On May 02 2012 01:47 intrigue wrote: while i think it's more dumb than anything else to use racist terms, i'm disappointed that we've already taken off to immediately writing to sponsors again. what the hell are you people thinking? at the very least, get another response from quantic or wait a few days.
i'm also disappointed that destiny, for all his "people skills", hasn't learned any PR from the orb situation. people seem to think every situation is one where they as a unique, proud individual is being threatened, when even a cookiecutter apology can go a long way. if not to the community, then to warden. at least nobody will be writing your sponsors, you know.
why is this community so stupid sometimes?
Sorry, "PR"? You want to talk about respect? How about treating a community of people like humans, and not a mindless hive-blob of blithering idiots waiting for you to appease them with hollow, empty, meaningless phrases that everyone finds kosher?
You may not like what I have to say, but I will go down in flames screaming nigger/gook/spick/faggot/queer before I ever release a pointless cookie-cutter apology. I'm honestly disgusted and disappointed that you, as a human being, find meaning in these bullshit PR moves that other people make.
I'm tired of public figures that stand for nothing, and instead merely try to act as a mirror, reflecting back onto other people whatever it is they want to see.
I'm disgusted and disappointed in you as a human being that you have no empathy for the people that your racial and hateful slurs affect.
How do you not know that just because you think its okay doesn't mean everyone else does? This isn't even about religion or free speech. Its about using words that you know hurt people just because you think they shouldn't hurt people. News to you, just because you think people should act a certain way doesn't mean they do.
I'm going to stop responding to thoughtless post like this until you respond to my questions earlier.
Tell me which words a person should/shouldn't be allowed to say, and then tell me why some groups of people are protected while others aren't.
Why do you have to say any of those words?
Quote from the above 2 minute clip - "Things not being necessary is what makes life interesting - the little extras in life."
Is he really talking about racial slurs here though? Isn't he really talking about the Carlin 7 dirty words?
I really don't get why people are getting their shotguns loaded every time Destiny acts the way he wants to. It's his stream, don't watch it if you don't like him, and he isn't really a public figure for the community. He's someone that just got a lot of attention because of his antics when he first started streaming. It's really mind boggling how people make a mountain out of a molehill.
On May 02 2012 02:00 intrigue wrote: guys, i'd like to let you know that i've suffered a bit in my life. that means i know what the world is like. i also never make mistakes, because, as i've mentioned, i've been through some hardship. this qualifies me to make sweeping social critiques that spans way beyond any of our lifetimes. fuck the empty media!
Never have I lacked enough palms for my face after reading a post. And this is coming from a TL mod...
On May 02 2012 02:31 vindKtiv wrote: I hope people hit up the sponsors till this e-sports bubble dies. Seriously, this bloated community is full of people who either can't grow a thick skin or who can't grow up enough to learn acceptable human interaction.
Destiny: Grow up. I thought I was done with all this tough guy stuff in high school. If you can't live in an adult world where you need to take responsibility for the thing that you say, then you fully deserve any repercussions you receive at the end of this whole fiasco.
Destiny-Haters: Grow a thicker skin. Go out in the world and learn how to deal with assholes. They exist, and if you act like this every time you meet one you probably won't last long. Get out of your little bubble and learn to accept the fact that not everyone is going to be as politically correct as you want them to be.
I've never seen so much shit flung over a non-issue. I love StarCraft, but this thread is downright disgusting.
The most realistic and reasonable post in this thread, cheers! (besides Incontrol)
You know what fuck sponsors I went straight to the top and emailed Barack Obama. He is black so I'm sure he will understand the severity of the situation. I expect Destiny to be taken out by CIA assassins any minute now, thus eradicating racism in our community of almost exclusivley middle class white people.
I had a feeling this would happen again after the Orb incident. Now some bastard is going to report to quantic's sponsors. I seriously hope that Quantic acts quick, because even though most of us aren't too upset by Destiny's usual personality, we all know by now how easy it is to just contact the sponsor and make a complaint. Sponsors wouldn't want to see their product being represented by racial slurs in anyway.
On May 02 2012 01:52 iNcontroL wrote: mailing sponsors instead of the team is so completely fucked up and horrible.
mail the SHIT out of quantic. If they don't do anything or say anything for a few weeks.. make threads, tweet, write more letters to quantic.. but by no means at all should you mail sponsors with things like that.
Razer sponsors a lot more than just destiny or even quantic.. by one man's error you are potentially making it worse for a LOT of people.
