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On May 29 2004 14:12 Tien wrote:
I guess this is the wrong forum to be asking this question...
Teamliquid is quite educated in BW but when the questions aren't directed at BW the field of knowledge begins to slip away.
I would like to argue this with someone who has a profound level of knowledge and understanding about a fight. If you do, respond to page 12 post. Im sick and tired of hearing bullshit and ignorant replies like:
"Ali outweighed Bruce by 80 pounds, Lee loses automatically."
"Bruce was just an actor, what does he know about fighting?"
If you are one of those types that would answer that way, please just stick to BW arguments, dont spill out your sorry excuse for a fighting education upon this topic.
BTW, I am a HUGE ali fan too. Im not a "Bruce lee owned on tv, Bruce LEe owns!" I study just as much from Ali as I have from Bruce Lee. I have numerous videos on Ali and I consider him one of the greatest.
I still dont understand why some of you have never read anything about Bruce Lee yet you still talk about him?
EDIT: Frozen, you seem like the only one rooting for Ali that has any idea about a fight. I would be glad to continue this discussion with you. You seem to know what you are talking about.
this post should reduce at least half the ignorance in the replies of this topic if taken correctly
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i think casper explained it perfectly, dont know why people are still arguing 
ali would win
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could you repost what he said? i'd like to see it, i was gone for awhile...... And im incredibly lazy.
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most of it is on the first page
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
Interesting, finally some competence in these posts. Thank you Newbsailot. Hands down anyone has to admit Ali has more fighting experience. Bruce Lee has fought quite a lot too in his life but no one knows the exact numbers. He fought against Wong Jack Man, a martial artists the chinese sent after bruce to close down his school. Lee took 3 mins to beat him but he felt it was too long. This was like 1961 or 1962. Bruce then started training intensively after that.
He was challenged quite a bit while making movies. A lot of the extras hired for his movies were black belt martial artists who were offended by his cockiness. They oftened challenged him in public and he never loss once. I dont know the calibre of his competition or how many he fought but I wouldnt rule out that Bruce doesnt have experience either. However Ali has more.
Edge: Ali, but not by a long shot.
Striking:
Ali punched fast, and so did Bruce. However Ali most likely hit harder because he was bigger and up against bigger competition. He had to bust guys like Joe Frazier and George Forman. His jabs were incredible. Bruce on the other hand applied A LOT of boxing strikes to his arsenal. Bruce was very powerful aswell. He possessed one the most powerful wrists in the world and that was able to give him tremendous amounts of power from a snap punch. However, the edge is given to Ali because he has reach.
Edge: Ali, but not by a long shot either.
Kicks:
I dont care if Ali was kicked from the ground by in an exhibition match. Face it, Ali has never trained to be kicked because whats the use? He boxes. Bruce Lee's sidekick is known to rip punching bags in half. This is FACT, I would not make shit like this up.
Edge: Bruce, by a long shot
ground fighting:
Hmmmm, I dont know much about this one. I know Ali doesnt train grappling cuz he is a boxer but Bruce did train grappling however I dont know how good he was. I would assume he didnt do that much grappling. I would name this equal if Bruce Lee was not as crazy as he actually were. Ground fighting is not only grappling. You can still do eye gouges, groins hits, biting, ear ripping. Bruce Lee trained himself so that he WOULD do such things if he ever got into a ground fight. I read a couple of his books and he constantly tells you to finger jab to the eye instead of the throat. That is a hard thing to do lemme tell you. Blinding someone with your fingers is very hard mentally to do.
Edge: Bruce, but not by a long shot.
EDIT: Footwork
Ali had tremendous footwork and Bruce Lee even copied him, but to a great degree of success.
Edge: Ali, not by a long shot.
Mind set:
Equal, these two guys were very analytical fighters and aren't stupid. They know what they can do and cannot. They are also both very determined to fight and are both natural born killers. This is not a battle of wimps here, this is ww3. When these guys fight they become INSANE.
Edge:Equal
Strength:
I dont know exactly how strong Ali was but he was a tough motherfucker. So was Bruce. Bruce engages in TREMENDOUS feats of strength, try doing good mornings with 120lbs, holding a 70lb kettlebell in front of you arms locked out. However, this is where Ali's size comes in to tip the scales into his favor, Ali outweighes this guy by 80 pounds.
Edge: Ali, not by a long shot though.
What were they fighting for?
Ali fought for the ring while Bruce fought for the street. There are no rules in the street and that is where the fight will be staged between the two. Bruce Lee will use all the deadly techniques that are illegal in the ring. Kicks to the groin, knee, and shins. Biting, ripping apart, you name it. The street doesnt have a referee to tell the other person to stop and thats the way Bruce Lee trained. If you dont train the way you fight, you will fight the way you train. Meaning Ali will not fight street style, he will box. Bruce Lee's street mentality and training the reflect the street puts him over the edge.
Edge: Bruce, by a long shot.
This would be enough for me to say Bruce would emerge victor, namely due to the fact that Bruce outshines Ali in the aspect of kicking and training to reflect the street.
Strategy:
What makes me confident Bruce will win is that Bruce Lee has watched countless Ali fights to copy his footwork and his amazing jab. Bruce Lee knows exactly how Ali will fight. The boxer way. Ali at most, can only know the way Bruce fights by what people tell him. Videos of Bruce Lee fightings? none. No way of knowing what Bruce will pull out of his hat. Bruce knows this and will use it to his advantage when fighting Ali. Bruce WILL NOT box Ali, Bruce will use his kicks and street training to emerge victor.
Edge: Bruce
The winner imo therefore is Bruce. This is coming from a UNBIASED person. I consider these two guys my idols. I respect Bruce just as much as I respect Ali.
