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I mean it's bad enough that we had to deal with years of bullshit in TvP in broodwar. Now 12 years later here we are again in the same sort of clusterfuck as before. How did blizzard manage to do this? TvZ again is probably the best and most dynamic matchup/highest micro intensive while you have TvP which is a complete joke. Except now unlike broodwar, terran late game is utter garbage. Losing to 5 minute dt's in broodwar after having prepared or practiced for a match made you want to rip ur keyboard out and chuck it through the 2nd floor window. thank god DT's take longer to build now but they can still literally fuck a game over in seconds, and now with warp gates you can herp derp them in anywhere you want. but thats only one minor shitstorm to worry about now in this amazingly retardo matchup.
proxy gates in broodwar were way too strong as it was, now you have this chrono boosting crap. chrono'd Zealots build in like 10 seconds, wtf is that? You not only have to scout the proxy gates right away you have to bunker in perfect locations/micro perfectly and even then that's good enough to MAYBE hold it off or at least force his zealots to camp the outskirts of ur mineral line. glhf vs the cannons/stalkers that follow up 30 seconds later....Holy fuck proxy gates are retarded, and terran cant ever threaten with proxy raxes anymore due to depot before rax nerf. so any of the old proxy marauder cheese terran had or quick reapers was taken out. great. proxy fact/thor is stupid now cuz scv repair isn't nearly as strong with that so literally the terran allins grow smaller while protoss keeps all of their shit all day every day.
Toss literally has just as many if not more abusive completely retarded builds and ways to abuse the fuck out of maps. 3gate+VR is still some of the most overpowered shit in the game. Unless you blind counter it, scout the proxy stargate and micro rines perfectly and dont get caught in a bad spot u get completely raped by this build EVEN WITH BUNKERS. It gets way more fun on some of the most retarded maps like jungle basin or scrap station when they can just charge on rocks right outside your base and roflstomp bunkers in 3 seconds. Even if you leave scvs to repair right there they can forcefield directly on top of the bunker which prevents all repair. really? I mean I could have perfect game sense scout the proxy scout the incoming attack have scvs in place and whoop zoop ZAP ZAP sup forcefields "g fucking g." there is literally no defenders advantage in this game. all they have to do is use the void ray for spotting and they can even make a pylon on the low ground and warp zealots into your main, and shoot from below with stalkers...
4gate is a joke too. You have ridiculously bad protoss players high on the ladder or doing well in tournaments who literally use a single build the whole way while not understanding how to actually play the game. zerg players deep in tournaments are legit. they actually understand how to play the game. protoss players? ha that's a 50/50.
oh and have fucking fun in the late game too. Colossus/templars/carriers are stupid broken late game. bio gets stormed to shit, ghost/mech has to be played perfectly and even then you can't stop carriers with that so you still have to timing allin or push before then. plus with ghosts you need to have perfect emp's on templars but even then once amulet finishes they can warp in templars anywhere and have instant storms or just feedback ghosts and ghosts are so superduper expensive its literally more than twice the cost of a templar just to counter the same unit. For colossus you need to have perfect timing with viking production and even then you need like 4-6 vikings for one colossus and EVEN THEN if you dont micro vikings perfectly and fight at a perfect angle you get rofl 1a'd like no tomorrow.
It's so stupid terran cant fight head to head with a protoss in late game. You simply can't fight. This is just really silly in my opinion, why? in TvP late game half the time terran is showing up with a slingshot vs the protosses M16.
"terran has the advantage in the early game just make marauders." ok sure thing, forcefield the ramp and wait for ur immortal to finish, sup early pressure.
