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Guide to Building a Budget PC

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Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 11:09:16
March 16 2011 19:12 GMT
#1
Belial's Awesome Starcraft 2 Budget PC Building Guide (for under $400!)

Due to this thread where so many gave feedback and helped me build a PC, and the fact no good guide exists for budget building or explains how to judge each component:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=188036

The key to building a PC is buying smart, and here I will teach you how to evaluate every component so you can do that. Too often I see advice saying "SPEND MONEY" but not understanding why; just as a caveman thinks, 'it works'. This guide is focused on Starcraft 2 performance, but will work well for any game out today. You don't need to be a PC guru to build a PC, the hard part is that the information does not exist all in one place and that hardware is constantly outdated.

The good news is that building a budget PC will yield amazing results these days, being able to play all of todays games respectably, and that spending three times as much won't even get you twice the performance boost. For this reason, we will not talk about Intel or what the best of the best is, as quite simply, it's impractical to buy an i7 today. The performance on them will not be used until 2 years from now, in which case you can buy an i7 for a quarter of the price, and newer CPU's will be out that are better, and cheaper. My advice - buy a $400 PC today, buy a $400 PC in 3 years, be able to play everything on max settings, and still spent less than an i7 $1500 system. Having an i7 today is just as useful as having an i7 10 years ago - there's just no point to it.

However, don't turn away rich kids - I will tell you how to build a great system for cheap, not because we are skimping, but because we know what we need. By knowing that your system doesn't need as much power, or that SLI is stupid, or that despite having 2400mhz RAM, or that SC2 only needs a dualcore, we can save a lot of money.

There are 7 parts to this guide, for each component. I will tell you what you need for an amazing Starcraft2 Computer, what you get by spending less or more, and what you need to look for when you buy each component, in terms of quality, performance, and reliability. Note this guide is written with many components bought in America, so the specific recommended parts and brands may not be compatible for those outside the US, but the information contained herein will be useful to anyone so they know how to buy what they need.

The CPU
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Starcraft 2 is a CPU intensive video game, compared to the majority of games which are GPU intensive (think Halo, Crysis, Bioshock). As such, this is where you want to spend your money, if anywhere - although the way the market is right now, there is really only 2 or 3 choices. This may be in contrast to most gaming computers, where you generally want to spend a little more on the GPU instead of the CPU. At the moment, Intel chips are a little too expensive to be worth it if you are just playing Starcraft 2 - so although there is no argument they are the best, the Athlon II series is the best value today. At the time of this guide, $80 is pretty much the most you'd need to spend on a CPU, so either get a Sandy Bridge when prices drop, spend more than $80 and know you will never have a problem with SC2, or get one of the CPU's I explicitly recommend in this guide when prices are even lower on them and build your PC for even cheaper.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/starcraft-ii-radeon-geforce,2728.html
This article will explain a lot, but the summation is that SC2 is optimized for dualcore @ 3ghz. See, when a game is made, it is made with the specs in mind of when they began designing the game - usually this is 2 to 5 years. So, when a game is released, you could say it is already 'outdated' from a hardware perspective. This is good news for the budget builder, as many good options exist today.

The minimum CPU you want to play SC2 with no problems is a Dualcore 3.0ghz, or an Athlon II X2 Regor. SC2 gains a huge boost from single to dual core, an insignificant boost from dual to tri, and a 'larger' insignificant boost from tri to quad. SC2 likes cache space, but an L3 cache will only yield about 0.3ghz performance boost, so you can usually find an Athlon II with no Level 3 cache memory that's much faster, for cheaper. In short, there is no reason to buy a CPU with level 3 cache memory (also note, not all Phenom's have L3 cache, which is kind of a sketchy marketing trick by AMD as that is the only difference between the 'flagship' Phenom II and the Athlon II).

I recommend, however, that if you want to spend money anywhere, spend an extra ~$15 to get the Athlon II X3 450 (or 440, 445). With the Athlon II X3 450, you will be able to play everything on Max settings, with no problem ever (I will discuss overclocking at the end). Basically, you can justify an extra core to be about 0.5ghz in speed added, although this isn't exact considering SC2 is optimized for only dualcore and that speed vs core count affects performance differently, so just take it as a rough estimation.

The Athlon II X2 Regor is about $60, and the Athlon II X3 Rana is about $79 or less depending on the speed. The next best AMD chip, a Phenom X4 is about $125, meaning about $40 for just an L3 cache, or roughly 300mhz increase in speed, which is a pretty bad speed to price ratio, and the Intel I3-2100 is just a better buy at the same price. Considering that the Athlon II series will play Starcraft 2 at max settings, there isn't a Starcraft 2 reason to pay the price premium. In short, an Athlon II is the best. There are many articles out today saying the Athlon II X3 450 is the best deal CPU for the money today as well.

The Motherboard
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crappy taiwanese Orkos electrolytic capacitors, no wonder they blew out. Many of today's motherboards have these, even 'high end' ones, on where it counts, the VRM, so be careful when you buy! Even the motherboard I have, has them, although not on the VRM where it counts.

What many people fail to understand is that as the PSU is important for supplying power to the system, the motherboard is just as important as supplying power to the CPU. This is so important, and we will save this for last in this section.

Least importantly, make sure everything fits. There really isn't much to this.

First, make sure the Motherboard has at least one PCI-Ex16 (key word x16) slot for a GPU video card. SLI/Crossfire, NVidia and Radeon's take on using multiple graphics cards, are stupid. Plain and simple, there is no reason to do it for the budget, or rational, PC builder. You do not get a 200% performance, you get somewhere between 110% to 160%, the average around 140% (according to most review sites). The extra heat can cause your system to slow down as increased heat over a certain point, generally regarded to be around 60*C, causes system parts to slow down, and the extra power you will need to invest in a heavier PSU will make the price not worth it compared to single card solutions. You may think you may one day use it, when you can get a 2nd outdated, old card to go with your outdated single card - this is stupid, just sell your card and get a single, better card. In 2 years, when you think of doing Crossfire/SLI, cards 2x the performance will drop in price to be more affordable and a better solution.

Second, the Northbridge. This isn't important anymore considering that CPU's today now have the Memory Controller built into them, talking directly to the RAM as opposed to before. The only reason to pick one Northbridge over another is if you're interested in overclocking. The difference between most northbridges is if they can support a GPU (revealed by a PCI-Ex16 slot) and if they can overclock (usually made obvious by details on the motherboard page). Generally, motherboard companies understand that people buying just the motherboard for building a PC like to overclock, so you probably won't have a situation where the motherboard that can overclock is cheaper than one with a northbridge that can't.

Third, the form factor. Make sure it fits your case - if the Motherboard is ATX, make sure the case is ATX or bigger. You can search this, but it's pretty straightforward. The only difference in Micro-ATX motherboards is they are smaller, generally, this means less RAM slots and less PCI-E slots. As long as it has a single PCI-Ex16 slot, and 2 RAM slots, that is all you need. There is only so much RAM you need these days, and 2 slots is more than enough. I already talked about PCI-Ex16 slots. In short, there is no reason to avoid Micro-ATX, if you so happen to find a good deal on it.

Back to what's important on a motherboard: The Voltage Regulator Module. Sound complicated? It's because it is! This is what supplies a delicate amount of Power Width Modulation to your CPU in bursts of 12v based on binary demands of the CPU, which is controlled independently on each channel by a mosfet driver transistor, which is then linked to a set of capacitors. Huh?

So you need to make sure that your motherboard can support your CPU. Do not just look at the details page, as it can be misleading. When people say their motherboard 'fried', they generally mean their VRM fried out.

This link is great for seeing what a motherboard is rated to support:
http://www.overclock.net/amd-motherboards/946407-amd-motherboard-power-phase-list.html

Generally, dual or tri core CPU's have a THERMAL DESIGN POWER (TDP) of 95w, and quadcores have a TDP of 125w. When you overclock or unlock, this power need goes up.

If you plan to go quadcore or overclock, or both, you need to have a quality board. First, most importantly, you need multiple channels. This can be indicated by the number of square blocks with a few letters on them. The channels are usually referred to as "X+1" which means CPU Power + CPU-Northbridge Power. 3+1 you should avoid completely, 4+1 is okay, and 8+1 is great. Secondly, you need "Ferrite" Chokes - which are square blocks - don't consider anything else. If you don't see square blocks, you don't see a motherboard. Third, you want 'Solid Capacitors" - make sure the cylinders by the VRM are, well, smooth and 'solid', and not 'wrapped' (understandable when you look at a motherboard). Third and a half, by the way, IF you have electrolytic capacitors, the kind that are 'wrapped' and not 'solid', you want to make sure they are Japanese - again, beyond the scope of the thread, but just search the words on the the capacitor to see the brand; for some reason Japanese capacitors are very high quality but Taiwanese and Chinese are crap. Fourth, you want those little chipsets, or MOSFETS, to have 4 'legs' instead of 3 'legs' with the center one cut (a feature of efficiency known as RDS on). Fifth, a board that uses an 8 pin power supply port is better than one that uses 4 pins. Sixth, you want your motherboard to have only 2 mosfet 3 or 4 legged chips instead of 3 identical mosfet chips - this is because cheap motherboards will use a 3rd mosfet chip instead of a 3rd, different chip called a "mosfet driver" to handle the voltage flow on the mosfet chips. You can usually identify Mosfet driver chips as the 8 legged chipsets, and even the cheapest boards have a single driver at the 'bottom' of the VRM. Finally, a heatsink on the VRM is important. You can add a few of these up to make an acceptable motherboard, but if your motherboard of choice is "no' to all of these, avoid it. The difference is that certain VRM's run hotter or cooler, and some handle heat better or worse. All the quality in VRM comes down to how hot they run and how they deal with the heat.
http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Everything-You-Need-to-Know-About-The-Motherboard-Voltage-Regulator-Circuit/616/1

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The squares are called chokes, and in this case are 'ferrite' - good. The cylinders are capacitors, and in this case 'solid' - good. There is only 5 chokes, so it's probably 4+1 channels as opposed to 8+1 - not good. The mosfet chipsets, or those flat computer chips, have 3 legs with the center cut instead of 4 - not good. To be very in-depth and technical and beyond the scope of this thread, the mosfets are Nikos, which are horrible and no wonder no one likes MSI motherboards and they blow out all the time - not good. No heatsink - not good. 4 Pin white power supply port instead of 8 pin - not good.

Also, avoid MSI motherboards. It's beyond the scope of this thread to discuss why, but basically they have horrible quality VRMs.

If you do not plan to overclock/unlock, do not worry, just get what you can afford. If you are pro like me, you can attach heatsinks to your motherboard or even replace your mosfet chipsets with soldering, along with spot cooling. But generally, try to at least get 4+1 with solid capacitors, and if you are a genuine overclocker, get a board with 8+1 or heatsinks. You can also just buy copper 'chipset' heatsinks for $8 along with thermal tape, and attach them to the heatsinks.

For example, I bought a Athlon II X3 + Biostar A770E3 combo. My mobo has 3+1(bad), Ferrite chokes(good), solid capacitors(good), 3 legged mosfets with no RDS on(bad), 4 pin PSU port (bad), and no 8 legged mosfet chip driver but a 3rd 3 legged mosfet chip (bad), with no heatsink, suffice to say, even though it's 'rated' to be okay for 125w/quadcores, it's probably not advisable to do so. I sawed up an old heatsink and taped it on to help, but if my motherboard blew out I wouldn't be surprised. The price was good and I didn't know better at the time.
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my custom VRM heatsink

The GPU
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Now, SC2 is CPU limited - but if your PC can play at minimum settings but struggles at higher settings, that is because of the GPU. This may sound obvious, but when you go for higher graphics settings, that is all on your GPU. Now if you struggle at low settings, that is a CPU issue.

The best card out for the money today is the GTX 460 768mb, no argument about it. Having 1GB or more of VRAM is unnecessary, as Starcraft2 Ultra only uses 512mb and Extreme, which only applies in single player and is insignificant, will still look good on 768mb. I've seen this at $95 (that same card is back to $150 now) but you can get an MSI 460 for $126 right now. This is a relatively powerhungry card. However, it is complete overkill for SC2. Get this if you can afford it, no doubt, otherwise we have 3 other players:

GT430 - a pretty bad card, relatively, but if you can find this in a combo with a decent PSU, Motherboard, or anything, and have the relative price of this card at under $30, it's a great contender. It will play Medium.

Radeon 4830 - this card will play on High settings unless at max resolutions, and at around $60, a great deal.

Radeon 4850 - at around $80, this is probably the best card to get not just for a budget build, but for any computer made just for Starcraft 2. This card can arguably play on all settings maxed, with a sacrifice in a few settings only if you play at higher resolutions. If you are playing at 'medium' resolutions (around 1400 or less pixel width) this card will be the best choice.

Here, a great article benchmarking all of today's GPUs in relative performance. The above tomshardware article is useful too.
http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/high_end_gpus.html

Note, that while the Radeon 5670 and 9800 GT comes highly 'recommended' as budget cards, the 4850 is a much better card at a lower price, and the 460 is a much better card for slightly more. While the 5670 is 'newer' the 4850 is just more poweful and SC2 is an 'old' game. Generally Radeon cards run much cooler, quieter, and less power-hungry than their Nvidia counterparts, and are generally 'better' budget cards, NVidia is generally 'better', and the 460 is such a beast at such a low price today.

Note that resolutions impact framerate more than settings do. If you are playing at 1900 pixel width, you may need the GTX 460 for max or just get high on the 4850. If you are reading this guide, you probably aren't playing on 1900x1080 resolution (on the other hand, theres no reason this article isn't for rich people - going anything above this guide's maximum recommendations is overkill for not only SC2, but most games out today). Also note that you need to play on your monitor/TV's native resolution. Screens/resolutions/monitors are beyond the scope of this thread, as you probably have one anyways, but besides the fact resolution is about the 3rd or 4th most important thing (read: not most important) on a screen, playing above the number of pixels your monitor actually has may look nice by making things look small, but is really just reducing picture quality.

Finally, I want to stress this:the difference between medium and Ultra, is it really worth a price premium to you?
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The RAM
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Memory is simply a matter of do you have enough, or not. Benchmarks have shown that the difference between the fastest, $250, overclocked RAM and simple 1066 RAM is less than 10% (money better spent on the CPU or anything else, really). 2GB will be able to play SC2, but you will need to close out everything, and 4GB will be enough to play SC2, stream, have multiple browsers, download, play music, and run a movie at the same time. There's no reason to get more.

When shopping, look at the price of 1GB, 2GB, and 4GB models. Sometimes getting a single, bigger RAM is cheaper than less, multiple RAM, which seems counterintuitive.

Of course, DDR3 is the only choice today.

Also, AMD system prefer 'tighter', or lower timings, as opposed to speed in mhz, so do not get caught up in 1600mhz vs 1333mhz. Some Phenom CPUs also can't do 1600 mhz settings, so check on that when buying RAM and your CPU. I've found that Kingston is not only the cheapest, but the best in terms of quality, overclocking, and warranty. Also, heatspreaders are really unnecessary, and do very little to cool RAM. Case setup is more important. If you are going to spend more money on RAM, don't, but if you do, you want to aim for tighter timings as opposed to speed. Also, you can underclock the RAM and go for better timings to get a bigger performance boost. I'll go over overclocking later.

The Hard Drive
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Hard drive is simply a matter of space - higher or slower performing hard drives only affect boot times and loading times, read: not performance. The difference between, say, 1000RPM Raptor hard drives and 7200RPM Caviar Blue is only a few seconds. Solid State Drives are absolutely amazing, about 5 times faster, but the price premium is just absolutely ridiculous.

Note how much space you use on your current system (also note that you can simply use the old drives in your old system). Do you need 1000GB? Do you even need 200? If you delete all the porn and movies you download, you'll realize you don't even need 100GB - I have downloaded many games, torrents, movies, and operating systems, and none of the PCs I have ever owned have gone over 100GB. Just delete the movies after a month after watching, if you don't delete them right away. But whatever you need in space, get.

You need to get SATA connection, you need to get 7200RPM, and that's really it. You can find great deals on used/open-box/recertified hard drives, and Caviar Blue, WD's newest HDD line, can be had for as little as $20. WD, Seagate, or Samsung for common quality brands.

The Case
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You can go caseless! In all seriousness, you can buy the case later

There's no comparison to getting the NZXT Gamma. Tomshardware and other review sites have shown only one or two other cases that come close in value, which reviewed when the Gamma was much more expensive. Due to price drops, there is no discussion on this one. As an owner, it's an extremely solid case with great airflow, space for tower cooling and up to 7 fans (and that's just the open slots, not extra places you could cram them or fit them, I have 7 fans and not even using 3 slots). The fan the case comes with is also surprisingly high quality (as reviewed by silentpc). The look is unique though, some people love it and some people hate it, so always google up a case so you know what it looks like, before buying.

But to understand them...

When buying a case, you need to check to make sure it fits your motherboard. This is a simple making sure your motherboard is the same "ATX" form factor or smaller than the case. Also, good things to have in a case is a bottom mounted power supply (better air ventilation), fans slots (although you can drill holes easily), space behind the motherboard and slots for cable management, a solid build (something you just need to read up on the case for), and most importantly, well, the look! Don't worry about drive bays, as things like CD drives and floppy drives are a thing of the past, and your case will more than likely be able to fit extra HDD's in unconventional places if 5 HDDs is not enough for you.

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you do not want to see my PC from the other side, my side panel barely fits with my wires from 7 fans and system!

