EPTNo need for unit changes, buffs/nerfs.
[D] Why is protoss doing so bad in the GSL? - Page 104
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QuantumTheory
New Zealand188 Posts
No need for unit changes, buffs/nerfs. | ||
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Widar
Sweden261 Posts
Seriously guys. | ||
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ZerOfy
United Kingdom405 Posts
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Magikoopa
United States5 Posts
As a protoss player i love the idea of these but in practice they are simply too efficient so the only way to balance them is to either nerf them to the point where they are no longer used (not a real option) or decrease the efficiency of other related units so the final army composition is not overpowered. While i understand that it is very hard to compare units across races because cost is not 100% accurate and timing is an issue, all of us who have played the game seriously can clearly see certain "imbalances". One of the easiest to grasp is gateway units vs barracks units since it appears so early that the impact of racial macro mechanics is minimized. For cost, gateway units are relatively terrible, so many protoss beg the questions... "Why cant we just even the playing field? Why doesn't the stalker fight evenly with the marauder when it costs more? If you can make a bio ball as a late game tactic, why can't I?" The answer to all of these questions goes back to those "too efficient" protoss features. Blizzard cant make gateway units independently competitive for cost because then warpgates would roll people over. Blizzard cant let the base of the army be competitive because colossus or HT would be game endingly powerful. Basically, for those who dont want to read my post, Blizzard can't spread the power of the race across all of its units because HT, colossus and warpgates are such powerful concepts they can't be brought down to the level of other protoss features. They will either be useless or overpowered until they are completely reworked. And until that day, all protoss must either do some gimmicky all-in "cheese" (hidden strat) or go directly for warpgate/collo or warpgate/HT. This limitation is why i believe protoss will never reach an equilibrium of equal representation at very high end play. | ||
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unkkz
Norway2196 Posts
Out of his last 25 Scrap games hes lost 19. Small smaple i know but, it atleast adds some stats to the fact that scrap is a bad toss map, and it might've had screwed alot of protoss players over in GSL, Incontrol for one. | ||
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Widar
Sweden261 Posts
Observers should come from something that makes units. | ||
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Gak2
Canada418 Posts
i mean seriously the bw sound >>>> sc2 sound. same can be said about zerglings. | ||
Firebolt145
Lalalaland34486 Posts
On November 17 2010 06:51 Furios wrote: one change protoss seriously need is the sound zealots make when they hit something. i mean seriously the bw sound >>>> sc2 sound. same can be said about zerglings. I remember a Day9 daily where he mentioned that zealots in SC2 spank their opponent, which is actually true. I'm pretty sure stabbing someone with a knife is worse than hitting them with the side of it. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
On November 17 2010 06:46 CaptainFwiffo wrote: There's a lot of early pushes that can only be just survived with a forcefield. If you had to research it, it would be too easy to die early. Depends on what you're doing. I've been delaying my first sentry hilariously long nowadays and survive just with having more units, unless I'm against terran, then I get it and don't FF anyway since I need to save up energy for Guardian Shield. Hallucinations can block a ramp just as easily. They just have HP and so can be killed. If you're getting 5 sentries to perma-forcefield your ramp, a 100/100 upgrade won't change your build. Obviously, the energy cost on hallucination would have to be lowered. | ||
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GoldenH
1115 Posts
On November 17 2010 06:46 QuantumTheory wrote: Have observers be built from the nexus once a tech path (i.e Stargate) is chosen. No need for unit changes, buffs/nerfs. -3 probes each time I want an observer? nerf. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On November 17 2010 06:38 JJEOS wrote: You honestly think the game is so unbalanced that the likes of Tester & SangHo can't qualify? You people are retarded. Yes. We honestly think the game is so imbalanced at the pro level that the likes of Tester can't and failed to qualify two times in a row. Once is a fluke, twice - something is up. Go the the GSL S3 day 2 qualifiers thread and you'll see that Tester didn't just lose or get beat by some top-tier, known player. He got beat by completely unknown, not top-tier players who will probably crap out of the tournament in the Ro64 or Ro32 at the most. It's funny how people first say that the Korean Protoss are playing with the wrong mentality or whatnot and when the foreigners come with their oh-so-different strategies and playstyles they'll show 'em what's up. Now that more foreign Protoss have come to qualify and fail, those same people change their argument to "they just suck." Just look at the history of patches in beta and post-release. Protoss has consistently received nerf after nerf after nerf. The only real buff we've ever had was stalker buff and phoenix buff; but those two units are still rather underwhelming in comparison to other race's core and air units. They really only shine in very specific situations (pure muta v. phoenix) or in specific timings (blink stalker attacks). The only real timings that Protoss can really take advantage of and/or is in their favor is 4gate attacks but only if the opponent doesn't scout defend against it properly, which is pretty easy to do, and late game with warp-in storms and 2-3+ bases. Every other time during a match, Protoss has a pretty hard time coping. | ||
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CaptainFwiffo
United States576 Posts
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eckm
United States72 Posts
On November 17 2010 06:50 Widar wrote: Wouldn't make sence really, its no for building, its for upgrading. Observers should come from something that makes units. If the observer were produced from the cyber core, the cyber core would be something that makes units. | ||
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junemermaid
