EPTBisu as terran in SC2 ? - Page 17
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Caphe
Vietnam10817 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On April 23 2012 02:05 Xiphos wrote: what about dem siege tanks? they are still pretty useful in the sequel. Atleast in TvP, mass tank is only situationally better than bio. | ||
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Dattish
Sweden6297 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On April 23 2012 02:13 Antisocialmunky wrote: Atleast in TvP, mass tank is only situationally better than bio. Oh well, I am still using the mass marines into if I see Collusus being made, then its time for me to macro up some Siege Tanks and if he is going for a more HT/Mothership composition, I am teching up to Ghost for EMP. Got me pretty far on the ladder just with good scanning and macro. | ||
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Deleted User 101379
4849 Posts
On April 23 2012 02:13 Antisocialmunky wrote: Atleast in TvP, mass tank is only situationally better than bio. And Protoss can just build 1 immortal and kill a hundred tanks (slightly exaggerated) :p Sad to see that the switch seems to be very close but, well, maybe the BW pros will bring SC2 forward with new strategies and impressive mechanics. Still, i won't be disappointed if some new sponsor came up and gave BW just a year more. | ||
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Applesqt
United States206 Posts
On April 23 2012 02:29 Morfildur wrote: And Protoss can just build 1 immortal and kill a hundred tanks (slightly exaggerated) :p Sad to see that the switch seems to be very close but, well, maybe the BW pros will bring SC2 forward with new strategies and impressive mechanics. Still, i won't be disappointed if some new sponsor came up and gave BW just a year more. 1 immortal beats 3 sieged tanks  | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
On April 22 2012 20:04 Plexa wrote: Yes this is very true. Protoss in SC2 feels much more like Terran in SC1 oddly enough. Only in TvP... I'm sure mech styles will be viable in TvP in future patches/expansions. MKP crushed HuK with Mech (although there is a skill gap)at MLG Spring Arena #1 this weekend, showcasing a much more refined TvP mech build. | ||
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2013 Posts
On April 23 2012 05:48 Tump wrote: Only in TvP... I'm sure mech styles will be viable in TvP in future patches/expansions. MKP crushed HuK with Mech (although there is a skill gap)at MLG Spring Arena #1 this weekend, showcasing a much more refined TvP mech build. Also in theory, Blizz planning to buff mech somehow in HotS | ||
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B.I.G.
3251 Posts
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On April 22 2012 21:20 Kyrillion wrote: Of course skill ceiling is something absolute. A game has a high skill ceiling if one has to invest a lot of time and effort in order to attain a high level. It is low if mastering it (that is, not playing perfectly but almost) does not require a lot of time and effort. Imagine DOTA were the only video game left in the world, would it all of a sudden stop being a low-skill ceiling game ? It wouldn't. And the reason why your reasoning does not work is that the skill ceiling of a game is per se considered from a human point of view. We could call a wall above 2 meters high, and below 1,5 m low and that would sound absurd as such, why does the change occur around 2m indeed ; but it is implied it's regarded from a human perspective. The same goes for games, all their features revolve around human ability. But DoTA would stop being considered a low skill ceiling game, the only reason its considered low is when it is compared to BW (and SC2 players who have no clue about DoTA and think it is the same as LoL). DoTA requires a lot of skill, I don't think you give it enough credit. Mechanical skill makes a much bigger difference in DoTA than in SC2, in DoTA (pub) you can carry a whole team with one good player (unlike LoL) even if the rest of his team sucks, if SC2 had the same skill ceiling you should be able to potentially win the game by micro-ing a single 75 mineral unit, such as the vulture, like you could in BW. In SC2 you can't use a colossus drop to both kill all the workers and then pick it back up to defend against a back stab, or defend against infinite slow-lings while killing 100 workers with a hellion, there is no such unit in SC2. that's why the skill ceiling is considered "low". The game relies too much on gamesense, macro and timing, which would be considered skill, but it is not factored in what we call "skill ceiling" (I agree its a terribly defined word), which makes the game boring. A lot of BW units were capable of being like DoTA like hero units and getting 40 kills with one unit, and still allowed unparalleled depth of strategy at the same time. That is what SC2 is missing. In the true definition of the word, when we consider skill in the way we have defined it (the amount of leverage you can achieve through pure mechanics), DoTA has a higher skill ceiling than SC2. A good DoTA player can achieve much more mechanical game-winning plays over a bad player, than an SC2 player can. | ||
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