The Power Supply Unit
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Chernobyl: A blown Power Supply Unit

When people talk about the PSU, the saying is "Spend cheap, spend twice". However, this is usually said by people who don't understand them, as the motto should really be "Spend smart, spend once". While a PSU may say something like "Over 9000 watts!" the 'true' power may be much less. This is because modern, reliable PSU's by reliable companies will have most of their power on the 12v rail, whereas crappy, unreliable, or old PSU's have the power on the 3.3v or 5v rails - essentially it is misleading.

Your system's power needs are overwhelmingly on the 12v rails - the two most power hungry components, the CPU and GPU, all rely on the 12v rail, and accessories such as fans, lights, the motherboard, sound cards, et cetera, all use the 12v rail as well. What is a 12v rail? Well, that's beyond the scope of this thread, but just understand it is where the most powerful power comes from and it's what is important.

Now, how to calculate your 'true' wattage? Given that sometimes PSU's may have more than one 12v rail, the calculation is:
12v1xAmperage + 12v2xAmperage= PSU Wattage

If you do this calculation on older PSU's or crappy, cheap ones (under $20) you will see that only around half of the power is on the 12v rail, meaning that despite the PSU being 500w for your system that only needs 350, your stuck with a smoldering burning mess.

Modular Power Supplies are power supplies where you can hook up the power lines as needed, which is amazing and very cool looking, but doesn't affect performance and the price premium is not worth it. If you are smart, you can hide the wires without a modular supply. This is where a good case with space behind the motherboard comes in.

Most power supply calculators out there, such as Neweggs, exaggerate things, in order to get you to spend more money. The only trustworthy power calculator is this one:
http://extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp

You generally want your PC's power needs to be 80% of the PSU's capability, or on today's gaming PC's, this means that your PC's power needs should be about 80% of the PSU's 12v rail wattage. This is not an issue about headroom, but about performance, as PSU's will inevitably lose their power output over time and even the best PSU's will have slight inconsistency in their power output. Even with this in mind though, 350w is all you should need, and 430w will be enough if you plan to get fans or accessories, you are overclocking, and you are paranoid. 500w is unnecessary unless you plan to overclock, have a Fermi GPU, you have quadcore (either by unlocking or by stock), and have multiple accessories, drive bays, cooling, and hard drives.

Also, you want to check for how efficient a power supply is. When a power supply says 500w, that just means it can feed 500w to a computer (which we also know can vary depending on which rails the PSU supplies the power). It does not say how much it sucks out of the wall, and crappy PSU's can draw around 800w just to supply 500w, meaning they are jacking up your electric bill and raising heat in your PC. You generally want 80% efficiency, and 80 Bronze or 80 Plus means they have a certain guarantee of efficiency.

Right now, the only PSU to get is the Antec Earthwatts. There is no other PSU that compares in terms of quality and price, as they are the only 80+ Bronze PSU's at their power levels as well as having high proportions of power on the 12v rail. I haven't seen any cheaper PSU that was quality enough to compare, and usually they aren't even cheaper than these VERY cheap PSUs that are VERY quality at $38+.

Accessories
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DVD/CD drives are being outdated. If you bought SC2 on CD, you can download it for free, as SC2 is actually free - what costs money is the account (check for yourself at starcraft2.com). But if you insist on getting one, just get the cheapest, these can be had for under $20, or off your old PC for free. Note you can install OS's via USB.

Fan controllers are a great way to control fan speed/noise, and the NZXT Sentry 2 also has temperature monitors. Unquestionably the best controller, and one of the cheapest at $25. Looks great, touch screen.

HSF: Right now the best value is the Cooler Master Hyper 212+, and if you search you will find it unanimously recommended at $30. However, note that it is tower cooling, and your stock HSF is radial cooling (ie it blows 'through' the case whereas your stock 'radial' cooling blows 'down' onto your motherboard, cooling everything by the CPU) so while your CPU temperature will drop at least 10*C, your northbridge and VRM (remember what that was?) will rise, even dangerously high, making it well not worth it. You should overclock your CPU and see if temperatures are a concern, before buying an aftermarket HSF, as you may find your CPU is limited by voltage or stability well before temps are an issue, and your VRM may not have the quality to withstand the added heat or your northbridge too. I myself had to saw an old heatsink to glue onto my VRM and attach with wire a fan to my northbridge heatsink to compensate, when I probably should've stuck to stock cooling since my CPU did not have temp problems at all.

Mouse: The Steelseries Kinzu is the best deal at $30. Other mice are too expensive, and the acceleration can be removed. There are more indepth articles about mice, elsewhere. idra uses it though (baller!).

Fans: The Yate Loons are the best, no question. Petras Tech shop has the best 'batch' and you should not buy them anywhere else (you can google why this is true). Mediums provide adequate cooling, and Lows are the only option if sound is an issue to you. $5.

Operating System: Budget builders usually know ahead of time where they are going to get their operating system (yarrr matey) but, that aside, all operating systems these days are good - including freeware. Apple's Snow Leopard and various incarnations of the MacOS on PC make buying a Mac pointless, Windows 7 is actually good, and while Linux may seem scary because, despite of how awesome it can be, it is complicated, Ubuntu is very newb-friendly. With programs like Wine, you usually never have to worry about compatibility issues. If you are on a budget, you can just use Linux/Ubuntu for the time being, and then get Windows or MacOS when a little bit of cash goes your way. Given the huge range of free OS's available these days, the quality of all Operating Systems (even old ones), and that your OS doesn't matter when playing Starcraft 2, I am not including it in the price. It's not hard to make the cost $0 here, and no I am not referring to pirating. People argue all day about OS's but when you get down to it, your marine micro will be the same regardless and they are all good. However, Windows 7 is around $100, as is MacOS, but if you buy it with a student discount you can get it anywhere from free to $70 - just check with your campus computer center.

Monitor: Check what output your GPU of choice has, and match it up with the monitor. However since this is a budget build, and the technical aspect of monitors can be very complex (and beyond the scope of this thread), we aren't really discussing them here. I assume you are running at 1600 pixel width or lower as a budget builder, but if you are running at 1900 pixel width, you may want to get the GTX 460 or understand you may have slightly degraded performance than expected for the power, since resolution can impact FPS more than your graphics settings. As this is a budget build, I assume you have a monitor from your old PC build, but a quality monitor can be had for under $100. Sanyo has some great budget monitors, and most 'broad' review groups like ConsumerReports has great information on the subject, as this is a subject not just covered by nerds, but all men. Note that you can run off a TV, or even projector, and you don't need to get just a dedicated PC monitor.

*Note that when discussing costs, I am excluding mouse and keyboard since you can use your old ones or get temporary ones from friends for free or cheap. Monitors and Operating Systems also are something you can use from either an old build, or use for free. While some may say this is misleading, this guide is an assumption that your current PC either cannot play Starcraft 2 or suddenly broke and you need to play SC2 as fast as possible, so in that sense this guide is much more practical. The general prices for such components are discussed so it's not hard to figure them out, and since this is a PC building guide the specifics for components such as an OS or monitor can be found discussed in much greater depth, elsewhere.

Overclocking
+ Show Spoiler +

[image loading]
Although my temps never get past 40*C, I can only get an extra 200mhz when overclocking my CPU, although I did get an extra core

Now, I'm not writing a guide to overclocking. What I will write, is how overclocking affects buying decisions.

First off, the Athlon II series can be quite interesting when it comes to overclocking. Many people have seen better results overclocking 'slower' (at stock speed) CPU's than the faster ones, so bear that in mind (which is funny, because your 'awesome overclock' may just get you barely past stock speed on a faster Athlon II which only overclocks a tiny bit). Also, the Athlon II X3 450 is generally guaranteed to overclock to over 3.8ghz, or unlock, but not both. You may want to buy a 430/440/445 instead if you are an overclocker enthusiast and okay with the risk. An Athlon II can give you great reward from great risk when overclocking. Just search the exact model to see what results people generally get, and make sure they are recent results (as newer manufactured CPUs may act differently, not to mention the general warning that all CPUs act differently).

Note that when increasing voltage with CPUs, you need a better motherboard. See the VRM section on this, as well as the link on overclock.net and googling "vrm guide overclock.net"

RAM overclocking comes all down to 'tightening' the timings when it comes to AMD systems (whereas Intel prefers faster speed). 1600 mhz is much easier to work with, because you have more 'headroom' than 1333mhz, but all in all increasing speed on RAM is neglible except in benchmarks.

CPU-NB overclocking will yield tangible results in overclocking, probably the 2nd most important thing to overclock on a system. You will see more from a Phenom II with an increased CPU-NB than an Athlon II, just fyi, but Athlon II still appreciates it greatly.

In summation, this guide shows you that you can build a budget PC to play SC2 at max settings for under $350, and you can play comfortably with $250. Spending anything more won't see noticeable improvement in SC2, but may help with any overclocking if you enjoy doing that, give you more HDD space, or have a cooler looking case. This is my way of giving back for the 10 pages that people helped for my system, which plays SC2 at max settings for under $350. While newegg has the best US prices, check pricegrabber.com also to compare each item. Look up the items on newegg, then when you find the item priced right, compare it on pricegrabber. For example, my case was cheaper by $1 shipping from walmart and my HSF was cheaper by $5 on amazon. What's retailer loyalty?

Anyways, this should help people out who post threads like I did, and point out there really is no reason to buy more. I see people recommend systems that either play max and they like but don't realize is overkill, recommend because their system sucks, and overall have no idea what is needed to play SC2. Remember, buying a PC is about buying what you need, not what is the best 'value'.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
skyR
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada13817 Posts
March 16 2011 19:36 GMT
#2
Sandybridge starts at $120 btw which is equivalent to the Phenom X4s.
Aduromors
Profile Joined July 2009
United States279 Posts
March 16 2011 19:53 GMT
#3
On March 17 2011 04:36 skyR wrote:
Sandybridge starts at $120 btw which is equivalent to the Phenom X4s.


Socket 1155 motherboards are expensive, and Athalon X4s are $100
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-16 19:53:55
March 16 2011 19:53 GMT
#4
That's only the 2100. I guess you could say it's the only Intel worth buying. At $40 more it's a huge price increase for unnecessary performance, but a natural step up from my recommendation. Not to mention the motherboard to go with it, the price premium simply isn't worth it.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
skyR
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada13817 Posts
March 16 2011 19:59 GMT
#5
OP recommended Phenom X4s as well and said Sandybridge is overpriced hence what I said.

1155 boards start at $60 and yes I am aware that you can purchase an AM2+ / AM3 board for $30.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 16 2011 20:03 GMT
#6
I didn't recommend Phenom X4s, I simply said it was the next (AMD) set up. I guess we can note that the i3-2100 is a better step up, but regardless, both are not worth it, the price isn't worth it and the performance would not be utilized.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Emporio
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3069 Posts
March 16 2011 20:22 GMT
#7
Wait so is this $250 for a workable computer a legit estimate? And I assume that it would of course be usable as a normal computer for everyday use.
How does it feel knowing you wasted another 3 seconds of your life reading this again?
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 16 2011 20:28 GMT
#8
If you go for an Athlon II x2 Dual core, micro atx, and a gt430+PSU combo, it will be below that at around $230 and be able to play medium comfortably (maybe high). If it can play starcraft/game, it can do anything else with ease as gaming is easily the most intense thing you can do besides folding or stress testing.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Sablar
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Sweden880 Posts
March 16 2011 20:38 GMT
#9
Good guide if you have a limited budget and want to build a computer.

But it's not like it's stupid to buy a sandy bridge system with a better GPU either. Money has to go somewhere and in the end almost anything people spend money on could be considered stupid.

I would find it overkill to get a $3000 PC. But if you can, why not..
dicedicerevolution
Profile Joined October 2009
United States245 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-16 20:39:04
March 16 2011 20:38 GMT
#10
It's a really detailed guide, and as someone who purchased a computer for SC2 and tried to suck up as much knowledge as possible to be an informed buyer, I would have appreciated something like this. It's also awesome that you actually use many of the parts that you discuss, I know I would do things much differently after actually buying my system--you just don't see it coming while you're still picking your parts.

One thing that I did notice was conspicuously missing, you didn't mention what resolution you're playing at. That can really impact the kind of graphics card to recommend, although I doubt it would really effect the other part choices too much. I'm really amazed at the size of the budget (so cheap!), and although you didn't always back up your claims with 3rd party sources (e.g. SC2 is CPU-intensive and not GPU-intensive; which sounds true, but I mean who says that and where?) it's overall well-written and the attention to detail (very understandable and thorough discussion of why certain decisions were made in picking out parts) is well appreciated.

I hope a lot of people who are in the market for a PC to get into SC2 get a chance to look at this thread!
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-16 21:14:51
March 16 2011 20:51 GMT
#11

Good guide if you have a limited budget and want to build a computer.

But it's not like it's stupid to buy a sandy bridge system with a better GPU either. Money has to go somewhere and in the end almost anything people spend money on could be considered stupid.

I would find it overkill to get a $3000 PC. But if you can, why not..


Because most people who don't live with their parents don't have such money? And yea, it is kinda stupid when you could put the money somewhere else. If people read this guide and still choose to buy an i7, more power to them. This guide is to help people who either aren't able to play SC2 because they think they can't afford a PC to do so, help people upgrade their system appropriately, and let people who have a limited budget buy a PC while still being able to afford things. Personally, when I built my $350 PC, I only had $420 on my credit card so it was great that I could both play SC2 and eat.

And it is kinda dumb to buy a 4 wheel drive jeep when all you need is a rear wheel drive car. But PCs aren't usually bought for the wow factor, they are more utilitarian.

I know I would do things much differently after actually buying my system--you just don't see it coming while you're still picking your parts.


I did a lot of research. The only things I would do differently is bought a 4850 instead of 460 (although hard to complain about that, on the other hand I haven't bought food in a while lol) and maybe have bought a better motherboard, although it hasn't fried yet and after modding heatsinks on, I think I may be okay (crosses fingers). I also probably would've gone with a micro-ATX motherboard, as they are usually cheaper, and I avoided because I knew I didn't know exactly everything so I was too scared to get micro.

you didn't mention what resolution you're playing at.


Resolutions and screens are out of the scope of this guide, but basically if you are playing at 1900xXXXX resolution, then this guide probably isn't for you. However, most people don't understand resolutions, so I could maybe explain that if your monitors natural resolution is 1200xXXX, you are actually degrading performance by going to 1900. But most computer monitors won't be above 1700xXXX- a resolution size that's usually reserved for HD big screen plasma tv sort of stuff.

but to note, the GTX 460 will play ultras on maxed out resolutions (being the 'cheapest/lowest/minimum' GPU that can play highest settings at highest resolution with absolutely no problem, none at all, so I feel those words are poor to describe it) and the 4850/4830/430 will just have to lower settings a bit to compensate (or turn off features that aren't really that noticeable like anti aliasing and ambient occlusion).

I hope a lot of people who are in the market for a PC to get into SC2 get a chance to look at this thread!


Thanks, request sticky :D

I have an overclocking blog here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=198832

and will maybe make a guide of that too.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
DuneBug
Profile Joined April 2010
United States668 Posts
March 16 2011 20:54 GMT
#12
i last upgraded like 3 years ago and I'm thinking it might be time for an improvement.
This thread rocks. I bookmarked it so i can refer back to it later.
TIME TO SAY GOODNIGHT BRO!
skyR
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada13817 Posts
March 16 2011 20:59 GMT
#13
You know when you specify resolutions with a single number, people assume you are talking about vertical pixels... HDTVs are 1920x1080 or 1080 if you are using a single number.. The majority of computer monitors are 1080...
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-16 21:19:23
March 16 2011 21:18 GMT
#14
^ going up and down by vertial pixels isn't as dramatic to performance as the huge differences you see in horizontal pixel ranges (ie 1900 vs 700). If you can play 720 with 1080 height, cool, but you may have trouble with 720 with 1900. i discuss resolutions enough in my gpu section though. ill add more.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Sablar
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Sweden880 Posts
March 16 2011 21:28 GMT
#15
On March 17 2011 05:51 Belial88 wrote:
Show nested quote +

Good guide if you have a limited budget and want to build a computer.

But it's not like it's stupid to buy a sandy bridge system with a better GPU either. Money has to go somewhere and in the end almost anything people spend money on could be considered stupid.

I would find it overkill to get a $3000 PC. But if you can, why not..


Because most people who don't live with their parents don't have such money? And yea, it is kinda stupid when you could put the money somewhere else. If people read this guide and still choose to buy an i7, more power to them. This guide is to help people who either aren't able to play SC2 because they think they can't afford a PC to do so, help people upgrade their system appropriately, and let people who have a limited budget buy a PC while still being able to afford things. Personally, when I built my $350 PC, I only had $420 on my credit card so it was great that I could both play SC2 and eat.

And it is kinda dumb to buy a 4 wheel drive jeep when all you need is a rear wheel drive car. But PCs aren't usually bought for the wow factor, they are more utilitarian.


You think that people could put their money to better use, but seem to assume that people would go out and buy food or something instead. It's obvious that people would spend their money on things that they don't need instead.

Most people live way above the bare minimum, and anything above that could be considered stupid depending on how judgemental you are, or how provocative you try to be.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 16 2011 21:37 GMT
#16
im very provocative, and very judgemental. what can i say im american.

People can either follow the guide and be happy at knowing they can get much less, or they can read this and realize their i7 is complete overkill and be baller. Anything above what I recommended will work, although not noticeably better, so they can take this as an affirmation that what they are getting will work fine.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
antikk
Profile Joined February 2011
15 Posts
March 16 2011 22:13 GMT
#17
Fantastic guide. I am not in the market to buy a new pc atm but the reasoning behind your recommendations are very solid and I will bookmark this to review again when I am considering upgrading.
Zeke50100
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2220 Posts
March 16 2011 23:10 GMT
#18
Pretty good. However, I think you should include the approximate costs of a monitor and operating system (which could be anywhere from $150 to $250 extra) in the expected cost (or at least add a note about it), since people reading this could mistakenly think they can get everything they need for sub-400.

