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Patch 1.42 - review from a Protoss whiner
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/e/e4/ProtossIcon.png/290px-ProtossIcon.png) "A simple and fun way to view the new patch, and maybe whine about whiners"
First of all, this thread is not for balance whine, is a simple comment (even if it's a whine upon whiners) of the new patch and some review upon it.
Second, i'm not a whiner, but many people are, and this is annoying so i made this thread with this name to attract those damn whiners.
Well, i'm a High Diamond player, maybe a master if i did not have to study and work, but i'm pretty well for one who have almost no time to pratice. I like to learn, and i love watch tournaments. Above all, i have a girlfriend so my review must not be taken so seriously. And sorry for my english too, i've been praticing it.
The reason:
But why write up this article? what's the reason? Well the reason is quite simple, i hate haters, and i whine whiners.
I'll make it clear, the past 3 or 4 months terran and zerg players figured out protoss strategy entirely, and by entirely, i mean ENTIRELY. And They came up with some real nice strategies that made protoss struggle pretty bad. So after protoss loses so bad for so long they started to make clear that winning aganist some other races strategies were impossible. This long "whine" became clear with the Waxangel first public "whine" before GSL finals(i guess) and after this with the Sad Zealot blog (with members such as Naniwa)
And what most of some the Terran and zerg players said upon these facts?
-protoss have to stop being lazy and realise new strategies
-you have to play better, micro/macro better
-stop FFE
-use other units
and nonsense like that.
I'll say more about these real whiners later, for now let's focus in the new 1.42 patch.
1.42 patch:
+ Show Spoiler +PROTOSSForge![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/0/00/Forge.png) The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 1 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 200/200. The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 2 has been decreased to 225/225, down from 300/300. The cost of Upgrade Shields Level 3 has been decreased to 300/300, down from 400/400. The cost of Upgrade Ground Weapons Level 2 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 175/175. The cost of Upgrade Ground Weapons Level 3 has been decreased to 200/200, down from 250/250. The cost of Upgrade Ground Armor Level 2 has been decreased to 150/150, down from 175/175. The cost of Upgrade Ground Armor Level 3 has been decreased to 200/200, down from 250/250. TERRANGhost![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/a/ab/Ghost.gif) EMP radius has been decreased from 2 to 1.5
As we can see in this thread "1.4.2 Patch notes PTR" about the new patch.
i've seen a lots of whines from both terran and zerg players questioning why make these reductions on protoss upgrades? (i'll not speak of the Ghost EMP nerf, because it was needed, and i guess we'll see more nerf in this unit)
this chenge was needed because unlike terran and zerg protoss has more upgrades for his infantary then other races.
Be more specific !!
lets take an engeneering bay and a forge as exemples (i'll not take evo chamber because for these purposes it's the same as the eng bay).
If we sudelly put these two building to work and start an upgrade attack in both at same time, both terran and protoss will have plus 1 in his ground army at same time spending same amount of resouses and time, if we do this over again and again, both terran and protoss will have same upgrades spenting same time and resouces (570 seconds, 525 minerals, 525 gas) to made these changes. Normal from there but(a dramatic "but")...
if we start these tests over again but in the armour upgrades in the end of very first upgrade terran is ahead....wait ahead??? both have same upgrades 3/1 right (assumptioning that 3 upgrade attack and plus 1 armour is up)...NO WRONG.
lets take one marauder and one stalker, both are armored but lets see each unit:
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/f/f2/Marauder.png/190px-Marauder.png)
Marauder - 100 minerals, 25 gas
upgrades: 3 / 1 (+1 because it's armored)
life: 125 HP
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/thumb/4/4b/Stalker.png/197px-Stalker.png)
Stalker - 125 minerals, 50 gas
upgrades: 3 / 1 (+1 because it's armored) / 0
life: 80HP / 80 Shield
By the end of the plus one armour marauder has 125 HP of life covered with 2 armour.
By the end of the plus one armour Stalker has 80 HP of life covered with 2 armour.
EDIT FOR DUMB PEOPLE: i'm not comparing them as units or in a fight, the only purpose is to highlight HOW THE HELL Shields upgrades works and how it chages the gameflow. Making clear that a armour upgrade for toss is less cost effective as any race armour upgrade and some other stuff...damn
But that's not the worst part, the worst part is that his 80 initial "HP" of life is made of Shields that have NO upgrade - ZERO, so stalker is far behind when taking damage on shields but it returns to normal when taking damage from real HP.
