EPTTvZ-900 diamond terran having problems! - Page 3
| Forum Index > Closed |
|
Ghin
United States2391 Posts
| ||
|
frankcrest
Canada90 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
|
Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
| ||
|
Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
I guess I am mostly bit of a reactive player overall, which really shows in this MU. The terran has to dominate to win, attack early and attack often. I have been trying to shift towards a more bio-oriented build that gets stims early and attacks when that first thor comes out (if he went muta, otherwise just tanks). Banelings are obviously my worst nightmare, but if I can survive those I usually can put some hurt on his natural and contain him. | ||
|
Adeeler
United Kingdom764 Posts
Basically just attacking slower with more turrets/raven or something for defence when you know the muta are getting into significant numbers or just hitting earliar to try to force some use of gas by the zerg to lower the numbers of muta that come out at once. But i've found marine, medivacs are still very effective at holding off my muta. | ||
|
fishball232
United States90 Posts
“ QUOTE ” I remembered something that Park Myung Soo said. It’s been a while, so it’s a bit fuzzy, but it was something like “Mech should be saved for Protoss.” I feel the same way, and I’m fully confident. Good management and macro is the key. 2010.05.08, Jaedong | ||
|
SC2Phoenix
Canada2814 Posts
On August 28 2010 05:37 Bloodyrock wrote: What evidence do you have to prove this? i Have been out macroed but a 2 base terran lots of time.u can never ever out macro zerg | ||
|
TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
 (sorry!). Essentially, you're a pretty passive player who likes to do a well macro'd attack sometime into the mid-game (prior to my 3rd base kicking in). That's a great idea, but in my opinion, the Terran of SC2 has to make use of its huge plethora of harassing abilities to weaken the Zerg economy, prior to doing this mid-game killing blow.If you allow the Zerg to take his natural expansion without contention, and saturate it quickly, the Zerg will definitely have a stronger economy than you. You want to prevent the Zerg from saturating his natural as much as possible. How do you do this? By making him spend larvae on something other than Drones. Zerglings are very Larvae costly, as you need a lot of Lings to actually defend against the various Terran harassment options. Try keeping the Zerg on his toes with hellions, reapers, or even just an early squad of MMHellion or something else. The type of Terran I hate fighting the most are the ones who use ALL of their harassment options, and hit my economy hard. Not only does it hurt my existing drones, but it forces me to build fighting units instead of Drones, further delaying saturation. For example, i played against Dayvie twice yesterday, and he used almost every harassment option available to him. He started with a quick reaper and bunker to delay my expo. Then he went to reactor-hellion. Then he got blue flame hellion. Then he got a banshee. Then he got 2 drop ships full of marine/hellion in the back of my base with 4 hellion at the front (this was the assault that really put me behind). Then he got a viking to shoot down OLs. And then finally, after I was barely regaining my balance from his crazy harass, he attacked with his main force of MMM-Hellion, a tank and whatever air units he had left. Essentially it was all harass harass harass, then kill. If you are completely averse to this style of harassment play, then you might have to devise a new build order to match the Zerg economy... something like the 14-CC of SCBW. The game is young, and I totally encourage this kind of exploration! But.. with what we know now, as a young Sc2 community, it seems like Terran absolutely must use aggressive harass in order to defeat Zerg. | ||
|
alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
In broodwar, it was fine to play defensively against mutalisk harass until you had your 3 tanks and vessel and then push out, but in sc2 this is not the case. Because of the queen's inject larvae ability, passive play automatically hands the zerg the economic advantage on a platter by allowing him to expand and mass drones at a frightening rate. While terrans used to allow this to happen knowing that their primarily siege tank army was capable of dealing with any 200/200 zerg force, this is no longer the case after several patch changes and zergs learning to utilize all of their options. Therefore, the viking's mobility is necessary because it allows the terran the opportunity to be aggressive, forcing the zerg to make units it didn't want to make and denying expansions. However there are two problems with style of play: 1. If the zerg does not open mutalisks (nearly all zvt play up till very recently), vikings are simply not very strong against any other composition. Overlord sniping is nice, but queens anti-air is too powerful for this to be game breaking. 