Even if you disagree with what I said you could probably agree that quantic deserves a chance to respond before you start emailing sponsors.
Debating whether we should be emailing sponsors is sort of moot at this point. You're right - it's dumb (and I say this as someone who really thinks we should have no tolerance for this stuff). But it's going to happen. In society at large, anyone who sponsors someone who spouts racial slurs constantly gets angry email. The only way to avoid this is to keep the community so small and marginal as to have a whole different social norm than the rest of society, and I don't think any of us want that.
So sponsors will get emailed. Knowing this, we should be talking about as a community not how to make sure that racial slurs don't lead to sponsor emails, but how to stop the racial slurs.
And really, it's sort of stupid to say "give Quantic a chance to respond". With Orb, it was at least conceivable that EG didn't know about the fact that he still said stuff like this. Destiny is famous for it. Quantic knows perfectly well he says this stuff, and they've known it for months. It's not like this should take them by surprise or they had no chance to act first.
No it isn't moot.. people hear reasons not to do things and sometimes don't do things they otherwise would.
And no the "give quantic a chance" thing isn't dumb. It's the most reasonable response to this situation. yes Quantic knew that Destiny was an opinionated and sometimes controversial player but they also knew he was an intelligent human being who could be reasoned with. Just because Destiny has said some fringe shit in the past doesn't mean he should be untouchable by a team or that once a team does grab him you (the community) now have a free license to act as drastic as you like because WELL DESTINY IS PRONE TO DO STUFF. Come on man? You are literally arguing in defense of being a mob of pitchfork people trying to do the most damage possible. I am arguing for people to go through proper channels and protect that which we love.
Get really tired when people assume "you are hurting esports" isn't a real possibility. A lot of you are either very young or incredibly under educated on esports to think we are untouchable. Entire fucking communities have died. Leagues have collapsed and sponsors have walked away never to come back. This shit does happen. Why flirt with it?
I think emailing sponsors is silly, but reading your post I'm not sure you regularly watch Destiny's stream. He use racial and homophobic slurs daily. And if Quantic pays the slightest modicum of attention to him, they know this. So, if a person does feel strongly about Destiny's language, they probably also disagree with Quantic's tacit encouragement.
As for Destiny, I'd tell him he's idiot, but he's not. One the one hand, there's no reason to use racial slurs. Even if society does arbitrarily discriminate as to what words are acceptable, none of the words being censored are all that useful. If I can't call someone a gook after losing a computer game, what's lost?
So, why should Destiny fight for something worthless? Well, it's part of who he is, and why people find him interesting. In fact, defending himself stridently is part of that too. Now, I doubt he's some conniving PT Barnum, but on some level I'd wager he recognizes "Destiny being Destiny" is a good thing for Destiny.
because what you regard as worthless isn't really worthless. see the above video of the stephen fry on swearing.
I think it is totally right to defend for himself and for people who understand his point to defend him. He isn't a racist, and just using those words doesn't make him a racist, especially when he isn't directing it to a specific group of people that the racist term applies to. IF he was to say "nigga" to me, I don't give a damn because I am not a Black ethic group. IF he was to say "chink" to me but he doesn't know I am chinese, why would I be bothered? But either way, I have my mature language filter on, so I probably not even gonna know what he said.
If these words are so forbidden then we would be seeing censorship and not words like "nigga", "fuck" still exist in pop songs.
On May 02 2012 02:27 iNcontroL wrote: Perhaps a bit of analysis that is missing should be laid out.. emailing sponsors is an act of attrition. This time around, maybe there isn't much damage. Maybe it doesn't really effect how they work within SC2. But if we make this a force of habit, if we do this each time we are upset.. it grows and becomes a huge issue. We need to stop doing this because we are toying with shit we don't see and we are messing with massively important companies.
There are other ways of protesting issues. Mail the team, post on the forums, tweet, actively stop watching functions.. etc etc.. be responsible. We don't need to throw shit at the top of the pyramid hoping it will trickle down and hit the guys on the bottom. Throw shit at the guys doing it! Go to those responsible directly: the team!
And when the team remains silent and the player sits in a thread vehemently defending his actions? This behavior did not come out of the blue. This is not something new for Quantic. I had no intention of emailing Razer until QxGDestiny decided that it was prudent to defend his actions in this thread. I am now SERIOUSLY reconsidering that.
People shouldn't do what they aren't willing to defend.
There is nothing wrong with Destiny defending behavior on his personal steam that he's not embarrassed about, and if he was embarrassed, why do it in the first place?
