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On July 05 2011 01:37 McGuire72 wrote:
In my opinion this is still very weak to early-game timings from the Terran; if you watch game one of the series Bomber almost wins within the first 10 or so minutes with just a standard two medivac + marine drop in Destiny's natural.
Bomber should have one that game. He basically just sat there and let Destiny catch up when he could have finished him off after that drop.
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On July 04 2011 20:18 Chylouk wrote:
This build is good i have been watching him use it for some time on the ladders now but it dose seam to be week to constant aggression and anything that can get rid of the infestors energy.
Destiny also needs to think outside the box and start to do something different as people know what is coming now and will just blind defend it.
You can't blind counter 20 infestors
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On July 05 2011 02:39 Vashx wrote:Show nested quote +On July 04 2011 20:18 Chylouk wrote:
This build is good i have been watching him use it for some time on the ladders now but it dose seam to be week to constant aggression and anything that can get rid of the infestors energy.
Destiny also needs to think outside the box and start to do something different as people know what is coming now and will just blind defend it. You can't blind counter 20 infestors
good thing it's so late in the game you don't have to blind counter it, then.
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On July 05 2011 01:56 toofaraway wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 01:35 Aterons_toss wrote:Guess col is kinda sad that they didn't made the deal with Destiny. I would like to say that Bomber is kind of a noob getting owned by someone who isn't even considered pro but you gotta hand it to Destiny as well... insane games. He kinda overdid it with infestor imo  Like 45 infestors was just... too much. He got all of those infestors because energy is a renewable resource and thus, when playing a starvation style as he was, he is able to cause large amounts of damage without expending more money. It's a common strategy in games that go on that long.
I'm familiar with the strategy you're applying to Destiny's game, but regardless of how you look at it;45 infestors is way too much. You can see that alot of the infestors just got mowed down before even being able to use them.
In my opinion, he wanted that many infestors to make it difficult to emp all of them; which could have easily been done if he just spread them out. Bomber lost that game due to greed (made so many OC's when he was already up a base), lag (either that or Bomber is bad and has no reaction time), and not being familiar with the spanishiwa style (seldom do you see it in Korea).
*not to take away any credit from Destiny, it was a great game. I tune into his stream often, and have seen him do the build a lot cleaner.
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Game 3 was a lot cleaner than game 1.
Some key points in game 3:
1. He stopped all drone production at 44 drones, until he got his third up. I think this is actually very important. As zerg, I think the best plan is to never overdrone. You really don't need to. Terran and protoss need to overproduce workers because they can't produce a full base saturation in 1 production cycle. So what you want to do is sit on 44 drones, and then about 30ish seconds before your third is done, build another 24 to immediately have your new base fully saturated.
2. Spines everywhere. A bit latter in the game he threw down a bunch of spines at all his bases. Bomber had a medivac that flew around from base to base and the only place he found to drop was Destiny's nat, which had an army next to it.
3. Hiding lings on the other side of the map. In preparation of bombers big midgame marine tank push destiny had about half of his lings on the other side of the map. Once Bomber commited to the attack he flanked with those lings and got an incredible surround on bombers army. That excellent positioning combined with all the extra units from not spending larva on overdroning let him crush a very well timed attack by bomber.
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I think how Bomber started off game 1 is how he should've finished it. With just Zerglings I don't see how you'd deal with drops, and even foregoing the staple units in this matchup (banelings, mutas) for earlier infestors means you'll still only have them ready in decent # around 11-12 minutes (edit: more like 12-13 minutes if not later, providing your build goes smoothly). In any case there's a large enough window for a lot to happen before infestors are out. I'm sure Destiny had something in mind if he saw reactored/blue flame hellions, would've liked to see how he deals with it; I guess keep an eye out for Destiny in later matches 
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I don't see what's so amazing about this game. This is just a textbook example of why Terran needs to pressure zerg and not surrender the entire map to them until hive tech. With the way bomber played, I feel like Destiny could have done whatever he wanted and won because Bomber simply let him do so.
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The only success as Terran against this Style I have is going Mass MM which frees up gas for Medivacs Vikings and Ghosts.
The Marauders and Micro make Banlings less effective, and the High Medivac count makes it so I don't die to FG. Then the GHost to EMP the Infestors, and of course Vikings to snipe the BL ASAP.
Like in TvP you have to EMP before the spell go off or you lose. But also because of the hold effect you also have to pre spread your units.
Destiny's style is very solid. The key of it is stopping at 45 drones. This allows him to get the needed lings to stop the 1st push by Terran. As for Hellion play All He would have to do is make Spines and spread creep. Mass Lings on creep can easily deal with hellions.
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do people really watch the games before they posted?? any zerg would have gg'ed easily by bomber play style. bomber did (very) good response to destiny's play but you can tell he is afraid to move out attack maybe caused' by he doesnt have much experience against this kinda play.
congrats to steve sadly i dont watch him that much lately so i missed this live.
again, steve has very unique play style that imo can rolfstomp many really good players but once the oppo knows about his play style and did abit of homework to metagame him, wait and see steve rage *facepalm*
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You have to see the psychological side of this build.
You deny early scouting with first 2-4 Lings (I'd go for Lings with an extractor at 17 to afford the supply for the queen). Then you show him your 4 Lings, from there on the terran has basically to guess for some time what you're doing, it could be a high aggression bane bust so you steer the terran into turtling and overreacting to the 11 Overpool (with bunkers, whatnot).