I mean protoss doesn't even have to do a fucking single thing they can just go a safe build like 3gate robo into expo. never move never attack and just tech up to colossus/templar and 1a 20 minutes into the game. Terran has to make all kinds of shit happen with drop play and even then have to play perfectly with advantages or it's just a steamroll of the terran army. At least in broodwar protoss couldnt just sit there and let terran macro up cuz 200/200 3/3 ball of death would roll out. Toss either had to double expo or harass or go reaver/storm drops or something ANYTHING. Now you have kid johnny the amazing 50apm protoss player literally sitting there doing nothing, builds a few colossus and templars and moves across the map and wins without doing anything. what?
it's only going to keep getting shittier as the game develops more because terran is by far the weakest late game race. TvZ isn't as bad lately, and at least there terran has room and diversity. But in TvP if terran doesnt win in under 15 minutes good luck have fun. besides 99% of the trash protosses out there aren't even utilizing good shit like phoenix harass or even know how to really play the game yet. once johnny the 50apm gosu starts realizing how to actually play things are only going to get more fun for terran users. and bigger maps are terrible for terrans too only makes early pressure that much crappier. wow whatever.
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10387 Posts
if you lost to DTs in BW, you were either too greedy or you just sucked lol
and Proxy Gates were easy to fend off for Terrans in BW TvP lols
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This is how you rage, folks. Great post!
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On January 24 2011 13:39 ArvickHero wrote:
and Proxy Gates were easy to fend off for Terrans in BW TvP lols
Destination was a nightmare 
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TvP easily my best mu at top 50 na. I dunno, I win so many games 2base vs 2base, just double drop and attack and its so hard for p to hold without losing a lot.
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i enjoyed this post. A healthy amount of rage
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You're arguing that carriers are overpowered?
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
I like rage blogs, just because it can be about any topic with any explanation. It's the art of shitting it up that makes it awesome. 5/5
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On January 24 2011 13:42 buhhy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 13:39 ArvickHero wrote:
and Proxy Gates were easy to fend off for Terrans in BW TvP lols Destination was a nightmare
Thought you just do the barracks depot thing where you move the marine up and down and a zealot never touches you.
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Australia7069 Posts
Ever heard of this dude called liquid'jinro, who stomped the "best protoss in the world" with excellent mech builds. Maybe if you stopped crying and actually tried to relearn the matchup instead of whining about not being able to do your shitty cheese rushes, you'd become a better player.
Honestly, if you're that angry about it, and its so easy for protoss, why dont you play protoss and win some competitions, just like morrow did with zerg. At the end of the day sc2 is about winning. Crying at protoss for using the tools of their race to win(aka 4 gate) is tantamount to terrans whining about carriers in BW
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NAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Brood War TvP was like freaking impossible yo
all they had to do was do the stove build and then the arbiters come and it's like insta gg!!
advice: with the right amount of rage you can win! (idra proves it)
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One day, I dream to encounter a Terran player on the ladder who actually lets the game go long, and doesn't Bunker rush/Maka rax/Hellion Drop/Cloak Banshee rush/6 rax/rine-banshee-raven me into oblivion at the 9-10 minute mark.
It cuts both ways, man. Terran has some really stupid shit they can do to toss early also.
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I feel you...+ Show Spoiler +not. hahaha Protoss is the best :p
But seriously, yeah Protoss late game can be pretty ridiculous- as illustrated in the TL Open. I don't really understand the dynamic of TvP in SC2, but it seems to be the reverse of BW. As Terran you can't let Protoss build up a 3/3 maxed army (which, by the way was complete bullshit in BW for Protoss- so yeah) and rofl stomp you. Again, not to sure on specifics- or if it's possible. As for cheese... dunno, haven't really played against it :p
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On January 24 2011 13:39 ArvickHero wrote:
if you lost to DTs in BW, you were either too greedy or you just sucked lol
and Proxy Gates were easy to fend off for Terrans in BW TvP lols
Says the person with a protoss icon. I bet you cheesed your way to C+ by proxy gating or doing DTs or blind 12 nexing in bw and pretended you were "good".
Seriously, you thought terran had a lot of options in TvZ? Doesn't even come close to P options in PvT. Late game is "hmm, what do I feel like rolling T with today?
Colo/HT, Colo/phoenix, HT/carrier, HT/Chargelot/immortal ?
