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I have read the rules for creating a thread here and I hope everything is fine and cool for this little write-up I have in mind. I don't present the required replays as what I'll be talking about is really the tech-tree - I both hope and assume that it's understood that replays for this thread would be pointless. One thing before I start: English is not my first language so you might come across a few odd phrasings or whatever, in that case either ignore or ask me what I meant if it's not obvious to you. Oh, and before I forget: I'm a Gold League random player, have recently decided to main Protoss.
The Bane of Terran: Decision-Making
Let's start off by looking at Starcraft: Brood War. There was a lot of discussion about which race was the easiest to play. Some people claimed it was Terran as their buildings and units are self-explanatory to a certain degree (where do I build a tank, barracks or factory? And where does a marine come from?), and then others agreed but pointed out that Protoss was in fact easier to actually play because they - on a (very) low-level of play - don't require as much micro, they have fewer units (which are more expensive though), their match-ups are more forgiving and so on (without turning this into a point of discussion, consider that even Bisu agrees - go to "SC2 Reactions - SKT1", can't get a direct link). This can easily end up (and frequently has) in trash-talk, "IMBA!" cries and unproductive discussion.
Enough about ancient history, let's switch our focus to Starcraft 2. Again, Terran has the advantage of easy-to-figure-out building and unit names, granted, but: Terran players have an incredible amount of super important decisions to make - many, many more than Protoss or Zerg. Again, I'm not talking about balance here, just that, as a Terran player, you better be extremely sure you know exactly what you're doing, your decision making must be spot-on or you will ultimately fail.
Let's try and make that a little more specific. First of all I want to point out that all Starcraft players make decisions and lots of them. What builder order/strategy/tactic do I employ? What unit mixture do I get? Where, when and with what number of units do I apply pressure? The list goes on and on and is absolutely not race specific. However, there are some "overlying" decisions. We could refer to these as macro-decisions. These are race-specific so let's look at them in that order.
Protoss have their Chrono Boost ability. You have to decide what to boost when and it's often an important step in your game plan. However, I personally feel that (a) it's often pretty obvious what to speed up and (b) its significance drops very quickly in the later mid- to late-game as a few seconds more or less on something is more and more unlikely to cost you the game through a serious disadvantage. An example for (a): you put down your pylon on 9, you then have enough energy to boost once, you wait until the pylon is up to actually use the boost and then go ahead - if you go for quick warp gate tech, you boost that. If see your enemy go for early aggression you boost out a zealot or a stalker or whatever. Regarding (b), there are late-game situations where you still need it, but again, it's self explanatory, say you tech-switch to Colossus in late-game, you want your Colossi to pop out of your two Robo Facilities as fast as possible so you boost them. You also want the Thermal Lance range upgrade so you give that a boost as soon as possible. You could look at the decision to get Warp Gate technology as a second macro decision for Protoss although as it has literally no drawback to my knowledge, I wouldn't necessarily agree.
Zerg have the Queen. I feel that it's even less of a decision what to do with it than it is for Protoss players. Larva injection can really never hurt as it's not a temporary effect (as Chrono Boost is). If you don't do it in time, you don't really lose any effect either (until the 200 energy mark of course). The other Queen abilities can be thrown in at will but really there is barely any real decision making necessary. If you have 25 energy left and no hatchery that is currently free for injection, just throw down a creep tumor. You can make the decision to go for a creep tumor first or just after the first injection if you want to (see Idra's recent games) but that's something you establish way ahead of time.
![[image loading]](http://www.welt.de/multimedia/archive/1176398365000/00212/titanic_212987g.jpg) Time for some hardcore decision making...
For Terran, the first decision is whether to get an Orbital Command or a Planetary Fortress. With the former, you then decide between using energy on MULEs, scans or supply calldown. For every production building (that is, barracks, factory and starport) you need to decide whether you get no add-on, a reactor or a techlab. A wrong choice somewhere in this giant decision tree can easily cost you the game (see Day9's recent loss to his brother from the HDH Invitational #1 Ro16). Granted, you do make a lot of these decisions before hand (as I mentioned before with the other two races) but there are SO many more to make that every player, sooner or later, will be in a situation where you need to decide quickly what to get. Especially with the three choices in the Orbital Command (do I scan or do I MULE, do I scan or do I MULE, do I... you know the drill) as, apart from the first minute or two, I hardy believe Terran players will ever fully map out their game plan to a degree where they know exactly at 104 supply to scan and then MULE the three next times, the scan again, MULE four times etc. Actually I don't even think that's humanly possible to time and keep track while playing.
![[image loading]](http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a7/dkh2/sc2writeup1.png) These macro decisions exclude the decision for what units and actual tech buildings to get, what upgrades etc.
In the introduction I referred to Starcraft: Brood War and mentioned the problem with Terran being the most attractive race to newcomers but then biting them in the behind as soon as you get into actual competitive games and with that regard, I fear Starcraft 2 hasn't improved one bit. Newcomers that choose Terran must feel majorly irritated by the ridiculous amount of decisions they have to make. It's like when you're in a restaurant, you want to order some food because you're hungry but the waiter won't stop nagging you with questions of what exactly you want, how you want it done, what kind of this and what of that you want and what you want with that.
It's important to point out that this alone isn't enough to proof that Terran is harder to get into than the other races as there are, of course, many more aspects in the game that I haven't focused on in this short write-up.
What I'd like to see in this thread: Do you feel agree with the very one-sided distribution of these macro-decisions? If so, do you think they make an impact on the difficulty of the race? What are possible chances that could ease this or is the current situation just fine as it is?