But these are the only lings you produce for quite some time and you're rather safe to drone. I would only adapt this build to my playstyle with very early +1 and speed and lair, but other than that, great build.
On July 05 2011 03:29 Klystron wrote:
Game 3 was a lot cleaner than game 1.
Some key points in game 3:
1. He stopped all drone production at 44 drones, until he got his third up. I think this is actually very important. As zerg, I think the best plan is to never overdrone. You really don't need to. Terran and protoss need to overproduce workers because they can't produce a full base saturation in 1 production cycle. So what you want to do is sit on 44 drones, and then about 30ish seconds before your third is done, build another 24 to immediately have your new base fully saturated.
2. Spines everywhere. A bit latter in the game he threw down a bunch of spines at all his bases. Bomber had a medivac that flew around from base to base and the only place he found to drop was Destiny's nat, which had an army next to it.
3. Hiding lings on the other side of the map. In preparation of bombers big midgame marine tank push destiny had about half of his lings on the other side of the map. Once Bomber commited to the attack he flanked with those lings and got an incredible surround on bombers army. That excellent positioning combined with all the extra units from not spending larva on overdroning let him crush a very well timed attack by bomber.
1. I totally agree on that one. I always find it funny when pro commentators compare worker count or seeing zerg having more drones than saturation. It makes absolutely no sense at all. The instant you are saturated, you can switch to unit production. That is a great advantage of Zerg. You need NOT produce workers all the time like the other races.
However, you always need an extra base, even an empty one, because you WILL (and destiny did) end up in a situation where you crush the opponent on two base, then you WOULD spam drones but... you got no base to saturate. This is HUGELY bad and a lot of players fail to realize that.
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I'm not 100% sure but didn't destiny (on his stream) say this opening was really stupid and he kinda just went for it?
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@tuestresfat (nice nick^^): The last time I saw him talking about his build was that it's safe and allows him to be greedy... Basically it's Spanishiwa with an early pool...
I really like the build but I'm really asking myself why he didn't skipped a few Infestors and made banelings instead since Bomber played so marine heavy... Any suggestions of people that can see
more in this build then I do?
@Destiny: great games and your stream is just funny^^
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People spend too much time discussing Destiny's personality and get surprised when they see him actually play this well
This was a damn good match
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On July 05 2011 06:15 z00m wrote:
@tuestresfat (nice nick^^): The last time I saw him talking about his build was that it's safe and allows him to be greedy... Basically it's Spanishiwa with an early pool...
I really like the build but I'm really asking myself why he didn't skipped a few Infestors and made banelings instead since Bomber played so marine heavy... Any suggestions of people that can see
more in this build then I do?
@Destiny: great games and your stream is just funny^^
Cuz Bomber like many Korean Terrans has Gosu Marine Micro.
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@GinDo Nice theory but the exitence of Banes still threat T and gosu Marine spreading also makes Infestors more useless but without it( watch the games) FG'd Marines are still
a nice Target for Banes...
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Theres no doubt about it he has great Infestor micro. I don't see why you couldn't just do this build without the overpool, going to 14 pool 16 hatch and doing a variation like Morrows ZvP opening, by getting normal zergling speed upgrade and take the all other gases at like 45 supply with the early upgrades being prioritized before the lair.
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If he could improve his infestor micro just a little bit, split them up so he doesn't lose the energy on 6 infestors to 1 EMP... it didn't really matter because he had 15-25 infestors and Bomber would throw down great EMPs and his army would still die to mass fungal / IT / parasite... but if Destiny had split his infestors a little he would have won much sooner.
Mass infestors like 4 to a control group bring 4-5 groups in from different angles with speedlings... ouch. It would help neutralize marine / tank splitting a little at least.
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i just watched the vod and clearly Bomber didn't take the match seriously after he did so much initial damage. he could have easily just pushed with his army and killed destiny. instead he sieged the middle and took a third and 4th base. (bomber probably wanted to work on his lategame tvz rather than just push for a sure win). Then when the fighting commenced bomber for some reason decided not to replenish his army with the trillion reactor barracks he had and the 1.5k minerals he was floating.
Yes Destiny's build was interesting but Bomber had him beat easy. Destiny won only because bomber decided to mess around.
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Was I the only one that felt like Destiny was compensating for being weak against early 2 rax pressure? In Game 2 he scouted the 2 rax and he threw down not 1 but 2 spine crawlers (Day9 was not a fan of that move). Bomber made the right choice and just expanded when he saw it. Maybe Destiny doesn't think he can deal with Bomber's 2 rax pressure?
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On July 05 2011 06:38 z00m wrote:
@GinDo Nice theory but the exitence of Banes still threat T and gosu Marine spreading also makes Infestors more useless but without it( watch the games) FG'd Marines are still
a nice Target for Banes...
Marine Spread doesn't protect you from FG. It just Means Zerg has to use 2 FG instead of 1.
And Banes are super gas heavy this would lower his infestor count. Not to mention the Billion Tanks that Bomber made. Also the Lings were enough to clean the Marines with adrenaline and 3/3. Destiny had 3/3 and adrenaline before the flipping 15min. If he had made Banlings he would have severely delayed 3/3 and Hive Tech. Not to mention he got BL really quick, that would have also been delayed.
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EPT