EDIT: If you dont know jack shit about Bruce Lee, DO NOT POST.
EDIT2: What I mean by the street is No Holds Barred. That is where you know who will win. The problem is Bruce would never fight in the ring against Ali and Ali would never fight in the street against Bruce.
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That's a pretty good analysis there Tien, I love Bruce Lee and believe he is the best martial artist ever. But Ali is just.... a machine... until I see these 2 fight, I will reserve my judgement.
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Bruce Lee wouldn't survive in "the street"
Not fighting Ali, jsut in general
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Austin10833 Posts
If you're talking about a single fight, either one could win. This theorectical fight may have taken place in the "street" or in a Gym, but one place it most certainly wouldn't take place in is a test tube.
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On May 29 2004 16:35 Eniram wrote:
Bruce Lee wouldn't survive in "the street"
Not fighting Ali, jsut in general
Go away.
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For starters, exactly how do you know it is FACT that bruce lee ripped bunching bags apart with a single kick? B/c a friend of his was quoted in his own book? because some other well known fighter said that he saw it in the basement? Cmon, need more than that. This is something that should have been filmed for the purposes of demonstration.
You also said there are no demo videos of bruce, so that really invalidates a lot of what you and others are saying about bruces true ability to fight in real life. Where are you people getting this information from?
Lastly, as someone early on stated, Lee watching Ali fight on tape is the equivalent to us watching broodwar replays to beat boxer. You think its gonna happen? Fuck no.
Honestly im still undecided when it comes to no holds barred fighting. We all talk about bruce kicking kneecaps and shit, something of which i doubt he has much real world practice performing because um, how many times are you gonna get to kick someones knee backwards to perfect this strike? So i dont really know how Ali's leg would handle a flying kick to the knee, assuming he couldnt move it for some reason. The only thing that is for certain, is that ali has countless years of experience in actual fighting. And you have to look at the evidence. The evidence points to Ali winning. Everything based on bruce is either hearsay, or rare things accomplished.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
James Coburn in countless interviews in documentaries cleary describes how Bruce Lee ripped his punching bag in two. I would take James Coburn's word on this because this is out of a documentary. Go rent one if you dont believe me. Im serious.
Joe Lewis, the man voted greatest martial arts fighter in the world was instructed by Bruce Lee. He never published or wrote anything about what Bruce taught him until last month when he published his book, saying he could not keep the secret of Bruce Lee forever. He is the one who has won entire competitions using only his sidekick. The same sidekick Bruce Lee taught him how to perfect. Note that Bruce started to teach him only after he saw Joe Lewis win these competitions with that sidekick. You'd have to imagine how good Bruce Lee must have been to teach someone like Joe Lewis how to perform a better sidekick, after he won entire tournaments only using it. Joe Lewis talks about how Bruce 'doubled' his speed. I have like 5 books on Bruce Lee, ive read em all.
About his footwork. Bruce Lee had incredible footwork. What it took people 3 weeks to learn he learned in 3 days. This is told by a kung fu master who traded kung fu techniques for cha cha lessons from bruce lee. Look this up, he learned with this guy on a boat trip from china to the states.
Bruce Lee had incredible tuition and learning capabilities. Look at the video tape of his footwork against Kareem Abdul Jabar. Its a movie i know but the footwork is the same and incredibly quick.
You have to be in the mindset that Bruce Lee was abnormal, he isnt 'just' a man, he was a martial arts fanatic and legend.
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Russian Federation1020 Posts
Good stuff Tien, but you're clearly not unbiased. I enjoy reading your stuff, except that one lil tid bit =)
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
fine, I admit, Bruce Lee is my bigger idol  , happy now?
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I saw video of Lee kicking these bags and they look really weak compared to the normal bags today which are quite tough and no one will break it with punches and kicks.
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Tien that was probably the most unbiased post in this topic. Very good analysis
One thing though, how do you know ali wouldnt try to outsamrt bruce and not "box" in a pre-set way but try something different? Also who is to say Ali never had a street fight, or grew up fighting on the streets? Either way thats a VERY good analysis, even better than Frozen's which is saying alot.Just thinking of the mental battle between Ali and Bruce before the physical is crazy as it is
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Norway28706 Posts
"until I see these 2 fight, I will reserve my judgement."
kinda doubt that will happen
and newbsaibot, people don't become legends for no reason. to do that, you usually have to perform something humans aren't normally capable of.
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Haha it was funny when i was reading newbsaibot say "why would you believe those things, their impossible" HAHAHAHA
and those THINGS were 1 inch punch, kicking 300lb pound bags, 2 finger pushups.
haha if you actually watch the chinese version of return of the dragon, you can see the white guy fly out of the camera at the alley scene from bruce's sidekick and that guy looked 6'2. And the asian dude holding the bag also flew at least 9 feet.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
HovZ, Your credibility in this forum has been reduced lower than dirt. Im surpised you still open your mouth to talk, havent you've been burned enough to stfu forever? So dont be surprised, you are talking to the air.
EDIT: to refresh your poor memory, I remember the time you went on this forum and started talking big shit to the Spanish players, the whole post you were blabbering on about how shitty spanish players were and you were challenging them upfront. Then when the challenge came, you quietly turned your trash talking to nil and turned into the biggest pussy ive ever seen in my life. This is when your credibility no longer existed. Please, go pick a fight in the street or something and stfu.
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what it comes down to is "do u think the guys who wrote books, said things in interviews that they witnessed, worked out with bruce, etc. were all lying?" if u do, then yeah, bruce lee is super weak and loses. if those physical feats are true, u would think he would have a chance in a street fight against a larger guy known for his boxing
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EPT