So terran has a timing that he can exploit and actually have an advantage.
But why this advantage? actually protoss should have an advantage if he can actually make an attack that takes damage only in shield and run replanishing his shield "hp". But terran pro-players knowing this protoss advantage came with an interesting counter that is: leave my base ONLY when i have plus one attack or plus one attack plus one armour, and having some upgrade that makes harder protoss units fleeing from a fight. So usually terran makes his move with some upgrades and stimpack and/or concussive shells.
edit: actually Marauder is stronger then stalker 1 on 1 despite custing less in resources
Thus, using this strategy terran can "nullifly" that protoss shield advantage and put pressure abusing that protoss units are not so cost effective early on (in the push timing).
Continuing:
Well after the Armour upgrades, both terran and protoss ground units have 3/3 (attack/armour) upgrades, spenting exactly same amount of time and resources to make them. BUT (real sarcastic "but") by the end of these upgrades protoss is fairly behind when terran is at his full strength. WHY (real dumb "why")? again because of shields upgrades, it has zero upgrade. So again in a fight between a marauder and Stalker if stalker can't flee after losing his shield "HP" then he is dommed because he will be facing a full potential marauder aganist a 66% full potential Stalker.
To achieve protoss full potential he has to upgrade his shields (or keep not losing anything, like HuK does when he blink the stalkers after one single hit in the enemy). To do that he spent even more minerals and a tons of time.
in the end after all upgrades Terran 3/3 and Protoss 3/3/3
terran has spent:
-570 x 2 = 1140 seconds in upgrade research,
-525 x 2 = 1050 minerals
-525 x 2 = 1050 vespeine gas
-Protoss has spent:
-570 x 2 = 1140 + 570 (for Shields) = 1710 seconds in upgrade research
-525 x 2 = 1050 + 900 (for Shields) = 1950 minerals
-525 x 2 = 1050 + 900 (for Shields) = 1950 vespeine gas
Time and resources to maximize protoss upgrades almost DOUBLES just for catching 3/3 other races upgrades
now, some terran/zerg can say "oh protoss noob, just keep using chronoboost on your forge and you are fine. ok, lets try to THINK a little bit, because terran and zerg guys only says that without thinking a little bit to know that this is absurd.
If protoss spent every single nexus energy into forge chronoboost what'd we have? dead protoss with no combat units ? sorry let's get seriouly. Suppose that protoss has gas to waste (LOL get real, well just suppose, or try - ok i'll stop), if he chronos forge everytime then in the end protoss should have all 3/3/3 upgrades in aproximally 1140 seconds too (1710 - 1710*0.3333 #tnx Pinski and Et#).
But by doing this, protoss will be sure damaged in worker count and/or attack units.
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Whines:
No whine!!!
Knowing all these things i'll foresee all terran and maybe zerg whines:
-Protoss has Shields.
LOL, so what? normally fights came and go in matter of seconds, shields is a big deal only in mega-ultra-early game, after that is really hard to have that advantage upon it (This is the IdrA's only nightmare - the inability to not let protoss deathball regain it's shields)
-Protoss have chrono boost
Ok, that's true, but if he keeps using it on his upgrades he'll be fairly damaged in his incame, both terran and zerg can be really good at making drones and SCV MULES to make their incame real high.
-Protoss upgrades is spread to robotics units....so protoss is imba.
That's quite/almost true, but (Sad Zealot "but") every protoss knows the danger of using robotics units they are way expencive and can be focused in a fight, so even if they can actually have these upgrades that is not big deal, rarely we see more then 3 robotics units in early game (and that's not a matter, because upgrades are way better with numbers not quality - a 3/3/3 Carrier aganist maybe 12 marines 3/3 scarry but i guess it's needed less marines to take a Carrier).
Besides making transitions as protoss and maybe zerg is not so easy has making transitions as terran. Why? because terran can turtle up, can sim city his base and absolutely make very few units to protect (with little risks) his base while protoss has to keep making units to grant it's own defence.
-Now how can i defeat protoss as terran???
you know, when terran were totally kinda unbalenced (1-1-1, all-in that does not look like all-in, zillions of openings and stuff), terran players just said: improvise because game is fairly balanced or get real, micro more, use chronoboost, use new strategy, use other units, burrow more banelings etc. They kept saying that even throu we were trying that day by day, struggling. What about you guys improvise a bit? your race has a tremendous potential, stop complaining about nerfs, because i foresee more terran nerfs.