On May 02 2012 02:27 iNcontroL wrote: Perhaps a bit of analysis that is missing should be laid out.. emailing sponsors is an act of attrition. This time around, maybe there isn't much damage. Maybe it doesn't really effect how they work within SC2. But if we make this a force of habit, if we do this each time we are upset.. it grows and becomes a huge issue. We need to stop doing this because we are toying with shit we don't see and we are messing with massively important companies.
There are other ways of protesting issues. Mail the team, post on the forums, tweet, actively stop watching functions.. etc etc.. be responsible. We don't need to throw shit at the top of the pyramid hoping it will trickle down and hit the guys on the bottom. Throw shit at the guys doing it! Go to those responsible directly: the team!
That's fair. I'd suggest though that this, and actions like it, already do irreparable damage to the community. It's not a minor issue, and so a major response isn't totally unwarranted. I want E-sports to succeed (you're obviously more committed and involved), but only if hate has no place within it. No place at all. Racism, hate and bigotry are among the worst the internet has to offer, and it's widely accepted. That's disgraceful, and hurts everyone associated with E-sports, even fans. I refuse to be associated with or complicit to such behavior. I haven't emailed Razer, yet, for the reasons you outlined. But I'm certainly willing.
Mailing sponsors over something like this without giving Quantic the time to make a statement... Destiny and his nublets talking shit at everything and everybody with an opinion...
On May 01 2012 22:16 WardenSC wrote: I was playing vs QuanticDestiny a few hours ago where he was calling me a "gook" and a bunch of offensive words. Now I understand that one may get frustrated if he/she loses in a game (I've been there myself). I also understand that it is his stream and he may say that he can do whatever the hell he wants in his stream. However, he stands now as a "community figure" who has the reach to influence thousands of viewers daily and can skew the public's view of sc2 community in an extremely negative direction.
Isn't it reasonable to expect a level of professionalism from a player that plays on a professional team? I just don't think spurting out racial slurs left and right in front of a large audience is why Quantic sponsors Destiny to market their team.
As a note, I don't think QuanticDestiny is a true racist. However, I do believe that ignorance towards his excessive use of racial slurs would eventually lead to tolerance within the community and that would be a very dangerous outcome. + Show Spoiler +
There are already 30+ pages of responses in this thread and it would be too hard to read everything (I doubt there are more of a handful of the posts worth reading), so I'm just going to respond to the OP.
Your main point is that the use of the racial slurs is going to make the community look bad, which will be bad for the community (sponsors and all that jazz).
There are several questions that come to mind when I read the OP. Where is the real problem? It's possible to say things much more offensive than what Destiny says without using a single racial slur. In fact it would probably be more offensive.
Do you think that the real problems is that he's using racial slurs (or the term autistic?)? Would you rather be insulted in without certain words? At the end of the day, words are nothing more than tools to be used to get a point across. It's probably more preferable to pay closer attention to what your interlocutor wants to you to understand rather than the words he uses.
You said yourself that you don't think Destiny is racist. He's not disrespecting you for being Asian, he's being disrespectful for your play. Albeit, using colorful terms (to put it diplomatically). But if the message he had given you wouldn't have been a problem if he had used other words, then there shouldn't be a problem at all.
If the sponsors wants Destiny to stop using certain terms because they're afraid of their image, it's their call to do so. But they're the only ones who are really "allowed" to have an issue with this.
I have purchased many Razer products over the last several years, and am glad that some of my money has been spent on the Starcraft 2 community. However, I am disgusted by the behaviour of one of the teams you sponsor, Quantic Gaming.
Steven "Destiny" Bonnell, a member of Quantic Gaming, is a popular entertainer known for his angry outbursts. He frequently hurls racist abuse on his stream, an example of which can be found at http://i.imgur.com/iaSWu.jpg
This behaviour is unacceptable. Bonnell was dropped from his previous team, Complexity Gaming, for this behaviour, and Quantic Gaming signed him up with full knowledge of this.
I will not purchase any more products from Razer, and will encourage my friends to not purchase any products from Razer, until Razer ceases sponsorship of Steven Bonnell, either through his dropping by Quantic Gaming, or a cessation of sponsorship for Quantic Gaming as a whole.
(Sign here)
4. Fill in your name and email, and click submit
does anyone else think that this is unreasonable or this guy has not read a single thing in this thread
The discussion is useless in my opinion. Even if it's "not that bad" because "those words lost their meaning" and all of those usual copouts, he still shouldn't behave like that while streaming, there's just no way around it. People denying that are delusional. At the very least he is representing his team and his sponsors, amongst other things.
