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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
Destiny opens with 11 Overpool to expand safely and fast teches into mass ling/infestor/broodlord play. Bomber-Destiny Game 3 (Game one and two also on youtube. However this is the most pure game). Probably Bomber was not used to this style, marine tank so far does not counter it  | ||
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Chylouk
United Kingdom30 Posts
Destiny also needs to think outside the box and start to do something different as people know what is coming now and will just blind defend it. | ||
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protheros
Portugal53 Posts
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Ahelvin
France1866 Posts
You also need to be very good with your early game larva/ressources management and be able to cut drones at 45... Interesting high-level zerg build. | ||
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whersmyspacebar
United States220 Posts
edit: also you cant be agressive with this build as zerg, so taking a quick 3rd can't be punished | ||
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Dan885
United States35 Posts
this was an amazing game with american ingenuity beating a TOP TOP level korean nothing i love seeing more :D congrats Destiny on your great win | ||
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Jarlax
76 Posts
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nekolux
Singapore38 Posts
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mustache
Switzerland309 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Premier
United States503 Posts
I'm not trying to take anything away from Destiny, congratulations on playing great and winning with a unique style. | ||
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Hollis
United States505 Posts
On July 05 2011 01:00 mustache wrote: pretty common knowledge that terrans are having a very hard time against infestor broodlords. Not as hard a time as zerg vs protoss deathball methinks. User was warned for this post | ||
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R4TM
Brazil140 Posts
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FlaminGinjaNinja
United Kingdom879 Posts
The early pool is for an early queen to get injections going quicker, it's also safer against early aggression. Constant aggression does beat this since the lings tend to die very quickly and you need a couple of rounds of injections to get the numbers back up, also the energy on the infestors takes a while to come back. I especially like this style of play because of the fast hive, i usually get ultras but i think after watching this that broods would be better | ||
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shiNe.
Canada120 Posts
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Ghad
Norway2551 Posts
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ETisME
12387 Posts
On July 05 2011 01:03 Premier wrote: It's a great build... if you're not prepared for it like Bomber was. Since he had no idea what was coming, he got absolutely rolled, but the zerg cant be aggressive with harassment (no mutas) and have slow lings for a long time, which is abusable by taking drops and expanding frequently. Because the zerg cant put out much pressure, the terran would be free to take map control. I'm not trying to take anything away from Destiny, congratulations on playing great and winning with a unique style. He used the icefisher build, pretty sure spanishwa has shown how well it can defend most form of aggression with it just with the slow lings. I also don't agree with "no harassment". If you watched game 1 and game 3, you would see how much aggression lings and infestors can do, while it also allows him to delay any type of marine tank push. Having mass infestors is a much different approach to "aggression" in comparison to muta. Not only does the terran has to worried about burrowed infestors inside their base, but also infested terran can do so much tricks with tanks splash damage (breaking down the missile turrets, splashing own tanks, allowing the tanks' first shots to the eggs rather than the lings etc) Not to mention he doesn't need any banelings to deal with marines, saving up even more gas for more infestors and faster tier 3 units (the quick hive) which benefits tons from infestors. | ||
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SirMilford
Australia1269 Posts
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
I would like to say that Bomber is kind of a noob getting owned by someone who isn't even considered pro but you gotta hand it to Destiny as well... insane games. He kinda overdid it with infestor imo  Like 45 infestors was just... too much. | ||
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McGuire72
Canada140 Posts
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toofaraway
United States15 Posts
