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On August 31 2011 10:27 schmutttt wrote:
IMO Hydras are great in ZvZ with roach support (They just shred everything, even Ultras if you have good attack upgrades) but have no place in other matchups except certain ZvP scenarios.
They need a speed boost IMO, HP buff would be a bit too much but if they had speed they would be far more viable.
A small band of hydras amongst a mass of roaches can work alright occasionally, they need more hp or dps to be better than a marauder :/
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BW hydras, or something similar would be nice.
T1 hydra den at 100/50 cost
1 supply hydra at the cost of 75/25, nerf the damage by 2 or even 4 if it feels warranted
speed upgrade at lair
range upgrade at lair
If the hydra MUST stay as a T2, 2 supply unit, then reduce their gas cost by 25 making them 100/25 and raise their hp to 90
speed upgrade at lair
range should be free though
I would use both of those hydralisks
@Plexa
I've tried making use of the hydra because they "slaughter gateway units"
unfortunately, once you add micro and council research in to the equation, hydras just fail.
You are overestimating their combat prowess by calling them 2x a marine though...
They're bigger so they don't stack as well
They don't have stim so they deal significantly less damage and move rather slow
While they do move at a "standard" speed, they are still considered slow because everything else that moves at a standard speed tends to have something special it can do (force field, siege mode, extended thermal lance, EMP/snipe) while a hydra has... sub-par damage given their cost
They cost 2x a marine in mineral... + 50 gas, which is worth at least 50 minerals, so the total estimate is probably closer to 3.5-4x a marine
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On August 31 2011 11:19 Arterial wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 11:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Speed: Slow off creep? You should be spreading creep o.O Practically a non-issue.
Low hp? High dps. Good against Protoss's gateway units, immortals, air. Forces Protoss to transition to colossi, which you can prepare for with roaches and corruptors.
I wouldn't be surprised if something happens to them in HotS though, as they do seem a little bland... So you're suggesting that I have my creep spread all the way to his base? Even though the odds of him having an observer and sniping creep tumors is very high? High DPS is great, if your unit is still alive. Remember the Hydra is an expensive unit.
It doesn't have to be all the way to his base, but your creep spread should still be great and you don't have to let the opponent snipe all your creep tumors.
Also, just because hydralisks aren't as fast as speedlings doesn't mean you can't use them because they're too slow.
And no, the hydralisk isn't even close to being an expensive unit. That's crap. It's 100 minerals and 50 gas. How I, as a Protoss player, manage to *ever* go blink stalkers is beyond me... since stalkers cost an arm and a leg 
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On August 31 2011 10:19 Arko.is wrote:
Blizzard had already shown its current balance focus in PTR patch 1.4. The hydralisk is not on that list. Because of that reason I figured I would give the hydralisk some tries and see if there was some hidden way to make the unit more effective. In short - It did not - What I found was just flaws and problem with the unit.
I didn't find any recent discussion about the hydralisk so wanted to hear what other people think about the hydralisk and where they think it belongs in the grand scheme of things.
The problems:
Speed : Its insanely slow speed off creep making it not work in sync with other zerg units hit and run capabilities. Almost impossible to retreat. So the unit slow the army down much like the immortal and tank but is nowhere close as effective.
Upgrades : The hydralisk only gets +1 attack each upgrade like the marine and zergling even though it is a lot more expensive unit and higher tier. This makes the hydralisk lack in mid to late game.
Hps : Hydralisks hp/cost is I think the lowest in the game excluding the baneling. This should be made up with strength in some other area but I can not find that strength.
Rock Paper Scissors : The hydralisk en masse doesn't hard counter much at all. Marines eat them alive, marauders are actually cost effective when upgraded, even banshees are almost cost effective vs hydralisks. For protoss gateway units with blink and charge and same upgrades come out on top with guardian shield and equal in strength without one.
But this does not mean the hydralisk does decently to its counter. It's the opposite Colossus,high templar,siege tanks,battlecruisers all pretty much slaughter the hydralisk without them making much of a dent to the other side.