-Protoss is just imba.
ok, i'm convinced now.
Conclusion
Well with this patch i guess protoss will try get more upgrades and try to use it's advantage of regenarating a bit more. This way protoss will use it's designed potential that is Regenarete their Shields and Fight again. It'll still be hard but at least it's more easy now.
Terran, if protoss becames imba because of that (with i doubt) don't whine more then what you guys have been whining...just get better, realize new strategies use the damn Reaper in late game your race have so much potential and you guys keep MMM.
now...all people of the world..WHINE about the thread !!!
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You also forgot that marauders get +2 dmg vs stalkers for every atk upgrade. Stalkers only get +1. Roaches also get +2 dmg to everything for atk upgrades. at 3/3 vs 3/3, a stalker does the same dmg as 0/0 vs 0/0, but a marauder does 6 extra dmg to shields, and 3 extra to hp.
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If everyone who had an opinion on a patch made a thread about it, we'd have a very crowded and terrible forum.
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qq
User was temp banned for this post.
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decent, different perspective. I can side with this more than other threads
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Can we actually wait for the patch to come out and see what builds develop before we start crying?
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On October 27 2011 08:38 1Eris1 wrote:
Can we actually wait for the patch to come out and see what builds develop before we start crying?
That's exactly why i made this thread, just to STOP any whines.
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On October 27 2011 08:35 susySquark wrote:
You also forgot that marauders get +2 dmg vs stalkers for every atk upgrade. Stalkers only get +1. Roaches also get +2 dmg to everything for atk upgrades. at 3/3 vs 3/3, a stalker does the same dmg as 0/0 vs 0/0, but a marauder does 6 extra dmg to shields, and 3 extra to hp.
I was waiting for this point, too.
It's a pretty important note
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Saying Naniwa signed up for the sad zealot fanclub isn't exactly relevant anymore considering he thinks balance doesn't come into it and there were different issues entirely (ie. 1/1/1 and protoss play/strategy being bad at the time). I'd recommend editing that out.
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On October 27 2011 08:41 The_DarkAngelz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 08:38 1Eris1 wrote:
Can we actually wait for the patch to come out and see what builds develop before we start crying? That's exactly why i made this thread, just to STOP any whines.
Haha sorry, I should have been more clear on that post. I meant it as more of a general statement, towards everyone.
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Whenever you see someone make a giant post that is purely based on a numbers game, the QQer alarm buzzes on my head like hell.
Though your calculations are accurate to some extend, the game is NOT the numbers. Numbers are part of the game. Execution is the key factor.
Also, PvT is not about Stalkers vs. Marauders. So if you decide to go mass stalker against a T that has more than 3 barracks with tech labs, you're just flat out doing it wrong.
The new PTR is clearly Blizzard saying "Hey P-boys, turns out double forge is really good, you should use it more. Here's a discount on the upgrades so you can try them out". Pros have being using double forge for months now, they just seemed to be a lack of resources to produce enough units in the mid-game AND get upgrades at the same time. Let's see how this plays out
Don't think numbers, think planing.
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Really poor grammar and spelling, and honestly a very flawed point. I have read this twice already and still cannot understand what you are criticizing, or praising. Just seems like you are saying that Protoss cannot afford to chrono upgrades, because they will fall behind on probes...? That's a fundamental design of the race; you boost speed in either macro, or in upgrades - your choice. Terran cannot MULE + scan infinitely, and I cannot drone infinitely as Zerg. There is an optimal threshold for how fast and how many workers should be made, and that all depends on the map and the opponent.
As for the whining, I think you need to re-consider who is doing the whining in this case, and maybe not say "LOL, so what" for shields being an argument (although I do agree that you can never bash a race's design; it was like that in BW and will stay like that in SC2).
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Which mod will come to the rescue first I wonder?
I admire some of the effort but basic grammar wouldn't be a terribly bad investment. Maybe we should make the spell check upgrade cheaper? Congrats, you figured out that marauder kills stalkers.
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On October 27 2011 08:50 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Which mod will come to the rescue first I wonder?