I'm not saying T is unplayable, we can do a lot of gay shit midgame too, but late game is a fucking joke. Even qxc (maybe u heard of him?) says Gaydarin amulet + warpin is a joke balance-wise.
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10387 Posts
On January 24 2011 13:47 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 13:39 ArvickHero wrote:
if you lost to DTs in BW, you were either too greedy or you just sucked lol
and Proxy Gates were easy to fend off for Terrans in BW TvP lols Says the person with a protoss icon. I bet you cheesed your way to C+ by proxy gating or doing DTs or blind 12 nexing in bw and pretended you were "good". Seriously, you thought terran had a lot of options in TvZ? Doesn't even come close to P options in PvT. Late game is "hmm, what do I feel like rolling T with today? Colo/HT, Colo/phoenix, HT/carrier, HT/Chargelot/immortal ? I'm not saying T is unplayable, we can do a lot of gay shit midgame too, but late game is a fucking joke. Even qxc (maybe u heard of him?) says Gaydarin amulet + warpin is a joke balance-wise.
Can I really get to C+ using those builds :o
I don't play or really follow SC2, but idk I saw 10 Terrans and 2 Protosses for that IEM tourney so they seem to be doing well enough.
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Hey man, as bad as you think you have it, at least you don't play zerg.
Okay bad joke.
I sort of agree that the Kaydarin amulet needs to be nerfed. Do you think that would help? It's pretty unfair how good templars are at that point in the game (This is coming from a zerg's view point of course). I feel like the TvP and ZvP matchups looks pretty similar (if T goes Bio), in a lot of ways. Vikings and Curropters play the exact same role, and a Roach/Hydra Ball looks and feels very similar to an MMM ball. Storm/EMP/Fungal are all basically the exact same spell. Except storm is like twice as good.
Every race has it's cross to bear right now.
I agree with you that ZvT is a wicked fun and very intense MU in every way. Easily my favorite to play. ZvP can feel very unfair whilst ZvZ is pretty much a clusterfuck.
Yeah T is pretty fucking weak late game. You have to really drop like you mean it and have reaaaaly god macro. Like much better macro than most T's are used to.
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all i'm gonna say is forcefield is the stupidest spell ever.
what's that? i'm in the middle of no where caught out of position and getting flanked? LOL SURPRISE INSTAWALLS EVERYWHERE.
what's that? i fucked up my 1 base attack and now i'm getting chase into my main? LOL SURPRISE INSTABLOCKED MY RAMP.
what's that? my opponent scouted my one base attack and cut scvs to block and counter me? LOL SURPRISE PERMACAMP YOUR RAMP.
i mean come on they couldn't give forcefields some hp? nope insta 15 second terrain block that pushes away units. great. just great.
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On January 24 2011 13:39 ArvickHero wrote:
if you lost to DTs in BW, you were either too greedy or you just sucked lol
and Proxy Gates were easy to fend off for Terrans in BW TvP lols
Luckyfool is boss in BW.
DT's are just fuckin' jerks.
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I would argue with you, but I don't feel like arguing with you.
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my favorite part about tvp was okok im ready for that arbiter recall HERE IT COMES *EMP* and it misses and u lose.
thats fun
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rofl you act like medivacs don't exist
go watch gretorp l2p imoimo
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Happy birthday Kiante!
@OP, try mech bro, there is a reason the siege tank is the best thing since.... I don't think anything has ever been better than the siege tank. But really try to think outside the box, terrans have been turtling in BW for years, its for a reason, it works!
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Shouldn't be losing to DTs then bitching about an imbalanced match-up. Granted, I think the late-game in TvP is scary-hard against a good 'Toss, but up to mid-game you shouldn't be too over-whelmed.
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medviacs just get raped by feedback, or stalkers/zealots get warped in wherever you drop. Good tosses keep obs around or see the drop coming and have units there. If you're lucky you kill a pylon and then lose everything or have to run out. if you over commit to a big drop they just roll ur front.
mech gets destroyed by air. void rays/carriers even immortal/zealot just RAPES tanks even if terran has better upgrades. gone are the days you could pump out a round of Goliaths.