Conclusion : The hydralisk doesn't really have any role in zergs army. The few roles it can compete at are just barely effective and as soon as their hard counter comes in you feel so stupid even having them in your army comp. You want to just get rid of them since they are taking valuable supply but will vaporize in any big batter you will fight in.
Possible Fixes : They need to get either hps or speed. I think giving them hps might make the roach somewhat absolete so giving them speed for hit and run capability might be the correct answer. Also having them gain more then +1 attack per upgrade is essential for its mid to lategame performance.
Other possibilites : Complete rework on the unit. Making it even bigger so fewer get splashed. Giving it more hps. Increasing it's cost. and giving it +2 attack per upgrade.
Would like to hear what other people have found out with their hydralisk tryouts and if they did come to some other conclusions then me.
This isn't a balance thread, nor is this any implication for strategic follow up...
Anyways
Hydras against protoss are good anti-air units in teh sense of if they 2 stargate voidray if you ever want to take a 3rd or 4th you'll need hydralisk. If the opponent goes colossi afterwards (which 9/10 will) you just need to be really good with splitting. Thats what those micromanagement tournies are for, they give you retardely one sided matches between protoss and zerg but basic split micro beats them :|
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I wouldn't mind if hydra speed was added to hive and the unit was less of a glass cannon and more of the BW uber marine.
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i personally like hydras in ZvP and sometimes in ZvZ, I usually go for roach/hydra and then something else like infestors or bane drops. i generally get them because the roaches tank the damage and the hydras just stay back and deal out pretty good damage imo. that said, on their own, they are terrible. hp wise they die way too fast. in terms of speed if i'm doing hit and run tactics, and i have hydras, i'll make it a multi=pronged attack and say hit the expansion with some lings, maybe another with roachs, then i'll nydus with the hydras and that usually works pretty well (usually lol) so in terms of speed, drops and nydus can make up for it, but like i said, on their own hydras are bad.
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i think that the only ligit use for hydras is to put early pressure on toss players (via drops nydus or creep spread on close positions) and in roach hydra and corrupter armys (which have fallen out of favour, for good reason) they are far too gas heavy and squishy for zerg to use them as a backbone of an army, plus creep is oh so easy to deny which makes you're hydras even worse.
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Am I mistaken or has this thread gone completely out of focus. Is this not meant to discuss where hydralisks belong in a zerg army rather than how to balance a unit... Some of the posts offer insane ways to try to balance the hydralisks that just wont work. They would either completely destroy some matchups or just break the game...
Anyway on point. Hydralisks are actually really good units but there not ment to be the main part of any zerg army as some people expect them to be. The unit is kind of formed to focus on dps,and as a result health and speed are lowered in favor or attack damage and their insane attack speed. They need support and are usually not a unit you can just mass because of their weaknesses. Marines need siege tanks or they get wiped out by banelings or infestors. Colossi require meat shields in order to be cost effective. Similarly hydralisks need to be mixed in a unit composition that supports its weaknesses and boosts the armies' overall effectiveness.
Where do hydras belong...Granted they almost do not serve any purpose in the ZvT matchup. But its similar to the uselessness of helions vs a protoss army ( Unless there used for harassment) Hydras are great in ZvP and ZvZ...Especially when the upcoming patch is inplemented.(They survive 3 fungal growths instead of 2 because of their regeneration)
(Hydra Roach) You guys should probably already know how hydras rip apart any pure gateway army along with some immortals that "hard counter" a pure roach army. They complement roaches nicely - the low tier easily massable units that are easily meatshields that support the low hp hydras. In turn... the hydras with +1 range with their fast attacks make up for the slower roach attacks.
(Hydra ling) is also great vs stalker zealot even with their twilight council ups as long as you keep up with your carapace and missile attack upgrades.
(Hydra broodlord + ?) This is probably the least explored but hydras work great with broodlords as the broodlings are the meatshield that attract colossi fire while the hydras can wipe out most threats to the broodlords whether it be voidray phoenix or stalkers. Just be careful if you happen to use this composition as other units have to be mixed in to this generally low hp army... such as infestors to prevent any enemy air from getting close or preventing those annoying stalkers from escaping after picking of a broodlord or two etc.