I admire some of the effort but basic grammar wouldn't be a terribly bad investment. Maybe we should make the spell check upgrade cheaper? Congrats, you figured out that marauder kills stalkers.
guys u can correct my grammar and send a PM !! i'm learning this damn language!
and the marauder was just an exemple of how upgrades differs from protoss race to the others, because almost half of protoss HP is Shield that gets no benefit from armour upgrade, while other race ground army does.
so a little ajustment was needed to make it a little more balanced.
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On October 27 2011 08:35 susySquark wrote:
You also forgot that marauders get +2 dmg vs stalkers for every atk upgrade. Stalkers only get +1. Roaches also get +2 dmg to everything for atk upgrades. at 3/3 vs 3/3, a stalker does the same dmg as 0/0 vs 0/0, but a marauder does 6 extra dmg to shields, and 3 extra to hp.
o_o
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On October 27 2011 08:54 The_DarkAngelz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 08:50 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Which mod will come to the rescue first I wonder?
I admire some of the effort but basic grammar wouldn't be a terribly bad investment. Maybe we should make the spell check upgrade cheaper? Congrats, you figured out that marauder kills stalkers. guys u can correct my grammar and send a PM !! i'm learning this damn language!
I suppose I should not used that tone but:
To be honest and don't take this the wrong way, all you're saying in the OP is that Protoss have to upgrade a little more. This is a pretty obvious thing. You don't really do any sort of high level analysis or anything other than point this out so it is not very useful to spend time correcting this type of post.
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On October 27 2011 08:57 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On October 27 2011 08:54 The_DarkAngelz wrote:On October 27 2011 08:50 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Which mod will come to the rescue first I wonder?
I admire some of the effort but basic grammar wouldn't be a terribly bad investment. Maybe we should make the spell check upgrade cheaper? Congrats, you figured out that marauder kills stalkers. guys u can correct my grammar and send a PM !! i'm learning this damn language! I suppose I should not used that tone but: To be honest and don't take this the wrong way, all you're saying in the OP is that Protoss have to upgrade a little more. This is a pretty obvious thing. You don't really do any sort of high level analysis or anything other than point this out so it is not very useful to spend time correcting this type of post.
Well at least one gets it...
this post is not to change the world is to only make T and Z stop whine !! TNX i really enjoyed to make this thread thou!
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well written, well constructed post....
About a terrible topic.
Protoss need to stop assuming they're underpowered and start figuring out how to beat people (hint, it isn't with a deathball)
I'm so tired of whining protoss doing nothing but the deathball. Here's a tip: if it doesn't work anymore, the definition of insanity is trying the exact same thing again and expecting different results.
And a counterpoint: protoss have the fastest, cheapest, fewest number of upgrades in the game with the best synergy (shields help your BUILDINGS.) Zerg has to do more, but gets a little synergy between things like lings and broodlings from broodlords, and ultralisk and terran has to do hard mech upgrades AND bio upgrades in tvz and that still doesn't do anything to upgrade our other t3 unit (I don't think this is imbalanced, just pointing out that you should stop whining about upgrades. Everyone else has it worse.)
Terran also has bunker upgrades to consider, building armor, turret range and PF range, as well as two marine upgrades, a marauder upgrade, a reaper upgrade, two for ghost, two for raven, one for medivac, one for banshee, one for tank, one for hellion, two for battlecruiser, etc.
We have to do a shitload of upgrades just to make our core army useful.
Seriously. If your upgrades were more potent, things would be crazy.
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protoss isnt the only one who has to buy seperate upgrades to make his army efficient. Terran has factory upgrades, and zerg has to buy seperate meelee/missle attack. Also the cost change of the new upgrades wont amount to too much ANDi am suspicous that it will allow protoss to get upgrades a significant time earlier
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On October 27 2011 09:08 Honeybadger wrote:
well written, well constructed post....
About a terrible topic.
Protoss need to stop assuming they're underpowered and start figuring out how to beat people (hint, it isn't with a deathball)
I'm so tired of whining protoss doing nothing but the deathball. Here's a tip: if it doesn't work anymore, the definition of insanity is trying the exact same thing again and expecting different results.
LOL, that's exactly what i was talking about...just read the thread...this kind of behavior !!
Let's try something different protoss community, let's innovate, somehow !
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EPT![[image loading]](http://images.sodahead.com/polls/002200327/2222675051_whine_answer_3_xlarge.jpeg)
![[image loading]](http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001868533/4226836621_stop_whining_answer_1_xlarge.jpeg)