On July 05 2011 01:35 Aterons_toss wrote: Guess col is kinda sad that they didn't made the deal with Destiny. I would like to say that Bomber is kind of a noob getting owned by someone who isn't even considered pro but you gotta hand it to Destiny as well... insane games. He kinda overdid it with infestor imo Like 45 infestors was just... too much.He got all of those infestors because energy is a renewable resource and thus, when playing a starvation style as he was, he is able to cause large amounts of damage without expending more money. It's a common strategy in games that go on that long. | ||
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Ceedub
5 Posts
On July 05 2011 01:37 McGuire72 wrote: In my opinion this is still very weak to early-game timings from the Terran; if you watch game one of the series Bomber almost wins within the first 10 or so minutes with just a standard two medivac + marine drop in Destiny's natural. Bomber should have one that game. He basically just sat there and let Destiny catch up when he could have finished him off after that drop. | ||
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Vashx
United States24 Posts
On July 04 2011 20:18 Chylouk wrote: This build is good i have been watching him use it for some time on the ladders now but it dose seam to be week to constant aggression and anything that can get rid of the infestors energy. Destiny also needs to think outside the box and start to do something different as people know what is coming now and will just blind defend it. You can't blind counter 20 infestors | ||
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Eknoid4
United States902 Posts
good thing it's so late in the game you don't have to blind counter it, then. | ||
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PrimoAr
Canada10 Posts
On July 05 2011 01:56 toofaraway wrote: He got all of those infestors because energy is a renewable resource and thus, when playing a starvation style as he was, he is able to cause large amounts of damage without expending more money. It's a common strategy in games that go on that long. I'm familiar with the strategy you're applying to Destiny's game, but regardless of how you look at it;45 infestors is way too much. You can see that alot of the infestors just got mowed down before even being able to use them. In my opinion, he wanted that many infestors to make it difficult to emp all of them; which could have easily been done if he just spread them out. Bomber lost that game due to greed (made so many OC's when he was already up a base), lag (either that or Bomber is bad and has no reaction time), and not being familiar with the spanishiwa style (seldom do you see it in Korea). *not to take away any credit from Destiny, it was a great game. I tune into his stream often, and have seen him do the build a lot cleaner. | ||
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Klystron
United States99 Posts
Some key points in game 3: 1. He stopped all drone production at 44 drones, until he got his third up. I think this is actually very important. As zerg, I think the best plan is to never overdrone. You really don't need to. Terran and protoss need to overproduce workers because they can't produce a full base saturation in 1 production cycle. So what you want to do is sit on 44 drones, and then about 30ish seconds before your third is done, build another 24 to immediately have your new base fully saturated. 2. Spines everywhere. A bit latter in the game he threw down a bunch of spines at all his bases. Bomber had a medivac that flew around from base to base and the only place he found to drop was Destiny's nat, which had an army next to it. 3. Hiding lings on the other side of the map. In preparation of bombers big midgame marine tank push destiny had about half of his lings on the other side of the map. Once Bomber commited to the attack he flanked with those lings and got an incredible surround on bombers army. That excellent positioning combined with all the extra units from not spending larva on overdroning let him crush a very well timed attack by bomber. | ||
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flanksteak
Canada246 Posts
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KiLL_ORdeR
United States1518 Posts
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GinDo
3327 Posts
The Marauders and Micro make Banlings less effective, and the High Medivac count makes it so I don't die to FG. Then the GHost to EMP the Infestors, and of course Vikings to snipe the BL ASAP. Like in TvP you have to EMP before the spell go off or you lose. But also because of the hold effect you also have to pre spread your units. Destiny's style is very solid. The key of it is stopping at 45 drones. This allows him to get the needed lings to stop the 1st push by Terran. As for Hellion play All He would have to do is make Spines and spread creep. Mass Lings on creep can easily deal with hellions. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
congrats to steve sadly i dont watch him that much lately so i missed this live.again, steve has very unique play style that imo can rolfstomp many really good players but once the oppo knows about his play style and did abit of homework to metagame him, wait and see steve rage *facepalm* | ||
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Mahtasooma
Germany475 Posts
