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Hello teamliquid! After losing 12 times to zerg today and winning all my other matchups I decided to make a thread. I'm a 900 diamond terran (today I dropped to 850 because of zerg) and I am having HUGE problems against zerg.
Let me first explain the situation:
1) Before zergs found out about the muta spread (see about it here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145936) I could go tanks, helions and thors. This was enough to fight muta baneling speedling and some other combinations. It wasn't easy but I had a chance tough.
2) After zergs found out about the muta spread, my thors do no splashdamage anymore so I need to add rines with stim and shields. More rines means less minerals so less helions and less tanks. I always move out when the zerg takes his third because we all know that a zerg on 3 base is horror.
I move out, spreading tanks, sieging and unsieging towards his third and macro'ing like crazy. Then there are 2 scenarios:
1) zerg has 5 ultras (seriously, on 3 bases...) and alot of speedlings and some mutas.
2) zerg has a lot of mutas, speedlings and banelings. Some zergs got even roaches.
Especially scenario 2 is hell. The zerg flanks me with: first speedlings (imagine ALOT of speedlings coming from everywhere) and banelings. If I have a lot of rines then my tank count is low and so banelings just rip my rines into pieces. I try to micro my rines but it's almost impossible. Somehow the zerg always manages to take down my rines and then it's muta party. If he doesn't take out my rines? Np, then he took out my tanks while I was running for his banelings.
I tried:
- pure thor + some rines and helions --> neutral parasite owned me.
- tanks, 2 thors, helions and some rines --> zerg just overran me. Somethimes a low count of rines survive but that's not enough against the muta force.
I know that I have to micro vs banelings but when speedlings as fast as light are coming from everywhere, I am blocked most of the time so the banelings have a free roll.
My build:
rax, fact, 21 CC, 3 facts, 1 rax and then pump rines, 2 thors and tanks + some helions (not that many because of the rine count...).
When zerg goes muta's, then I need to build turrets. No problem. But when I move out, zergs tend to take out those turrets very fast (20+ muta's just destroy turrets) and then my scv's are very vulnarable. By the time I'm at his third, he retreats and he will be just in time to fight my forces.
I see people complaining about terran being imbalanced. I seriously don't have that feeling as a terran. I was shocked by the answers from zergs when I asked them what to do. Five zergs answered (no joke, seriously): "go 5 rax reaper, that's your only option". I don't go 5 rax reaper because it feels like cheating to me. Some zergs answered "harass me more". I wonder with what I can harass? Against good zergs a fast helion rush does not work. They will always cover their ramp with queens / roaches. Banshees feel very weak for me against a zerg. Whet else can I do?
After reading the upcoming patchnotes I just feel bad. My tanks will be even weaker so terrans will have to go more bio. Fungal growth + banelings and your whole force is gone in some seconds.
Can someone help me?
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Something I want to add: maps like scrap station and xel naga caverns are making the problem worse.
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You could attempt harassing instead of just sitting in your base until the zerg is on 3 bases... Mutas isn't exactly the quickest unit to tech to, put some early pressure on with hellions.
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On August 28 2010 04:58 IFA wrote:
You could attempt harassing instead of just sitting in your base until the zerg is on 3 bases... Mutas isn't exactly the quickest unit to tech to, put some early pressure on with hellions.
Like I said in my post: against good zergs a fast helion rush does not work. They will always cover their ramp with queens / roaches. On lower ranks it works like a charm, but a good zerg will always have roaches to block his ramp, always.
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You need to harass him more, the reason people are saying T is so powerful vs zerg is that they can get a huge econ lead by doing the mass of harass that they have available to them in the early game.
in response to your saying that good zergs stop the harass, this is only if you fail to keep the pressure on. He blocks his ramp, deny him his nat, suddenly you win...
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You don't want to 5 rax reaper because it feels like cheating? Not sure what to say to that...The game is going to be evolving for years and it seems like it makes sense to use a strategy that seems to have great success at this moment. As you have stated, zergs have adapted to better play against your current strategy, so why not adapt like many other top Terrans have? This game is so early that you pretty much need to be prepared to always be working with different builds. "Standard" will not be around for quite some time, I'd guess. You can always tell yourself "this build won't be viable for long" but that will always be true and I don't see a point in avoiding builds that you think won't be viable in the future just to practice some other build that also probably won't be viable in the future. I say work on whatever build is currently the best option to get consistant wins.
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On August 28 2010 04:58 IFA wrote:
You could attempt harassing instead of just sitting in your base until the zerg is on 3 bases... Mutas isn't exactly the quickest unit to tech to, put some early pressure on with hellions.
exactly ... hellions hellions hellions ... if he stays on speedling, make more hellions with flame upgrade and stick to them => kill him ... harrass harrass harras with hellions, sneak through his pityful 3 spine crawlers and kill 7 drones with a single hit. hit him with banshees and win. hit him with vikings to be annoying, constant hellion pressure wont allow him to get mutas fast enough (speedling => gas ... roaches => gas ... lair => gas ... = mutas => GAS), instead he will go hydras because viking/banshee doom is imminent (kill him if hes going muta, youll know what hes doing all the time because of scan and 8 hellions raping his base).in the meantime you should have your expo and the first push with thors tanks blue flame hellions and banshees/vikings will kill him.
yes this is QQing but nonetheless the truth if well executed.
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So what you guys are saying is:
- if you don't harass, you die.
- go 5 rax reaper, even if you know that it will be nerfed in the next patch.
