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TSL-Lore
United States412 Posts
On August 28 2010 10:41 MrBitter wrote: Completely unrelated, but I just wanted to say: Dayvie is such a baller. Man that guy's good. He committed to 2 port banshees, and saw that i scouted it, so he got 2 dropships instead =[ I have no idea how I could have predicted or prepared for that. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On August 28 2010 11:08 TSL-Lore wrote: He committed to 2 port banshees, and saw that i scouted it, so he got 2 dropships instead =[ I have no idea how I could have predicted or prepared for that. To me, that's a perfect example of how much depth T has right now. Hard to get away with sneaky stuff like that with the other races. Still, well played by him, big time. ^^ | ||
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Vei
United States2845 Posts
On August 28 2010 12:00 MrBitter wrote: To me, that's a perfect example of how much depth T has right now. Hard to get away with sneaky stuff like that with the other races. Still, well played by him, big time. ^^ If by depth you mean T has so many more options and instant tech units available that no other race does -- all of which require different counters -- then yes you are right, Terran has depth. ~_~ I'm sure you didn't mean it like that, but jesus Terran just pisses me off with the amount of openers/etc they have. | ||
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Iron_
United States389 Posts
Kuddos my friend. You will not see this often. | ||
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
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HTX
Germany265 Posts
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iEchoic
United States1776 Posts
On August 28 2010 13:13 Darpa wrote: These threads are going to pop up more and more as terrans realise they cant counter mutas anymore. The only other unit they can use effectively is marines, and if they try to ever move out of there base with marines, the zerg players will just smash them with banelings and speed. Good post, and I've been saying something similar for a while. I've been saying that the minute that Thors stop being a viable counter to mutas, the whole matchup is going to flip on its head. Marines are the only other viable counter because vikings blow, and Zerg has the two hardest counters in the game to marines in banelings and infestors. TvZ is balanced on the tip of a knife. I have a similarly bad TvZ, and have had for a while (though I consider my TvT and TvP good). It must be related to my non-aggressive style as well. I don't ever see harassing zerg as worth it because drops and hellions are insta-shut down on creep. All you can do is a series of all-ins, and if ultras come out, you're hosed. | ||
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Azerbaijan
United States660 Posts
I suggest watching Gretorp's episodes; specifically the third one where he talks about learning theory and how he approaches TvZ. Link: http://www.fnatic.com/tv/325/Gretorp-Episode-3-Learning-Theory-and-TvZ-Theory.html The TvZ part starts around 3 quarters of the way in if I remember correctly. The first part about learning and improving is good for anyone wanting to get better at Sc2 though it is quite long. I suggest watching the whole thing if you can find the time. The episode is slightly old now as there is no reference to Zergs using the magic box against thors but the core principles are still very applicable. | ||
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threehundred
Canada911 Posts
then i just changed my build for earlier aggression and smoother expo transitions / opportunities. been working well, i still get crushed from time to time but it's surving. b.o. 11gas fast pre-igniter 1-1-1 command sometimes command before port | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
As of now, Terrans need to start finding a better way to protect their marines from banelings. The few ideas that come to mind and are semi-plausible solutions are turret walls with ravens, medivac/thor drops in front of a bio army, and massing tanks, all of which are rather weak, considering turrets die to 2 banelings, thors are hella expensive and slow to build, and tanks are no longer effective enough at sniping banelings quickly enough. Everything else takes way too long to get and are not worth the wait or the price. | ||
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Elevenst
Canada249 Posts
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Marksman
Malaysia523 Posts
What I know as of yet. Thors are proven inefficient so its better to go marine medivacs against mass muta like SC1. Problem: Banelings (Especially in large quantities such as 40-70) How to counter banelings? To what I know, its 1) Tanks 2) Banshees (Can't shoot air duh, ignore other variables for now) 3) Tanking non light units (Thors / Marauders) Now, assuming two possible cases that I've seen 1) Zerg sticks with muta ling baneling 2) Goes Ling baneling roach ultra (Or a few variants) Now, what about Ravens? From the replays I've seen, the minerals so heavily spent on marines (4 - 5 rax reactors woot?) is a lot, that leaves a lot of gas (1000 - 2000 in some cases). Getting both HSM and energy upgrade I think might be the turning factor. Reason 1) HSM hits air and ground units in area of splash 2) Auto Turrets can be tankers against banelings 3) Ravens provides extra vision for tanks 4) If no mutalisks, Raven have free reign to harass / dwindle down the Zerg army or economy What about mass muta? Well, get more marines and be careful with your Raven (Just like SC1) Upgrades play a role between MMM and banelings. Possible problem: Medivacs You need medivacs as well or your army is going to collapse. I think whats possible is to have 2 starports (1 with reactor, 1 with tech lab) or 3 at max. This is similar to the SK Terran in SC1 but we are still maintaining tank production against ultralisks, keep us alive during the process. Whatcha think? Just for the lulz...mass battlecruisers. | ||
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
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Marksman
Malaysia523 Posts
On August 28 2010 16:09 MrBitter wrote: If you get Ravens, it shouldn't be for HSM or auto turrets, but for point defense drone, which is game-changingly powerful. Yeah! That too. It would work wonderfully against mass muta albeit not so good if following the second composition mix i listed. Still, theres always other options (HSM Auto Turret) I do worry about the energy problems within PDD, i'll check up on that | ||