Also, including options if people do not want to rely on things like rebates, limited sales, and other deals that aren't always available would be a good idea, although it wouldn't be nearly as cost-effective as the build(s) listed here.
nVusPip
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom260 Posts
March 16 2011 23:18 GMT
#19
The pictures just complete this thread
Emporio
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3069 Posts
March 17 2011 03:56 GMT
#20
On March 17 2011 08:10 Zeke50100 wrote:
Pretty good. However, I think you should include the approximate costs of a monitor and operating system (which could be anywhere from $150 to $250 extra) in the expected cost (or at least add a note about it), since people reading this could mistakenly think they can get everything they need for sub-400.

Also, including options if people do not want to rely on things like rebates, limited sales, and other deals that aren't always available would be a good idea, although it wouldn't be nearly as cost-effective as the build(s) listed here.


I think most people have a spare monitor/keyboard/mouse or can at least get them somehow pretty cheap so I don't think that there's too much worry there.

The OS might be a little different though, are there any recommendations for what to do about that? If you're going for cheap, Linux does come to mind, but I've never actually thought about it very much.
How does it feel knowing you wasted another 3 seconds of your life reading this again?
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 18 2011 00:28 GMT
#21
Ill update this in a day or two, busy. But as for operating systems, I think its pretty clear what the answer is for that for the budget builder. On the other hand, all operating systems are great today, so linux is fine. If you want to pay for an os, w7 and snow leopard are great too. I don't really think it matters what os you use, as when you play starcraft it won't matter. It really doesn't matter in general, things like rainmeter and themes can make an os feel like another.

Ill add more pics, address OS, ad a bit more cleaning, for one noting that my board has the same electrolytic capacitors in the pic of the blown capacitors so its completely possible your motherboard has them too (they are very common) and that good quality mobos arrent necessarily more expensive (usually bthe issue is that so called top end boards are designed poorly).

And yea I address mice and monitors. Most people already have them and its beyond this thread. The idea that this thread completely helps someone and then they are left totally lost because they have no idea how to get a keyboard is ludicrous. You need to do a lot of research to buy a pc, and this guide is meant to filll gaps other guides fail in (practicality). I assume my readers have seen a pc building guide and are dissapointed how they all say the same useless blather. This guide is meant to help people on how to select parts, and rebates and other countries and rich people would be helped by this guide too as its about learning how to judge what you need go look for and what's worth extra money and what's not.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
billy5000
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States865 Posts
March 18 2011 01:02 GMT
#22
I really appreciate your contribution! It's really hard to ask people about the most "cost effective" parts since the most common response is something like, "Personally, I'd spend a bit more on this because for a few more cash, you'll get a much better deal." It may be true, but it's a deal worth not taking when all I want is to play starcraft 2 and nothing more! It seems that it's degrading to talk about "older" generation parts whenever I check tomshardware, anandtech, and even on tl.

Anyway, would you mind posting a tl;dr version of your specs? Thanks
Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder, 'Why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand. Vonnegut
mav451
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1596 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-18 01:41:23
March 18 2011 01:35 GMT
#23
I understand you've learned alot since you began, but this guide is a bit presumptuous considering your level of experience. It's a great effort, I'm not criticizing that, but you need to understand how odd it is seeing you ask for help just a month ago, and then the next you are writing a guide.

Personally, the hyperbole against purchasing Intel processors is misplaced. If you work for a living, then spending another $60-$80 is maybe another 3 hours at work. Seriously - not a big deal. TBH, this guide may apply to someone working on a high school internship, or first year college (maybe), but once you have a real job, is cutting corners as severely as you did going to be appropriate for everyone? IMO, no. I would try to revise the anti-rich rhetoric out of your guide, or at least tone it down.

I mean at one point you were considering a recertified HD. Seriously, you would put your data/OS, all at risk, to save a little money?
With no power comes no responsibility?
Serejai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
6007 Posts
March 18 2011 02:26 GMT
#24
A+ for effort, but this thread is extremely misleading. A $350 will not play SC2 at max settings... and will struggle even at medium in most cases.

From the benchmarks you linked (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/starcraft-ii-radeon-geforce,2728-8.html) you can see that the CPUs tested are barely passable at Medium settings and 1024 resolution.

Bump that up to Ultra and 1080p and you're looking at an average framerate under 20, with a minimum under 10. I'm not sure how you're used to gaming, but playing under 30 FPS is just a bad experience.

To put things into perspective I have a 4.5GHz Phenom II X6 and a Radeon 5890 and my framerate doesn't have any room for error in larger 2v2 or 3v3 battles. Sure, the max framerate is over 200... but what matters are the low and average (moreso the low in SC2, since that's what you'll have during fights).

If you're using a small 17 inch monitor and only play matches that end well before 200/200 battles... then sure, a budget computer would be fine. Otherwise, it just doesn't work. Not to mention you'll be replacing it a year down the road when Diablo III or Guild Wars 2 or <insert game you're waiting for> comes out and you realize you can only play it on low.
I HAVE 5 TOAST POINTS
Misanthrope
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States924 Posts
March 18 2011 04:34 GMT
#25
I really appreciate this man, this is a great guide and all your hardwork is definitely going to have a great effect on my life! You rock man! <3
Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve. - Benjamin Franklin
Aduromors
Profile Joined July 2009
United States279 Posts
March 18 2011 06:05 GMT
#26
On March 18 2011 10:35 mav451 wrote:
Personally, the hyperbole against purchasing Intel processors is misplaced. If you work for a living, then spending another $60-$80 is maybe another 3 hours at work. Seriously - not a big deal. TBH, this guide may apply to someone working on a high school internship, or first year college (maybe), but once you have a real job, is cutting corners as severely as you did going to be appropriate for everyone? IMO, no. I would try to revise the anti-rich rhetoric out of your guide, or at least tone it down.


i5-2500k setups are about $360-$370 and i7-2600k are about $100 more than that. AMD CPUs and motherboards are often less than $100 each

Intel has the most powerful CPUs and i5s are definitely worth the price but they don't belong in the same sentence as "budget"
Aduromors
Profile Joined July 2009
United States279 Posts
March 18 2011 06:23 GMT
#27
On March 18 2011 11:26 Serejai wrote:
A+ for effort, but this thread is extremely misleading. A $350 will not play SC2 at max settings... and will struggle even at medium in most cases.

From the benchmarks you linked (http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/starcraft-ii-radeon-geforce,2728-8.html) you can see that the CPUs tested are barely passable at Medium settings and 1024 resolution.

It's true that Starcraft 2 can be really CPU intensive, but for 1v1 and single player it should run fine. That benchmark brought even an i7 to it's knees, it doesn't really represent performance in normal games

Bump that up to Ultra and 1080p and you're looking at an average framerate under 20, with a minimum under 10. I'm not sure how you're used to gaming, but playing under 30 FPS is just a bad experience.

To put things into perspective I have a 4.5GHz Phenom II X6 and a Radeon 5890 and my framerate doesn't have any room for error in larger 2v2 or 3v3 battles. Sure, the max framerate is over 200... but what matters are the low and average (moreso the low in SC2, since that's what you'll have during fights)

If you're using a small 17 inch monitor and only play matches that end well before 200/200 battles... then sure, a budget computer would be fine. Otherwise, it just doesn't work. Not to mention you'll be replacing it a year down the road when Diablo III or Guild Wars 2 or <insert game you're waiting for> comes out and you realize you can only play it on low.

I doubt increasing the graphics settings or would add much load to the CPU. Like the OP mentioned,
the GTX 460 768mb is more than enough for SC2, even at 1920x1200
mav451
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1596 Posts
March 18 2011 06:56 GMT
#28
You are referencing MC's famous $99 CPU with free mobo deal. While it's a not a bad budget start, you need to recognize the kind of mobos you are getting with $99. If you want something even remotely comparable to the Intel offerings, those are farther down and start at $139 and go up to $199. Those are with the PhIIX2's or the fake PhII X4 840. I say fake, b/c it is basically a renamed Propus, as it has no L3-cache. If you want to do substantial CPU-NB OCing though, you will want a Thuban, and those mobo combos start at $209 and go up to $269.

If you really believe you can OC a X6 on those cheap mATX boards, be my guest, but if you want performance even remotely competitive with Intel, you need to spend good money. And that's just to compete with the 2009 Lynnfields, not the 2011 Sandybridge.
With no power comes no responsibility?
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 18 2011 09:01 GMT
#29
Mav41, first off I want to thank you for reading the guide!

But first off, all the information I post is correct, and can you say yourself that you knew everything I said and learned nothing? Secondly, sure you can buy an i7. But this guide is about how to make a smart buying decision. Unless it is for professional use, buying an i7 is not a smart decision. Does that mean people who buy it are dumb? Not at all, some people buy lambos when they only need a civic. But the key element is that guide will tell the minimum for buying a pc to not jst to play sc2, but any game. So if you buy any higher, you can take solace you'll be fine. You want a phenom and wonder how it'll play sc2 - it'll play sc2 perfectly.

As for a recertified HDD it will be dead on arrival or not, it won't just die on you. You can RMA it.

I really think your criticisms are judgemental and ill placed.

Serejai, you can read the thread I posted. I assume you are just callkng me a liar because I built a 350 pc and I play on everything maxed, and I also know my system is actually too strong (my gpu is bottlenecked and my cppu has a very high minimum fps)

Mav41 I don't know what MC build is. I am not talking about the best system in the world, I am talking about what works. I also even say phenoms have better nb oc benefits, and even mention some phenoms are fake phenoms. Why couldn't you PM these nasty things you are saying? I find it irritating that you are implying buying such a system is bad and won't perform sc2 or any game out today, or that people need to spend money. I gave the information people need to build a good system, as mabny times 'high end' isn't so, and many times its not costly to build a quality part. Just as we know Dells are horrible because it is a bunch of components with the word Dell slapped on, I also know that many PC parts are the same thing (antec earthwatts are actually rebranded, motherboards are PCB capacitors and transistors put together, etc).

How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 18 2011 09:08 GMT
#30
I just built a custom PC and I took the time not just to learn about every part, but about every competitve part on the market today. If I knew that the guide you wrote was so much better and informa... oh wait.

Why couldn't you just PM me? I feel some of these comments are quite judgemental. I would appreciate if you concentrated on the content and technical details instead of berating me because of my background or that I don't spend money indiscriminately and irrationally. All of todays processord are good quality, even celeron. Saving money on a processor will just lower fps, not be something as drastic as saying cutting corners would imply. An Athlon x3 will play all ultra settings with no problem save for maybe, MAYBE the most ridiculius custom maps. Going for more power will only be unnecessary and yield no noticeable performance increase in general, and if you choose to do so you will take solace from this guide knowing your good. An athlin x2 will be okay, an x3 will be no problem ever.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
nastyndog
Profile Joined January 2011
United States43 Posts
March 18 2011 13:13 GMT
#31
I have a 1 gig 4850 and it is not nearly powerful enough to play on high at 1920 x 1080 with a playable framerate, ultra is out of the question. keep in mind that a "playable" framerate to me is above 30fps no matter what is happening on the screen, though i would prefer 60 to keep up with the refresh rate. It runs great on medium though and personally i don't notice the lower graphics since i'm too focused on everything else that is going on.
"I whip my hair grack and forth" - Day9
mav451
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1596 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-18 13:44:58
March 18 2011 13:41 GMT
#32
On March 18 2011 18:01 Belial88 wrote:
Mav41, first off I want to thank you for reading the guide!

But first off, all the information I post is correct, and can you say yourself that you knew everything I said and learned nothing? Secondly, sure you can buy an i7. But this guide is about how to make a smart buying decision. Unless it is for professional use, buying an i7 is not a smart decision. Does that mean people who buy it are dumb? Not at all, some people buy lambos when they only need a civic. But the key element is that guide will tell the minimum for buying a pc to not jst to play sc2, but any game. So if you buy any higher, you can take solace you'll be fine. You want a phenom and wonder how it'll play sc2 - it'll play sc2 perfectly.


I never said to buy an i7, maybe others did? I use an i5 myself, so why would I recommend an i7 for others? I've been talking about PC hardware for almost 9 years now, so it does make me roll my eyes when I see a car analogy for the 100,000th time.


As for a recertified HDD it will be dead on arrival or not, it won't just die on you. You can RMA it.

I really think your criticisms are judgemental and ill placed.


I am giving tough love b/c I see a little of myself in these posts. I actually wrote a guide in my sophmore year of college. I thought I knew everything after building my first PC. In 2003, that was a Tbred-B 2100+ on a nForce2 mobo. I thought I knew everything about overclocking, but I never actually published the guide. I did write it for my Technical Writing class, and after showing it to my friend, later found out he plagiarized the whole thing from me...but that's a story for another time...


Mav41 I don't know what MC build is. I am not talking about the best system in the world, I am talking about what works. I also even say phenoms have better nb oc benefits, and even mention some phenoms are fake phenoms. Why couldn't you PM these nasty things you are saying? I find it irritating that you are implying buying such a system is bad and won't perform sc2 or any game out today, or that people need to spend money. I gave the information people need to build a good system, as mabny times 'high end' isn't so, and many times its not costly to build a quality part. Just as we know Dells are horrible because it is a bunch of components with the word Dell slapped on, I also know that many PC parts are the same thing (antec earthwatts are actually rebranded, motherboards are PCB capacitors and transistors put together, etc).


The $99 MC build I talk about is in response to Aduromors post, where he was discussing prices of comparable builds.

I find it rather ironic that you are implying that my post was nasty, when your guide is the one that contains inciteful rhetoric. All I am suggesting is that you to tone it down. Do you really think i5/i7 owners are gonna read your guide and not be at least a little offended?

This is what you posted, so you know what I'm referring to:

At the moment, all of the Intel Sandy Bridge processors are complete overkill, as well as overpriced, so there is no reason to get them unless you plan to build a PC and then live in a cave, jobless, for more than 5 years, but at the same time buying the newest games.

The good news is that building a budget PC will yield amazing results these days, being able to play Crysis 2 at max settings, and that spending three times as much won't even get you twice the performance boost. For this reason, we will not talk about Intel or what the best of the best is, as quite simply, it is stupid to buy an i7 today.

With no power comes no responsibility?
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-18 22:23:47
March 18 2011 15:39 GMT
#33
Belial, you say there's no point at all to owning an i7, in a guide on the TL forums? Look at the top-right of any TL site page, and what do you see? Live User Streams.

You claim a $400 computer can play any game on max settings? 5 bucks says you haven't heard of Metro 2033.

Now the premise behind your guide is admirable, but you seem to be a bit too personally invested in the subject. I felt like my PC had kicked your dog or something while reading it. Also, I can't really agree with a few of the places you look at saving money.

DVD drive? Not truly essential anymore, but if you can't afford much PC, you probably can't afford the bandwidth to get all content digital, either.

OS? Come on, emulation from Linux is finicky, unsupported, and for a lot of higher end games, requires expensive licenses to get up-to-date compatibility.

Display? Unless you suggest getting a CRT at a yard sale for 5 bucks, you REALLY should include it in your total budget needed, even a low end LCD is going to add a reasonable percentage of that small of a budget.

Edit for typo.
Womwomwom
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
5930 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-18 15:52:29
March 18 2011 15:41 GMT
#34
Remember, buying a PC is about buying what you need, not what is the best 'value'.


If value is FPS per $$$, AMD wins hands down. Unfortunately, that doesn't take into account the importance of maintaining a high, steady FPS. And unfortunately for us, most current AMD options only sit within the merely adequate category. They're not bad but they're a lot more limited than the Intel options in capability.

Sandy Bridge isn't overpriced for what you get, CPU processing power is exceptionally important especially in many tasks, its why people buy them in the first place. A computer doesn't just play games, it does "work" too!

Few facts you might have not considered:
1) Current AMD processors are not good (more like fucking terrible) for CPU intensive games like Arma II, Microsoft Flight Simulator X, Civilization 5, Mount and Blade, and basically every single 3X game out there.

2) Many programs show favoritism to current Intel processors. Adobe CS has, from recent memory, always been optimised for Intel and will simply run better no matter the situation. Console emulators, like Dolphin, support instruction sets that AMD processors do not use and thus require heavy overclocks to achieve what Intel can do on stock.

3) People want a computer that you build and forget. Your proposal doesn't do that.

This is why it is extremely important people specify what they want to use their computer for when they request a build. A i7 980x is a terrible processor for everyone but for a vehicle simulator fanatic, its possibly the best value processor on the market right now since it lets him do what he wants well; similarly mum and dad who just want to web browse should just get a cheap AMD build or a prebuilt from Dell.

The old Athlon II X4 build is a nice budget build and one I've generally suggested to people who web browse and do some light gaming (is this the purpose of your budget computer?) but make no mistake, the minute you want it to run CPU intensive tasks you better hope you are a tolerant person because you're going to see the limitations of it very quickly (hint: try running late game Civilization 5 on it, it is not remotely playable; I know because it isn't on my i5 750).
Serejai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
6007 Posts
March 18 2011 16:05 GMT
#35
On March 18 2011 18:01 Belial88 wrote:
Serejai, you can read the thread I posted. I assume you are just callkng me a liar because I built a 350 pc and I play on everything maxed, and I also know my system is actually too strong (my gpu is bottlenecked and my cppu has a very high minimum fps)


http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/best-gaming-cpu-core-i3-2100-phenom-ii-x6-1075t,2859-8.html

The CPU you suggested has substantially less power than the X4 645 (and your GPU falls quite short of the 480 used in those tests, too) and the 645 doesn't even give playable framerates on Ultra.

