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I haven’t seen polls like this in a while, and with new maps and new patches through 1.3.3 maybe it’s time for it. And with the recent super early 3 rax cheese to GM thread, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=223517, I have been thinking about cheese and early game all-ins more. Exposure is the best way to either find solutions, educate the curious, show what is weak or strong, or maybe even show something that is a little too strong at certain levels. I also think educating the less competitive about unforgiving but scoutable early play only helps SC2 increase in popularity. Everybody has some friends who play casually, but are turned off from ladder from losing too much to things they don’t understand.
Personally, extreme cheese isn’t my favorite tactic, but it’s an important part of the game and I want to understand it more. Moreover, I am very curious about the TL opinion on this. A few polls to follow.
Which race matchups has best results with cheese or 1 base all-ins, but doesn’t necessarily depend on them?
Poll: Which race matchups has best results with cheese or 1 base all-ins, buPvP (77) 44% PvZ (25) 14% TvZ (24) 14% TvP (17) 10% ZvP (12) 7% PvT (8) 5% ZvZ (8) 5% ZvT (2) 1% TvT (1) 1% 174 total votes Your vote: Which race matchups has best results with cheese or 1 base all-ins, bu (Vote): PvP
(Vote): PvZ
(Vote): PvT
(Vote): ZvP
(Vote): ZvZ
(Vote): ZvT
(Vote): TvP
(Vote): TvZ
(Vote): TvT
Which racial matchups depend more on cheese or 1 base all-ins? To put a number on it, let’s say the race has to use cheese or 1 base all-ins 50% of the time or more to have a good win percentage on ladder or a shot at winning a tournament? In other words, what race is forced to cheese?
Poll: Which racial matchups depend more on cheese or 1 base all-ins? To put PvP (63) 64% PvZ (9) 9% TvZ (8) 8% ZvP (6) 6% ZvZ (6) 6% TvP (6) 6% TvT (1) 1% PvT (0) 0% ZvT (0) 0% 99 total votes Your vote: Which racial matchups depend more on cheese or 1 base all-ins? To put (Vote): PvP
(Vote): PvZ
(Vote): PvT
(Vote): ZvP
(Vote): ZvZ
(Vote): ZvT
(Vote): TvP
(Vote): TvZ
(Vote): TvT
How many decent, meaning usable on ladder or tournaments, early cheese and 1 base all-ins can you name per race? If a cheese is usable in two matchups, count it twice.
Example: Cannon rush counts as 2 because it can work against P and Z but you never see it vs T (or do you?).
Protoss:
Poll: How many decent early cheese/ 1 base all-ins for Protoss?P has 14 or more (49) 57% P has 1 to 5 (22) 26% P has 6 to 9 (8) 9% P has 10 to 13 (7) 8% 86 total votes Your vote: How many decent early cheese/ 1 base all-ins for Protoss? (Vote): P has 1 to 5
(Vote): P has 6 to 9
(Vote): P has 10 to 13
(Vote): P has 14 or more
Zerg:
Poll: How many decent cheese/1 base allin per Zerg?Z has 1 to 5 (66) 69% Z has 14 or more (16) 17% Z has 6 to 9 (11) 11% Z has 10 to 13 (3) 3% 96 total votes Your vote: How many decent cheese/1 base allin per Zerg? (Vote): Z has 1 to 5
(Vote): Z has 6 to 9
(Vote): Z has 10 to 13
(Vote): Z has 14 or more
Terran:
Poll: How many Terran cheeses and 1 base allins?T has 14 or more (66) 73% T has 10 to 13 (11) 12% T has 1 to 5 (8) 9% T has 6 to 9 (5) 6% 90 total votes Your vote: How many Terran cheeses and 1 base allins? (Vote): T has 1 to 5
(Vote): T has 6 to 9
(Vote): T has 10 to 13
(Vote): T has 14 or more
The flipside to standard cheesey play, which race has better options to recovery from cheese or cheese in an economic manner... I’ll call it “economic cheese”? Possible examples (these aren’t proven and may be completely incorrect... but I need examples): Zerg can 10 pool pressure to force a Protoss wall-in, then expand and drone heavily to come out ahead. Protoss can build a stargate, show one phoenix, then immediately transition to colossus to be safe while using stored chronos on probes and pull way ahead economically. Terran can bunker rush or stim rush, then expand to gold and drop saved Mules.
Poll: Which race has best economic cheese?T (87) 78% Z (19) 17% P (5) 5% 111 total votes Your vote: Which race has best economic cheese? (Vote): P
(Vote): Z
(Vote): T
For all cheeses and 1 base all-ins... list the ones you can name or link to threads or articles that explain them. Feel free to include your position in ladder if you want to show what perspective you are coming from.
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pvz/zvp the most chesseable matchup :D
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can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
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Please let's not use the results as excuses to whine!
Instead lets look at how the results here reflect how volatile each matchup is.
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On May 19 2011 01:03 Shiladie wrote:
Please let's not use the results as excuses to whine!
Instead lets look at how the results here reflect how volatile each matchup is.
dont expect these results to be unbiased, random player results. they reflect which race has the most fans more than anything.
