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On September 10 2011 03:08 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 03:03 imbecile wrote:On September 10 2011 02:55 ToastieNL wrote:
A complete lack of options is what is holding Protoss back. Play Protoss before you blame them for not changing their play. I played random for most of the time, never made Colossus, never 4 gated, never 6 gated, never made Void rays, and didn't use much stalker or sentry even for a long time, and wasn't any worse than with my other races. Although I have to admit not 4gating on Tal'Darim vs. Protoss sucks. Wait, what builds did you use? Not making stalkers or sentries makes AA very difficult, and denying early scouts difficult as well. This sounds like almost Funday Monday tier difficult restrictions.
Early on I mostly went FFE or 2 gate robo into chargelot into immortal/warp prism into carrier/mothership and only got stalkers in response to early/midgame air, relied a lot on cannons and a few sentries for defensive force fields.
Later I added more stalkers and sentries for better harass and better early offensive options. Templars and archons I only really started using after the Archon range buff.
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Protoss doesn't just have anything to harass. Zealots are cheap and may be fantastic dps for drops, but they just can't catch workers (damn you game design). Stalkers are too expensive and have barely any dps. There's not very many escape options, we just don't have stim, or the fastest/cheapest ground unit in the game.
I don't know why hallu isn't used as often, now after the research time drop it's much better to scout.
Mothership/Carrier are just in a generally lesser used tech path. They are super lategame usually, where a robo as first tech choice is almost always safest.
I see players use templar plenty, not sure why you consider it underused
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Why don't Protoss constantly harass and put on pressure?
Dark Templar and Phoenixes are a commitment early game. If you go that route, you have to do a significant amount of damage or else you're way behind. Late game, Dark Templar are really good until they catch on. Late game Phoenixes in my opinion can never justify it's cost because it takes up supply and harassing a few workers is meaningless when they have so many drones and scvs.
Blink Stalkers aren't that great at harassing vs Zerg because of creep and how mobile the Zerg units are. Infestors lock them in place and they can move their army to flank the Stalkers easily. If you're talking about denying some creep tumors or sniping a base in Shakuras or something, people have been already doing that. In PvT, it's meh at best because at most you're gonna snipe a building or two and the risk of doing that is losing all your Stalkers to Marauders.
Why don't Protoss use Mothership?
I think Motherships are definitely viable in PvZ, but in PvT, it usually gets focused down really fast.
Why don't Protoss use Hallucination?
Hallucination has always been used in PvZ. I don't really like it though. The investment delays your tech and 100 energy off Sentries means you have two less FFs. If they do some kind of Roach/ling, you might not have enough FFs. In PvT, Robo is standard anyway so obs is better.
Why don't Protoss use Warp Prism?
Warp Prism has been seen a lot in recent games. Protoss players have been experimenting with this a lot more. With the next patch, I can definitely see a lot of new strategies with this.
Why don't Protoss use Templar?
I never seen Templars not being used. People have always been using it in PvT for Storm and against Ghosts, and also PvZ when Zergs get Infestors.
Why don't Protoss use Carriers?
Carriers are certainly great when you can build a lot of them. The question is when can you do it? Going Carriers right from the beginning leaves you dead to any timing attacks. They take so long to build also that in late game, when can you sacrifice your army for an extended period of time so that you won't die to a straight up push? If Terrans or Zergs see you're building Carriers, they're just going to attack and you will lose because your army is smaller.
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On September 10 2011 03:08 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 03:03 imbecile wrote:On September 10 2011 02:55 ToastieNL wrote:
A complete lack of options is what is holding Protoss back. Play Protoss before you blame them for not changing their play. I played random for most of the time, never made Colossus, never 4 gated, never 6 gated, never made Void rays, and didn't use much stalker or sentry even for a long time, and wasn't any worse than with my other races. Although I have to admit not 4gating on Tal'Darim vs. Protoss sucks. Wait, what builds did you use? Not making stalkers or sentries makes AA very difficult, and denying early scouts difficult as well. This sounds like almost Funday Monday tier difficult restrictions.
he never said he was good with protoss.. he just said he wasn't any worse. for all we know he could be just as terrible with T and Z.
in which league can you get away with not building colossi, void rays, and not having a mainly stalker and/or sentry composition? only viable composition from there is zeal/archon.