I'm not calling you a liar, as your computer will certainly run the game on Ultra. However, it will not run it at acceptable framerates above Medium, and will need to be upgraded a year from now to handle new games. It's not a solid investment when you can spend $150 more and get something with twice the performance and three times the lifespan.

I mean, a month ago you were asking for help building your first computer. I've been working in IT for ten years and probably have more custom built computers in this room alone than you've ever used. I simply feel, despite how much research you've done, a month of experience isn't enough to qualify you for giving advice to people - especially when said advice is rather misleading and would cause issues down the road with new games.

Also, the parts you mentioned in your op come out to around $450 on Newegg - not $350, or even remotely close to $250. That's even with cutting corners, like a $30 motherboard (which is strongly not recommended).

As I said, $500 is about the minimum for a respectable gaming computer, and you're still not going to max out any new games with it. Telling people $350 when the computer you mentioned in the op is $450 and still can't max it out is a bit misleading in my opinion.

Again, I'm not trying to be hostile or anything, and I'm glad you put in the effort to make this thread and try to help people who are looking to build something. I just feel that a lot of your recommendations are incorrect based on personal experience.
I HAVE 5 TOAST POINTS
Coriolis
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States1152 Posts
March 18 2011 16:10 GMT
#36
On March 19 2011 00:41 Womwomwom wrote:
Show nested quote +
Remember, buying a PC is about buying what you need, not what is the best 'value'.


If value is FPS per $$$, AMD wins hands down. Unfortunately, that doesn't take into account the importance of maintaining a high, steady FPS. And unfortunately for us, most current AMD options only sit within the merely adequate category. They're not bad but they're a lot more limited than the Intel options in capability.

Sandy Bridge isn't overpriced for what you get, CPU processing power is exceptionally important especially in many tasks, its why people buy them in the first place. A computer doesn't just play games, it does "work" too!

Few facts you might have not considered:
1) Current AMD processors are not good (more like fucking terrible) for CPU intensive games like Arma II, Microsoft Flight Simulator X, Civilization 5, Mount and Blade, and basically every single 3X game out there.

2) Many programs show favoritism to current Intel processors. Adobe CS has, from recent memory, always been optimised for Intel and will simply run better no matter the situation. Console emulators, like Dolphin, support instruction sets that AMD processors do not use and thus require heavy overclocks to achieve what Intel can do on stock.

3) People want a computer that you build and forget. Your proposal doesn't do that.

This is why it is extremely important people specify what they want to use their computer for when they request a build. A i7 980x is a terrible processor for everyone but for a vehicle simulator fanatic, its possibly the best value processor on the market right now since it lets him do what he wants well; similarly mum and dad who just want to web browse should just get a cheap AMD build or a prebuilt from Dell.

The old Athlon II X4 build is a nice budget build and one I've generally suggested to people who web browse and do some light gaming (is this the purpose of your budget computer?) but make no mistake, the minute you want it to run CPU intensive tasks you better hope you are a tolerant person because you're going to see the limitations of it very quickly (hint: try running late game Civilization 5 on it, it is not remotely playable; I know because it isn't on my i5 750).


Civilization 5 runs like crap on everything, I checked my CPU usage on it once and it was only using one core....
Descolada in everything not TL/Starcraft
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 18 2011 16:15 GMT
#37
Here's a good tl;dr for the OP. Go here and select your price range. Find a combo that fits your system requirements. Find an OS, keyboard, mouse, and display from their respective sections, and add them to the cart as well.
mav451
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1596 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-18 16:23:51
March 18 2011 16:21 GMT
#38
On March 19 2011 01:10 Coriolis wrote:
Civilization 5 runs like crap on everything, I checked my CPU usage on it once and it was only using one core....


The techspot review shows that the game continues to scale on an overclocked Nehalem. Note they emphasized that both i5 and i7's showed similar performance. This is to quell "but it's an i7" rant that would probably follow.
http://www.techspot.com/review/320-civilization-v-performance/page11.html
Even at 4Ghz, it is still showing gains, and that's at 4x AA! So drop that to 0x AA (which is my preferred image quality setting) and chances are you will see an even greater benefit. The same logic applies that lower resolutions would also show bigger jumps as you OC.

Remember, again, that your GPU must already be satisfactory for your desired resolution _and_ quality settings before you move on to CPU-scaling. Even at the lowest resolution, 1440x900, it implies you need at minimum a 460. At a mainstream resolution, like 1920x1200, that minimum card is closer to a card between the 460/470. And just to throw it out there, even my GTX260 is unfit for this game.
With no power comes no responsibility?
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
March 18 2011 16:55 GMT
#39
What do you guys think?

+ Show Spoiler +

ASUS DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS Black SATA 24X DVD Burner - Bulk - OEM
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827135204

Xigmatek ASGARD II B/B CPC-T45UC-U01 Black / Black 0.8 mm SECC / Aluminum and Aluminum Mesh Bezel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811815004

SAMSUNG Spinpoint F4 HD322GJ/U 320GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152244

GIGABYTE GV-R577UD-1GD Radeon HD 5770 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Video Card
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125309

Antec EarthWatts Green EA-380D Green 380W Continuous power ATX12V v2.3 / EPS12V 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Active PFC Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371033

A-DATA 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model AD3U1333B2G9-DRH
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211364

ASRock H61M-S LGA 1155 Intel H61 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157237

Intel Core i3-2100 Sandy Bridge 3.1GHz LGA 1155 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor BX80623I32100
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115078

Subtotal: $492.92

starleague forever
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 18 2011 16:58 GMT
#40
On March 19 2011 01:55 a176 wrote:
What do you guys think?

+ Show Spoiler +

ASUS DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS Black SATA 24X DVD Burner - Bulk - OEM
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827135204

Xigmatek ASGARD II B/B CPC-T45UC-U01 Black / Black 0.8 mm SECC / Aluminum and Aluminum Mesh Bezel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811815004

SAMSUNG Spinpoint F4 HD322GJ/U 320GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152244

GIGABYTE GV-R577UD-1GD Radeon HD 5770 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Video Card
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125309

Antec EarthWatts Green EA-380D Green 380W Continuous power ATX12V v2.3 / EPS12V 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Active PFC Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371033

A-DATA 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model AD3U1333B2G9-DRH
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211364

ASRock H61M-S LGA 1155 Intel H61 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157237

Intel Core i3-2100 Sandy Bridge 3.1GHz LGA 1155 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor BX80623I32100
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115078

Subtotal: $492.92



Sounds reasonably solid to me. You might want to go with a bit more PSU to begin with, just for the sake of room to work with, adding fans, drives, or if you upgrade video cards, or if you use your computer for a lot of non-stop hours, to add longevity.
billy5000
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States865 Posts
March 18 2011 21:53 GMT
#41
For some reason, I have a feeling that most of the criticisms in this thread don't consider the OP's audience and the implications that follow.

No budget builder would consider the quality they can play their games on. If they can play it smoothly on medium settings, that's fine. Low, that's fine too as long as the performance is consistent. On max, even better. However, that's not the point. We're looking for a build that sacrifices aesthetics over function. The OP mentions that a budget build can run sc2 in all max settings. Although I'm a bit skeptical about that, this just reassures me that the build is good enough to run sc2, and that's all that matters to me.

This goes without saying, why should we choose intel over amd? The main reason is that amd owners have the option to upgrade their cpu, provided their mobo is compatible with the new cpu. Some may think this is actually a waste of money (a new amd lineup is being released soon), but for those who are upgrading from athlon 2 to a phenom 2 after a year or two, it's kind of a big deal.

And personally, as an i7 owner, I didn't find the OP demeaning to any extent. After all, he is right. The i7 is pretty much unnecessary nowadays, especially if you're looking to play only sc2. But for photoshopping or any cpu extensive softwares, there really is a substantial difference as someone commented, but it's still works on a lower class cpu so I don't really see a reason to point that out, as this is thread is directed to those on a tight budget.

So why is an i7 owner looking at this thread? Well, I'm currently trying to build a computer for a friend so that he can play sc2 and sc2 only. He already has a laptop that has everything he needs to do except sc2, and this thread has really helped us a lot. If I might add, tomshardware does a similar type of budget builds every month or so, and everyone should check that out.
Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder, 'Why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand. Vonnegut
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-18 22:23:22
March 18 2011 22:14 GMT
#42
@billy5000:

I, for one, am criticizing the authors objectivity. Someone who wants to build a PC might come to this thread for guidance, even if they intended to build a much more powerful rig, if they didn't know how to go about it.

Obviously, this guide is for people who have never built any PC before, as those who have would be able to scale it down for a budget. (Although the OP's hostile rhetoric towards "rich kids" belies this.) Given the obvious target audience, some amount of objectivity should be maintained through the guide.

For example, if two brand new graphics cards came out today, one from each major manufacturer, and I did a comparison benchmark, and chose Dragon Age 2 to compare the hardware's non-game-specific performance, knowing full well that Dragon Age 2 is optimized blatantly for AMD drivers, my benchmarks would be an unobjective, biased, slanted joke.

The author of this guide is overtly hostile toward people who have higher end systems, acting like they must be idiots with no knowledge of what their personal needs are, and whether their computer fits those needs now, or for how long it will continue to do so. He makes cracks about i7 being useless... Day[9] can push his OCed i7 920 almost to the max during the daily.

He comments about more RAM being absolutely useless, when there are quite a few applications where adding another $50 of RAM may massively boost performance for common gaming related tasks, like compressing FRAPs footage for upload.

He makes broad, blatantly false claims about computers, and what they can do, with no regard for the fact that people may actually believe him and end up wasting their own money. A $400 computer run everything on max settings for 2-3 years? I can't build a $400 PC today that will run games that are already OUT at max settings. Metro 2033 and Dragon Age 2 come to mind.

Overall, his intent is good, but he acts as though enthusiasts have done him and the rest of the world a slight by not scaling down their own computers that they build with their own hard earned dollars.

Whether it be writing a guide, a benchmark, or a product review, tech-related articles should be as objective as possible when possible. This guide fails that effort repeatedly, and doesn't constitute good, quality content that new builders should potentially try to learn from.

Edit: Fixed typo
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 18 2011 23:58 GMT
#43
Do you really think i5/i7 owners are gonna read your guide and not be at least a little offended?



Noted. Sorry for the misunderstanding. If I was politlcally incorrect, I don't care, but I understand this may not be the best place for that. Right now I'm a bit busy so I'll edit everything up in 2 days. I actually hit "post" on accident.

I have a 1 gig 4850 and it is not nearly powerful enough to play on high at 1920 x 1080 with a playable framerate, ultra is out of the question. keep in mind that a "playable" framerate to me is above 30fps no matter what is happening on the screen, though i would prefer 60 to keep up with the refresh rate. It runs great on medium though and personally i don't notice the lower graphics since i'm too focused on everything else that is going on.


Theres no reason to be playing at such a resolution unless A)you don't realize higher resolutions on a monitor with a lower native resolution is hurtful or B) you aren't a budget gamer.

3) People want a computer that you build and forget. Your proposal doesn't do that.

it does do that.

I'm not calling you a liar, as your computer will certainly run the game on Ultra. However, it will not run it at acceptable framerates above Medium, and will need to be upgraded a year from now to handle new games. It's not a solid investment when you can spend $150 more and get something with twice the performance and three times the lifespan.


You are calling me a liar. I can post my FRAPS and show how I play on all Ultra with over 60 FPS average.

Also, the parts you mentioned in your op come out to around $450 on Newegg - not $350, or even remotely close to $250. That's even with cutting corners, like a $30 motherboard (which is strongly not recommended).



I discuss my motherboard, and the accessories are not included because they are not necessary.

a176 your build isn't really what I talk about at all. The 460 is a better gpu for a quick look at that.

I talk about what MINIMUM *works* so anything higher is just more headroom - but not necessarily performance. The merit is not in the parts I talk about but my explanation of how to choose parts.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Womwomwom
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
5930 Posts
March 19 2011 02:21 GMT
#44
Overclocking is never a "leave and forget" situation, it is always a situation where:
1) Your computer is so shit but you want to delay the time where your parts become obsolete.
2) You are an enthusiast who wants to have fun with the hardware and benchmark it.

Leave and forget is where you build the computer, install software and let it do its own thing. Your computer doesn't do that, unless you want it to perform badly when the late game of the majority of strategy games occurs.

Either way, you're backpeddling to a position where you should have been in the first place. This computer can only play games adequately, its not some max setting monster like you've been saying.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 19 2011 02:40 GMT
#45
On March 19 2011 11:21 Womwomwom wrote:
Overclocking is never a "leave and forget" situation, it is always a situation where:
1) Your computer is so shit but you want to delay the time where your parts become obsolete.
2) You are an enthusiast who wants to have fun with the hardware and benchmark it.

Leave and forget is where you build the computer, install software and let it do its own thing. Your computer doesn't do that, unless you want it to perform badly when the late game of the majority of strategy games occurs.

Either way, you're backpeddling to a position where you should have been in the first place. This computer can only play games adequately, its not some max setting monster like you've been saying.


The whole guide is hyperbole and personal attacks on enthusiasts. I'm giving up on trying to point out the flaws in it, and would just strongly suggest to any people reading this thread who actually need guidance to not trust a word he says.

I think a piece by piece rebuttal of all his lies and exaggerations would probably just be a waste at this point, he seems far too emotionally invested in his "opinion", although how you can have one of those where objective fact plays in is beyond me.
skyR
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada13817 Posts
March 19 2011 03:27 GMT
#46
On March 18 2011 10:02 billy5000 wrote:
I really appreciate your contribution! It's really hard to ask people about the most "cost effective" parts since the most common response is something like, "Personally, I'd spend a bit more on this because for a few more cash, you'll get a much better deal." It may be true, but it's a deal worth not taking when all I want is to play starcraft 2 and nothing more! It seems that it's degrading to talk about "older" generation parts whenever I check tomshardware, anandtech, and even on tl.

Anyway, would you mind posting a tl;dr version of your specs? Thanks


This is false. If you post on the TL tech support forums asking for help stating your budget, all the regulars of the forum will abide by that budget and even lower the cost for you. I have yet to seen any regular recommend a build over budget because personally they would spend more.

Tomshardware I'm not a huge fan of so I won't comment. Anandtech is for enthusiasts, of course all enthusiasts would shame on older generation parts.


On March 19 2011 08:58 Belial88 wrote:
Theres no reason to be playing at such a resolution unless A)you don't realize higher resolutions on a monitor with a lower native resolution is hurtful or B) you aren't a budget gamer.


On March 17 2011 04:12 Belial88 wrote:
Also note that you need to play on your monitor/TV's native resolution. Screens/resolutions/monitors are beyond the scope of this thread, as you probably have one anyways, but besides the fact resolution is about the 3rd or 4th most important thing (read: not most important) on a screen, playing above the number of pixels your monitor actually has may look nice by making things look small, but is really just reducing picture quality.


You need to learn more about displays since you don't seem to realize that the native resolution on LCD screens is the maximum resolution, you cannot play at a resolution higher than native on LCD screens.

You talk about how most monitors have a resolution much lower than 1080 which is completely false. Most monitors have a native of 1080 or 1050 and these can easily be found at a sale price of $100.

Also increasing resolution actually increases image quality because there are more pixels.
Aduromors
Profile Joined July 2009
United States279 Posts
March 19 2011 04:38 GMT
#47
http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/buyers-guide/2011/03/10/pc-hardware-buyer-s-guide-march-2011/2
Bit-Tech mentioned the dual-core socket-1156 Intel G6950 for $100 as a viable budget-range intel CPU, since it can be overclocked over 4ghz. I wouldn't recommend it over the amd X3 or x4 at stock speeds, but if you're willing to overclock it it's not a bad budget option


On March 19 2011 07:14 JingleHell wrote:
Whether it be writing a guide, a benchmark, or a product review, tech-related articles should be as objective as possible when possible. This guide fails that effort repeatedly, and doesn't constitute good, quality content that new builders should potentially try to learn from.

Edit: Fixed typo

Nobody is forcing you to buy a budget system, much like nobody is forcing you to read threads you don't like. Your criticisms are misguided as fuck and there's really no bad advise found in the OP. There's a general computer building thread with good guides to mid-range and higher-end builds there - this is not what this thread is for. Stop trolling.
Az0r_au
Profile Joined August 2010
Australia385 Posts
March 19 2011 05:51 GMT
#48
did you end up getting a temp monitor to work on your cpu?
kingJY
Profile Joined January 2011
United States39 Posts
March 19 2011 07:21 GMT
#49
On March 19 2011 01:55 a176 wrote:
What do you guys think?