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On May 19 2011 01:03 Shiladie wrote:
Please let's not use the results as excuses to whine!
Instead lets look at how the results here reflect how volatile each matchup is.
Not whining, i just feel that 14+ cheese/1base allins from T is abit exaggerated
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On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
just vs zerg:
2 rax bunker rush
4 rax pure marine
Fake expand into marine marauder timing
fast reactor helions
fast blue flame at front
fast blue flame drop
fast banshee
Thorship
need I go on?
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I think the classifications are too strict and reflect poorly on Zerg early game.
Zerg 2-base functions mostly the same as everybody elses 1-base play, so they are naturally going to have very few options if you are restricting yourself by # of bases rather than # of workers.
Either way, Terran gets my vote for economic cheese just by having the MULE.
As soon as you make your first OC, you're immediately mining on 2 more patches without even having to expand. That's some effective economy gain.
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as long as you do not define "cheese" its hard to rate anything.
i tried to take part in the poll, so i took a few minutes to think about what could be cheese and what could be a viable strategy and my conclusion is that there are only strategies.
i also tried to count the "allins" from all the races but i never got near a number of 10 o_0
you better go play some ladder than post in forums....imho
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On May 19 2011 01:06 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
just vs zerg: 2 rax bunker rush 4 rax pure marine Fake expand into marine marauder timing fast reactor helions fast blue flame at front fast blue flame drop fast banshee Thorship need I go on?
fast reactor hellions into CC is(or was) a standard mech strat,i dont see how fast hellions is cheese at all.
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On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
2rax pull scv, 2 rax bunker rush, 2 rax proxy
6 mega rax (or 3-5 with stim timing)
rush/proxy banshee (2 port and/or cloak)
1 base/2 base rush tank marine contain
4OC "hide-behind-wall" economy cheese
1rax/2rax fast marauder proxy
... the list goes on
EDIT: @ above, beat me to the punch, but some of those aren't cheese?
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On May 19 2011 01:06 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
just vs zerg: 2 rax bunker rush 4 rax pure marine Fake expand into marine marauder timing fast reactor helions fast blue flame at front fast blue flame drop fast banshee Thorship need I go on?
eh? Lets not start the "definition of cheese" debate... but most of those are just openings. Reactor hellions, blue flame hellions, fast banshee?
But anyways, it's impossible to count the amount of all-in cheeses because what separates one build from another?
Also, the answer to some of these questions are so obvious, seems kinda wierd to ask them.
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Can someone please explain to us what are the 14+ different DECENT 1 base all in that you know. Because I guess we need your knowledge on here...
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Which race has the best economic cheese? You mean which race can blindly expand and have poor defense in the hope that their opponent doesn't react?
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On May 19 2011 01:06 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
just vs zerg: 2 rax bunker rush 4 rax pure marine Fake expand into marine marauder timing fast reactor helions fast blue flame at front fast blue flame drop fast banshee Thorship need I go on?
You're just calling every T opener a cheese. Opening with hellions isn't a cheese, neither is opening with a 2 rax or with a banshee. The entire concept of the matchup is to open with certain tech that either does damage or forces a response.
Edit: Other people were faster /cry!
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On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
3-4rax stim allin*3, 2port cloaked banshee*1(vs Z), tank/marine/banshee allin*2(vs Z and P), 5-7rax allin*3, hellion/marauder allin*1(vs Z), marine/SCV allin*2(vs T and Z), Thor rush*2 (vs T & P, though it can work vs Z too), blue flame hellions drop*3...
maybe others might find even more stuff..
and I don't want to argue about how good some of them are, they are cheeses, they should have only a low winrate (if they had ~50%, standard play would be useless...)
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On May 19 2011 01:01 thoradycus wrote:
can someone who voted "14+" for T tell me 14+ cheese/allin strats? I'm struggling to think of 14+...
If a cheese is usable in two matchups, count it twice.
Example: Cannon rush counts as 2 because it can work against P and Z but you never see it vs T (or do you?).
by this rule, terran has at least 30% more 1 base options than toss, and double compared to zerg
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On May 19 2011 01:04 Skyze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 01:03 Shiladie wrote:
Please let's not use the results as excuses to whine!
Instead lets look at how the results here reflect how volatile each matchup is. dont expect these results to be unbiased, random player results. they reflect which race has the most fans more than anything.
Well, not everybody is unbiased or tries to be. But maybe through discussion we can see where to concentrate if we want to play defensively or when we need to consider cheesing even if it's against our normal style.
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On May 19 2011 01:09 Jermstuddog wrote:
I think the classifications are too strict and reflect poorly on Zerg early game.
Zerg 2-base functions mostly the same as everybody elses 1-base play, so they are naturally going to have very few options if you are restricting yourself by # of bases rather than # of workers.
Either way, Terran gets my vote for economic cheese just by having the MULE.
As soon as you make your first OC, you're immediately mining on 2 more patches without even having to expand. That's some effective economy gain.
Good point... I was sort of thinking along those lines but never figured out how to put it down correctly in the polls. Number of workers is not a bad way to look at it.
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I'd love to see someone manage to list 14 Protoss cheeses/1base allins.
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EPT