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TriniMasta
United States1323 Posts
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SoFFacet
United States101 Posts
On August 28 2010 13:33 iEchoic wrote: Good post, and I've been saying something similar for a while. I've been saying that the minute that Thors stop being a viable counter to mutas, the whole matchup is going to flip on its head. Marines are the only other viable counter because vikings blow, and Zerg has the two hardest counters in the game to marines in banelings and infestors. TvZ is balanced on the tip of a knife. I have a similarly bad TvZ, and have had for a while (though I consider my TvT and TvP good). It must be related to my non-aggressive style as well. I don't ever see harassing zerg as worth it because drops and hellions are insta-shut down on creep. All you can do is a series of all-ins, and if ultras come out, you're hosed. Morrow and Sarens beat Muta Bane without Thors in their Game 1s vs Dimaga and IdrA at IEM (both Steppes games as I recall), I look at those as examples of how Terran can still win without resorting to 13 different forms of harassment leading up to the final blow. | ||
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alphafuzard
United States1610 Posts
On August 28 2010 17:03 SoFFacet wrote: Morrow and Sarens beat Muta Bane without Thors in their Game 1s vs Dimaga and IdrA at IEM (both Steppes games as I recall), I look at those as examples of how Terran can still win without resorting to 13 different forms of harassment leading up to the final blow. Steppes is the smallest map with the shortest rush distance, meaning delaying the terran push via things like mutalisk backstabbing is much less effective | ||
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Marksman
Malaysia523 Posts
Here's the picture for unit composition Image + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/4002/screenshot2010082819510.jpg) Click image for larger sized version Method of testing: Direct attacks, marines stim with Ravens Deploying HSM. Zerg direct attack move. Constant variables: Upgrades all at 0-0, only Terran have their relevant upgrades (Combat Shield, Stim, HSM) Results show that PDD is very inferior against mass muta compared to HSM due to stacking effect (Controllable factor). HSM is more effective in larger numbers. Splitting baneling and Mutalisks creates better results against the Terran albeit a bit more difficult to split individual mutalisks. This'll force Zerg to not just Attack move into a marine army and use the anti stack technique to attack. HSM will not be as effective but if placed right can decimate the banelings around the targeted mutalisk as the banelings near the marine ball. Problem: Raven's Range. The Range is just horrible. You're at high risk to lose a lot of your ravens especially since the mutalisks are COMING TO YOUR RAVENS. You have to micro your ravens back instantly after deploying HSM in order to save them. This compromises your ability to perform marine splitting micro as well (Unless pre-split). Additional information: Turrets suck to tank damage against banelings for those who don't know, banelings do 80 damage to buildings. Turret can tank a maximum of 2 banelings. Of course I can't say that this is 100% accurate even experimentally. More testing will be required with actual players but it's a direction to look at. :D | ||
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Darpa
Canada4413 Posts
On August 28 2010 13:33 iEchoic wrote: Good post, and I've been saying something similar for a while. I've been saying that the minute that Thors stop being a viable counter to mutas, the whole matchup is going to flip on its head. Marines are the only other viable counter because vikings blow, and Zerg has the two hardest counters in the game to marines in banelings and infestors. TvZ is balanced on the tip of a knife. I have a similarly bad TvZ, and have had for a while (though I consider my TvT and TvP good). It must be related to my non-aggressive style as well. I don't ever see harassing zerg as worth it because drops and hellions are insta-shut down on creep. All you can do is a series of all-ins, and if ultras come out, you're hosed. This is pretty much exactly how I feel about the matchup, rarely does (non cheese) early agression result in anything significant, and if you do push hellions, they immediatly muta tech, and gain map control with the muta/ling/bling composistion. Banelings are the "bane" of my existance in TvZ, pun intended. It is my opinion that Muta/ling/Bling comp will be pretty imbalanced for the immediate future. I am not even sure how they can really fix it either, without crippling one race. It seems to me that banelings need a movement speed reduction (with the speed upgrade), and/or they need to do friendly splash (either a certain percentage of their damage, or full damage against non-baneling units). Or a significant HP nerf, so that marines can actually kill them when the zerg player has 50 of them, I think a damage reduction by about 1/3 would work as well. Maybe making changes similar to the tank --> making them as effective against armor (like marauders/buildings) and less effective against light units. As it stands now, every TvZ i play is either 1. I drop 3-5 rax + factory and all in the zerg player and hope to kill him with bunkers or production. 2. I try early harass, it rarely works, then he techs to mutas, keeps me contained in my base with mutas, and murders me if i move out with banelingsm until ultras come out, then he just runs over me. As for the idra morrow thing, I dont think thats a really good example, seeing as how morrow beat idra with the same cheese build every time, 5 rax reapers (which is getting nerfed) and 3 rax fac all in. Which i even stated in my post works on occasion. | ||
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Meldrath
United States620 Posts
On August 28 2010 05:41 Ciddass wrote: wrong 25 workers + mule = 40 drones nerf 1base T play this is ignorant and outright false. Please try adding something to the conversation next time. Oh and by the way I feel the OP plight it seems thors are far less viable an option then they were. But I still use them in my army becuase they tend to keep the zerg from having to many bainlings. | ||
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