(Hydra overlord) Yes hydra overlord. IdrA and many other top zerg players incorporate hydra drops into their game once in a while and they have proven that this strategy works well... For those that believe hydras are too immobile use them with some speedlords to harass expansions normally or drop when the protoss army is distracted somewhere else. Hydras have a similar concept to marines when dropped. They shred any mineral line quickly and can usually survive a panic-warpin of four or so stalker/zealot.
Main point. please...please don't use almost pure hydralisks in your army..unless you really believe you can just walk all over the enemies' base with them.
-Oh and don't use them as a reinforcement unit unless your containing the enemy to their base or something of sort or can afford to wait a while for them to arrive... as you guys said there slow and will probably reach the battle too late or something like that.
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zerg shouldnt expect every unit automatically be fast, speedlings and muta's already serve as counter attacking units, nor should they expect hydra's to be particularly tanky either. The hydra's role is as a ranged dps unit - a glass cannon if you like thats REASONABLY cheap to produce and if protected becomes extremely cost effective. The biggest problem i've seen with their use is the zerg players mentality to use entire rounds of larva making a single unit type, too often you'll get attacked and have only hydras and wonder why they melt without sufficient tanky units to back them up. No units past t1 are really considered a jack of all trades, they start to become more powerful in certain situations, and the hydra is no exception to this rule.
TLDR - make more roaches to tank next time.
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if they gave them more HP they would be stupidly OP, they already do insane damage the only big flaw is its HP
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units like the marine and hydralisk force protoss to tech to AOE or blink or something that can combat it, that is its role
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Hopefully unproduced, if my game is going well.
That or loading out of a nydus in the protoss main on Tal'Darim.
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To me, in zvp the Hydralisk's only roll would be to turtle against air (not desirable because it means you've dumped resources into basically static defense), add a bit of dps behind roaches, or to all-in. The latter of these three is probably the best way to use them against toss, some early lair hydra rush to take advantage of a greedy toss player is the best way I can see them being used. They're awful against T and decent lategame against Z otherwise I can't think of any real utility for them because of how fragile and slow they are, particularly off-creep.
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They just need to be cheaper or tier 1 tech with upgrades being tier 2, like roach. They actually would be great vs T were they cheaper and much more effective in the other two match ups as well. I hate to say this in a thread about hydras, but banelings being faster with/without speed upgrade would kind of eliminate any need for hydras at all lol.
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I don't really even agree that Hydras wreck gateway units. They do a lot of damage fast, but I never feel like they are really strong enough considering how badly they fare against Collosus/Templar. A lot of the time just having more Roaches seems to work better for me against a lot of gateway units. Even Chargelots do pretty well against Hydras. Same deal with ZvZ. Just having more Roaches seems to work better, you only really start replacing them with Hydras once you're maxed.
I've no idea what would work to fix them, but clearly they aren't nearly versatile enough, even for a Zerg unit. Personally I'd also like to see Roaches gone and Hydras reworked for HotS, but I guess that would be a pretty bold move that could make a mess out of a fairly well balanced game.
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Hydras have a couple of problems, and it isn't so much that they're bad as they don't do anything something else could do, better.
Roaches function better as a core unit because they're mathematically more gas-cost effective versus virtually everything while having more utility (burrow movement, roach regen), more movement speed and half a "tier" earlier in tech.
Infestors, Mutalisks, Queens, Corruptors and Spore crawlers are all functional Anti-Air of varying levels in varying situations. Hydras do fill a slot of being there before a Spire would be up to deal with an army that queens and spores couldn't, but it's hardly a role to define a unit.
Infestors are typically more functional as support / damage / behind-the-wall-of-roaches unit for comparable and/or better gas cost efficiency.
Honestly, I feel like there's absolutely some sort of Hydra push, timing, or transition versus Terran that should be viable. Hydras are actually pretty good against most terran units (I think?), the biggest problem being the total lack of mobility.
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There's no point speculating about how you wish the game were balanced. Please read the strategy forum guidelines.
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EPT