2. Supposing the zerg does open mutalisks, everyone knows mutas are fairly strong at fighting them head to head. For #1, I suggest scouting heavily with the first viking to see exactly what tech route he is doing. You may have to drop a few extra scans to be 100% sure, as this point is key in decision making as to whether to dedicate to vikings or not. For #2, I have come to the conclusion that indeed vikings are not so effective head to head against mutas, so the only option in to support them with some other unit. We have 3 choices: marines, thors, and ghosts (I suppose battlecruisers but that is not viable in the relevant timeframe). Of these three options each has pros and cons. Marines - Strong dps against mutalisks and with stim they are capable of catching up to fights very quickly. However, they are hard countered by banelings which is such a simple transition for the zerg. Thors - Very slow, but their insane range makes up for this somewhat. They are fairly effective against ground units as well, although strongly countered by neural parasite, meaning you are more robust all around. Ghosts - Good dps against mutas, but tough to mass and very gas intensive. Not highly effective against other zerg compositions. From my experimenting, I have found starting with marines as support and transitioning to a few thors is the most viable addition to viking openings, with marauders or possibly siege tanks supplementing. This lays out nicely because medivacs can be produced from the reactored starport to supplement the bio portion of your army, and the armory necessary for thors allows you to upgrade ship armor, a very powerful tool against mutalisks due to their bouncing glaives. edit: ^got the rep? I'd love to see dayvie in action | ||
|
Crosswind
United States279 Posts
-Cross | ||
|
Leeoku
1617 Posts
| ||
|
TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
| ||
|
Mikilatov
United States3897 Posts
On August 28 2010 08:35 TSL-Lore wrote: I'm about a ~1050 diamond Zerg player, having a good amount of success vs Terran recently. After reading your post, it seems like you are the kind of player I love to prey on the most > (sorry!). Essentially, you're a pretty passive player who likes to do a well macro'd attack sometime into the mid-game (prior to my 3rd base kicking in). That's a great idea, but in my opinion, the Terran of SC2 has to make use of its huge plethora of harassing abilities to weaken the Zerg economy, prior to doing this mid-game killing blow.If you allow the Zerg to take his natural expansion without contention, and saturate it quickly, the Zerg will definitely have a stronger economy than you. You want to prevent the Zerg from saturating his natural as much as possible. How do you do this? By making him spend larvae on something other than Drones. Zerglings are very Larvae costly, as you need a lot of Lings to actually defend against the various Terran harassment options. Try keeping the Zerg on his toes with hellions, reapers, or even just an early squad of MMHellion or something else. The type of Terran I hate fighting the most are the ones who use ALL of their harassment options, and hit my economy hard. Not only does it hurt my existing drones, but it forces me to build fighting units instead of Drones, further delaying saturation. For example, i played against Dayvie twice yesterday, and he used almost every harassment option available to him. He started with a quick reaper and bunker to delay my expo. Then he went to reactor-hellion. Then he got blue flame hellion. Then he got a banshee. Then he got 2 drop ships full of marine/hellion in the back of my base with 4 hellion at the front (this was the assault that really put me behind). Then he got a viking to shoot down OLs. And then finally, after I was barely regaining my balance from his crazy harass, he attacked with his main force of MMM-Hellion, a tank and whatever air units he had left. Essentially it was all harass harass harass, then kill. If you are completely averse to this style of harassment play, then you might have to devise a new build order to match the Zerg economy... something like the 14-CC of SCBW. The game is young, and I totally encourage this kind of exploration! But.. with what we know now, as a young Sc2 community, it seems like Terran absolutely must use aggressive harass in order to defeat Zerg. This is a fantastic post on how I believe Terrans currently should be playing against Zerg in SC2 (So far anyway). Unfortunately this type of play takes some mad multitasking skill, and a bit of a leave from the typical turtle -> timing push we're all used to from SC1, but it really seems ideal. It's unfortunate for players like me, who aren't really that proactive on the map, and really prefer the turtle into timing push style. | ||
