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Think twice before hitting post; this thread will be moderated for idiocy and useless posts. Consider this a warning. |
On May 02 2012 05:33 Holytornados wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:01 Silvertine wrote:On May 02 2012 04:57 Holytornados wrote:On May 02 2012 04:55 Silvertine wrote:On May 02 2012 04:52 Holytornados wrote:On May 02 2012 04:49 Corrosive wrote:On May 02 2012 04:47 Arghmyliver wrote:
What the fuck guys.
If you ACTUALLY BELIEVE that ONE RACE is SUPERIOR to another - you are an IGNORANT FUCKING LUNATIC.
THE ONLY reason that these words were EVER offensive was the CONTEXT IN WHICH THEY WERE USED.
Its fucking 2012 - the most fucking offensive term these days in the US is probably "sandnigger" because racist fucking lunatics actually think that people of Middle-Eastern/Arabic descent are inferior. And that's just pure, dumb, stupid, ignorance. And honestly it stems from the fact that these idiots are pants-shitting xenophobics. They are SO AFRAID of a group of people that they resort to dehumanizing them.
That makes you a racist. It also makes you a fucking dumbass.
Do you HONESTLY BELIEVE that Destiny is like "Oh God, not another Korean! I hate these guys, they all look alike and they've got no Seoul cause they Seould it to get good at SC!"?
If so than you're fucking dumb. Seems suspicious that he happened to land on the word "gook" while playing vs. a korean huh? A lot of the time people throw the term "nigger" around at everyone, not just black people. It doesn't matter who he was facing; it was just a word he used. Oh, so he just happened to say "gook" against someone who clearly had an Asian name twice(the other case being on LoL)? That doesn't seem very likely. No, he definitely picked gook because of the Asian name. But a lot fo white players use pseudo-Asian names occasionally. He was not trying to personally offend the OP, he was just raging and picked a word that he deemed suitable. He wasn't trying to personally offend an Asian person... by telling them "Fuck off gook"? You must realize how ridiculous that sounds. People try to just troll and get under each others skin by using words they know will offend people. You can't not know this. Edit: my point was that this doesn't make someone a racist for using one word to get a rise out of a person.
So what do you call a white person to get under their skin?
I also don't really think the way to get people to stop using offensive slurs is just to demand that they stop using them.
The only real way to have change happen is for people to think about whether they really want to act like that or not.
my 2 cents: Majority of TL will be straight white male, and it seems a large portion believe in the whole "who cares, why do people get offended by this?, no one should care if i use the words nigger, faggot, gook, beaner etc they are just words".
Well, what do all those words which are meant to be as offensive as possible have in common? none of them have anything to do with straight white males.
Basically, it's easy to say people are overly sensitive over words when there are no real offensive words that you can be called or take offense to. I mean "cracker" and "honkey" don't really cut in the same way. If they did people including whites would use those words to insult people too but they don't.
Do whatever or say whatever you want, but at least think about it from a different perspective before you do.
What I did find funny though is how people think gook is a term meant to offend all Asians it's supposed to refer to Koreans specifically. It's kinda like if he called someone a "jap" and then people said "Asians are you offended?" that is sort of offensive in it's own way haha.
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Im just impressed this was posted today and has already generated 96 pages of replies. Destiny may never win any notable tournaments but hes up there in popularity.
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On May 02 2012 05:37 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:35 Shiori wrote:On May 02 2012 05:34 thatsundowner wrote:On May 02 2012 05:32 Shiori wrote:On May 02 2012 05:29 Klondikebar wrote:On May 02 2012 05:28 Orracle wrote:On May 02 2012 05:17 Klondikebar wrote:
IdrA is a bad boy.
Stephano is a bad boy.
LastShadow is (at least perceived as) a bad boy.
They all manage to do it without bigotry. Bigotry does not add a rich dimension to any personality. It just makes you an asshole (and not the likeable kind).
I'm assuming you're not too familiar with these players. Idra? The person who for a while would essentially use faggot every time he lost a game? LastShadow, who verbally taunted Desrow with homophobic slurs and about his weight so much, that Desrow physically attacked him? IdrA has specifically cleaned up his act. He doesn't get to be lumped in with the hateful players anymore. I was not aware of the LastShadow incident. Yeah, because merely expressing how terrible everyone who beats him is in a considerate way is leagues above calling someone a 'nigger.' Makes all kinds of sense. One isn't insulting to an entire group of people who have suffered unthinkable hardship over the course of history, you fucking idiot. Actually, neither are. I'm not even going to entertain the idea that using the word 'nigger' in casual speech is somehow a blanket attack on all black people everywhere. It's just nonsense. What's nonsense is that you think you can rewrite history and that you can define what is and isn't offensive for everyone else.