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Ehm… Ps do all the things listed. Platinum/diamond/low masters Ps get by with timing pushes, and the most successful Ps get by with timing pushes, the best Ps tend to place in between and use the literally hundreds of unique builds that have popped up (and most of the strongest ones have been turned into all-in variations by other Ps). You might not always see the best Ps use that much variation in competitions, of course, because the builds overall don’t work that well against top players on ladder and in team practice, from what I understand.
Simply, timing pushes and all-in innovations have always been the strongest part of P, nothing else works as well. Pro players’ time is better spent perfecting timings and all-ins, as evidenced by the very top Ps throughout SC2.
That’s not how it should be, but it’s how it has been up to present time. At least, that’s how it has always looked to me, and I watch a whole lot of competitions and streams.
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On September 10 2011 03:03 imbecile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:55 ToastieNL wrote:
A complete lack of options is what is holding Protoss back. Play Protoss before you blame them for not changing their play. I played random for most of the time, never made Colossus, never 4 gated, never 6 gated, never made Void rays, and didn't use much stalker or sentry even for a long time, and wasn't any worse than with my other races. Although I have to admit not 4gating on Tal'Darim vs. Protoss sucks.
A lot of things work in bronze i guess..
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On September 10 2011 02:53 imbecile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 02:32 nShade wrote:
1.Why don't Protoss constantly harass and put on pressure?
- Putting pressure on an opponent during mid game, as protoss, is a huge risk.
The reason for that is the fact that, if an engagement goes badly for the protoss, he can't really retreat without taking heavy losses, thanks to concussive shells, stim, zergling surrounds.
Why don't Protoss use Mothership?
- Motherships are a good unit toi have at an endgame scenario, I feel. Though it's hard to be in a situation where the enemy won't already have propper units to deal with it quickly. 1 EMP, 1 feedback, 1 neural parasite (god bless the patch), 1 volley of mass viking/corruptor fire, and it's dead. Was it worth it? Maybe. I imagine it will get some use again in PvsZ lategame after the patch. It could punish infestor/broodlord play with a well placed vortex.
Why don't Protoss use Hallucination?
- It does get used for scouting quite often, but that's all really. Hallucinating anything that can't be used for scouting, is not that usefull if your opponent has detection. There are some situations though where hallucinations like voidrays or colossi in PvsZ lategame have their potential, as they can soak up infestor spells and possibly corruptor fire. Still, you'll need to use the sentry energy on hallucinations instead of force fields, which are generally a better choice overall.
Why don't Protoss use Warp Prism?
There are a couple of reasons, I feel.
First off, creating warp prisms takes away from colossus building time. (which at high level of play can cost you dearly.) They are also quite easy to pick, thanks to their low health (changed in patch now) and speed, if they are not upgraded with the Gravitic drive upgrade (was that the name?)
The other big reason is, protoss does not have anything worth dropping untill very late game, when he can afford to drop high templar and then remake those after losing them eventually.
Sentry drops+ warp-ins above ramp have gained some popularity, which is really cool.
I feel like after the patch, we will see some experimenting with that kind of strategy more often.
Why don't Protoss use Templar?
They do....
Why don't Protoss use Carriers?
Too big of an investment in all 3 SC2 resources. Minerals, Gas and Time.
In order to have a number of carriers and have them pay for themselves, you will be dead.
Ofcourse a fleet of 10 carriers will be amazing, but you just can't get 10 carriers without dying a painfull death.
Those are my thoughts. I am sorry about my bad English, teamliquid. :/
1. Forcefield, blink and fast warp prisms can ensure the retreat if you use the terrain quite well. 2. EMP and Neural Parasite shouldn't matter if you have cloaked high templar, colossus or carriers with your mothership, since any infestor or ghost should be dead or out of energy before it gets in range. Especially Neural parasite shouldn't matter, even if it was successfut: just feedback the infestor in question.