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Katowice25012 Posts
You are one whiny motherfucker.
I mean it's bad enough that we had to deal with years of bullshit in TvP in broodwar.
Yeah, tons of bullshit. Thats why 3 (or 4) bonjwas were terran and a touch under 50% of starleagues have been won by terrans.
GSL is full of bullshit too, man. Look at Code S or Code A! Protosses won nearly 30% of those PvTs!
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And here I thought you were one of the most calm and cool collected people that I know. RAGE TIEM
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On January 24 2011 14:06 heyoka wrote:You are one whiny motherfucker. Show nested quote +I mean it's bad enough that we had to deal with years of bullshit in TvP in broodwar. Yeah, tons of bullshit. Thats why 3 (or 4) bonjwas were terran and a touch under 50% of starleagues have been won by terrans.
You have medivacs and marauders. Pretty much Blizzard's gift to all Terrans.
Protoss has been nerfed in one way or another minus maybe 2 patches. Every other patch has had protoss nerfed.
If you play like Select did @ MLG dallas [ yeah that long ago ] you will rip most competent Protosses. You play at a high level in bw and sc2, I recognize that, but it is simply ridiculous the harass potential that Terrans have. One medivac full of any combination of marine/marauder REQUIRES a serious commitment by the protoss. You can drop in two locations, keep your main army in front of your nat and fend off any push the protoss can do before they hit 3 [ critical ] collosus or zealot speed.
Or you can attack his nat, drop anywhere else. Aggression is hugely rewarded for terrans right now, even if maps are small simply because medivac drops are so strong vs gateway units.
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The only real option lategame TvP, I think, is just out microing templar with ghosts, expanding as much as possible, and taking down expansions with drops and multi pronged attacks while macroing like crazy out of a dozen or more barracks with good upgrades and balancing your viking count to just barely have more than minimally necessary to kill his colossus.
Tanks are just not good in TvP except for 1 base allins, no matter how many players you see making them. They were fine before the damage vs light nerf, but now zealot/immortal just absolutely steam rolls any reasonable number of tanks, AND it's a mobile force. Not to mention air.
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On January 24 2011 14:04 LuckyFool wrote:
medviacs just get raped by feedback, or stalkers/zealots get warped in wherever you drop. Good tosses keep obs around or see the drop coming and have units there. If you're lucky you kill a pylon and then lose everything or have to run out. if you over commit to a big drop they just roll ur front.
mech gets destroyed by air. void rays/carriers even immortal/zealot just RAPES tanks even if terran has better upgrades. gone are the days you could pump out a round of Goliaths.
If your medivacs are getting raped by feedback you're a much less imaginative player than I thought
Stim your units first? Thus use up the medivac energy? Or you could even emp them if you really wanted to haha
If you warp in units where the drop is coming you're still going to lose unless you have a retarded number of warpgates. Terran units' strength is their efficiency in small numbers in comparison to protoss units which generally require a broader composition of units and a larger number to be effective. Since infantry are more effective in small numbers than protoss gateway units are, you can just drop from medivacs at multiple bases at once and protoss will be pretty much helpless to stop it.
You may not have goliaths, but you still have vikings (as well as BCs if you're super late game).
Besides, if you're positioned well with infantry to protect, immortals shouldn't be able to walk up and shoot your tanks. They should be well out of range with infantry stopping the immortals from getting too close.
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United States7481 Posts
On January 24 2011 14:06 heyoka wrote:You are one whiny motherfucker. Show nested quote +I mean it's bad enough that we had to deal with years of bullshit in TvP in broodwar. Yeah, tons of bullshit. Thats why 3 (or 4) bonjwas were terran and a touch under 50% of starleagues have been won by terrans. GSL is full of bullshit too, man. Look at Code S or Code A! Protosses won nearly 30% of those PvTs!