I'd bet the most "offended" people here are white.
I'm half Asian, half white, I don't give a flying fuck about Destiny's usage, but have picked fights with people who have used them directly at me in person in a heated situation.
In short, the situations are different. They simply are.
On May 02 2012 05:39 Nibbler89 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:33 Holytornados wrote:On May 02 2012 05:01 Silvertine wrote:On May 02 2012 04:57 Holytornados wrote:On May 02 2012 04:55 Silvertine wrote:On May 02 2012 04:52 Holytornados wrote:On May 02 2012 04:49 Corrosive wrote:On May 02 2012 04:47 Arghmyliver wrote:
What the fuck guys.
If you ACTUALLY BELIEVE that ONE RACE is SUPERIOR to another - you are an IGNORANT FUCKING LUNATIC.
THE ONLY reason that these words were EVER offensive was the CONTEXT IN WHICH THEY WERE USED.
Its fucking 2012 - the most fucking offensive term these days in the US is probably "sandnigger" because racist fucking lunatics actually think that people of Middle-Eastern/Arabic descent are inferior. And that's just pure, dumb, stupid, ignorance. And honestly it stems from the fact that these idiots are pants-shitting xenophobics. They are SO AFRAID of a group of people that they resort to dehumanizing them.
That makes you a racist. It also makes you a fucking dumbass.
Do you HONESTLY BELIEVE that Destiny is like "Oh God, not another Korean! I hate these guys, they all look alike and they've got no Seoul cause they Seould it to get good at SC!"?
If so than you're fucking dumb. Seems suspicious that he happened to land on the word "gook" while playing vs. a korean huh? A lot of the time people throw the term "nigger" around at everyone, not just black people. It doesn't matter who he was facing; it was just a word he used. Oh, so he just happened to say "gook" against someone who clearly had an Asian name twice(the other case being on LoL)? That doesn't seem very likely. No, he definitely picked gook because of the Asian name. But a lot fo white players use pseudo-Asian names occasionally. He was not trying to personally offend the OP, he was just raging and picked a word that he deemed suitable. He wasn't trying to personally offend an Asian person... by telling them "Fuck off gook"? You must realize how ridiculous that sounds. People try to just troll and get under each others skin by using words they know will offend people. You can't not know this. Edit: my point was that this doesn't make someone a racist for using one word to get a rise out of a person. So what do you call a white person to get under their skin? I also don't really think the way to get people to stop using offensive slurs is just to demand that they stop using them. The only real way to have change happen is for people to think about whether they really want to act like that or not. my 2 cents: Majority of TL will be straight white male, and it seems a large portion believe in the whole "who cares, why do people get offended by this?, no one should care if i use the words nigger, faggot, gook, beaner etc they are just words". Well, what do all those words which are meant to be as offensive as possible have in common? none of them have anything to do with straight white males. Basically, it's easy to say people are overly sensitive over words when there are no real offensive words that you can be called or take offense to. I mean "cracker" and "honkey" don't really cut in the same way. If they did people including whites would use those words to insult people too but they don't. Do whatever or say whatever you want, but at least think about it from a different perspective before you do. What I did find funny though is how people think gook is a term meant to offend all Asians it's supposed to refer to Koreans specifically. It's kinda like if he called someone a "jap" and then people said "Asians are you offended?" that is sort of offensive in it's own way haha.
1. White people are those that tend to get most offended.
2. Gook is not meant to refer to Koreans. While used in the Korean war, its entire derogatory base is founded in being a racial slur towards the Vietnamese, not Koreans.
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An insult meant to insult and an insult meant to discriminate against are two very different things.
Calling someone 'gay' doesn't make you homophobic, unless you actually mean it in the most literal sense (which is not very often). I wish people would learn this distinction already.
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On May 02 2012 05:39 YouMake wrote:
Im just impressed this was posted today and has already generated 96 pages of replies. Destiny may never win any notable tournaments but hes up there in popularity.