+ Show Spoiler +

ASUS DRW-24B1ST/BLK/B/AS Black SATA 24X DVD Burner - Bulk - OEM
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827135204

Xigmatek ASGARD II B/B CPC-T45UC-U01 Black / Black 0.8 mm SECC / Aluminum and Aluminum Mesh Bezel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811815004

SAMSUNG Spinpoint F4 HD322GJ/U 320GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive -Bare Drive
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822152244

GIGABYTE GV-R577UD-1GD Radeon HD 5770 1GB 128-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFireX Support Video Card
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125309

Antec EarthWatts Green EA-380D Green 380W Continuous power ATX12V v2.3 / EPS12V 80 PLUS BRONZE Certified Active PFC Power Supply
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371033

A-DATA 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10666) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model AD3U1333B2G9-DRH
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211364

ASRock H61M-S LGA 1155 Intel H61 Micro ATX Intel Motherboard
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157237

Intel Core i3-2100 Sandy Bridge 3.1GHz LGA 1155 65W Dual-Core Desktop Processor BX80623I32100
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115078

Subtotal: $492.92




You can save $13 on the hdd by switching to WD $29.99 for exact same thing
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0357772
kingJY
Profile Joined January 2011
United States39 Posts
March 19 2011 07:35 GMT
#50
To OP:: Good work on the thread. Gave me inspiration to tinker round a bit. I think I'll contribute to my future PC. I like to shop at Microcenter because they price-match everything even Newegg. As far as the Processor + Mobo combo, I'll have to shop around at the store and see what they gots, I just looked up what I found on their website. There's some more homework to do I know for a fact. And I have some questions here.

Total Cost so far $387.93 with Monitor, $347.93 after rebates, ($277.94 without Monitor and $237 after rebates)
for shizzle! Though I still need a Case, Keyboard and Mouse...


==MON==
$109.99
S201HL bd 20" Widescreen LED-backlight LCD Monitor
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0354438

c'mon, that's a nice deal i think. LED backlighting hm? Or is this just a piece of crap

==PROCESSOR==
$59.99
Pentium Dual Core E5700 LGA 775 Boxed Processor
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0355427

$70.99 @ newegg
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116381

I still don't know what the difference between this product and the i3 is... can anyone elaborate why I should spend $100 on it? I don't plan on overclocking it.
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0350692

==MOBO==
$59.99 ($49.99 after $10.00 mail-in rebate)
P43D3 LGA 775 P43 ATX Intel Motherboard
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0343064

$59.99 no rebate @ newegg
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813138185&Tpk=P43D3 LGA 775 P43 ATX

==GPU==
$49.99 ($19.99 after $30 mail-in rebate)
NVIDIA GeForce 8400 GS 1024MB DDR3 PCIe 2.0 x16 Video Card 01G-P3-1302-LR
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0354355

Not a bad video card for 20 bucks

==RAM==
$39.99
4GB DDR3-1333 (PC3-10666) CL9 Desktop Memory Kit (Two 2GB Memory Modules)
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0353218

I think it's a standard price.

==HDD==
$29.99
Western Digital AV 320GB 7,200RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5" Internal Hard Drive - Recertified
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0357772

cheap no matter what I look for....

==PSU==
$37.99
Antec Basiq 350 Watt ATX Power Supply
http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0257451

This is what I really need some help with, I think it's enough for what I want, but I could use some input. Should I go for something more?

==ACC==
todo::
-keyboard + mouse
-headset for venTrolololol

==CASE==
ummmmm
I'll shop the cheap massive collection...





so OP, I think I actually can build a computer for $350 WITH A MONITOR!! except the case...
{ToT}ColmA
Profile Joined November 2007
Japan3260 Posts
March 19 2011 09:52 GMT
#51
People should relax -_-

the title itself says it all, its a budget pc, that itself means it cant be highend, so why talk about i7 etc and as this is clearly for sc2 only use u dont ve to bring up other stuff. the build itself will play sc2 on a moderate level and thats the whole purpose of it, isnt it?

if people get offended by someone who has like a month of experience with hardware they should probably stop being so insecure~
The only virgins in kpop left are the fans
ThePurist
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada686 Posts
March 19 2011 11:27 GMT
#52
Great guide~
Feverus
Profile Joined April 2010
71 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-19 13:38:00
March 19 2011 13:37 GMT
#53
Good guide. I like the section on PSUs and motherboards. The only issues I have are as follows:

1. Hard drive space. Drives are cheap; the fact OP can stay under 100 GB relates only to his personal habits. Someone doing media work, for example, might easily use a terabyte. Family photos, a large music collection, or just a few games can really bump up the space. I would just explain that it's unrelated to Starcraft and unnecessary for it.

2. CPU. More than a few games require a faster CPU. Starcraft does for anything outside of 1v1, as do many other applications. I'd acknowledge that the guide does not apply to everything.

3. Display resolution. 1920x1080 has become or is becoming standard for 23" monitors now, and even some smaller ones. I just bought one for $99 from Dell as a second screen. This doesn't really apply to the recommendations - just something you might want to consider in the wording.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 19 2011 14:28 GMT
#54
On March 19 2011 13:38 Aduromors wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 19 2011 07:14 JingleHell wrote:
Whether it be writing a guide, a benchmark, or a product review, tech-related articles should be as objective as possible when possible. This guide fails that effort repeatedly, and doesn't constitute good, quality content that new builders should potentially try to learn from.

Edit: Fixed typo

Nobody is forcing you to buy a budget system, much like nobody is forcing you to read threads you don't like. Your criticisms are misguided as fuck and there's really no bad advise found in the OP. There's a general computer building thread with good guides to mid-range and higher-end builds there - this is not what this thread is for. Stop trolling.


I'm curious how you think I'm trolling to call this "guide" inaccurate and hostile.

Also, given some of the OP's statements, I'm not in the wrong place at all. Lets check it out with some excerpted sections.

However, don't turn away rich kids - I will tell you how to build a great system for cheap, not because we are skimping, but because we know what we need. By knowing that your system doesn't need as much power, or that SLI is stupid, or that despite having 2400mhz RAM your system can only run at 1333mhz, we can save a lot of money.
Pointless hostility, and sweeping generalizations that don't really accurately portray anything.

My advice - buy a $400 PC today, buy a $400 PC in 3 years, be able to play everything on max settings, and still spent less than an i7 $1500 system. Buying an i7 today is just as useful as buying an i7 10 years ago - there's just no point to it.
This is a series of bald-faced lies. Just because needing an i7 is situational, they aren't useless, and only an idiot would claim that a $400 PC will run everything at max now, let alone on a 3 year upgrade cycle.

SLI/Crossfire, NVidia and Radeon's take on using multiple graphics cards, are stupid. Plain and simple, there is no reason to do it for the budget, or rational, PC builder. You do not get a 200% performance, you get somewhere between 110% to 160%, the average around 140%. The extra heat can cause your system to slow down as increased heat over a certain point, generally around 60*C causes system parts to slow down
SLI/Xfire performance scaling is based on game, SLI profile, Driver, and hardware. SLI, on a game with a good profile, scales between 80-90%. Trying to find an average between the two manufacturers and every game would be beyond irrelevant anyway, there's too many factors. Also, any decent quality system isn't going to start crying like a girl at a miserly 60C. Maybe he should stop buying the cheapest parts on the market.

Here, a great article benchmarking all of today's GPUs in relative performance. The above tomshardware article is useful too.
http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/high_end_gpus.html
A 3dmark score as his benchmark when suggesting GPUs to people who probably haven't heard of it before? Why not a REAL benchmark, involving performance on games, since that's what he claims to be telling people how to build for?

theres no reason this article isn't for rich people - going anything above this guide's maximum recommendations is overkill for not only SC2, but all of the games out today, including Crysis 2
Ignoring the minor detail where Crysis 2 kind of isn't out yet, this is more needless hostility that feels like it's based in jealousy towards enthusiasts, and he's lying like a rug. Metro 2033 and DA2 would beat his suggested rig into the floor at max.

4GB will be enough to play SC2, stream, have multiple browsers, download, play music, and run a movie at the same time. There's no reason to get more.
No reason? Really? Can't name one? Maybe you shouldn't write a guide if you can't think of ways to use over 4GB RAM.

I see people recommend systems that either play max and they like but don't realize is overkill, recommend because their system sucks, and overall have no idea what is needed to play SC2. Remember, buying a PC is about buying what you need, not what is the best 'value'.
How do you know whether those people know it's overkill, or if, due to other tasks, it isn't? I see YOU recommending a lot of garbage because YOUR system sucks, and you think everyone else's should too. You're personally affronted by enthusiasts. Buying a PC is whatever you want it to be.

So again, feel free to explain to me how I'm trolling to call this guide unobjective and inaccurate.









Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 19 2011 23:30 GMT
#55
My comments about rich kids is tongue in cheek humor (the fact we are building a PC JUSRT to play a single game is not lost on me).

For a BUDGET pc to play SC2, intel is unnecessary. I am aware SC2 is optimized for intel, but the cheapest intel at 125 is only a dual core.

Womwomwom I discuss how overclocking may affect purchasing decisions for the budget builder. There are already many artickes (albeit horrible ones) on overclocking. You can do it, or not do it, it doesn't really matter.

Jinglehell:
My comment about rich kids not needing to turn away is about how this guide may be useful to those who aren't on a tight budget. I diont really care if you don't appreciate the humor. Its a rather boring topic that I am trying to make more intersting (to most anyways).

Its pretty well known AMD syystems start to lose performance around 60. Obviously some parts are different like video cards, but you are more than welcome to tell the intended audience of this guide that running at above 60*C is cool. You really aren't trolling?


As for RAM this is an SC2 pc guide. If you are going to stream and do crazy things, I assume the audience is smart enough to figure out what they'll need for that. Meanwhile, this is a guide to play starcraft 2 at all, with the added bonus of better than low grapphics. Your suggestions are just as extreme as fine, if mine are extreme at all, in how you apparently bash this system.

Isay other systems is overkill because of the low medium high ultra comparison page in the gpu section. My system doesn't suck, I spent 350 on it and play on all ultra, above 60fps average, on stock. Chill out.

In case any of you haven't realized, this is a stacraft 2 forum. This thread is posted in it. There are no other applications to this PC. I think to most people this would be obvious. Sorry I didn't make clear this PC may struggle with folding @ home (which is bs anyways, but thats because of the person behind it disagreeing with the fundamentals of physical chemistry established by more respectable academics)




And at stock setting yea its pretty beastly. I don't know where you guys get off on saying I dotnt play ultra at a decent fps and resolution. Do I play 1900x1028? No - if You did you would probably not need this guide. On the other hand I have tried it and was fine.

How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 19 2011 23:32 GMT
#56
Anyways sorry if any commenst aren't clear or the roughness of the guide (no regards to JH and other haters ofc) but I have only been posting via phone. Kinda busy so ill be able to clear things up more within the week.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 20 2011 00:02 GMT
#57
I don't recall saying over 60C is cool, I merely stated that isn't an explosion point unless you have incredibly low end gear.

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/Maximum-CPU-Temperature/143/9

Back in 2007, AMD was rated higher than you're saying they start dying from heat at now. If they lose performance under load, then you bought shoddy hardware, which comes back to my actual statement.

As for your sudden claims that this is an SC2 PC guide, maybe you should keep it that way instead of making blatantly false claims regarding what else the PC can do? Take out the hyperbole, and I'll retract my complaints about the same.

And again, as far as your comments about enthusiasts, building high end PCs for whatever reason we so choose, you sound bitter. The way you approach the subject is needlessly hostile and aggressive, and you high-handedly state that enthusiasts could stand to learn from your supreme expertise. It boils down to the technical nature of a guide, and you kill it by turning it into a personal attack.

If you really think enthusiasts could learn from you, you shouldn't start by lying about the capabilities of a cheap PC (max settings on any game, $400 machine? Nope), and you certainly shouldn't make personal attacks on people for the crime of not being broke.
iloveroo
Profile Joined February 2009
Canada294 Posts
March 20 2011 02:44 GMT
#58
I am currently building my own computer, I have the parts but have not yet bought any of yet, still trying to find the best deals.
After reading this thread makes me rethink of buying all the expensive stuff and go and buy the cheap stuff to play atleast most games on high with GOOD fps.

This thread is good, but.. it keeps saying something like "will be able to play starcraft2 in max settings" , for you saying this does this mean in max settings for starcraft2 will I have good fps? doubt it. I would probably reword it and say play on medium or high with GOOD fps. basically any computer can play any game on max settings but w/ horrible fps.
Aduromors
Profile Joined July 2009
United States279 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-20 07:12:12
March 20 2011 07:10 GMT
#59
On March 19 2011 23:28 JingleHell wrote:
Show nested quote +
However, don't turn away rich kids - I will tell you how to build a great system for cheap, not because we are skimping, but because we know what we need. By knowing that your system doesn't need as much power, or that SLI is stupid, or that despite having 2400mhz RAM your system can only run at 1333mhz, we can save a lot of money.
Pointless hostility, and sweeping generalizations that don't really accurately portray anything.

Overspending on PSUs, ram and dual-gpu setups can be a huge waste of money though

On March 19 2011 23:28 JingleHell wrote:
Show nested quote +
My advice - buy a $400 PC today, buy a $400 PC in 3 years, be able to play everything on max settings, and still spent less than an i7 $1500 system. Buying an i7 today is just as useful as buying an i7 10 years ago - there's just no point to it.
This is a series of bald-faced lies. Just because needing an i7 is situational, they aren't useless, and only an idiot would claim that a $400 PC will run everything at max now, let alone on a 3 year upgrade cycle.

Following the OP, you could, in theory, get an athalon x3 or x4 with a GTX 460 768mb for less than $450 usd. At 1680x1050 that should last 3 years easily

A 3dmark score as his benchmark when suggesting GPUs to people who probably haven't heard of it before? Why not a REAL benchmark, involving performance on games, since that's what he claims to be telling people how to build for?

idk. But SLI is rarely cost efficient when compared to anything other than the biggest $500 flagship cards, which have a cost/performance ratio that's xxxtremely bad. SLI is probably great for 2560x1600 monitors but this is definitely not the thread for that kind of recommendation

Show nested quote +
theres no reason this article isn't for rich people - going anything above this guide's maximum recommendations is overkill for not only SC2, but all of the games out today, including Crysis 2
Ignoring the minor detail where Crysis 2 kind of isn't out yet, this is more needless hostility that feels like it's based in jealousy towards enthusiasts, and he's lying like a rug. Metro 2033 and DA2 would beat his suggested rig into the floor at max.

Metro 2033 is a bit unfair because it's a really ugly eastern european mess that doesn't run well on anything. I heard DA2 ran badly on nvidia GPUs due to a driver problem but I think that's fixed now, it's not that system intensive and any build from the OP with a 4850 or more would run it fine

Show nested quote +
4GB will be enough to play SC2, stream, have multiple browsers, download, play music, and run a movie at the same time. There's no reason to get more.
No reason? Really? Can't name one? Maybe you shouldn't write a guide if you can't think of ways to use over 4GB RAM.

Basically this from the other thread:
On July 21 2010 11:35 FragKrag wrote:
Don't need 8GB of RAM

4GB of RAM is the standard now. There is almost no need at the current moment to get more or less than 4GB. There are certain cases in which extra RAM may be useful such as heavy Photoshop use. Like many parts it's heavily dependent on what you and what applications you use.

Ram's cheap right now so it's not a bad idea to buy up 8gb now for the future, but still it seems dumb to recommend more than 4gb of ram in a budget PC thread

Show nested quote +
I see people recommend systems that either play max and they like but don't realize is overkill, recommend because their system sucks, and overall have no idea what is needed to play SC2. Remember, buying a PC is about buying what you need, not what is the best 'value'.
How do you know whether those people know it's overkill, or if, due to other tasks, it isn't? I see YOU recommending a lot of garbage because YOUR system sucks, and you think everyone else's should too. You're personally affronted by enthusiasts. Buying a PC is whatever you want it to be.

So again, feel free to explain to me how I'm trolling to call this guide unobjective and inaccurate.

I'm sorry your offended at people who like to save money on their hobbies / just want a computer that handles sc2 and general desktop things well enough
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 20 2011 13:15 GMT
#60
Yknow, Aduromors, I get the feeling that if you had written this guide to begin with, I would have a lot less complaints. At the least, you're able to discuss it rationally.

I never argued that the concept behind this guide was good. My issue was always with 2 main things.

1: Rhetoric attacking enthusiasts, while suggesting they could learn something from this guide. (Not really likely, since the majority of enthusiasts have much more in mind than playing on low-mid and a slow upgrade cycle.)

2: Major exaggerations and inaccuracies. It was never about the fact that a budget PC is possible, it was about what the OP said could be done with a budget PC, which frankly ignored reality.

As for Metro and DA2 being unfair choices for pointing out, they ARE two of the most demanding DX11 games on the market right now. Yes, DA2 has major driver related issues with Nvidia. (Not resolved yet that I know of, without either 460 SLI or a flagship level card, I would have had to beat it below max settings.)

I know as well as you do how situational my disagreement with the OP is. The thing is, he was stating things in a categorical all or nothing kind of way that belied the situational uses. Again, it wasn't about whether a budget PC could be expected to do those things, it was his claims that they could, and anything more was pure waste.
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-20 15:50:43
March 20 2011 15:48 GMT
#61
On March 20 2011 08:30 Belial88 wrote:
My comments about rich kids is tongue in cheek humor (the fact we are building a PC JUSRT to play a single game is not lost on me).

For a BUDGET pc to play SC2, intel is unnecessary. I am aware SC2 is optimized for intel, but the cheapest intel at 125 is only a dual core.


You do realize you said yourself SC2 is optimized for dual core, in your OP? Isn't it logical to get the best dual-core CPU then? A dual-core cpu+mobo that costs less than $200 but outperforms a $300+ alternative system?

http://techreport.com/articles.x/20188/6

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4083/the-sandy-bridge-review-intel-core-i7-2600k-i5-2500k-core-i3-2100-tested/20
starleague forever
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 21 2011 03:54 GMT
#62
If you really think enthusiasts could learn from you, you shouldn't start by lying about the capabilities of a cheap PC (max settings on any game, $400 machine? Nope), and you certainly shouldn't make personal attacks on people for the crime of not being broke.


Didn't make personal attack, I already went over this - if you don't like my proletarian humor, tough. But I do play on max settings.