1: That's pretty vague. And Protoss do use hit and run tactics, but by the time and/or well before sufficient ff, blink, or upgraded warp prisms are an option, fungals and conc shell are serious considerations and they have to back off.
Maybe cough up a couple replays?
2: emp and fungal uncloak the army, and in what situation besides an already won game does a protoss who has invested in fleet beacon tech have the residual income to out produce their opponent in gas intensive casters? Using 50 energy to feedback an infestor that just dropped 100 energy on np is a waste, unless unbeknownst to me feedback cancels it, because it won't kill the infestor unless it had 190 energy before it cast; In ZvP, isn't the idea to cast np after fungal growth?
The OP is kind of vague overall, and you need to check a couple of your facts.
As far as P being hostile to innovation, my sense is that this is something you're observing in the balance debate that's erupting. If that's the case, you might as well call spades spades and post somewhere else saying that P isn't imbalanced and P users should stuff it, because I'm not really sure what else you've said here besides pointing out that some protoss don't attack in the mid game some of the time.
EDIT: would also like to add, you claimed protoss has the fastest and most flexible transport. Would you elaborate on/defend that claim a little? I have a hard time seeing how a warp prism is definitively more flexible than medivacs.
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On September 10 2011 02:10 Zedex wrote:
Nobody got trashed because they suggested building two observers, geoff and Naniwa thought building two observers was better than one and tyler and huk thought it was a waste or robo build time, they had a discussion about it there was no clear winner.
Also, they were talking about PvP, which is extremely relevant.
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On September 10 2011 01:58 imbecile wrote:
Why don't Protoss use Carriers?
They are the highest DPS unit in the game...
That is factually false. Among the units that have higher dps than a full carrier are:
Immortal vs Armored, Thors vs ground, Battlecruisers, Ultralisks vs armored
There are several units that are very close to the same dps, such as the marauder - which does 75% of the dps of one carrier. Obviously this doesn't take into account range, aoe, cost efficiency, or upgrades, but it's just false to say that carriers have the highest dps in the game and I think people only said it because Artosis said it once.
I'm not saying carriers are bad, or whatever, I just hate it when people make statements about game stats like these that are wrong.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On September 10 2011 03:35 Cold Warpgates wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 01:58 imbecile wrote:
Why don't Protoss use Carriers?
They are the highest DPS unit in the game... That is factually false. Among the units that have higher dps than a full carrier are: Immortal vs Armored, Thors vs ground, Battlecruisers, Ultralisks vs armored There are several units that are very close to the same dps, such as the marauder - which does 75% of the dps of one carrier. Obviously this doesn't take into account range, aoe, cost efficiency, or upgrades, but it's just false to say that carriers have the highest dps in the game and I think people only said it because Artosis said it once. I'm not saying carriers are bad, or whatever, I just hate it when people make statements about game stats like these that are wrong.
You make a valid point. Let me add: Carrier gains 26 DPS per +1, whereas immortal gain +20 DPS, thor gains +5, BC gains ~+5DPS, ultralisk gains ~+5 DPS.
I think Artosis was talking about how much Carrier scales with upgrades, in all likelihood.
EDIT: THIS IS ALL WRONG NEVER MIND
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Why don't protoss spread their units and use hallucinated collossi to make infestors useless, instead of whining about them?
Terrans spread their marines against banelings, why is it so hard for protoss? And don't say detection counters hallucination, what zerg brings an overseer into every battle against protoss?
Also why don't protoss use blink stalkers to harass lategame? They are insanely mobile and can easily snipe queens and drones. You don't need dark templar or air units to harass.
Why does protoss attack into broodlords? You wouldn't a-move into 20 siege tanks, but you a-move into 20 broodlords mindlessly and then cry op.
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On September 10 2011 03:39 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 03:35 Cold Warpgates wrote:On September 10 2011 01:58 imbecile wrote:
Why don't Protoss use Carriers?