On April 23 2012 12:22 sluggaslamoo wrote: But DoTA would stop being considered a low skill ceiling game, the only reason its considered low is when it is compared to BW (and SC2 players who have no clue about DoTA and think it is the same as LoL). DoTA requires a lot of skill, I don't think you give it enough credit. Mechanical skill makes a much bigger difference in DoTA than in SC2, in DoTA (pub) you can carry a whole team with one good player (unlike LoL) even if the rest of his team sucks, if SC2 had the same skill ceiling you should be able to potentially win the game by micro-ing a single 75 mineral unit, such as the vulture, like you could in BW. In SC2 you can't use a colossus drop to both kill all the workers and then pick it back up to defend against a back stab, or defend against infinite slow-lings while killing 100 workers with a hellion, there is no such unit in SC2. that's why the skill ceiling is considered "low". The game relies too much on gamesense, macro and timing, which would be considered skill, but it is not factored in what we call "skill ceiling" (I agree its a terribly defined word), which makes the game boring. A lot of BW units were capable of being like DoTA like hero units and getting 40 kills with one unit, and still allowed unparalleled depth of strategy at the same time. That is what SC2 is missing. In the true definition of the word, when we consider skill in the way we have defined it (the amount of leverage you can achieve through pure mechanics), DoTA has a higher skill ceiling than SC2. A good DoTA player can achieve much more mechanical game-winning plays over a bad player, than an SC2 player can. I'm sorry, but that logic is REALLY, really bad. Micro is not the only mechanical aspect, there is multitask and macro as well in both BW and sc2. Skill is NOT micro, micro is a PART of skill, as is gamesense, macro, multitask, timings, etc. Someone like Goody (terrible macro/micro/multitask) is more skilled than your average NA/EU semi-pro, even though his mechanics are not as good. And even if you're just talking about mechanical skill... f someone like MVP plays against your average high-masters KR/most KR gms he ca just drop them and kill them with very little strategy. I've seen it done when he was streaming, he literally killed "pro" players with 2 medivacs pretty consistently. Bomber did it by just macroing and a-moving marines over KR masters players, and does it to kr gms with just marine micro+macro and very little strategy. Micro is not the only mechanical aspect in sc2/bw and that is why they are both mechanically harder than dota (unless you have shit micro and god-like macro/multitask); you don't have to worry about macro or multitask (depending on hero, but still not as much as either RTS) in dota. With that being said, there definitely need to be more marines+medivacs (a-movable for bronzies, but really high levels of micro/multi-task at higher levels) and less roaches. It's a long-shot, but I'm really hoping that somehow we can get some coaches+players working on the game with Blizzard. It'd be good for the game and it'd definitely get me to love Blizzard more, but I doubt the community could have enough pull to make that happen. | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
I'll just leave this here | ||
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Sawamura
Malaysia7602 Posts
A lot of BW units were capable of being like DoTA like hero units and getting 40 kills with one unit, and still allowed unparalleled depth of strategy at the same time. That is what SC2 is missing. Fantasy pimp-est play come in to my mind when you put it that way .... | ||
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Duka08
3391 Posts
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sc14s
United States5052 Posts
On April 23 2012 06:02 Darksoldierr wrote: Also in theory, Blizz planning to buff mech somehow in HotS hellions morphing into firebats essentially makes mech viable to tank chargelots for tanks which was largely the issue for getting tanks in the current metagame. | ||
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puppykiller
United States3137 Posts
On April 23 2012 02:29 Xiphos wrote: Oh well, I am still using the mass marines into if I see Collusus being made, then its time for me to macro up some Siege Tanks and if he is going for a more HT/Mothership composition, I am teching up to Ghost for EMP. Got me pretty far on the ladder just with good scanning and macro. Um I'm not sure why you think this is relevant. Here in the BW section we only consider progames valid to analyze when we are assessing how a race plays. | ||
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sc14s
United States5052 Posts
On April 23 2012 13:25 ArvickHero wrote: don't be trashin on DOTA, DOTA is fuckin sick I'll just leave this here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qe99ihqcDZc&ob=av3e eh that wasn't bad but i prefer other highlight vids xD for example is pretty amazing. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On April 23 2012 12:47 Skwid1g wrote: I'm sorry, but that logic is REALLY, really bad. Micro is not the only mechanical aspect, there is multitask and macro as well in both BW and sc2. Skill is NOT micro, micro is a PART of skill, as is gamesense, macro, multitask, timings, etc. Someone like Goody (terrible macro/micro/multitask) is more skilled than your average NA/EU semi-pro, even though his mechanics are not as good. And even if you're just talking about mechanical skill... f someone like MVP plays against your average high-masters KR/most KR gms he ca just drop them and kill them with very little strategy. I've seen it done when he was streaming, he literally killed "pro" players with 2 medivacs pretty consistently. Bomber did it by just macroing and a-moving marines over KR masters players, and does it to kr gms with just marine micro+macro and very little strategy. Micro is not the only mechanical aspect in sc2/bw and that is why they are both mechanically harder than dota (unless