Actually just shows how divisive the SC2 scene is in terms of addressing racism in our own community.
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Ugh looking at the screen shot makes me wonder if you preemptive gg'ed him after your all in. The all in already led to the rage from destiny but I guess he went over the hill with it after you said gg but I dont know. He has already said he wont change himself. Nor did he ever want to be a community figure. So this bm of his is not surprising to hear from. The only thing that I find surprising is that I never hear him say derogatory terms towards white people. But regardless of that he was signed by Quantic knowing his personality fully. But hey maybe he gets fined who knows. You cant compare a caster (Orb) and a player (Destiny) in this situation. They are both on different pedestals.
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On May 02 2012 05:36 Ragados wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:12 FairForever wrote:On May 02 2012 05:11 Denzil wrote:On May 02 2012 05:10 FairForever wrote:On May 02 2012 05:08 Denzil wrote:On May 02 2012 05:04 Audemed wrote:
He's more popular than Orb (IDK why), so no, he wont get fired.
Should contact quantic's sponsors though. No. Read the fucking thread instead of hoping in and posting shit. ? Many of us have read it, I know what InControl is saying but he's saying that as a beneficiary of the pro scene. I still choose to contact Razer. Good for you, destroy the scene you invested so much time in so 'the man' doesn't get his paycheck What? You expect companies like CBS to actually broadcast games if the competitors use derogatory, inflammatory and racist language? As I said earlier, if people want SC2 to grow bigger (eg. being on television), they have to accept that some acts (eg. racist remarks) are simply unacceptable. People are watching him play starcraft 2 from his HOUSE. Even if CBS aired Starcraft 2 games on tv, they sure as hell wouldn't be showing players' streaming from their home. In tournaments, we all know that players are strictly moderated and will never use words like Destiny and other players do while on the spot. He's inviting you into his personal life of starcraft, dont fucking tell him how he should act within his own fucking house. Besides, Destiny is a streamer, not a competitor, he has even fucking said it in interviews. Saying he shouldnt use WORDS that people find offensive is ridiculous and contacting sponsors and his team would be like contacting a movie production agency to sue a writer for using such WORDS. I absolutely love the Starcraft 2 community, but i must regrettably say that some people truly overestimate the gravity of the scene to think that one popular figure saying "nigger" or "gook" would make the scene collapse. Who the fuck wants a scene that only boasts skilled computer players and a lack of personality? Shit like this is necessary in every community (e-sports, sports) to encourage people to be themselves, and not change their image just so a few "progressives" wont get offended. Note to the guy i quoted, this isnt a personal rebuttal or disagreement, i just felt my post was relevant with yours. no hard feelings dood! thanks! Ragados
There are plenty of people who are skilled at this game and have entertaining/controversial personalities - look at Naniwa. When Destiny streams from his home, he does so with his sponsors logos pasted all over his stream, he makes money off the people who he invites into his personal starcraft life. If people want him to stop doing this shit, stop watching him. I think the most disappointing thing here to some extent is people would rather watch players like Destiny rage rather than support better progamers who could really go places with the contracts/viewers Destiny gets. If you want to understand why the foreign scene isn't as good as the Korean scene it's because people like Destiny can make a living off of streaming/practicing while many other talented players can't because they don't act like a child when they lose (ie: they have the right attitude about learning to get better).
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Holytornados, you have made an excellent post. Thanks for restoring a huge part of my faith in humanity.
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The community should really just stop thinking that they know everything that needs to happen for eSports to grow. More than half the post in this thread boil down to:
a) eSports will never grow if there is a lack of professionalism in any facet of its scope
b) Throwing tantrums, emailing sponsors asking them to pull funding over situations like this hurts esports because sponsors are being encourage from the community not to support a certain team/player.
Seems to me these issues are completely black/white for every single person posting, but little evidence is given of a person's credentials when they state their opinion - more often then not, they jump to the last page, read the most recent posts, then say their black or white opinion on the issue and leave the thread. I'm not a sponsor, I have no education in business, and I have no understanding of the scope of the eSports/SC2 scene at this time. We all have our opinions. The only people the sponsors are going to be hearing from are the vocal people who want to slay Destiny's spot in the community and open it up for some other guy.