United States981 Posts
On November 17 2010 07:09 CaptainFwiffo wrote: Cut the cost and build time of observers but keep them at the robo bay. It'll make it worthwhile to get a bunch of observers for map control and make it less of a detour to get a robo bay for detection but not really going robo tech. observers give you vision of the map, but not map control. its hard to have map control with a bunch of units with 2.25 movement speed. only way protoss ets map control is with phoenix & blink stalkers. | ||
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CaptainFwiffo
United States576 Posts
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ROOTdrewbie
Canada1392 Posts
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Shockk
Germany2269 Posts
Just being Tester doesn't guarantee qualification. Even the best may "only" average ~70% win percentage on ladder, and with a streak of bad luck run into multiple players capable of beating them at such a huge tournament. There may be issues with protoss, but Tester not qualifying is not further proof of potential imbalances, it's just bad luck. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
Just look at the history of patches in beta and post-release. Protoss has consistently received nerf after nerf after nerf. The only real buff we've ever had was stalker buff and phoenix buff; but those two units are still rather underwhelming in comparison to other race's core and air units. They really only shine in very specific situations (pure muta v. phoenix) or in specific timings (blink stalker attacks). The only real timings that Protoss can really take advantage of and/or is in their favor is 4gate attacks if the opponent doesn't scout defend against it properly, which is pretty easy to do, and late game with warp-in storms and 2-3+ bases. Every other time during a match, Protoss has a pretty hard time coping. The fact of protoss being nerfed in every patch has nothing to do with protoss being underpowered or overpowered right now. Bringing this up only makes you sound like a whiney "Buff my race!!!" person like you find on the Bnet Forums. Honestly, not qualifying two times is not a streak. And really, I had no idea that Phoenixes were only good at fighting mutas. I could have sworn they could do other things as well... /sarcasm There may be legitimate reasons why protoss is underpowered, so why is everyone giving such vague (or weird) answers here? Can anyone say why, specifically, they think protoss is underpowered? | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
People have been saying this since GSL 1, and I honestly think anyone still saying such things at this point are obviously non-Protoss players who want easy wins for as long as possible by throwing up a thin veil of phony balance caution. 1. How long should we have to wait? Another GSL has passed, and the third is about to start, with Protoss looking weaker than ever. At what point will you actually go, "Ok, I guess Protoss really does have some big problems, and they need a buff"? GSL 4? 5? 6? You can keep up with the "Game is young" excuse for an arbitrarily long time, since it's so relative and ambiguous as to what point a game is no longer "young". 2. This one is just insulting to pro Protoss players everywhere. You think you know their race better than they do? You think they haven't tried different things? They're not stubborn idiots going Gateway/Robo every game and then QQ-ing about Protoss UP. I'd like to think that they'd be good enough to practice a ton and experiment with their race, and it's clearly not producing anything fruitful. 3. Well, it's been 2 GSL performances so far, and a third is just beginning, with a mere 12 Protoss players out of 64. A tiny sample pool, yes, but it's a pool of easily the very BEST players in the world. I think at this point that means something. 4. Yeah, Genius won Blizzcon. Who else was a finalist in Blizzcon? Loner. Who didn't even qualify for this GSL. Who lost in the Round of 8? Genius, the Blizzcon champion. Who was eliminated in R32 in GSL 1 and R16 in GSL 2? IdrA, who easily wins plenty of NA tournaments. Who was a former MLG champion who didn't even qualify for GSL 3? HuK, that's who. The GSL is clearly THE tournament to look at if you want to see players of the utmost highest caliber play against each other, and I believe the consistently weak performances of Protoss do indicate problems at the very top level - if you don't think the game should be balanced around the tip-top level, then you clearly have no idea about the actual concept of game balance. | ||
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JJEOS
United States127 Posts
On November 17 2010 07:06 Ryuu314 wrote: Yes. We honestly think the game is so imbalanced at the pro level that the likes of Tester can't and failed to qualify two times in a row. Once is a fluke, twice - something is up. Go the the GSL S3 day 2 qualifiers thread and you'll see that Tester didn't just lose or get beat by some top-tier, known player. He got beat by completely unknown, not top-tier players who will probably crap out of the tournament in the Ro64 or Ro32 at the most. It's funny how people first say that the Korean Protoss are playing with the wrong mentality or whatnot and when the foreigners come with their oh-so-different strategies and playstyles they'll show 'em what's up. Now that more foreign Protoss have come to qualify and fail, those same people change their argument to "they just suck." Just look at the history of patches in beta and post-release. Protoss has consistently received nerf after nerf after nerf. The only real buff we've ever had was stalker buff and phoenix buff; but those two units are still rather underwhelming in comparison to other race's core and air units. They really only shine in very specific situations (pure muta v. phoenix) or in specific timings (blink stalker attacks). The only real timings that Protoss can really take advantage of and/or is in their favor is 4gate attacks but only if the opponent doesn't scout defend against it properly, which is pretty easy to do, and late game with warp-in storms and 2-3+ bases. Every other time during a match, Protoss has a pretty hard time coping. In GSL2 Quals, Flint said he had studied the top players to beat them. Tester happened to be one of them, that's not imbalance that is Flint being a smart player. I wouldn't call that a fluke. This will keep happening. None of you were at GSL3 qualifiers, I'm sure this is a a regular thing. | ||
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