On the other hand, the Zotac Team Invitational is protoss 29:28 terran (pending tonight's results)
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Since infantry are more effective in small numbers than protoss gateway units are, you can just drop from medivacs at multiple bases at once and protoss will be pretty much helpless to stop it.
Until chargelots and warp-in HTs with 75 energy.
Besides, if you're positioned well with infantry to protect, immortals shouldn't be able to walk up and shoot your tanks. They should be well out of range with infantry stopping the immortals from getting too close.
If you put your infantry so far in front, they get stormed. If you put them with tanks, immortals walk up and then infantry gets stormed anyway :\
Oh and chargelots make your tanks rape your own infantry anyway. Tanks are awful.
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HA thought this would be the other way a toss player whining about TvP, what with the herp derp viking + marauder + stim and the possibilities of drops, and IMO PvZ is the most dynamic MU.
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On January 24 2011 14:25 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +Since infantry are more effective in small numbers than protoss gateway units are, you can just drop from medivacs at multiple bases at once and protoss will be pretty much helpless to stop it.
Until chargelots and warp-in HTs with 75 energy.
nope
I've played tons of PvTs where I warp in more food+money worth than the terran has in pure zealot/khaydarin HTs to defend against drops and the marauders are always the victors. Especially when they do this at 3 places at once and even using all your warpgates at just one drop isn't enough to defend against it.
Show nested quote +Besides, if you're positioned well with infantry to protect, immortals shouldn't be able to walk up and shoot your tanks. They should be well out of range with infantry stopping the immortals from getting too close. If you put your infantry so far in front, they get stormed. If you put them with tanks, immortals walk up and then infantry gets stormed anyway :\ Oh and chargelots make your tanks rape your own infantry anyway. Tanks are awful.
I guess you've never heard of kiting then, nor emp.
I also don't get why more terrans don't use more minerals on hellions instead of pumping them all into marines. A healthy balance is ideal (not advocating pure hellion), and having hellions in front would not only be better against storming tosses, it'd help deal with the zealots more effectively as well as being easier to kite with back to your tanks.
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This blog makes me sad. Brood War TvP is glorious: man's struggle to become closer to god.
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lolol... Terran is the new Protoss.
This is proof!!!
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Orb, you can't use anecdotal evidence if you are extremely bad at starcraft.
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United States2186 Posts
The broodwar tvp complaint I'm sure is just low level protoss being super easy lol. There's obviously no imbalance issues there.
A lot of people mention the horrendous gsl pvt winrate. This is almost solely due to T 1 base builds, which to a certain degree is a dice roll but it's still one that favors Terran. Terran on 2 and 3 bases still has a fighting chance due to harassment, which is very powerful and takes a lot of skill for both sides.
But once you start adding up the bases and getting later in the tech tree, T winrate drops to 0. Literally. Protoss acquires too much anti-harassment potential, namely warpin temps w/ amulet, blink stalkers phoenix, or air units in general, and simply being able to warpin a bunch of stuff at once (thankfully most are too stupid to use phoenix or get blink so harass still works for longer than it should). Terran must win via harass because they have zero chance in actual battles. The only way they can stop protoss from just a moving into them with a big ball of stuff is planetarys, not just at expansions, but at strategic locations that can't be avoided.
As sc2 1 base games are unimaginably boring and I refuse to play them, I have searched long and hard and found 4 games where T wins in lategame fights vP, out of many games searching and many games played.
Ogstop vs some ladder kor on metal. 70 minute game top transitions into mass tanks after splitting the map. Protoss never gets carriers or any air unit and just a moves ground armies into tank lines over and over (still almost wins lol). Proof a monkey can play protoss.
There probably were a few games where T snipes colossus with vikings pre-battle while P is afk, but you can't be basing your strategic plans on praying the Protoss is an idiot and just doesn't protect his colossus. That's simply victory in a worst case scenario
Painuser vs Nony/Nazgul (lt/kulas 3 games total I think) from 3rd mlg.
