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Active: 773 users

Spine Crawlers feel weaker than other static def?

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GQz
Profile Joined September 2010
Australia168 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-04 20:46:46
January 04 2011 20:43 GMT
#1
A note to the admins: First topic, rather new. Move to strategy if you feel it deserves it.

So I've always kind of felt this, but I was wondering if anybody else feels the same way...

When you play starcraft and engage in a battle, there are usually two (or three) reasons you attempt to fight. 1. You think you can win the battle and gain an advantage over your opponent - or 2. You have no other choice but to fight (or 3. You are stupid/inexperienced/overconfident/retarded etc.). For the sake of this post I will only be talking about situations regarding the first reason.

I'm not sure if this is how other people do it (but I'll assume so anyway) but when I play, I have an idea of positioning, but more importantly, how effective each unit is (their DPS, their HP, effectiveness of composition vs opponent's army, number of units you have, etc.) And you just have an overall gut 'feeling' that your army is stronger than theirs, and you pray that you are right. Most of the time, you are.

For some reason or other, the spine crawler always 'feels' weak. I'm not talking stats or anything yet, but having used ample amounts of static defence of all 3 races, I feel as if spine crawlers are the weakest of all the towers. Here are my reasons:

1. Spine crawlers attack the slowest of all the static defenses:
You may say "A terran bunker has no attack" or "but they have the highest damage". Yes, but that is beside the point. Spine crawlers are generally the most useful for holding off early-mid game rushes. Anything after that and they become fairly useless. Spine crawlers have by far the slowest attack of all 3 static defenses. Why does that matter? Because you are wasting damage if the spine crawler's attack goes over the unit's hp. The stronger the attack, the more damage that is wasted.

For Example: + Show Spoiler +
Consider a marine on 40 hp as part of a large group of marines (perhaps it has been damaged by a drone, whatever). Both a spine crawler and a photon canon require 2 hits to kill it. However, the spine crawler will take 1.5x the time it takes for the spine crawler, due to its attack being slower. It does a total of 50 damage to the marine, but the extra 10 damage is wasted because the marine is dead. In this sense, for an early-mid game situation, a faster, weaker attack is preferred over a slower, stronger attack.


Leading on from 1...
2. Spine Crawlers have the least dps of all static ground defenses.
If we compare terran bunkers, protoss canons and zerg spine crawlers statistically, it becomes apparent.
+ Show Spoiler +

Bunkers - cost 100 (+ 4 marines = 300)
DPS - 6/0.215 seconds or about 28-29 dps
HP - 400 (+marines 45 each = 580, but for the sake of this thread, we will consider the bunker only)
Range - 6 (7 using marauders, again, for the sake of the thread, using marines as an example)
Armor - 1
Build Time - 35 seconds
Advantages - Salvagable for 100% return. Can be upgraded with terran building armor/neosteel frame. Damage upgrades as infantry weapons are upgraded. Repairable. Using marines, can hit air. Marines can stim while inside bunker.
Disadvantages - Range slightly smaller than that of other races using only marines. Requires marines to be effective, furthering the cost of the bunker, though marines do not die when the bunker dies, and the bunker may be salvaged and marines reincluded in the army.

Photon Canons - cost 150
DPS - 20/1.2 seconds or about 16.67/second
HP - 150hp/150shield
Range - 7
Armor - 1, shield armor 0
Build Time - 40 seconds
Advantages - Is a detector, hits air. Shield regenerates. Shield armor upgradable (though not recommended). Does not require worker's presence once it begins to warp in.
Disadvantages - Rather expensive for its dps (from a pure dps point of view, 2 canons is less than 3 zealots in terms of dps). Reqiures a forge (other races require only their starting unit-producing structures like barracks and spawning pool).

Spine Crawlers - Cost 100 + 50 = 150 (Drone cost)
DPS - 25 (+5 to armored)/1.85 seconds or about 13.514 (+2.7)/second
HP - 300
Range - 7
Armor - 2
Build Time - 50 seconds
Advantages - Can uproot and reposition if necessary (although the re-root time rather significant and can usually only be done out of battle). Regenerates hp (minimal rate, 0.27hp/sec). Can be Transfused for increased effectiveness.
Disadvantages - Kills the initial drone. Relies on creep (Dies rather rapidly whilst burrowed off-creep. Can only burrow (re-root) on creep. Very slow off-creep.)


My very brief rant: + Show Spoiler +

"But Bunkers aren't imbalanced" the Terrans will cry. Yes they are, compared to spine crawlers. Come down to earth and play with the rest of us instead of sitting on your pedestal of comfort. Try the other races and then speak. Kthx. BTW I'm a random player, so less hatin. I just like the idea that as zerg, you should be able to make drones/units to fit the situation and that a perfectly played game as zerg should win every time -_-


So from the stats, we see that not only do spine crawlers have the highest cooldown on their attack, but also the lowest dps of the three.