The way I see it (although I'm sure nobody gives a shit), players should have a place where they can escape from such stresses of the pro scene. While a stream is technically part of the public domain, it is still for the personal use for the streamer, and they should be able to call more of the shots - not the community. If something seriously outrageous is said, the community can bring it to light, but is in no place to discuss the ramifications - that's for the team and the player to talk out.
I'll also note that before connecting to the stream on Twitch TV, it says: CONTENTS MAY BE INAPPROPRIATE.
THERE'S A FREAKING WARNING. How else can a streamer convey this to the community? And when can a player, who wants to express a more casual form of themselves, do so more effectively than on their personal stream?
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On May 02 2012 05:37 LarJarsE wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:35 schimmetje wrote:
I think we should only let nice people play this game. Give out some sort of license maybe and make a thread to list things that people can talk about. And then if someone doesn't adhere to the list of things we like, we can go to their homes and lynch them. Right?
No I don't think it's necessary language but Christ we're going a little overboard with this shit. And frankly, doing that makes us a much larger liability to the scene. It is ass backwards to state that part of the TL community is against hateful slurs, is actually a liability to the scene.
I always wonder when someone says something like this, does it make you feel like you said something particularly deep? Because if feels like it should, but you didn't really. For one thing because I never stated that.
But I wonder what sponsors notice more, the occassional lone person being a dick or the huge billion page outcry on here and hatedit every other week. Hmm. It is a mystery.
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On May 02 2012 05:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:37 Silvertine wrote:On May 02 2012 05:30 Bigtony wrote:
I'm of the opinion that words are words. A word cannot be "racist." People are racist. I'm of the opinion that words are words. A word cannot be "antiquated". People are antiquated. Your logic is basically white noise, it could used to state anything. And yet he's right. Guns don't kill people. People kill people.
What are you talking about? That is probably the tenth post you've made in this thread which hasn't made a lick of sense.
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I dont know about QxG punishing him for things like that. They might just look the other way. A decent way to may be penalize him is take his stream down from featured list for a few days (depending on how the admins at TL think about it). Its just a suggestion. I think TL should be able to punish him in some way. But then its an opinion from a person, I dont know if I should add a poll about it or not..But may be, like Destiny says, "Beta Mode people"...I think he should go Beta for sometime.. I am not taking anything away from him, he is a good player and entertainer, but everything needs to have limits. Mods please let me know if I said something wrong! 
EDIT: Should be "Punishment"
Poll: Should Destiny be de-featured for some days as a punishement?No (83) 68% Yes (37) 30% Cannot Say (2) 2% 122 total votes Your vote: Should Destiny be de-featured for some days as a punishement? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
(Vote): Cannot Say
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On May 02 2012 05:39 YouMake wrote:
Im just impressed this was posted today and has already generated 96 pages of replies. Destiny may never win any notable tournaments but hes up there in popularity.
Yeah the bronze guys need someone to adore even if he insults them. Why u give a fuck guys so many of the "not top tier full time pros" are extremly bad mannered so who cares.
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On May 02 2012 05:39 Zyphen wrote:
The people suggesting emailing of sponsors have the right idea. I just sent one in. The more you read threads like this, the more you realize how few people's minds will change. If this was an isolated incident, I wouldn't care enough to go the extra step (a whole 5 minutes to draft a letter). But as somebody pointed out, Destiny has been doing this for over a year now (as I noted in my letter) and his team doesn't seem to care enough about his behavior. People are free to vote with their dollars and I'm glad I saw all the contact info being passed out as a concrete portion of this discussion.
Oh, and us keyboard warriors don't need to save Riwanda to not be hypocrits. I'm fine with doing my small part. Doing nothing vs saving the world is a false dichotomy. I stood up for my friend when he got accosted by some drunk racist jerk in Baltimore when we were hailing a cab. I don't need to join Amnesty International and I doubt they'd bother to clean up pro gaming anyways. I'm fine with picking up trash in my own neighborhood and feeling good about it.
Why would you email the sponsor so quickly? Quantic hasn't even gotten a chance to respond yet. Give them a fucking day or two.
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To be honest, I think the gaming scene as with all competitive games, sports etc. needs a few villains. It adds to the competition. And while Destiny isn't really a bad dude, he has the attitude of he will do whatever the hell he wants and say what he wants even if its offensive. He sort of a villain in that regard. Or rather a bad boy kind of like Idra. I would certainly not say the disrespectful things that he does, but Im a different player than him.