|
splcer
United States166 Posts
On August 28 2010 07:00 Owarida wrote: The terran tears taste so good....YUM YUM YUM If the flanking of zerglings is becoming an issue you may want to try to abuse maps walls more? I find sometimes my practice partners will huge walls on their way to my base because it stops my lings from getting successful flanks. As far as muta/thor splash, stim rines really destroy muta so perhaps just drop the thor as far as anti air and just use it to counter ground when necessary. Perhaps cloaked ghosts to try to emp infestors? With a strong bio army that may be your only option. +1 especially about the terran tears omg people complaining about zerg being strong makes me smile | ||
|
ChickenLips
2912 Posts
On August 28 2010 08:42 TSL-Lore wrote: Yes i have the replay, but I'm currently at work. I'd post it in this thread when I get home (bout an hour) I cannot wait for this replay, TvZ is currently my worst MU and I'm working hard to improve but it's tough since having switched from Protoss to Terran I am very familiar how their macro mechanics and general game flow work but with Zerg I just seem to intuitively make the wrong decisions, lol. | ||
|
Iron_
United States389 Posts
Most of my games since the revalation that Muta kill Thors come down to my Tanks, Marines, and Medivacs vs their Lings, Banes, and Muta. The funny thing about this army composition is that the game goes one of two ways... either I completely blow up his entire army and lose 20 pop, or he completely blows up my army and loses just his banes. What it really comes down to is a battle of wits when it comes to tank movement. If he rushes in while my tanks are on the move, I am finished. If he attacks a seiged position, or I manange to move up in range of a base or 2 while seiged, then I win. The zerg overlords are a pain in the ass since they are everywhere and see where your army is. I've been building one viking to scout ahead of my army, but after reading some ideas, using sensor towers for this purpose is an excellent idea. This way, catching me out of position will be more difficult. In any case, it seems like a crazy intense micro battle. I dont use reapers because its pretty dumb in my opinion to base your play on something that is going to get nerfed. This is probably why I feel the matchup is fairly balanced. | ||
|
Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On August 28 2010 08:56 Iron_ wrote: I dont use reapers because its pretty dumb in my opinion to base your play on something that is going to get nerfed. That is exactly why I don't use the 5rax reaper build. Again: thanks for your reaction guys! You're awesome! | ||
|
charlie420247
United States692 Posts
2. i think far too many terrans have forgot how to effectively stop expanding zergs. you dont need a huge mega death push. you need effective harrassment. instead of pushing try dropping 6 hellions behind the minerals or even a vac full of stimming rines. in other words you dont have to take out the expansion right away to prevent them from taking over. just prevent them from mining at it. and i think terrans are getting over eager with thier pushes anyway. they just get earlier and earlier and more frequent. 3. abuse tank thor to the fullest by staying turtled building turrets and expanding with the zerg. let him HAVE his third base if it means you can take your own third and get a 200/200 army. 4. i wanna see some raven play in the future. i think it might help alot with pdd and hsm. 5.take tsl lores post to heart lol! he speaks the truth. | ||
|
TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
This first game shows what I was talking about in my previous post about harass, harass, harass, then kill. Features Dayvie in action. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-143575.jpg) This second game is with a Terran named FredZ. I was completely dominating him but one misstep by me and a brilliant (or just lucky?) attack by him lost me the game. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-143577.jpg) These games make me look really bad, haha. | ||
|
MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On August 28 2010 10:01 TSL-Lore wrote: Ok here are some replays, as promised. This first game shows what I was talking about in my previous post about harass, harass, harass, then kill. Features Dayvie in action. This second game is with a Terran named FredZ. I was completely dominating him but one misstep by me and a brilliant (or just lucky?) attack by him lost me the game. These games make me look really bad, haha. Completely unrelated, but I just wanted to say: Dayvie is such a baller. Man that guy's good. | ||
| ||