At last, I had found a savior. A man who could take it to protoss lategame and shove their broken units in their faces. Granted in every game the protoss made horrendous horrendous blunders while Painuser kinda sat and waited for them to screw up but still, it was a terran lategame victory.
Then a friend played painuser 3 times on ladder and raped him in lategame every time with varying combinations. Painuser lost multiple maxed armies, never winning a battle or even coming close. Once carriers were on the field, continuing to play was just a formality. Painuser even emp'ed his entire army once, pre-carrier too, but it didn't matter lol. Hope shattered.
My own experience mirrors this as well. All tvp's that are not won defending allins are won by harass. 0 lategame victories or games where I try to with minimal harass and just by fighting big battles, including many games where I lose half a dozen 200/200 fights by ridiculous margins. Every conceivable unit combination has been tried: doesn't matter if P has any idea whats coming or, survives long enough to make carriers. Literally, 0/20ish.
Terran does a great job at delaying the inevitable via their strong buildings that prevent P from always exploiting T losing a battle, but it doesn't really matter whether you have the chance to lose 1 200/200 battle or 5. In one particularly memorable game, we split metal and fought repeated maxed fights. In the end, I was mined out completely, while he had 13k/4k total! Now that is cost efficient.
Jinro's games vs MC and in the machima clanwars look fancy but mech is heavily positionally dependent, and again, relies the Protoss player being a monkey. If Protoss treats v Mech like v Bio and stays cautious and expands slowly, yes they have trouble. But if they just expand over and over and protect from hellion harassment (much easier to block than bio cause it can only kill zeals and workers), mech can't do a thing to prevent it and will eventually wither and die to anything from air units, infinite supply of ground armies, or P harass. Jinro/Axslav is a good example of this. Mech is something that will work okay for awhile if Protoss reacts badly, but it is doomed in the long run.
TvP still has a semblance of balance, for who knows what side, because of Terran early game dumb builds. But it is the stupidest balance possible:
T has a variety of solid allins early game that if the Protoss rolls the dice wrong.
Midgame is interesting with harass potential but that ends very quickly. T has to balance their harass on a razors edge to keep the P pinned with threats while not taking many casualties, as otherwise they can just die to P 1a'ing into their nat. Also if Terran can gain a nice economic lead, they can trade armies repeatedly and just attrition the Protoss to death (until templars get on the field or P gets too many bases to matter, namely more than 3).
Lategame is protoss autowin.
It may or may not be "imbalanced" but it is unarguably stupid and incredibly poorly designed. Both T early game and P lategame need to be completely redesigned yet I highly doubt Blizzard will focus on anything more than superficial changes.
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i like how this thread turned all serious and made me look like an ass
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Well, I think this is a fairly justified rage blog luckyfool  i'll help ya out with some rage 
For people not high up on the ladder, or that just watch random games/replays, you have not seen the ridiculous bullshit on ladder in tvp. Literally any build you do in TvP, protoss has either a unit advantage, or economic advantage, where if you do not defend their bullshit, you lose the game, but if you do, they are still very much in the game with their expansion now up lol.
And like lucky raged bout, if you try aggression, they lol-field their ramp, and stop it and are ahead. Anytime protoss goes collosus, you absolutely have to always have 4-20 vikings, depending on their collosus numbers.
If you mis judge viking/marine/marauder ratio to his collosus/gateway/zealot/stalker numbers, you lose the game from not being able to stop collosus. Also, drops are a joke. Vs mediocre protoss, you will be able to tug them left and right with drops yes...but versus the higher up protoss, they simply will turtle and expand again. You invested into drops -> they do zero and protoss is still ahead now with collosus building up or switch to templar.