This game needs different types of players.
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On May 02 2012 05:42 Silvertine wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 02 2012 05:37 Silvertine wrote:On May 02 2012 05:30 Bigtony wrote:
I'm of the opinion that words are words. A word cannot be "racist." People are racist. I'm of the opinion that words are words. A word cannot be "antiquated". People are antiquated. Your logic is basically white noise, it could used to state anything. And yet he's right. Guns don't kill people. People kill people. What are you talking about? That is probably the tenth post you've made in this thread which hasn't made a lick of sense.
Words don't make you a racist. Being prejudiced against another race makes you racist. The former doesn't imply the latter.
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On May 02 2012 05:23 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:21 Denzil wrote:On May 02 2012 05:20 KimJongChill wrote:
I'm Korean and not bothered by this at all. Huge Destiny fan, always will be. It's hardly derogatory, and it just sounds like a silly racial slur that somebody tried way too hard to come up with. Jesus christ, haven't we gone over this shit before guys? Of course we have but this is a cycle and cycles always repeat. See you back here next thread I guess I always find it amusing that it's white, middle-class people who are offended the most by this so-called "hate speech," rather than, you know, the actual group it's supposedly hateful of.
Why is this amusing? If it wasn't for white middle class people getting offended during the 50s and 60s, we would not have had the civil rights movement in the USA. Have you never stood up for or know someone that has stood up for someone being harassed for being gay or of a certain race? I'm not surprised by people who are Asian/Black/Gay who are actually offended by these remarks to not want to publicly out themselves in a community that seems to be ok with it. Why would you do such a think and subject yourself to more harassment and bullying?
I thank God every day for middle-class white Americans who do take offense, because if it wasn't for them I probably wouldn't be where I am today.
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I don't think this kind of language, not used in a bad joke or something like that, does have its place in something that want to be called "professional" or "sport".
I just hope he apologies for this.
This is another reason why I believe this game and community is not mature enough to go "big"
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On May 02 2012 05:43 jnsjr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:23 Shiori wrote:On May 02 2012 05:21 Denzil wrote:On May 02 2012 05:20 KimJongChill wrote:
I'm Korean and not bothered by this at all. Huge Destiny fan, always will be. It's hardly derogatory, and it just sounds like a silly racial slur that somebody tried way too hard to come up with. Jesus christ, haven't we gone over this shit before guys? Of course we have but this is a cycle and cycles always repeat. See you back here next thread I guess I always find it amusing that it's white, middle-class people who are offended the most by this so-called "hate speech," rather than, you know, the actual group it's supposedly hateful of. Why is this amusing? If it wasn't for white middle class people getting offended during the 50s and 60s, we would not have had the civil rights movement in the USA. Have you never stood up for or know someone that has stood up for someone being harassed for being gay or of a certain race? I'm not surprised by people who are Asian/Black/Gay who are actually offended by these remarks to not want to publicly out themselves in a community that seems to be ok with it. Why would you do such a think and subject yourself to more harassment and bullying? I thank God every day for middle-class white Americans who do take offense, because if it wasn't for them I probably wouldn't be where I am today.
Lmao, talk about hyperbole.
When pretty much every person who's actually Asian is coming forward and saying 'yo, this isn't a big deal,' then no, I don't think it's because they're terrified of being attacked, I think it's because they actually don't give a shit.
Also, I'm pretty sure the civil rights movement
a) included a hell of a lot of Black people (not to mention it was led by them)
and
b) was about a lot more than some random guy in his house saying the word 'nigger.'
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On May 02 2012 05:42 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:42 Silvertine wrote:On May 02 2012 05:39 DarkLordOlli wrote:On May 02 2012 05:37 Silvertine wrote:On May 02 2012 05:30 Bigtony wrote:
I'm of the opinion that words are words. A word cannot be "racist." People are racist. I'm of the opinion that words are words. A word cannot be "antiquated". People are antiquated. Your logic is basically white noise, it could used to state anything. And yet he's right. Guns don't kill people. People kill people. What are you talking about? That is probably the tenth post you've made in this thread which hasn't made a lick of sense. Words don't make you a racist. Being prejudiced against another race makes you racist. The former doesn't imply the latter.
All we can see is your words. I cannot know your inner thoughts and its logically fallacious to assume that, if you use racist language, you are anything BUT a racist.
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EPT