You deny early scouting with first 2-4 Lings (I'd go for Lings with an extractor at 17 to afford the supply for the queen). Then you show him your 4 Lings, from there on the terran has basically to guess for some time what you're doing, it could be a high aggression bane bust so you steer the terran into turtling and overreacting to the 11 Overpool (with bunkers, whatnot). But these are the only lings you produce for quite some time and you're rather safe to drone. I would only adapt this build to my playstyle with very early +1 and speed and lair, but other than that, great build. On July 05 2011 03:29 Klystron wrote: Game 3 was a lot cleaner than game 1. Some key points in game 3: 1. He stopped all drone production at 44 drones, until he got his third up. I think this is actually very important. As zerg, I think the best plan is to never overdrone. You really don't need to. Terran and protoss need to overproduce workers because they can't produce a full base saturation in 1 production cycle. So what you want to do is sit on 44 drones, and then about 30ish seconds before your third is done, build another 24 to immediately have your new base fully saturated. 2. Spines everywhere. A bit latter in the game he threw down a bunch of spines at all his bases. Bomber had a medivac that flew around from base to base and the only place he found to drop was Destiny's nat, which had an army next to it. 3. Hiding lings on the other side of the map. In preparation of bombers big midgame marine tank push destiny had about half of his lings on the other side of the map. Once Bomber commited to the attack he flanked with those lings and got an incredible surround on bombers army. That excellent positioning combined with all the extra units from not spending larva on overdroning let him crush a very well timed attack by bomber. 1. I totally agree on that one. I always find it funny when pro commentators compare worker count or seeing zerg having more drones than saturation. It makes absolutely no sense at all. The instant you are saturated, you can switch to unit production. That is a great advantage of Zerg. You need NOT produce workers all the time like the other races. However, you always need an extra base, even an empty one, because you WILL (and destiny did) end up in a situation where you crush the opponent on two base, then you WOULD spam drones but... you got no base to saturate. This is HUGELY bad and a lot of players fail to realize that. | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
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z00m
Germany22 Posts
I really like the build but I'm really asking myself why he didn't skipped a few Infestors and made banelings instead since Bomber played so marine heavy... Any suggestions of people that can see more in this build then I do? @Destiny: great games and your stream is just funny^^ | ||
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Tweleve
United States644 Posts
This was a damn good match | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On July 05 2011 06:15 z00m wrote: @tuestresfat (nice nick^^): The last time I saw him talking about his build was that it's safe and allows him to be greedy... Basically it's Spanishiwa with an early pool... I really like the build but I'm really asking myself why he didn't skipped a few Infestors and made banelings instead since Bomber played so marine heavy... Any suggestions of people that can see more in this build then I do? @Destiny: great games and your stream is just funny^^ Cuz Bomber like many Korean Terrans has Gosu Marine Micro. | ||
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z00m
Germany22 Posts
a nice Target for Banes... | ||
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WArped
United Kingdom4845 Posts
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
Mass infestors like 4 to a control group bring 4-5 groups in from different angles with speedlings... ouch. It would help neutralize marine / tank splitting a little at least. | ||
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RedMosquito
United States280 Posts
Yes Destiny's build was interesting but Bomber had him beat easy. Destiny won only because bomber decided to mess around. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3188 Posts
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On July 05 2011 06:38 z00m wrote: @GinDo Nice theory but the exitence of Banes still threat T and gosu Marine spreading also makes Infestors more useless but without it( watch the games) FG'd Marines are still a nice Target for Banes... Marine Spread doesn't protect you from FG. It just Means Zerg has to use 2 FG instead of 1. And Banes are super gas heavy this would lower his infestor count. Not to mention the Billion Tanks that Bomber made. Also the Lings were enough to clean the Marines with adrenaline and 3/3. Destiny had 3/3 and adrenaline before the flipping 15min. If he had made Banlings he would have severely delayed 3/3 and Hive Tech. Not to mention he got BL really quick, that would have also been delayed. | ||
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Versioned
United Kingdom73 Posts
On July 05 2011 01:35 Aterons_toss wrote: Guess col is kinda sad that they didn't made the deal with Destiny. I would like to say that Bomber is kind of a noob getting owned by someone who isn't even considered pro but you gotta hand it to Destiny as well... insane games. He kinda overdid it with infestor imo Like 45 infestors was just... too much.Theres never to much infestors, they need looking at for balance imo | ||