On May 01 2012 22:16 WardenSC wrote: I was playing vs QuanticDestiny a few hours ago where he was calling me a "gook" and a bunch of offensive words. Now I understand that one may get frustrated if he/she loses in a game (I've been there myself). I also understand that it is his stream and he may say that he can do whatever the hell he wants in his stream. However, he stands now as a "community figure" who has the reach to influence thousands of viewers daily and can skew the public's view of sc2 community in an extremely negative direction.
Isn't it reasonable to expect a level of professionalism from a player that plays on a professional team? I just don't think spurting out racial slurs left and right in front of a large audience is why Quantic sponsors Destiny to market their team.
As a note, I don't think QuanticDestiny is a true racist. However, I do believe that ignorance towards his excessive use of racial slurs would eventually lead to tolerance within the community and that would be a very dangerous outcome.
I think the real issue here is what started this. You. Specifically, you being terrible started this. I want destiny to make a topic calling out the issue of cheesing players and how being garbage is a tolerated thing in this community. Imagine, for a second, if you didn't cheese destiny. All of a sudden, there's no racial slur being thrown around! All of a sudden you can't make this awful topic!
Why is this? Because cheesing is a form of insult to most players. Even if you win, knowing that you could potentially lose to some awful player doing a skill less build is angering to most of the people who play this game. Bad players winning games by doing skill less strategies is the biggest problem this game has and is the cause for so many people hating this game.
I dream of a world where I don't have to deal with skill less players doing skill less builds while still having a decent chance at beating me.
I dream of a world where cheesers don't act surprised or offended when someone bms them for being complete garbage.
I dream of a lactose intolerant world.
P.S. I particularly enjoyed that screenshot. 1 base @ 15 minutes, proxy 2 port (you're known for it), the interrupting KOREAN gg despite you being an english speaker, and destiny not being korean.... not to mention while he's clearly about to bm you for being on one base for 15 minutes. It's like you WANTED this to happen, just so you could post this god awful thread. You should be banned from this forum for being such a faggot.
youre just trolling right? please tell me youre not for real
Slurs are considered unacceptable because of societal convention.
If the same is true about bad mannered actions and play in the community, shouldn't this bm cheeser (who only seems to have made this thread for the trouble it has caused) receive the same?
Only if you assume that all judgments of unacceptability are created equal.
I judge slavery unacceptable. I judge rape unacceptable. I judge the public use of racial slurs unacceptable. I judge offensive GGs unacceptable. Simply because I have the same general type of judgment in all of these cases does not mean that they all merit the same response.
Thank you Destiny, keep being yourself and dont let haters change you. Its rare to see people actually saying what they want to say (and even if this is some kind of ladder rage which doesnt mean anything, I like you for being you).
On May 02 2012 02:27 iNcontroL wrote: Perhaps a bit of analysis that is missing should be laid out.. emailing sponsors is an act of attrition. This time around, maybe there isn't much damage. Maybe it doesn't really effect how they work within SC2. But if we make this a force of habit, if we do this each time we are upset.. it grows and becomes a huge issue. We need to stop doing this because we are toying with shit we don't see and we are messing with massively important companies.
There are other ways of protesting issues. Mail the team, post on the forums, tweet, actively stop watching functions.. etc etc.. be responsible. We don't need to throw shit at the top of the pyramid hoping it will trickle down and hit the guys on the bottom. Throw shit at the guys doing it! Go to those responsible directly: the team!
The order is: you critize the player -> doesn't care you tell the team -> doesn't care you tell the sponsors -> actual stage
Nothing wrong with it tbh
1. May or may not have an effect upon the player. 2. May or may not have an effect upon the team. 3. May or may not have an effect upon the whole esports scene evolving around SC2.
There's a pretty big bridge right there from 2. to 3. that should not be crossed. At least not with these trivial reasons.
iNcontrol, I've been a fan of yours for as long as I've been a fan of Starcraft. Though I must say with each repetitious garbage shit post you make I'm become less and less of a fan. You aren't the Jesus Christ of Starcraft 2, you are the Geoff Robinson of Starcraft 2.
I agree with Incontrol re how people should protest or not.
Destiny seems like a nice enough chap however his behaviour ( swearing etc) just becomes boring after a while and consequently I have stopped watching his stream. There is so much choice now and others that are offended or like me just bored should do the same.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/y8F8n.jpg)