This thread is good, but.. it keeps saying something like "will be able to play starcraft2 in max settings" , for you saying this does this mean in max settings for starcraft2 will I have good fps? doubt it. I would probably reword it and say play on medium or high with GOOD fps. basically any computer can play any game on max settings but w/ horrible fps.


I have an Athlon II x3 450 and GTX 460 (which I believe is bottlenecked by my CPU). I have over 60+ fps on max settings in 1v1 ladder all game long as my average, on stock settings. There is slight, albeit perceptible drops during custom games when insane things happen, but it's brief.

Over 30fps is considered 'good' in most SC2 benchmarks since this isn't a first person shooter, but I consider at least 50fps good.

You do realize you said yourself SC2 is optimized for dual core, in your OP? Isn't it logical to get the best dual-core CPU then? A dual-core cpu+mobo that costs less than $200 but outperforms a $300+ alternative system?


Good point. I'd say that going higher than dual core is better for the future, something that budget builders probably don't care about but it's always nice. SC2, as I said, gets a minor, albeit 'big' minor, benefit from a tri core. The improved architecture of the i3-2100 and L3 probably puts it on par with the Athlon II x3 3.2ghz, if not better for SC2 performance, but not enough to warrant the price premium at all. A quadcore Phenom 3.2ghz (which is roughly the exact same price) is probably a better buy, but again it's arguable. My point in general was that that specific processor wasn't worth the money anyways, although maybe being a step up.

Honestly it could go either way for which is better (i3 or phenom ii x4) but that is beyond the scope of this thread.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
mav451
Profile Joined May 2010
United States1596 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-21 05:03:27
March 21 2011 04:48 GMT
#63
MC currently has an i3 2100 combo at $160.
http://images.c2m00b.com/MicroCenter_Images/Node_0/22166.jpg

As for comparing the i3 2100 to the Athlon II (Propus) or PhII, it's not even close; reference the Anandtech numbers from the link a176 posted. It's my belief that if Intel released a true Nehalem dual-core in 2009, as part of the Lynnfield launch, Intel would have captured the entire low-end market as well. Lucky for AMD they didn't, and Intel ends up releasing the Clarkdale garbage in early 2010.
(If this sounds familiar to you, it's b/c I said the same thing back in January, when the reviews first came out: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=179654&currentpage=3#60

The next step up is only $220 total ($149 i5 2400 and $69 mobo). Is an additional $60 for a SB quad-core over a dual-core a worthy use of money? IMO a resounding yes - check the TR link a176 posted for i5 2400 numbers. But if you can't justify spending an additionl $30/year over a 2 year period, then the $160 i3 2100 combo is still on the table.

My point is that it's much easier to skimp slightly on the GPU (and then upgrade per your needs in 12 months) vs. replacing the CPU mid-cycle b/c you figure out you needed a quad-core later. Not everyone needs the P67 mobos, and when you consider that even at stock the Intel chips are so far ahead of the AMD offerings, and for low prices (starting at $160), it's getting tougher to argue against it.
With no power comes no responsibility?
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 21 2011 05:24 GMT
#64
Right, but a $140 processor isn't really budget anymore, and isn't really necessary for SC2
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
billy5000
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States865 Posts
March 21 2011 07:37 GMT
#65
Belial88, despite the criticisms attacking the rhetorics of the guide, I admire the effort. Some people really need to understand that you're not getting paid (obviously) or creating a legitimate hardware article, and that you're doing some of us a huge favor by sharing a successful personal experience.

The main concern for building a budget computer is that there is a fine line between theory and practicality. In other words, there are a few risks involved to have sc2 run smoothly while trying to limit the costs - the optimal cost. As a frugal college student who has no use for computers other than sc2 and school work, this really reassures me when I get the chance to build a computer.

While I agree that this guide doesn't belong to anantech, I find your experience very insightful.
Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder, 'Why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand. Vonnegut
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 21 2011 08:05 GMT
#66
The merit in this guide is that it is personal experience. I share *GOOD* technical information, my information is solid, and since it's personal experience, it's proven. I don't know what people are ranting off about, because they are wrong - I run at max settings just fine, and I can tell my system is too powerful.

This is for BUDGET SC2 - so people reading this aren't doing anything more demanding than playing SC2, and no one is going to be playing at 1900x1080 resolution. Either one of those conditions means this guide isn't for you.

I'll edit it a bit later but been busy this week. Like I said, I didn't even mean to post it yet.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 21 2011 13:35 GMT
#67
Y'know, if the OP said what you're qualifying it to have meant to begin with, Belial, maybe you wouldn't have gotten comments about it.

Check back: I never said you can't run SC2 at max settings, I said you can't run EVERY game at max settings, which you claimed a $400 PC can do on a 3 year upgrade cycle.

I never said this won't give you a budget SC2 PC, I said you exaggerate the other functions it's capable of.

You've tried to rebrand your hostility towards people with more money than you as humor now, and you know what? I'll let that one slide right now, mostly because I find your humor funny in how flat it fell due to the obvious root cause of bitterness.
Ssoulle
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United Kingdom149 Posts
March 21 2011 15:04 GMT
#68
So if I said I spent more on my Graphics card than you spent on your whole computer, would you be mad and call me a rich kid just because I can afford it ?

In all seriousness, I will support some points in his OP and thread.

4850s are the bomb, I was able to run Crysis at Max settings with two of these in crossfire with a Q6600. They are real workhorse cards but get very hot. [100C] under very heavy load. They can handle this but the cooling on them isn't the best, so you will find alot of that heat going into your PC. The OP really needs to mention this as it will heat up other parts of your system.

Solid State drives are also the bomb, but I reccomend Intel ones surprisingly. Ive had 3 drives, 2 very quick failures in warranty [OCZ and OCZ]. Had other SSDs fail on friends. Intel ones seem to be the most reliable. In terms of general hard drives. Buy smaller ones and RAID them together. 500+ GB hard drives are unreliable [ive got 4 and 2 still work now]. Where as I have an old 120GB drive thats so old I don't even know and it still works and it has had alot more use.

I will also back up the OP on RAM timings. Just because the mhz is higher, doesn t mean the timings are. Granted my RAM is 1800 mhz but I choose it over the 2000 mhz because of the lower timings.

With PSUs, do research also on what the wattage output is. The difference between Peak and Continous needs to be addressed in this thread aswell. Look for PSUs generally with Quad V12 rails. This will cost you extra but I see alot of people looking at the PSU as an area to save money when infact Id properly get the most quality possible in this area whatever PC your building. Also, the OP reccomends that 500W is overkill. I say not, I always get at least 100w over what I need, for future proofing. Having worked on fixing Cisco Power Supples as a job, running a 500W PSU at 500W all the time is not good practise. Its better to have some slack.

With regards to your comments about Caps, do you even know how they work? The build quality inside is what judges whether a cap will work for its lifetime or not. Those Solid caps if contructed incorrectly are just as likely to fail. Also, bigger caps don't tend to fail as often as smaller ones. Your picture of the expanded caps is very unlikely to happen in a computer and more likely to happen in a power supply.
O.o
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 21 2011 15:41 GMT
#69
^your the one who seems unable to see the obvious. Its a guide, in teamliquid, there's a thread linked in the first sentence of the post about a PC just to play only SC2. Your the one falling flat, the technical information is clearly very good and all you can do is keep posting in a thread where you don't need to.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Zeke50100
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2220 Posts
March 21 2011 16:08 GMT
#70
On March 22 2011 00:41 Belial88 wrote:
^your the one who seems unable to see the obvious. Its a guide, in teamliquid, there's a thread linked in the first sentence of the post about a PC just to play only SC2. Your the one falling flat, the technical information is clearly very good and all you can do is keep posting in a thread where you don't need to.


You're advertising that it can run other games (Crysis 2) on max settings for less than $350, which is a lie >.< You need a monitor, a keyboard, a mouse, and most importantly, an operating system (and don't assume everybody will use linux, because its support for many programs and games isn't optimal).

By the way, "max settings" often assumes native resolution. Nobody cares if you can run max settings on 16x9 pixel resolutions (an extreme example, but true)
Serejai
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
6007 Posts
March 21 2011 16:32 GMT
#71
On March 22 2011 00:41 Belial88 wrote:
^your the one who seems unable to see the obvious. Its a guide, in teamliquid, there's a thread linked in the first sentence of the post about a PC just to play only SC2. Your the one falling flat, the technical information is clearly very good and all you can do is keep posting in a thread where you don't need to.


Nobody here is disapproving of you putting up a guide. The issue is that you only have one month of experience (like, half of your post history is you asking TL for advice building your first computer) and suddenly you come here making a guide and claiming everything you say is 100% fact because you said it, as if you had some sort of automatic credibility just by making a thread.

In reality most of what you said is false or incomplete information and is outright misleading. I've sold custom built PCs for a living for the last 8 years, and I would never sell someone a $350 system for gaming. It's just not worth it when you could spend $100-200 more for something that will last you three years instead of one.

I really don't feel your thirty days of experience qualifies you to call everyone who disagrees with you wrong based on your "personal experience", which is pretty much what you've been doing all thread.

You can't come in here telling people that they'll be able to run SC2 or Crysis 2 or whatever else at "max settings" with a $350 computer, because that implies 1080p, AA/AF, and low framerates above 30FPS which simply is not going to happen.

Change your op to state "medium-high graphics" and I doubt you'd have a single complaint in this entire thread.
I HAVE 5 TOAST POINTS
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 21 2011 16:49 GMT
#72
On March 22 2011 00:41 Belial88 wrote:
^your the one who seems unable to see the obvious. Its a guide, in teamliquid, there's a thread linked in the first sentence of the post about a PC just to play only SC2. Your the one falling flat, the technical information is clearly very good and all you can do is keep posting in a thread where you don't need to.


Quote me where *I* said a single word about your PC's ability to play SC2 reasonably well? Other people have questioned that.

It's a guide... yes. A guide is generally supposed to be objective. This is TL, where accuracy is favored over opinion, especially in cases where opinion is irrelevant. (Computers tend to be a pretty objective subject.)

The thread linked in the first post about a PC just to play SC2 has zero bearing on your other claims regarding what that same PC can do. You have yet to prove anything, you just repeatedly say that it works, and everyone else is wrong. That is neither objective, or really useful. If you had actually said in the OP what you've since qualified the outright lies to theoretically have meant, I would have no complaint about accuracy.
holynorth
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States590 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-21 17:02:20
March 21 2011 16:58 GMT
#73
Just wanted to throw in my opinion.

I found the discussion here in this thread more helpful than the actual guide. I think the main problem with you, Belial88, is that you had a ridiculously long thread where you updated it with your indecisive questions asking people what you should do, then going against their opinion. Then you post a guide.

But other than that, cool guide. I wish I had found it a month ago before I build my budget computer. I think the i3 2100 is definitely the best choice though. I wish I had gone with that over my Phenom II X4.

Edit: Your guide is also pretty biased towards the choices you made, almost like you're justifying why you went with something compared to a different choice. Try and drop this if you want to be taken seriously.
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
March 21 2011 17:21 GMT
#74
settings are highly relative to resolution just because a 4850 maxes for you doesn't mean it's going to max for someone playing at 1080p
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 21 2011 18:19 GMT
#75

So if I said I spent more on my Graphics card than you spent on your whole computer, would you be mad and call me a rich kid just because I can afford it ?


No. I wouldn't really say anything to you about it. Obviously you bought it for reasons other than SC2, as it's much more power than needed for just SC2:WoL. However, if you were someone who didn't really know much or were building a PC, you could read my guide and realize that (since a simple google or benchmark search would show such a GPU > 460, my highest recommendation) your GPU will play SC2 just fine, and that maybe you need a bit more power on your PSU than what I recommended.

4850s are the bomb, I was able to run Crysis at Max settings with two of these in crossfire with a Q6600. They are real workhorse cards but get very hot. [100C] under very heavy load. They can handle this but the cooling on them isn't the best, so you will find alot of that heat going into your PC. The OP really needs to mention this as it will heat up other parts of your system.


I mention how hot Fermi cards tend to get. I also mention how hot SLI/Crossfire can get (one of the reasons not to get them, which would compound cost issues for budget builders who would need to compensate with $/cooling). I also briefly mention some air cooling options that are good for budget builders and those interested in taking on overclocking on a budget. But, going with stock options and a well ventilated case like the NZXT Gamma or any case picked using my recommendations, heating shouldn't be an issue until you start overclocking (which is something other guides will cover and talk about).

But, of course, I can add a note.

Solid State drives are also the bomb,


There's no way SSDs could even be discussed seriously on a budget build. An extra $10 could go a long way in increasing CPU performance even, given how tight we are working here (although I went over the best budget buys and what's even necessary, spending an extra $10 on a CPU will still be appreciated).

With PSUs, do research also on what the wattage output is. The difference between Peak and Continous needs to be addressed in this thread aswell. Look for PSUs generally with Quad V12 rails. This will cost you extra but I see alot of people looking at the PSU as an area to save money when infact Id properly get the most quality possible in this area whatever PC your building. Also, the OP reccomends that 500W is overkill. I say not, I always get at least 100w over what I need, for future proofing. Having worked on fixing Cisco Power Supples as a job, running a 500W PSU at 500W all the time is not good practise. Its better to have some slack.


I'll mention that it's recommended, for performance, that your computer should run at 70-80% of your PSU's max wattage. This is why I recommend and describe how to identify a quality PSU - for example my 430D has about 380W on the 12v rails, and my PC uses around 270 or so roughly - essentially, I made sure that my PC ran on 70% of my total PSU wattage. But running at 70-80% of your PSU's total, you should still only need the wattage as I recommended. I know getting a bad PSU can really screw you over, but if you have enough consistent, quality power, then you have enough power. I describe how to calculate that so people can avoid problems. It would be misleading to say you are riding a fine line, it's more like you're either over or under and the PSU is either consistent and quality or not. But getting 100w more than you need is unnecessary - I tell people how to figure out exactly what they need in this guide. Why would a budget builder get more than they need? Now, there is a very real difference between being safe and having headroom (that 70-80% that you need) and just getting unnecessary power. Of course, if you plan to add fans or accessories than you want to account for that. But I definately should include that 70-80% thing, I don't think I mentioned that. I guess we agree here.

With regards to your comments about Caps, do you even know how they work? The build quality inside is what judges whether a cap will work for its lifetime or not. Those Solid caps if contructed incorrectly are just as likely to fail. Also, bigger caps don't tend to fail as often as smaller ones. Your picture of the expanded caps is very unlikely to happen in a computer and more likely to happen in a power supply.


If you want to add more information in regards to motherboard quality, just PM me what I should add. I feel like I added more than what most people know, and probably bordered on what most people would probably just ignore. There is ALOT more information on VRMs but this is a guide, and what I said should be more than enough to help people make the right buying decision. Yes, some solid capacitors are worse than others, but for a budget builder, having solid capacitors at all is probably good enough for any air cooling overclocking, if at all, on a quad core, if not dualcore, that they would be using. I get what you are saying, but a 4+1 electrolytic with taiwanese electrolytic capacitors would be just fine for a budget bulder who isn't overclocking anyways.


You're advertising that it can run other games (Crysis 2) on max settings for less than $350, which is a lie >.< You need a monitor, a keyboard, a mouse, and most importantly, an operating system (and don't assume everybody will use linux, because its support for many programs and games isn't optimal).

By the way, "max settings" often assumes native resolution. Nobody cares if you can run max settings on 16x9 pixel resolutions (an extreme example, but true)


It will run fine on other games, max settings on SC2. I'll clear up the guide, like I said, when I have time, on a lot of things. As for peripherals, most budget builders should have that taken care of, but I'll mention that too. Budget builders also won't be playing at max resolutions either.

The issue is that you only have one month of experience (like, half of your post history is you asking TL for advice building your first computer) and suddenly you come here making a guide and claiming everything you say is 100% fact because you said it, as if you had some sort of automatic credibility just by making a thread.


I have a lot of information that many experienced builders won't know simply because there are new parts on the market all the time. Do you think the most advanced PC builders may know that the 460 is the best buy right now, or what exactly is the best worst card to play SC2 now? No, probably not - I'm taking my very specific experience, and explaining it to everyone. In short, the specifics of this guide pretty much boils down to this:

* My GTX 460 plays everything maxed. The 4850 is about half as good, which you could roughly translate to 30fps instead of 60fps, but it's the only card at that price level with that high of a performance. The 4830 is even cheaper, and again, the best at it's even lower price level. The GT430, a generally horrible card, can be found for extremely cheap right now, and plays at Medium. Now, many more knowledgeable people probably know how all the GPU's out there compare, but they may not know what all of today's budget cards cost, and how they perform SC2. This guide, is more up to date.
* My athon II x3 plays on everything maxed. I unlocked it, and understood the performance gain I got from it. I underclocked, and overclocked to see how it affected performance. I understand x2 is more than enough. I know the price on the x2, and the x3. I know an x4 isn't necessary.

Then, I simply add some basic information that is lacking on most guides. None of the information I posted is very technical, in depth, or exhaustive by any means. But it is something I haven't seen in any guide out there put together in the same way I did. It's more information than any other guide has given, and as someone who built a budget PC, it was a big pain in the ass for me trying to figure out why one accessory is better than another. It's not that my guide is awesome, it's that every single guide out there today is outdated or sucks. The biggest thing my guide has though, is basic information to determine how to buy parts, so it will never be outdated, in a sense, whereas other guides either are outdated or aren't in-depth enough.