They are the highest DPS unit in the game... That is factually false. Among the units that have higher dps than a full carrier are: Immortal vs Armored, Thors vs ground, Battlecruisers, Ultralisks vs armored There are several units that are very close to the same dps, such as the marauder - which does 75% of the dps of one carrier. Obviously this doesn't take into account range, aoe, cost efficiency, or upgrades, but it's just false to say that carriers have the highest dps in the game and I think people only said it because Artosis said it once. I'm not saying carriers are bad, or whatever, I just hate it when people make statements about game stats like these that are wrong. You make a valid point. Let me add: Carrier gains 26 DPS per +1, whereas immortal gain +20 DPS, thor gains +5, BC gains ~+5DPS, ultralisk gains ~+5 DPS. I think Artosis was talking about how much Carrier scales with upgrades, in all likelihood.
That's not true either...without upgrades or enemy armor, carriers do 26.66 dps. They gain +20% damage from +1, so they go up to ~32, an increase of about 6, not 26. I also don't know how Immortals go up to 50+ dps from one upgrade, lol...
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On September 10 2011 03:44 Cold Warpgates wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 03:39 Blazinghand wrote:On September 10 2011 03:35 Cold Warpgates wrote:On September 10 2011 01:58 imbecile wrote:
Why don't Protoss use Carriers?
They are the highest DPS unit in the game... That is factually false. Among the units that have higher dps than a full carrier are: Immortal vs Armored, Thors vs ground, Battlecruisers, Ultralisks vs armored There are several units that are very close to the same dps, such as the marauder - which does 75% of the dps of one carrier. Obviously this doesn't take into account range, aoe, cost efficiency, or upgrades, but it's just false to say that carriers have the highest dps in the game and I think people only said it because Artosis said it once. I'm not saying carriers are bad, or whatever, I just hate it when people make statements about game stats like these that are wrong. You make a valid point. Let me add: Carrier gains 26 DPS per +1, whereas immortal gain +20 DPS, thor gains +5, BC gains ~+5DPS, ultralisk gains ~+5 DPS. I think Artosis was talking about how much Carrier scales with upgrades, in all likelihood. That's not true either...without upgrades or enemy armor, carriers do 26.66 dps. They gain +20% damage from +1, so they go up to ~32, an increase of about 6, not 26. I also don't know how Immortals go up to 50+ dps from one upgrade, lol...
Ooh oops my mistake. I misread carrier DPS. they have 26 TO BEGIN WITH and gain +5 per upgrade, which is pretty awe-inspiring. So they're on par with all these other guys.
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Templar, warp prisms, and hallucination are quite common actually.
Carriers are good lategame, but getting them earlier than 20 minutes in the game usually involves a huge risk as carriers take an eternity to build.
Mothership.. It is good but just like the carrier, involves a massive risk and is an ridiculous investment. You really can't get one before 15 mins, and 50% of all PvX games played have already ended at that point. I think the carrier and the mothership could use a build time buff.
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On September 10 2011 01:58 imbecile wrote:
Why don't Protoss use Mothership?
It's the ultimate end game unit. Yet you can get it out faster and cheaper than all the other end game tech for the other races. And motherships destroy any kind of death ball army with vortex while also increasing mobility and harass with recall and bolstering your base defense tremendously by making all buildings and units invisible.
Why don't Protoss use Templar?
Templar trash the staple mass units of the other races, like marine, ling, hydra, marauder, roaches. They literally erase worker lines within seconds. They instakill all casters while outranging most. They become extremely powerful units once out of energy. This one is slowly changing though.
Why don't Protoss use Carriers?
They are the highest DPS unit in the game, attack air and ground, outrange everything (14, once the interceptors are released), benefit the most from upgrades, have tremendous survivability when microed and positioned well, have mothership tech available, so they can always be saved when in trouble, can be teched to faster and arguably cheaper than colossus. Also, neural parasite is not overly useful against them, at least in larger groups, even if successfully done with all that range: they lose their interceptors quickly without doing much damage.
U will see all of this when Zergs can't Neural parasite them anymore, don't worry T_T.
Why u don't see them in vT and vP?
vP matches don't last that long and in vT matches you really don't want air units, templar are used.