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On August 28 2010 05:12 Dente wrote:
So what you guys are saying is:
- if you don't harass, you die.
- go 5 rax reaper, even if you know that it will be nerfed in the next patch.
Unfortunately, at 900 diamond, the odds are likely that the people giving you advice are well below you.
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imo the entire ZvT matchup is decided by how well you harass.
If a Terran just sits back and lets me macro up I'm not going to bother building an army at all until I feel threatened that he will push, that means I'm exploiting you by droning like crazy. Even if your harass does not seem successful it is preventing him from building drones and that is what is going to decide the big battles later in the game.
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On August 28 2010 04:55 Dente wrote:
I tried:
- pure thor + some rines and helions --> neutral parasite owned me.
- tanks, 2 thors, helions and some rines --> zerg just overran me. Somethimes a low count of rines survive but that's not enough against the muta force.
You're playing too passively.
If you play Zerg for a bit you'll see that most Terrans at your level are doing all sorts of aggressive low-econ timing attacks that are very hard to stop.
Now a macro mid/late game timing appears to be your playstyle which is fine, but you must have some form of aggression in there. You need to using your early-game army advantage.
The strength of your race against Zerg is the fear that Zerg has of your openings. Even if you attack with 4 hellions and kill no drones you've forced the Zerg to make a bunch of lings that would've been drones... and now the Zerg has to consider what followup is coming.
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On August 28 2010 05:12 Dente wrote:
So what you guys are saying is:
- if you don't harass, you die.
- go 5 rax reaper, even if you know that it will be nerfed in the next patch.
Umm yea, its like if youre zerg and u dont outmacro ur opponent you die...
And hellions are the bane of my existence and i would qualify myself as pretty high level^_^
And you definitely cant block hellions with roaches on the ramp hellions will simply kill the roaches if the zerg hold position. Its a micro battle and half of the high level terrans open hellions for a reason.
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On August 28 2010 05:25 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 05:12 Dente wrote:
So what you guys are saying is:
- if you don't harass, you die.
- go 5 rax reaper, even if you know that it will be nerfed in the next patch. Umm yea, its like if youre zerg and u dont outmacro ur opponent you die... And hellions are the bane of my existence and i would qualify myself as pretty high level^_^ And you definitely cant block hellions with roaches on the ramp hellions will simply kill the roaches if the zerg hold position. Its a micro battle and half of the high level terrans open hellions for a reason.
He's not even making the opponent build roaches, from his OP it sounds like he never moves out before the Zerg gets Lair, this is a big mistake.
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If the Zerg is getting roaches to stop your hellions, his mutalisks will be late. He'll also have much less Zerglings due to larva and mineral constraints (or be hurting in economy). He probably also built an extra queen or two for defense and against air harassment in case you went 1-1-1.
If he's blocking his ramp with queens, well, there's nothing you can do about that, but most natural expansions are open enough that you can at least do some damage with hellions. You don't need to commit to them or win the game with them, but you might encourage the Zerg to build more roaches or spines and delay mutalisks even more by forcing him to replace drones. Also, going hellions discourages banelings because the Zerg is assuming you're harassing with factory units because you're going mech or 1-1-1, not bio (at least until he scouts you). Either way, pressuring a Zerg in any situation is better than letting him macro in peace. Every larvae spent on spines and roaches means more overlords, less drones and later & fewer mutalisks.
I'd think most Zergs, myself included, would rather try to handle your hellions with the speedlings we've already built than side-tech to roaches if we're bee-lining for mutas.
I don't get the refusal to use reaper harass. It's effective! That's like me, as a Zerg, saying: "I don't fast expand because it feels like cheating to me." If you have the tools, use them!
Some of the numbers you're quoting seem ridiculous. 5 Ultras on 2 bases (i.e., before Zerg takes his third), plus mutalisks with speedlings? That's a ton of gas and time for just 2 bases. 20+ mutalisks by the time you're pushing him (still from 2 bases)? He must have been accumulating gas forever, building nothing but speedlings, to get enough gas on 2 bases for 20 mutas. It doesn't seem like you're aggressive enough.
Also, as I've said before in other threads, Terran bio only has a hard time after baneling speed is researched and there are infestors on the field -- that's deep lair tech and a lot of gas. You could put early pressure on the Zerg before he has those things and transition into biomech by the time he does.
Lastly, what about the new patch notes is bothering you about Zerg? The siege tank damage reduction will only really effect how quickly they kill hydralisks in TvZ, since it'll be the same number of shots against zerglings, roaches and banelings -- and hydralisks aren't a part of the army comp you're having trouble with. You said you didn't use reapers or bunker cheese anyway, so I'm not sure how those changes make things worse either.
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Because zerg players use the same building to make workers and army units, they will have a large economic lead if they are not forced to produce an army.
Force them to produce an army.
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u can never ever out macro zerg
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On August 28 2010 05:37 Bloodyrock wrote:
u can never ever out macro zerg
wrong
25 workers + mule = 40 drones
nerf 1base T play
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Good thing you added replays to the thread so we can actually see what you do and help you improve..
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You need to post a replay so people can have any idea of what you're doing/what the zerg is doing.
Personally I'd be more interested in the zerg play, but a replay is needed.
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On August 28 2010 05:41 Ciddass wrote:wrong 25 workers + mule = 40 drones nerf 1base T play
15 workers ~ 40 * 15 = 600 minerals per minute.
mule = 270 minerals
hmmmmmm
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EPT