If you do not scout the timing on their templar you automatically lose the game from having no pre-emptive ghosts, which you must also perfectly EMP onto templar or you also lose ur entire bio army to the collosous + templars.s
Oh, and like luckyfool said, you can be a 30 apm noob and if you know the 4gate build order you can still win tournaments vs superior players - you can even win TLopens and lots of beta tournaments when everyone are noobies at the game *cough*
Also, a lot of the forum warriors have not seen the pure turtle templar/carrier style that some P sometimes do on ladder, with mass cannons. It sounds like a "lol that will never work" theorycraft, but there's a bunch of top protoss players that literally do that shit - cannon until they have khadayrin an then go carriers.
TvZ is even easier than TvP now imo. I'm not *whining* i'm just providing some anecdotal evidence to support luckyfool's rage - it's pretty justified. And also frustrating when you see certain players 4gate their way to sponsorships...
lol.
And on top of all this, scouting is insanely difficult to do in SC2. Lots of games can be coinflippy =/ ofc Zergs have more of a right to rage than we do as Terrans tho lol.
imo lucky, for tvp now, you have to literally build 3-5 bunkers at your natural to be safe - if you're doing some FE that is. Just play extremely safe on ladder, and build more bunkers than you need at your natural so shitty players don't just rush in and bust you.
And even then, yeah, the actual good protosses have an economic advantage and army advantage because you have to build the bunkers...but that's just the way the game is right now lol.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On January 24 2011 14:55 Ver wrote:The broodwar tvp complaint I'm sure is just low level protoss being super easy lol. There's obviously no imbalance issues there. A lot of people mention the horrendous gsl pvt winrate. This is almost solely due to T 1 base builds, which to a certain degree is a dice roll but it's still one that favors Terran. Terran on 2 and 3 bases still has a fighting chance due to harassment, which is very powerful and takes a lot of skill for both sides. But once you start adding up the bases and getting later in the tech tree, T winrate drops to 0. Literally. Protoss acquires too much anti-harassment potential, namely warpin temps w/ amulet, blink stalkers phoenix, or air units in general, and simply being able to warpin a bunch of stuff at once (thankfully most are too stupid to use phoenix or get blink so harass still works for longer than it should). Terran must win via harass because they have zero chance in actual battles. The only way they can stop protoss from just a moving into them with a big ball of stuff is planetarys, not just at expansions, but at strategic locations that can't be avoided. As sc2 1 base games are unimaginably boring and I refuse to play them, I have searched long and hard and found 4 games where T wins in lategame fights vP, out of many games searching and many games played. Ogstop vs some ladder kor on metal. 70 minute game top transitions into mass tanks after splitting the map. Protoss never gets carriers or any air unit and just a moves ground armies into tank lines over and over (still almost wins lol). Proof a monkey can play protoss. There probably were a few games where T snipes colossus with vikings pre-battle while P is afk, but you can't be basing your strategic plans on praying the Protoss is an idiot and just doesn't protect his colossus. That's simply victory in a worst case scenario Painuser vs Nony/Nazgul (lt/kulas 3 games total I think) from 3rd mlg. At last, I had found a savior. A man who could take it to protoss lategame and shove their broken units in their faces. Granted in every game the protoss made horrendous horrendous blunders while Painuser kinda sat and waited for them to screw up but still, it was a terran lategame victory. Then a friend played painuser 3 times on ladder and raped him in lategame every time with varying combinations. Painuser lost multiple maxed armies, never winning a battle or even coming close. Once carriers were on the field, continuing to play was just a formality. Painuser even emp'ed his entire army once, pre-carrier too, but it didn't matter lol. Hope shattered. My own experience mirrors this as well. All tvp's that are not won defending allins are won by harass. 