you have shit micro and god-like macro/multitask); you don't have to worry about macro or multitask (depending on hero, but still not as much as either RTS) in dota. With that being said, there definitely need to be more marines+medivacs (a-movable for bronzies, but really high levels of micro/multi-task at higher levels) and less roaches. It's a long-shot, but I'm really hoping that somehow we can get some coaches+players working on the game with Blizzard. It'd be good for the game and it'd definitely get me to love Blizzard more, but I doubt the community could have enough pull to make that happen. I'm sorry, but that logic is REALLY, really bad. Micro is not the only mechanical aspect, there is multitask and macro as well in both BW and sc2. Skill is NOT micro, micro is a PART of skill, as is gamesense, macro, multitask, timings, etc. Someone like Goody (terrible macro/micro/multitask) is more skilled than your average NA/EU semi-pro, even though his mechanics are not as good. Its not my logic, I have huge problem with the term "skill ceiling" too, I was merely explaining that is how everyone uses the term. So yes, in the sense of the term, Goody would have less skill than a mechanical GM player. Who cares? Lets not argue semantics, and instead argue the actual point of the issue. Also try farming 3 lanes and creeps at the same time with geomancer and then tell me DoTA has no multitask.  f someone like MVP plays against your average high-masters KR/most KR gms he ca just drop them and kill them with very little strategy I've gotten a 20 kill tank against a gold player before by dropping and lifting a siege tank with a medivac. Doesn't mean shit, if I vsed someone my level that wouldn't be possible, that's the issue here. There is no such unit in SC2, and part of that problem is the fan-base. Imagine if a single hellion could kite speedlings on creep all day every day, or a colossus could wipe a whole base of probes in a single shot, there would be a public outcry. With pure "skill" (micro accompanied by split-second tactics), we can win games against seemingly insurmountable odds. Time and time again, BW players will snatch games from the jaws of defeat with a flawless run of perfect micro-management executions. This is what creates the commonly described notion of "magic". This is possible in BW and it is possible in DoTA, it is almost impossible in SC2. @on the topic of mechanics when it comes to macro After playing BW and SC2, macro (in the sense of keeping minerals low by mass clicking on buildings) is not that much harder in BW than it is in SC2. Yes losing MBS would be a big deal for SC2 only players, but once you get used to clicking on buildings, it is really not that hard to do and then it becomes the same, which is just remembering when to macro. Just having MBS in SC2 wouldn't change much at the top level, a lot of top level players hotkey most of their production buildings anyway and select CC's/Scans using F-key->Mouse Click. Macro is so fast that the down-time created by not having MBS is almost nothing, Hiya can spam out vults faster without MBS than top SC2 players with. SC2 macro sucks because of the way macro mechanics are designed, how expensive, powerful and high supply units are (Artosis's main complaint about BW Protoss being EZ mode ), and how worthless of an investment a 4th base is unless you have mules (an issue 6m1hyg is meant to address).The reason BW players want MBS is probably because it is fun to do (believe me its actually fun when you get good at it), but also they can't figure out another reason why some players come out with huge armies and some don't. There is a tiny amount of difference in pure clicking macro between the top players. The reason Flash/Best gets so many units is they have perfected the timings of when to put down production buildings versus actual production, when to cut workers and expansion timings, which also makes a bigger difference in BW than it does in SC2. Although it is really cool watching FPVods of players clicking buildings and flicking screens at the speed of light, we are at a point where pure mechanical macro differences are negligible, it is arguable that the skill ceiling in that regard has already been reached. There is the Bisu exception, but like I said, he would be just like everyone else if MBS was implemented in SC2 in its current state. His talent comes from being able to ultilize his godlike multitask to execute guerilla tactics flawlessly, something which can't be done in SC2 to that much effect, except maybe multi-prong marine drops, which gets old really fast. As addressed above, we need units that, in Day[9]'s words, you can get 9x the effect out of rather than 1.5x. Until then Bisu and Jaedong's talents will be completely wasted if they switch. In this sense, the mechanics of macro are really negligible when it comes to the top level, macro differences are really defined by higher-level stuff that most people don't really see, and therefore it is not something we can consider when it comes to skill ceiling. | ||
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JerKy
Korea (South)3013 Posts
On April 21 2012 10:41 Harem wrote: You know that Bisu was originally Terran in BW right? (so was Best) Yeahhh Bisu was a terran who switched because he didnt have enough APM to play terran well MAYBE he'll switch in SC2... although its debatable because he was such an icon of PvZ in BW... | ||
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ppshchik
United States862 Posts
Then Bisu will switch to Protoss and can actually defend Shine's roach rushes due to Voidrays. | ||
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