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Ziggitz
United States340 Posts
On July 05 2011 06:38 z00m wrote: @GinDo Nice theory but the exitence of Banes still threat T and gosu Marine spreading also makes Infestors more useless but without it( watch the games) FG'd Marines are still a nice Target for Banes... 2/2 lings utterly devastate spread out 0/1 marines. 2 Zerglings are very cost effective against one marine, as the numbers go up the available surface area goes down and marines become extremely cost effective. Infestors destroy clumped up marines but can't deal out the damage when they're spread out but that gives them too much surface area and the lings kill them. That's why he didn't need banelings. Also going for banelings AND infestors would leave no gas for teching to hive and getting mass upgrades as well as having too much redundancy. | ||
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Lando
Canada42 Posts
I feel like as zerg when you see no aggression from your opponent (with good scouting of course) you should only be making drones or teching to get ahead. I believe I've even seen Destiny play this same low econ style against a forge FE protoss, which I highly disagree with, even though his micro has won him those games. My point is, you can play a ling/infestor style with high economy just as well when you take advantage of opportunities to drone up. I've seen Morrow and Dimaga do this very effectively combined with their sick infestor plays. All points aside, this was a very well played series by Destiny, who continues to show steady improvement in his play . | ||
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Vaporized
United States1471 Posts
On July 05 2011 07:18 Lando wrote: I love everything about Destiny's build, the fast upgrades, infestor play and the early hive for broodlords. However one thing that bugs me is the low economy style and cutting workers. Zerg has the ability to produce workers faster than any of the two other races, and not taking advantage of that makes me feel that it's the only thing holding Destiny back from being an even better player. I feel like as zerg when you see no aggression from your opponent (with good scouting of course) you should only be making drones or teching to get ahead. I believe I've even seen Destiny play this same low econ style against a forge FE protoss, which I highly disagree with, even though his micro has won him those games. My point is, you can play a ling/infestor style with high economy just as well when you take advantage of opportunities to drone up. I've seen Morrow and Dimaga do this very effectively combined with their sick infestor plays. All points aside, this was a very well played series by Destiny, who continues to show steady improvement in his play .lol what? he has obviously settled on a low drone count. and he obviously had more then enough units. you dont need 90 drones to win. | ||
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BinxyBrown
United States230 Posts
I think a hatch first opener with a spine would set him up for a more solid mid game, I think his mid game drone cut is a smart move when going for infestor centric play since you don't need than many drones to support it, your limited by gas not minerals, and once he is safe he can double expand and saturate quickly because infestors are such a larva light unit. I feel like the style is still weak against multi prong drops, and has some timing holes like we saw in game 2, although he was at a huge economic disadvantage in that game as well because he made 2 spines to deal with the rax play. Game 3 his 1/1 finished and he had a good surround vs marines that were split to provide more surface area which put him in a huge lead so I personally just ignore the rest of the game cause bomber was so far behind. That being said I am really looking forward to more top level zergs experimenting with this type of play and it becoming more refined and impressive as time goes on. | ||
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crocodile
United States615 Posts
Things that beat ling-infestor early-mid game: -2 rax pressure to set Zerg behind, followed by a marine tank push sometime in the following 5 minutes which hits before infestors, and sometimes even ling speed if they delay gas, are out. -blue flame hellion drops. Absolutely no way to handle this effectively with lings and it hits away before infestors are out. -Hellion harass into banshee harass, or straight up 2 port banshee. Muta/baneling openers shut all of these down, infestors do not. As for mid-late game, ghosts are great in a straight up fight, and multi-pronged 16-marine drops completely dismantle any zvt style that doesn't involve mutas. Terrans will figure this out soon enough. The trick to beating powerful but slow units like infestors, colossus, or mech is and always has been to not engage them directly. | ||
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Saracen
United States5139 Posts
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