0 lategame victories or games where I try to with minimal harass and just by fighting big battles, including many games where I lose half a dozen 200/200 fights by ridiculous margins. Every conceivable unit combination has been tried: doesn't matter if P has any idea whats coming or, survives long enough to make carriers. Literally, 0/20ish. Terran does a great job at delaying the inevitable via their strong buildings that prevent P from always exploiting T losing a battle, but it doesn't really matter whether you have the chance to lose 1 200/200 battle or 5. In one particularly memorable game, we split metal and fought repeated maxed fights. In the end, I was mined out completely, while he had 13k/4k total! Now that is cost efficient. Jinro's games vs MC and in the machima clanwars look fancy but mech is heavily positionally dependent, and again, relies the Protoss player being a monkey. If Protoss treats v Mech like v Bio and stays cautious and expands slowly, yes they have trouble. But if they just expand over and over and protect from hellion harassment (much easier to block than bio cause it can only kill zeals and workers), mech can't do a thing to prevent it and will eventually wither and die to anything from air units, infinite supply of ground armies, or P harass. Jinro/Axslav is a good example of this. Mech is something that will work okay for awhile if Protoss reacts badly, but it is doomed in the long run. TvP still has a semblance of balance, for who knows what side, because of Terran early game dumb builds. But it is the stupidest balance possible: T has a variety of solid allins early game that if the Protoss rolls the dice wrong. Midgame is interesting with harass potential but that ends very quickly. T has to balance their harass on a razors edge to keep the P pinned with threats while not taking many casualties, as otherwise they can just die to P 1a'ing into their nat. Also if Terran can gain a nice economic lead, they can trade armies repeatedly and just attrition the Protoss to death (until templars get on the field or P gets too many bases to matter, namely more than 3). Lategame is protoss autowin. It may or may not be "imbalanced" but it is unarguably stupid and incredibly poorly designed. Both T early game and P lategame need to be completely redesigned yet I highly doubt Blizzard will focus on anything more than superficial changes.
It's good that you mention carriers too, because lots of forum warriors think carriers are bad, when they're probably the strongest unit in the game.
tbh, the best protoss players on ladder are the ones that know how to do all of their abusive strats - 4 gate, 3warpgate void, mass phoenix into mass collosus, dts, khadayrin turtle into carriers. The best protoss know how to do those + turtle hardcore.
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Wait wait, so if a Protoss player plays perfectly then he's really really hard to beat? Wow, so crazy.
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On January 24 2011 15:08 Zim23 wrote:
Wait wait, so if a Protoss player plays perfectly then he's really really hard to beat? Wow, so crazy.
No, what luckyfool is correctly pointing out is that if the Protoss player players perfectly, and the Terran player also plays perfectly - the protoss wins.
That's the point. No matter what you do as T, protoss gets an advantage for nothing. You defend their all-in -> they get an expo. You defend their 3warpgate void -> they have map control + can still kill you + ur expo is late.
They 4 gate -> you defend, then you are IN THE GAME on EVEN terms LOFL. You don't defend, THEY WIN.
It's a joke match-up.
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On January 24 2011 15:08 Zim23 wrote:
Wait wait, so if a Protoss player plays perfectly then he's really really hard to beat? Wow, so crazy.
why is that crazy.
terrans literally are flying around with dropships "hoping" for an opening somewhere. or doing a 1base "hoping" it's going to work. if you don't find that opening you're done, you can't fight head to head mid/late at all, ever. you aren't rewarded at all for a more macro defensive game management style.
honestly I'm probably playing the wrong race in sc2.
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Honestly look at zvp its more of a joke IMO. Forcefield has got to be the most retarded spell ever created so lame when they forcefield your whole army away while sniping bases. I think its forcefield that makes protoss so strong and very hard to beat if it wasn't such a strong spell don't think tvp/zvp would be as big of a problem as it is now but I completely can understand the rage thats what I have been doing past 2 weeks :D
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On January 24 2011 15:12 blade55555 wrote:
Honestly look at zvp its more of a joke IMO. Forcefield has got to be the most retarded spell ever created so lame when they forcefield your whole army away while sniping bases -_-
It's a tier1 stasis field.  @ blizzard
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Blizzard did a good job turning a beautiful matchup from bw into a coin flip lottery.
That blizz quote from sometime early in beta where they basically said they didn't want tanks to be the backbone of terran drains my soul... what do we get instead, yes marauders. Fun times.
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EPT