In reality most of what you said is false or incomplete information and is outright misleading. I've sold custom built PCs for a living for the last 8 years, and I would never sell someone a $350 system for gaming. It's just not worth it when you could spend $100-200 more for something that will last you three years instead of one.


You really don't seem to understand. You are really thick. This is a Starcraft 2 Gaming System. This may blow your mind, but Starcraft 2 will run just as good on this system today as it will in 20 years! This is because games, once developed, don't magically change specs! This is a Starcraft 2 system. That's it! I must be some kind of huge asshole (since its not you obviously) for making a Starcraft 2 PC building guide in a Starcraft 2 forum. Maybe I should post this guide on the Crysis forums.

I really don't feel your thirty days of experience qualifies you to call everyone who disagrees with you wrong based on your "personal experience", which is pretty much what you've been doing all thread.


But all of the trolls on this thread are either calling me a liar or saying this system won't run Crysis 3 when it comes out. No one is debating the technical information. Sorry I haven't built PCs for 8 years and have nothing to show for it, but you don't need to be super smart to build a PC - that's the beauty of it. It's also may be a huge surprise to people, since many don't do it because they don't know it can be done for so cheap. So you really are kind of irritating, that somehow this guide should be taken down because it's somehow mean to rich people because they blew so much money when they didn't need to.

This guide will help people play Starcraft 2 when they couldn't otherwise - I can say this as a FACT as I can play perfectly fine, when 2 months ago I thought I'd have to quit the game, or buy a pos PC to play on Low. You can make a functioning, high quality PC that can play SC2 on good graphics for under $300. Maybe such a PC will only do Medium at a lower resolution, but the key note is that you can actually play SC2 on it. This should be great news to anyone who thought they wouldn't be able to play SC2. And even better, for $350 you can play everything at ultra.

So I never claimed to be smart or any sort of expert. I post where I get the source for the technical information and benchmarks/comparisons. When you get down to it, everything here is either anecdotal or plagiarism of other, very basic articles. Quit being so elitist.

Change your op to state "medium-high graphics" and I doubt you'd have a single complaint in this entire thread.


There is a note in GPU section noting that if you are playing at max resolution, you probably don't need this guide but you may need to bump things up. However, the GTX 460 plays max resolution at Ultra just fine, as Tomshardware article shows and my experience shows. Also, SC2 does not have in-game anti-aliasing (it's an nvidia setting that is force applied). I'm not taking it down because I already addressed it in the gudie, in the discussion, and my experience as well as an article already says you can play max settings/max resolution on the 460.

Quote me where *I* said a single word about your PC's ability to play SC2 reasonably well? Other people have questioned that.


I mentioned I wasn't really reading the thread in depth (posting via phone and busy). But I'm pretty sure you were hating, but whatever.

The thread linked in the first post about a PC just to play SC2 has zero bearing on your other claims regarding what that same PC can do. You have yet to prove anything, you just repeatedly say that it works, and everyone else is wrong. That is neither objective, or really useful. If you had actually said in the OP what you've since qualified the outright lies to theoretically have meant, I would have no complaint about accuracy.


Most people are willing to take my word or the many benchmark articles I posted backing up what I said, but if you want my fraps score or screenshots/videos with FPS, I'd probably tell you millions of such videos exist of people showing off their hardware on youtube of SC2, but if you begged, I'd tell you that you were a troll, but if you asked nicely a third tiem, i'd do it. So far, no one has asked me to do so because either they aren't a troll and read my guide thoroughly or just believed me because maybe someone who is willing to write such a guide rather than flame it wouldn't be a total jerk.

If you had actually said in the OP what you've since qualified the outright lies to theoretically have meant, I would have no complaint about accuracy.


What lies? The TH article shows the 460 playing at everything Ultra just fine (and mind you that's in a benchmark, not standard gameplay). They also state a 3.0ghz dualcore will play everything great with no problems, and better is just simply that, better. They show what gets 60fps, and what gets more.

I think the main problem with you, Belial88, is that you had a ridiculously long thread where you updated it with your indecisive questions asking people what you should do, then going against their opinion. Then you post a guide


I went with their opinion. There were about 3 or 4 people saying ridiculous, slightly more expensive recommendation, but a few solid people like Myrmidon, i pretty much followed to a T. I actually changed almost every key component from the initial post to something else based on recommendations - most of the time, to something more expensive.

I think the i3 2100 is definitely the best choice though. I wish I had gone with that over my Phenom II X4.


For SC2, actually, I'm starting to think that may be true. I may discuss that actually, when I edit the guide. Everyone knows that Intel is just so much better than AMD.

Your guide is also pretty biased towards the choices you made, almost like you're justifying why you went with something compared to a different choice. Try and drop this if you want to be taken seriously.


Noted, but I did want to make clear that what I have works, and if I did everything again i probably would've went with a weaker GPU, maybe a better motherboard (found a better one that was cheaper actually), and didn't need a 430 psu. I also wanted to make the article a bit more interesting as opposed to being really dry.

i'll clear things up later though, been kind of busy this week.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 21 2011 18:38 GMT
#76
In consecutive sentences, you admit to not reading what you were responding to, and say the things you didn't provide a satisfactory answer to were just hating. That's hysterical.

As far as me saying you outright lied, if you actually think that your wording doesn't claim that this budget PC for SC2 can play every game currently out, and coming out in the next 3 years, on maxed settings, I assure you, it does.

-Side Note
By the way, true maxed settings is every setting defined in game maxed, including AA/AF and max DX version components, any official high-res texture packs like DA2's, and native resolution, generally with a bare minimum of pseudo-HD at 720p.-End side note.

I assure you, even if it wasn't your intention to make that statement, it IS the implication created by your wording.

Several times you post opinions about things, and while they may only be your opinion about them from the context of budget, you say it in such a way as to give the appearance that those things are always a bad decision and never useful.

So, if that's actually the case, I'll happily help you edit your grammar so that your guide doesn't appear to be ripping on things you aren't trying to rip on, if you'd like.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-21 19:11:26
March 21 2011 19:09 GMT
#77
I didn't say I didn't read. What I meant to make clear was that I may mix up who I'm responding to or may not format what I say perfectly. It's still obvious there be trollers.

As far as me saying you outright lied, if you actually think that your wording doesn't claim that this budget PC for SC2 can play every game currently out, and coming out in the next 3 years, on maxed settings, I assure you, it does.

-Side Note
By the way, true maxed settings is every setting defined in game maxed, including AA/AF and max DX version components, any official high-res texture packs like DA2's, and native resolution, generally with a bare minimum of pseudo-HD at 720p.-End side note.


Crysis 2 isn't even out. The system I have, or of the max parts I recommend, play the Crysis 2 demo on max settings just fine. Obviously some games are harder than others, or may be impossible to max on, on any system. This is a budget PC building guide, it plays most games on max, if not handles all at least fine, and definately handles starcraft 2. If you're seriously going to go and and cry so much about a Starcraft 2 guide because there may be a few games out there that will only play on High, not ultra, on a $300 system, that's pretty annoying. I already said I'll edit some of that stuff anyways.

Several times you post opinions about things, and while they may only be your opinion about them from the context of budget, you say it in such a way as to give the appearance that those things are always a bad decision and never useful.


Such as? I state how resolution impacts the 4830/4850, and the GTX 460 will handle SC2 on any resolution, any setting (th benchmark shows the gtx 460 playable but slightly impacted by highest resolution ultra with AA, and only in a ridiculous benchmark setting, not a situation you would ever face in multiplayer game). My statements are in regards to SC2. I dont even know where you are talking about. I dont ever say you can play all games out today with max settings, I simply say that the gtx 460 may be overkill on all games out today - note I dont say max settings, I say 'may', and that this is an SC2 guide not an "all games" guide. Also, I was only talking about the 460 in that instance, not the 4850 or 4830. heres multiple places I make clear where there may be issues

Radeon 4850 - at around $80, this is probably the best card to get for a budget build. You will be able to play on almost all settings maxed, provided you aren't playing at max resolution on a huge plasma TV. In which case you don't need to be here.

Also, resolutions can impact framerate more than settings. If you are playing at 1900 pixel width, you may need the GTX 460 for max or just get high on the 4850. Generally, most monitors have much lower than 1900 pixel width, and if you do happen to play on a Plasma TV, you probably don't need to be reading this article (on the other hand, theres no reason this article isn't for rich people - going anything above this guide's maximum recommendations is overkill for not only SC2, but all of the games out today, including Crysis 2). Also note that you need to play on your monitor/TV's native resolution. Screens/resolutions/monitors are beyond the scope of this thread, as you probably have one anyways, but besides the fact resolution is about the 3rd or 4th most important thing (read: not most important) on a screen, playing above the number of pixels your monitor actually has may look nice by making things look small, but is really just reducing picture quality.


so i dont see what you get your panties in a bunch from. i got a lot of help here and decided not to be a leech like everyone else who creates an account and posts a bunch of questions of "where do I plug in my mouse" and "how to build a computer?", and give back. Clearly you seem to have a problem with that since I'm posting extremely basic information that apparently only smart people like yourself are qualified to talk about and and that I recommend budget parts to play SC2 when such poor scrubs should just play tag. Yea, I'm a little aggravated you are totally derailing this when you could have simply PM'd me this, I would've gladly edited everything for you with no problem, and you aren't even discussing the technical information, offering ways to improve the guide besides your obvious problem with my humor or semantics, or talking about other computer equipment out there that may do the job or places to buy such stuff for cheap.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 21 2011 19:12 GMT
#78

settings are highly relative to resolution just because a 4850 maxes for you doesn't mean it's going to max for someone playing at 1080p


Right. I address this.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-21 19:13:48
March 21 2011 19:13 GMT
#79
If you think I never stated specific problems, it proves you didn't read anything before you cried troll and went on the defensive. Try again.
billy5000
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States865 Posts
March 21 2011 19:54 GMT
#80
As an unprejudiced individual reading this particular thread, I ask some of you to please discuss irrelevant matters via pm ><

Not a whole lot of people have the slightest care in learning how to write a professional guide. That's a job solely between a writer and his editor. Unfortunately, this thread is transitioning from a technical computer standpoint to a lesson in rhetorics.

"Pride only breeds quarrels, but wisdom is found in those who take advice."
Proverbs 13:10
Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly; Man got to sit and wonder, 'Why, why, why?' Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land; Man got to tell himself he understand. Vonnegut
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 21 2011 20:04 GMT
#81
It's actually transitioning more from an opinion piece with some technical suggestions (most of which he admits were plagiarized) to a lesson in semantics.

And I strongly suggest keeping religious texts out of the picture when trying to calm a thread down. Kind of counterproductive.

As far as writing a technical guide, the author should absolutely treat it as a professional work, otherwise you end up with the exact pool of legitimate issues being raised that this one has.
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-21 21:18:30
March 21 2011 21:01 GMT
#82
hey, if anyone has a good and valid opinion on these can u post or pm or email to jonnyp11@live.com, looking at these for my pc cuz with the current default geforce 7050 it just barely run crysis, moh, nfs shift, and nfs undercover so something that'll run these and hopefully newer games and i cant use online retailers, only retailers i can pick it up at (bestbuy, wallyworld, microcenter, and frys mainly), thanks mom and dad (im 14, not a 20+geek in the basement) and im also on a small budget (<100 please if u suggest), and idk my power supply, guessing 300-400 since its a ~$370emachine, and not gunna pointlessly open comp and get yelled at, and sorry for length and scatterdness, written as i think it with adhd aint so comprehendable (and im planning on building a comp sooner or later so longgevity is preferable, tiny budget)

Links:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/EVGA-Nvidia-GeForce-GT-430-Graphics-Card-with-1024MB-DDR3-Memory/15571983 (Got a $20 gift card, and i know its the same for more on 1 of the last 3, but micro is ~30min - 1hour away while wallyworld is ~5 - 10 min)

http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0328301 (not sure if i can get the money, mom ows me most of it from something i paid for that she said she'd repay me for but cnt so if im lucky shell let me get it out of my bank account and replace with every peny i get till its done)

http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0347361 (same as last)

http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0325952 (same, again)

http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0355874 (this and next 2 favs, found b4 reading this article and favs for price but not location)

http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0352694

http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0350276

please respond soon i really want to play these games, I <3 Crysis (played on my friends laptop and 1 of the best games ive ever played)

sry, and is it also a bad idea to just strip an old compaq on win xp and replace just about every part, cuz thats mine and my dad can fuck off when it comes to that thing, cuz i dont think he'll let me put anything in this but im gunna anyways, he says we cant replace this when he recently got a 27' i7 mac, a macbook, an iphone 4, and an ipad 3g 32gb(when it came out) (and thats part of the reason for my low budget and why my mom cant pay me, our power bill is fucking rediculus plus other bills, we got way too much stuff)
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 21 2011 21:45 GMT
#83
Compared to those cards, since neither will get you strong DX11 performance, you may do better sticking with the slightly stronger 9800 GTX.

http://www.microcenter.com/single_product_results.phtml?product_id=0355188

Never used Zotac myself, though, so you may want to ask around on their reliability.

Mind you, that card isn't going to smoke any of those old DX10 games into the floor, but it will get functional frames at decent settings in Crysis.
a176
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Canada6688 Posts
March 21 2011 21:51 GMT
#84
Ask your dad if he can install windows on the imac and allow you to play games there.
starleague forever
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-21 23:19:03
March 21 2011 23:11 GMT
#85
thanks, i never woul've caught that 9800, thats a way better option, iv looked b4 and never seen any that were that cheap, but never looked that hard cuz the ones ive seen were adviously a considerable amount more, and a176, i wish that was possible, but i know that there's no way in hell that he'd ever let me do that, he doesn't like any for m of games downloaded even on this computer. but again, thanks jinglehell, that cards probably gunna last alot longer too if i can get it, and its cheaper than the gt 430 at walmart then with that mail in rebate its near half off, which should convince my mom, and might even bring my dad over, otherwise ima lookin for a good cpu and motherboard if u 2 are interested in helping out with that, which brings me back to that ending question, could i strip my compaq and stick these parts into it, thanks in advance and for the help u've already given, and if u want, my gt=iGOD x KINGz, im on most days but lately ive been on this searching around alot

for the reliability ill tell u in a couple mins, im gunna look this card up on newegg.com which is supposed to be really good at deals and plenty of reviews according to every forum ive visited.

really wish walmart would do stuff like this, the $20 gift card and WAY shorter trip would be nice cuz i aint paying for shipping and i dont think they have any, or at least on their graphic cards
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-21 23:30:29
March 21 2011 23:24 GMT
#86
On March 22 2011 06:45 JingleHell wrote:
Mind you, that card isn't going to smoke any of those old DX10 games into the floor, but it will get functional frames at decent settings in Crysis.


so how will this last and will it do anything on dx11, since i just thought of that after 5 mins of hapiness since i wont exactly be able to go out and replace this in a year when the whole market will be full of dx11 almost only and the dx10 games will be empty on multiplayer

and when i look at the specs, mind u i am a complete newb, the gt 430 has all around better specs other than those 18 or so extra cuda cores, scratch that, i looked at the specs on nvidea.com and saw the tfr was 3 times better and the mem bandwidth was 2 times better.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 21 2011 23:30 GMT
#87
Most games are still playable in 9/10. DX11 GPUs are probably a minimum of 2 years from sufficient market saturation for developers to stop making their games compatible with DX9/10.

That GPU won't let you utilize DX11 effects, but until the games stop being backwards DX compatible, that won't be an issue for you.

Plus, many games are coming out multi-platform these days, and consoles are only DX9. That will also be a limiting factor until the next-gen comes out. Some PC only releases may end up being a bit above that GPUs capabilities in that time frame, but by the time all titles are, you should be able to get a summer job pretty easy to take care of it.
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
March 21 2011 23:36 GMT
#88
oh yeah and are either the gt 430 or the 9800 gt worth looking into overclocking, which i idiotically tried with this 7050 and ended up crashing my computer and completely screwing away 2 hours getting the game it crashed on to reinstall cuz it did some wierd stuff and wanted the cd to install the digital download. and also my card has to be rolled back then the next time updated every time i start this comp, cuz otherwise it completely fucks up with colored dots everywhere once the game is in progress, not during anything else, only ingame, and thanks again i know im asking alot from complete strangers and asking for alot of yalls time that yall could probably use to do what i want to do once i can get this thing set up.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 21 2011 23:38 GMT
#89
I used to use 9800GTX+, OCed out of the box by EVGA. As for how well the Zotac card handles it, you'll just need to google it, that's all I'd do.
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
March 21 2011 23:43 GMT
#90
ok thats pretty good, so if i can get a good 2 plus years then i think it should be worth it and i'll probably talk to my grandad over summer about jobs i can do, he's the reason my dad can get all those fancy thing cuz he lives in the house too and he's set so the bills are gunna get paid no matter what, which he pretty much is now, but with him i may be able to build a computer by the time school starts next year or after christmas at the latest, i hope. i talk too much.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 21 2011 23:48 GMT
#91
Yeah, I'm actually starting to feel pretty creepy knowing so much about your personal life. Bear in mind, the 2 year mark is based mostly on a combination of a loose eye to trends and educated guesswork. I could be way off the mark. (But I doubt it.)
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
March 21 2011 23:58 GMT
#92
not sure what that second parts about, but im in the south were were armed like shit, semi-auto banana clip rifle in my dads closet with 5+ more guns of all kinds, that u can get from 6, plus a pistol and revolver, so i dont care, just try something, but on newegg, the first couple made it seem horrible, then the others made it seem good-amazing if u wanna talk on kinect or skype to make these conversations alot faster, i told u my gt and pm me if u want skype, i wouldn't do all this stuff normally like u were sort of implying i shouldn't, but uve been a great help.
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
March 22 2011 00:03 GMT
#93
and a good point 1 guy made was the disadvantadge of using 128-bit in comparison to the 2watever-bit which i'll look for in a sec., but i also dont know the difference it will actualy make and these guys were upgrading from (1 guy said) HD4850
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 22 2011 00:08 GMT
#94
Well, hardwarecanucks.com has a benchmark for that radeon card you listed, and the 9800 beat it in average on most tests (not as often on minimum) for framerate.