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On September 10 2011 03:25 K3Nyy wrote:
Why don't Protoss constantly harass and put on pressure?
Dark Templar and Phoenixes are a commitment early game. If you go that route, you have to do a significant amount of damage or else you're way behind. Late game, Dark Templar are really good until they catch on. Late game Phoenixes in my opinion can never justify it's cost because it takes up supply and harassing a few workers is meaningless when they have so many drones and scvs.
Blink Stalkers aren't that great at harassing vs Zerg because of creep and how mobile the Zerg units are. Infestors lock them in place and they can move their army to flank the Stalkers easily. If you're talking about denying some creep tumors or sniping a base in Shakuras or something, people have been already doing that. In PvT, it's meh at best because at most you're gonna snipe a building or two and the risk of doing that is losing all your Stalkers to Marauders.
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Why don't Protoss use Carriers?
Carriers are certainly great when you can build a lot of them. The question is when can you do it? Going Carriers right from the beginning leaves you dead to any timing attacks. They take so long to build also that in late game, when can you sacrifice your army for an extended period of time so that you won't die to a straight up push? If Terrans or Zergs see you're building Carriers, they're just going to attack and you will lose because your army is smaller.
I never used a lot of phoenixes either, but when they were used against me as zerg in small numbers it essentially meant I'm gonna lose a few overlords/overseers, I can't have overlord spread, and I'm gonna lose a few drones here and there, and I can't go muta at all, because he will scout it and be ready to mass more phoenix. All those are quite annoying restrictions to zerg. And since Graviton beam cancels Neural Parasite those would still be useful all game long.
When I used carriers as Protoss, I did quite a bit of warp prism harass to snipe and delay tech with immortals and thrash mineral lines with chargelots, which I found bought me enough time to get the 4-6 carriers and the upgrades to start really doing damage with them. Also, if you go warp prism/immortal/chargelot against a meching terran or a terran going marauder/ghost you can win outright with it. Happened far too often before I even got to carriers.
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On September 10 2011 03:45 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 03:44 Cold Warpgates wrote:On September 10 2011 03:39 Blazinghand wrote:On September 10 2011 03:35 Cold Warpgates wrote:On September 10 2011 01:58 imbecile wrote:
Why don't Protoss use Carriers?
They are the highest DPS unit in the game... That is factually false. Among the units that have higher dps than a full carrier are: Immortal vs Armored, Thors vs ground, Battlecruisers, Ultralisks vs armored There are several units that are very close to the same dps, such as the marauder - which does 75% of the dps of one carrier. Obviously this doesn't take into account range, aoe, cost efficiency, or upgrades, but it's just false to say that carriers have the highest dps in the game and I think people only said it because Artosis said it once. I'm not saying carriers are bad, or whatever, I just hate it when people make statements about game stats like these that are wrong. You make a valid point. Let me add: Carrier gains 26 DPS per +1, whereas immortal gain +20 DPS, thor gains +5, BC gains ~+5DPS, ultralisk gains ~+5 DPS. I think Artosis was talking about how much Carrier scales with upgrades, in all likelihood. That's not true either...without upgrades or enemy armor, carriers do 26.66 dps. They gain +20% damage from +1, so they go up to ~32, an increase of about 6, not 26. I also don't know how Immortals go up to 50+ dps from one upgrade, lol... Ooh oops my mistake. I misread carrier DPS. they have 26 TO BEGIN WITH and gain +5 per upgrade, which is pretty awe-inspiring. So they're on par with all these other guys.
They do scale quite well, though of course they lose just as much from enemy armor. They scale just as well as zerglings and phoenixes-vs-non-light, Reapers vs non light and broodlings actually scale even better, but that isnt as big of a deal.
Even in a full-attack-upgrade situation, carriers don't do the most dps (it's actually thors vs ground), and each point of enemy armor cancels out 1 attack upgrade.
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you are about 3 metagames behind, protosses are using warp prisms, carriers, templar, hallucination, and when they can they are investing in motherships.
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EPT