3. Spine crawlers take the longest time to get up
To be completely honest, 50 seconds sounds ridiculous. It's almost as much as a barracks, and it's nowhere near enough time to build after seeing an opponent's army move out. Seems like spines have to be pre-emptive, which is just another word for 'guessing game'.

What I think will fix this, though this is just an opinion and I realise that as a low diamond player it won't really be respected so I'm spoilering it -.- + Show Spoiler +
increase spine crawler range to 8. Spines are already confined by creep so it makes sense that they have more range to increase their effectiveness. Would also help zerg stop canon rushes and etc, which would encourage use.
Joroth
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States318 Posts
January 04 2011 20:47 GMT
#2
It's cause you may not see it offen but 2 base hydra/spine timing atks are amazingly good if used properly. If buffed they would just the game another all in strat. Anyone he cares about the game doesn't want this.
"you have buildings that are better than my race go fuck yourself" -IdrA
Shadrak
Profile Joined August 2010
United States490 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-04 20:49:29
January 04 2011 20:48 GMT
#3
I'm not sure I'm down with the idea of increase the actual fighting effectiveness of crawlers, but decreasing their build time down to that of a photon cannon (40 from 50) seems quite reasonable. Their actual fighting effectiveness has always seemed ok to me, considering they can be repositioned as the front lines change.

<edit> but this would probably create issues with spine rushes in ZvZ so I'm not sure how to balance that.
sCuMBaG
Profile Joined August 2006
United Kingdom1144 Posts
January 04 2011 20:50 GMT
#4
i would make another suggestion to make the spinecrawler more effective:


bring back the old SC:BW defense mechanic. first you build a creepcolony (at the cost of 50-75 + 50 for morphing) and from there chose which structure to morph (spine/spore). make the creepcolony 25sec and morphing 25 sec.
Dfgj
Profile Joined May 2008
Singapore5922 Posts
January 04 2011 20:50 GMT
#5
This isn't the best way to look at things because the races aren't necessarily supposed to have statistically comparable options. One race's defense may be stronger/weaker or whatever - it's the same when comparing one unit against another. That doesn't indicate a balance problem without a lot of context.
Tenks
Profile Joined April 2010
United States3104 Posts
January 04 2011 20:51 GMT
#6
On January 05 2011 05:48 Shadrak wrote:
I'm not sure I'm down with the idea of increase the actual fighting effectiveness of crawlers, but decreasing their build time down to that of a photon cannon (40 from 50) seems quite reasonable. Their actual fighting effectiveness has always seemed ok to me, considering they can be repositioned as the front lines change.

<edit> but this would probably create issues with spine rushes in ZvZ so I'm not sure how to balance that.



I'm pretty sure back in beta they justified the Spine Crawler build time increase for the exact ZvZ reason
Wat
Powster
Profile Joined April 2010
United States650 Posts
January 04 2011 20:52 GMT
#7
Being able to move is what makes spine crawlers so good..
SnowSC2
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States678 Posts
January 04 2011 20:53 GMT
#8
im fine with the damage as mid game i dont rely on them for defense so much but rather to support my army, and early game theyre fine for fending of little pushes or hellions and such, and late game as zerg you can drop a ton of them and help defend with new expos while also freeing up supply

Theyre also only 100 minerals. cannons are 150, and bunkers are cheap but require additional units.
Faze.
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada285 Posts
January 04 2011 20:53 GMT
#9
I think reducing the re-root time would be the best thing to do, I always feel unsafe when I uproot spine crawlers just to put them in a better spot, I just know that if I get attacked right after I start the re-root, I'm in trouble cuz it's takes forever...
D:
Shadrak
Profile Joined August 2010
United States490 Posts
January 04 2011 20:55 GMT
#10
On January 05 2011 05:53 Reptaur wrote:

Theyre also only 100 minerals. cannons are 150, and bunkers are cheap but require additional units.


They are really 150 because first you have to make a drone (50) and then morph that drone into a crawler.
GHOSTCLAW
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States17042 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-01-04 20:57:03
January 04 2011 20:55 GMT
#11
balance thread. I like the fact that there are numbers, but it's not enough to justify the thread.

The whole point of starcraft is that it's an asymetric game, and it doesn't appear that you need to either buff or nerf any of the static tools used for any of the races. The evidence necessary for a balance discussion OP is much much higher than any other type of thread. Also, it should go into strategy imo.
PhotographerLiquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help.
Robinsa
Profile Joined May 2009
Japan1333 Posts
January 04 2011 20:56 GMT
#12
On January 05 2011 05:53 Faze. wrote:
I think reducing the re-root time would be the best thing to do, I always feel unsafe when I uproot spine crawlers just to put them in a better spot, I just know that if I get attacked right after I start the re-root, I'm in trouble cuz it's takes forever...

Its the same for any other race when they put down their static defence - except they can tme it if they want to ..
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