As for the 430 vs the 9800, you can check both of their spec sheets at nvidia.com.
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
March 22 2011 00:11 GMT
#95
yeh, the 9800 gt blow it away, as i said earlier, with 3times the texture fill rate, like 18 more cuda cores, and about tice the memory bandwidth but everything else seems lower
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 22 2011 00:17 GMT
#96
The 430 is kind of a crap offering, not really intended for gaming, so much as people who just need a little more than chipset graphics.

The 9800 was formerly a heavyweight, still performs moderately well, and happens to be, currently, the most used card of Steam owners.

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
March 22 2011 00:21 GMT
#97
k, but will i have to do anything involving this things integrated GeF 7050 north NF 620i South chipset, hadn't even thought about that
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
March 22 2011 00:26 GMT
#98
the steam thing is a good point
skyR
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada13817 Posts
March 22 2011 00:31 GMT
#99
If you're talking about your integrated graphics card (I'm assuming thats what a geforce 7050 is...) than you are going to have to disable it through the BIOS.

The southbridge is a chip on your motherboard that controls the USB, Ethernet, SATA, and everything else..

The 9800GT (formerly 8800GT) is very popular because it was the first card to bring $500 performance of the 8800 GTS to a very affordable $200 pricepoint.
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
March 22 2011 00:35 GMT
#100
oh and 1 big problem u just pointed out to me, when looking into cpu overclocking, the main tactic was to go to bios and increase some value and see what happened, crash or not, then repeat, and when attempting, i noticed that on the bootup, NO BIOS OPTION, i didn't really look at alternative ways in other than the boot buttons that are supposed to wark online, but no success, could it have to do with this being the floor model, i really doubt it, but might as well ask, great deals buying that way
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 00:38:12
March 22 2011 00:37 GMT
#101
IM ON A BOAT

(the song, hope my parents dont come in while this is on, + i love pandora, great songs)
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 00:49:34
March 22 2011 00:49 GMT
#102
awww, no more replies, cuz from what u said, this sounds like a pretty big problem, to the google
skyR
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada13817 Posts
March 22 2011 00:56 GMT
#103
You most likely won't have access to the BIOS if you are on an EMachine since these prebuilt manufacturers don't want stupid consumers to screw up their computers by messing with the voltages and bus values based on the advice of Google.
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
March 22 2011 01:00 GMT
#104
thats what i had seen, so am i screwed upgrading wise for that 9800 gt he found me, there's a link on the last page
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
March 22 2011 01:02 GMT
#105
and u'd think there'd still be a way in just not posted or something, saw a suggestion to alternatingly tap f2 and delete, i'll just mash a couple tomarrow when ima bootin and see what happens.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 22 2011 01:03 GMT
#106
OC on the GPU can be done in the OS. EVGA Precision and MSI Afterburner are the two utilities that come to mind, but I've always used precision with an actual EVGA card, so I can't guarantee cross-compatibility.
skyR
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada13817 Posts
March 22 2011 01:03 GMT
#107
I read through all your posts and no where did you mention what model your motherboard is and you didn't want to open your case to find out the wattage of your power supply. So do you actually know you can upgrade to a discrete graphics card? You need a PCI-E x16 slot for 9800GT and every other card that you listed or was recommended.

Some motherboards automatically disable the integrated graphics card when it detects a discrete graphics card in the AGP or PCI-E x16 slot. Other motherboards will require you to enter the BIOS to disable the integrated graphics card before using the discrete graphics card.
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
March 22 2011 01:06 GMT
#108
and this would be a last resort without my dad ever knowing, several people have said to reset cmos disconnecting a coin like battery and moving 2 lines with three slots around to the middle one and the unused 1 for 5sec then reconnecting the battery then boot
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
March 22 2011 01:12 GMT
#109
well my dad would be pissed if i opened it and wouldn't be able to touch this ever again. but its an emachin et1810 with pentium dual core 2.2ghz e2210 @ 2.2ghz running windows 7 64-bit and could i find the motherboard or anything else u need in the device manager (open now), under system devices
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
March 22 2011 01:14 GMT
#110
1 guy online said eMCP73VT-PM while asking about the best processor he could upgrade 2
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 01:19:28
March 22 2011 01:18 GMT
#111
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883114073

thats what im on now and the power supply is 250w so thats got to go and im on win 7 not vista but it does have both pcie, pcie x1, and pcie x16

pretty sure thats a good deal for 250, like i said b4, floor models are the way 2 go
skyR
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada13817 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 01:23:10
March 22 2011 01:21 GMT
#112
If this is what you have: http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5472004&CatId=4928

Than yes you can upgrade but the 250W power supply is cutting it extremely close. I'm 100% certain it won't have any 6pin PCIe power connectors so this will force you to use molex to PCIe power adapters which will require a total of four molex connectors (for the 9800GT). With the power supply only being 250W, I'm not sure if you will even have enough molex connectors for a 9800GT to work.

And that's a terrible deal for $250.

edit: So are you replacing your power supply too? It's a pain in the ass to replace a power supply in a prebuilt, just letting you know...
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
March 22 2011 01:23 GMT
#113
and microcenter has 350-500watt psu's for under 20, if u have an suggestions on that, angain, on a budget
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
March 22 2011 01:25 GMT
#114
shit, this is just getting more and more complicated, and i dont even know how shitty the wiring in here is, cuz my old compaq prebuilt was a fucking nightmare when i opened it up the first time.
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 01:28:02
March 22 2011 01:27 GMT
#115
well i think it was a decent deal since it ran crysis straight out of the box, not too well(not too smooth) but still it ran it.
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 01:35:00
March 22 2011 01:32 GMT
#116
http://computershopper.com/desktops/reviews/emachines-et1810-03

insides are better than my compaq's by far, again, nightmare straight from hell
and from what i see, rewiring it doesn't look too bad, iv got a good mind for that stuff, since ive just about rebuilt that compaq 5 times in my room just because with no help or experience
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
March 22 2011 01:41 GMT
#117
and i can ask my dad if he'll talk to some of his friends, he knows some that should know, and i got a friend that knows a guy that could help since he built himself a liquid cooled super gamer for a couple grand at least (dey rich ass crack heads), and he'd know what to do and hopefully help or at least give some good tips, and if u'd help, the make skype for a reason
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 02:01:05
March 22 2011 01:59 GMT
#118
and again b4 i leave, started nfs carbon withount updating or rolling back my drivers (gpu) and 1 min later, pixels diagnolly scattered (top left to bottom right,\\\\\ <---that way), and every time i restart, i have to go through the same process, or the pixels scatter, but it ONLY happens while in games, no matter what im doing other than games it hasn't happened b4

and, although i havent used it since it started happening, it has only done it in ea download manager, never in steam.
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
March 22 2011 02:09 GMT
#119
ok, yeah it also messes up on steam, at least with cs:s
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 00:19:23
March 22 2011 02:27 GMT
#120
first time that i know of this happening, but my computer just completely fucked up, this accoun basically stopped responding, but i could still go ctrl+alt+delete, and click on task manager, but it never loaded over ~10 mins

User was warned for this post

wow, no more replies u guys
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 22 2011 09:52 GMT
#121
The 4830 is a better card than the 9800GT, and for cheaper. The 4850 is around the same price, and is much better. This is something that someone who may not know much about computers or have much experience, but has had recent experience, would know, as opposed to someone who may know the world about PC's but hasn't built a PC in a month or two. This is because of how fast everything is changing in the market.

So please don't give bad advice to people and think you know everything just because you've been doing this your whole life. Everything gets outdated so quick, that the specifics of this guide will be outdated probably within 3 months. The technical information in the guide is what is important, and is what is correct.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 22 2011 11:34 GMT
#122
Really? Bad advice? Hey look, a benchy for one of the games he wants to play!

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/8299-sapphire-radeon-hd4850-512mb-graphics-card-review-16.html

You were saying?
deconduo
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Ireland4122 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 12:13:35
March 22 2011 12:12 GMT
#123
On March 22 2011 20:34 JingleHell wrote:
Really? Bad advice? Hey look, a benchy for one of the games he wants to play!

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/8299-sapphire-radeon-hd4850-512mb-graphics-card-review-16.html

You were saying?


Just so you know, there are lots of different versions of the 9800 card. It makes it a nightmare to compare them. In this case, the 9800GTX in that benchmark quite a fair bit faster than the 9800GT that Belial is talking about.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 12:26:11
March 22 2011 12:15 GMT
#124
Yes, its also a nightmare to find benchies for all those old cards. Fact: In some benchies, 9800 GT outperforms Belial's pets. In others, it doesn't. That's benchies. Kid said he wanted to OC the graphics card, so comparing to a GTX is best solution.

But at least I'm not basing 100% of graphics card stuff off of 3dmark scores.

Oh, and lets not forget his in-store requirement at a specific list of retailers. I knew I was forgetting one of the limitations on finding him something. Too early.

Wasn't Belial the one accusing enthusiasts of just throwing useless information out there, instead of actually giving advice specific to the question?
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 13:12:03
March 22 2011 13:11 GMT
#125
^ Right, but I was comparing to the 9800 GT. Why are you even posting in this thread? This is also a guide for SC2, not Crysis.

Guide edited.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 22 2011 13:27 GMT
#126
This is where the kid asked his question, probably due to his tight budget, and this is where he got his answer, appropriate to his actual question and his budget. Maybe if your guide hadn't talked about games besides SC2 to begin with, the kid wouldn't have been misled into thinking this was a place for discussion of a budget gaming PC overall...

Funny, wasn't the confusion factor one of those points of contention you kept trying to call trolling?

Aside from that, the guide is certainly a good bit less ambiguous now, although your statement of playing every game on max settings with a $400 PC on a 3 year upgrade cycle is still as misleading as it was before.
Zeke50100
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2220 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 13:37:27
March 22 2011 13:36 GMT
#127
I still support the idea of including the cost of additional, necessary items such as an Operating System (most important of them all, actually). You're not going to play anything on any setting with that build without a compliant Operating System. Generally, when people are tight on a budget, they include the cost of Windows 7 into their total cost, because it's a necessary purchase (I wouldn't assume that they use Linux and/or already have a computer built with an OS on it).
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 22 2011 13:42 GMT
#128
On March 22 2011 22:36 Zeke50100 wrote:
I still support the idea of including the cost of additional, necessary items such as an Operating System (most important of them all, actually). You're not going to play anything on any setting with that build without a compliant Operating System. Generally, when people are tight on a budget, they include the cost of Windows 7 into their total cost, because it's a necessary purchase (I wouldn't assume that they use Linux and/or already have a computer built with an OS on it).


And a display, unless you plan to visit a lot of yard sales or craigslist. They're both fairly significant portions of a limited budget.
Zeke50100
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States2220 Posts
March 22 2011 14:23 GMT
#129
On March 22 2011 22:42 JingleHell wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2011 22:36 Zeke50100 wrote:
I still support the idea of including the cost of additional, necessary items such as an Operating System (most important of them all, actually). You're not going to play anything on any setting with that build without a compliant Operating System. Generally, when people are tight on a budget, they include the cost of Windows 7 into their total cost, because it's a necessary purchase (I wouldn't assume that they use Linux and/or already have a computer built with an OS on it).


And a display, unless you plan to visit a lot of yard sales or craigslist. They're both fairly significant portions of a limited budget.


A usable monitor isn't quite as rare as a spare OS ^_^ It's still important, although I'm sure people would be fine using the monitor they already have (unless they have a laptop).

Although yes, it should also be noted. Keyboard and Mice can be found for pretty cheap prices ($20 if you don't need all of the flashy lights and whatnot), and speakers aren't too necessary (most people have some method of playing sound), so those aren't so necessary to mention.
skyR
Profile Joined July 2009
Canada13817 Posts
March 22 2011 16:34 GMT
#130
On March 22 2011 21:15 JingleHell wrote:
Yes, its also a nightmare to find benchies for all those old cards. Fact: In some benchies, 9800 GT outperforms Belial's pets. In others, it doesn't. That's benchies. Kid said he wanted to OC the graphics card, so comparing to a GTX is best solution.


It's not hard to find benches of a 3 year old card. If you were talking about finding benches for a 9600 pro or a x850 than yes it is somewhat hard.

The 4830 infact is a better card and the only reason why it gets outperformed the 9800GT in some benches is because ATI messed up and sent out cards with disabled stream processors.

An overclocked 9800GT does not perform similar to a GTX. The 9800GT is slower clocked and only has 112 stream processors as opposed to 128.
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
March 22 2011 16:46 GMT
#131
On March 23 2011 01:34 skyR wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 22 2011 21:15 JingleHell wrote:
Yes, its also a nightmare to find benchies for all those old cards. Fact: In some benchies, 9800 GT outperforms Belial's pets. In others, it doesn't. That's benchies. Kid said he wanted to OC the graphics card, so comparing to a GTX is best solution.


It's not hard to find benches of a 3 year old card. If you were talking about finding benches for a 9600 pro or a x850 than yes it is somewhat hard.

The 4830 infact is a better card and the only reason why it gets outperformed the 9800GT in some benches is because ATI messed up and sent out cards with disabled stream processors.

An overclocked 9800GT does not perform similar to a GTX. The 9800GT is slower clocked and only has 112 stream processors as opposed to 128.


Good to know. Wish this thread was you making a guide, you actually seem to have a clue.

Screwed up statements retracted. Although the availability through those specific locations still makes my suggestion his best bet.
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
March 22 2011 18:29 GMT
#132
^ the point is you don't really need a clue, but information about VRMs and which GPU is the best for the money out today is something that isn't included in most guides. I get it, you don't like the guide. Cool. You can post 20 more times in here to say it more? You and one other person who already said what he wanted to say are the only people who seem to have a problem.

There's nothing 'confusing' about what I say, I make it clear it's a SC2 computer and an SC2 computer will be able to play most games out there pretty well, especially one with a GTX 460, or even 4850.

People will read the guide, and if it so happens they are reading it through the library computer and are screwed because they are suddenly overbudget because they dont have a spare monitor and just absolutely hate linux for some reason, well they are in the same boat they always were in. The guide is complete as is, everything is pretty clear in it. There are a million other guides out there that explains all of the very, very basic stuff you seem to gripe about.
How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-22 19:46:30
March 22 2011 19:40 GMT
#133
On March 17 2011 04:12 Belial88 wrote:
My advice - buy a $400 PC today, buy a $400 PC in 3 years, be able to play everything on max settings, and still spent less than an i7 $1500 system.


Since you seem to have trouble grasping that these are STILL your exact words... That isn't a very basic complaint. If someone has a little more budget, but not the knowledge to use it, and comes to this guide, and gets the wrong impression, they might waste money.

You did kind of imply that your guide was for any person looking to build, not just people needing to balance food into the mix.
boblzer0
Profile Joined May 2010
84 Posts
March 22 2011 20:01 GMT
#134
amd is low rent
jonnyp11
Profile Joined March 2011
United States38 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 00:53:12
March 23 2011 00:50 GMT
#135
wow, i bookmarked the last page yesterday and didn't notice page 7 and was anoid by no replies even though ya'll didn't answer my last question, which is just a quick fix for my current graphics card sliding pixels diagnolly unless i update or roll it back on every start up, but it only happens when in games.

and i knew what the forum was for, but i was just looking for some descent opinions and advice since i'm a complete newb, and u put in several coments about other games in ur guide including CRYSIS 2, (D.S.)

now, back to playin some dragon age 2, one of the best games ever made
Belial88
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States5217 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-23 04:39:57
March 23 2011 04:38 GMT
#136
Since you seem to have trouble grasping that these are STILL your exact words... That isn't a very basic complaint. If someone has a little more budget, but not the knowledge to use it, and comes to this guide, and gets the wrong impression, they might waste money.

You did kind of imply that your guide was for any person looking to build, not just people needing to balance food into the mix.


Doing a $400 build today and a $400 build later when needed will save more money then getting an i7, but it's clear it's just my opinion there. You are clearly trolling, you argue about semantics this whole time and no one else cares. No one is wasting money by doing that, if anything they are saving money and being ultra practical. If someone wants to spend money a little needlessly, for whatever reason, they'd understand what they need to do and what they are getting. My guide is pointing out that if you are only playing SC2 (or most games for that matter, but not specialized for them) then this is all you need, and any more is simply headroom.

You're just going to be ignored from now on. Obviously I really care about your comments about semantics about these somehow rich yet dumb kids who will foolishly only be able to play Starcraft 2 on amazing when they really want a computer to show off, even though no where in my guide do I say "you should buy this computer to show off how rich you are", because of my guide.



How to build a $500 i7-3770K Ultimate Computer:http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=392709 ******** 100% Safe Razorless Delid Method! http://www.overclock.net/t/1376206/how-to-delid-your-ivy-bridge-cpu-with-out-a-razor-blade/0_100
mahnini
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
United States6862 Posts
March 23 2011 04:56 GMT
#137
as much as i'm sure your effort is appreciated, this guide is really all over the place and has some incorrect information. i was hoping that by keeping this open a decent discussion would appear and everyone would learn from the experience but it seems this thread has run its course.
the world's a playground. you know that when you're a kid, but somewhere along the way everyone forgets it.
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