ur ass?
There's a trend in destinys behavior. This is certainly no "slip up".
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On May 04 2012 17:57 TiDragOnflY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:56 Jacobs Ladder wrote:On May 04 2012 17:48 Zarahtra wrote:On May 04 2012 17:39 Jacobs Ladder wrote:I'm going to copy somthing I posted on reddit: It really makes me sad. As I said, I've worked hard for esports. I was one of the first officers of Tespa. I worked in the weeks leading to the first two tournaments so hard that I nearly flunked out of school. I worked during these tournaments so hard that I was sick for a week afterwards. I ran between buildings, dealt with players, and otherwise exhausted myself to the point my immune system shut down. I then parted with Tespa because I suffer from clinical depression and was in such a bad place I nearly left school. More than that, I nearly took my own life. I wasn't any good to the organization.
I came back later and helped with the lone star clash. I again worked so hard I was sick the following week. I love Esports. I wanted it to succeed. After seeing people supporting the use of racial slurs, and particularly offensive to me, the word "faggot," I'm not so sure anymore. This community hates so many people that I love. I'm not sure I want them to be acceptable. That means their hatred becomes acceptable.
NB: I am no longer connected to Tespa, these are my personal opinons and do not reflect the opinions of tespa. I want to expand upon this. I really do care for Esports. It's given me a lot of joy. Sadly, its myopic acceptance of hate speech is unacceptable to me. I've grew up in around a lot of gay people. Neighbors, my best friends parents, teachers. These are people that have made my life better. As I said above, I suffer from depression. Its sever, I'm barely functional at times. I struggle every single day, and when someone sullies something I love (esports) by insulting, belittling, and dehumanizing the people who have made my life tolerable it infuriates me. More than that, it drains my passion. I've pretty much stopped caring. I'm embarrassed to be associated with esports at this point. Leading up to the lone star clash I had a friend, who knows nothing about starcraft, ask me about the misogynist my organization was flying to campus. That shit hurts. That shit actually is killing esports. It's kind of hard to respond to something like this, but you still have to look at the context in which people are using these words. I mean people should refrain from using them no doubt, but if I say something like "that stuff is so gay" it really isn't my intention to belittle gay people. I'm pretty sure this applies to Destiny too, he's just to stubborn to admit it and try to be more sensitive to other people's feelings(as in obviously not the person he's bming, but the minorities in the community). The thing is, whether you mean it to belittle them or not, it does. Imagine a young, gay kid coming to this community. Seeing the pedestal we place destiny and similar players on. Imagine how awful that must feel to hear him call other people faggots. To use it as one of, if not the ultimate insult. That sucks. Intention doesn't really matter in this case. Even if you don't mean to belittle homosexuals, you are. If, when you say the N word you don't mean it in a racist way, it carries that meaning. It's not ok. And you expect the ''young gay kid'' to never hear of bad language anywhere else? he just comes to play starcraft and then he thinks he is not accepted by the community? i think you need a reality check
I expect a community that I've poured passion into the be better than that. Granted, that unrealistic and idealistic. This community is garbage and I've given up on it long ago. That said I will continue to write to sponsors and advocate against bigots like destiny.
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Never been so disappointed being part of a community as I am right now
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On May 04 2012 18:00 dave_ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:59 jmbthirteen wrote:On May 04 2012 17:57 dave_ wrote:On May 04 2012 17:55 Sprouter wrote:
we're in the big leagues now kids. if you want to swear or say whatever you want, don't become public. big leagues LOL u know everyone swears like a boss? even at high leven football/soccer/whatever? but go ahead, enlighten us with your knowledge how this world works edit lol again @ big leagues cause swearing is racist! since when?
you really didn't catch the sarcasm? Destiny didn't get into trouble for swearing like we see in the big leagues. He got into trouble for using racist language.
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Haha I love how everyone is dead serious about stuff like that xD
Nerd was an insult once -> didn't give a shit and now only fucked up people use it
You are such a retard/ You are retarded -> It's an insult but I would never insult handicapped people so where is the difference?
Anyways keep on entertaining me here pls :D
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On May 04 2012 18:00 SolHeiM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:59 FairForever wrote:On May 04 2012 17:58 Jakkerr wrote:The thing that annoys me is that people actually send messages to sponsors etc about this, cause they are HURTING E-SPORTS 1000 times more then Destiny. How do you think sponsors respond? 'Oh this guy we sponsored used racial language on his stream and is now kicked, now it's all good' OR 'Lol people from this internet game are messaging us that people we sponsor use racial language, fack that shit we stop sponsoring this stuff'. Pretty obviously the 2nd one . If this guy had genuine interests abuot Destiny he would have contacted the Quantic management and handle it that way. But instead he created a lot of unncessary drama, clap clap clap clap. It's probably more like "we don't want to be associated with someone who consistently uses racist language." There's a reason why people who spout intolerant language, such as Rush Limbaugh, lose sponsors. Sponsors who came crawling back after a month once everything had settled down. Rush Limbaugh didn't really lose a lot of sponsors.
Hasn't he been boasting lately that he is actually making more ad revenue than before. Heard it a couple places not sure if it's true though.
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On May 04 2012 18:00 SolHeiM wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 17:59 FairForever wrote:On May 04 2012 17:58 Jakkerr wrote:The thing that annoys me is that people actually send messages to sponsors etc about this, cause they are HURTING E-SPORTS 1000 times more then Destiny. How do you think sponsors respond? 'Oh this guy we sponsored used racial language on his stream and is now kicked, now it's all good' OR 'Lol people from this internet game are messaging us that people we sponsor use racial language, fack that shit we stop sponsoring this stuff'. Pretty obviously the 2nd one . If this guy had genuine interests abuot Destiny he would have contacted the Quantic management and handle it that way. But instead he created a lot of unncessary drama, clap clap clap clap. It's probably more like "we don't want to be associated with someone who consistently uses racist language." There's a reason why people who spout intolerant language, such as Rush Limbaugh, lose sponsors. Sponsors who came crawling back after a month once everything had settled down. Rush Limbaugh didn't really lose a lot of sponsors.
Not really. Rush Limbaugh has lost over 40 sponsors to date. TWO have returned.
EDIT: Actually none have returned. Rush claims that they've begged to return and he's denied them. No one believes that crap.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/entertainmentnewsbuzz/2012/03/rush-limbaugh-advertiser.html
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EPT