What I don't want to see in this thread: Talk about racial balance. The races should be different to play and we're talking about just one of these factors that make them different. Please stay within that scope as much as possible as I have tried to do in the original post.
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Two things
1) Decision making is not a bad thing.
2) Queen needs more decision making if anything.
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I think Protoss should get Shield Battery on Nexus, that would give some more decision making for them ^^
BTW, great post
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i like the amount of decision making involved with terran! I feel like i have so many different possibilities and subtle changes in play that i want to experiment with. As for difficulty in choice making, i dont think its that much harder than the other races. Zerg for instance has a lot of choices involving when and what units to make.
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On May 03 2010 23:15 Archerofaiur wrote:
Two things
1) Decision making is not a bad thing.
2) Queen needs more decision making if anything.
There are upsides to decision making, of course. Especially considering Zerg is lacking variety. I admit I focused on the downside of it.
Why does a Queen need decision making though? Could you try to back up one-liners like that? It helps the quality of discussion. To my knowledge, spamming larva injection and then spawning a single creep tumor is no decision making. Do you mean when deciding whether to use a queen to defend? I admit I haven't played Zerg as much as I have Protoss and Terran in Starcraft 2.
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I feel like your diagram for Protoss misrepresents the decisionmaking that goes into what to boost - perhaps you should have nexus pointing to every single protoss building =p
I agree though. T decisionmaking locks you in more and is harder. P is more adaptable than T, and Z is more adaptable than P. The less adaptable your unit composition the more versatile that composition needs to be. Swapping addons should help with this a little?
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this is a cool observation but dont forget that zerg makes all their units at same place
so its likedo i use larva for army or drones???
its kinda similar and could also be taken into account.
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I enjoyed reading your post, dkh, but I respectfully disagree. And here's why:
Each race has one special building/unit they always have to be mindful of (disregarding constant unit/worker production): Nexus (for chrono boost), Queen, or Orbital Command (and isn't OC used least frequently, energy-wise?).
Chrono: What unit/ upgrade queue do I boost?
Queen: What ability do I use?
Orbital: What ability do I use?
(And if you pick a PF upgrade over an OC, then that's the end of the decision making process on that command center.)
As far as the Terran building add-ons are concerned, this was always a key part of the Terran tech tree that goes into what build you're going to be using. There are FAR more independent Zerg and Protoss buildings in the tech tree than there are Terran ones... and each Z/P building is a "decision" in the same way it is for a Terran to build an add-on. Templar Archives, or a simple Terran add-on? Hydralisk Den, or a simple Terran add-on? Plus, the fact that you can lift/trade Terran add-ons now make it arguably EASIER to make decisions, just in case you want to make a tech switch later on. And faster? And cheaper?
I think that Terran has other problems, but I think the decision-making quantity is about even.
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I agree with others that decision making isn't necessarily bad BUT I completely agree that Terran have a lot of choices to make.
This is most obvious during TvT imo where you have so many build choices it's absurd. I don't think i've ever lost to the exact same TvT build ever. Every time you go into one you can get a different combination of things and they can each work just as well.
If this is bad or not tho is another question. I think it will make for amazing play between pros.
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On May 03 2010 23:19 dkh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 23:15 Archerofaiur wrote:
Two things
1) Decision making is not a bad thing.
2) Queen needs more decision making if anything. There are upsides to decision making, of course. Especially considering Zerg is lacking variety. I admit I focused on the downside of it. Why does a Queen need decision making though? Could you try to back up one-liners like that?
Certainly,
The intent of the macro mechanics is to make the player feel like they are managing their base. But what good is that if players dont feel like they are having fun managing there base.
A prerequisite of the player enjoying managing the base is that the player feels they are completing meaningful actions. In order for the player to feel they are completing meaningful actions the player needs to feel like they are making decisions that effect the game.
Playing Terran you feel like you are a commander choosing whether to cast MULE or scan and choosing where to use each. Playing Protoss you feel like a executer bending the powers of time and space to macro chronoboost and warp-in. Playing Zerg you DO NOT feel like a Queen managing a brood. You feel like an automation bound to repeat as task with no meaningful purpose other than to make the player return to base and click a button. And that is not fun.
Here is how superior MULEs are in terms of decision making to Spawn Larva. Similar features can be demonstrated with Chronoboost.
Energy Tension
Great tension with Scanner Sweep although admitedly Calldown Supply is probably lacking
Temporal Decision Making (When do I cast this?)
Very well done. There are many times when players will hold off on Callingdown MULEs incase they need Scanner Sweep in the near future.
Spacial Decision Making (Where do I cast this?)
Incredible due to the cast anywhere capabilities of the Orbital Command. This decision making is enhanced by mineral heterogeneity, for example some mineral patches will return 270 minerals during a MULEs life and some will return 240 depending on how far they are from the CC. Mineral heterogeneity also arises from which mineral patches have been MULE mined more than others. IT pays to spread your MULEs across different mineral patches to avoid depleting one mineral patch and therefore increases SCV saturation (which decreases intake rates longterm). Further example of heterogeneity comes from gold vs normal minerals or from island expansions vs regular expansions. Players have to wiegh risk vs benefit in all of these scenarios. Furthermore MULEs can be used to repair. Comboed with cast anywhere this makes the MULE a Scanner Sweep for repairing. Innovative uses include saving burning CCs and even field repairs of an attacking force. All of which requires good spacial casting decisions made by the player.
On May 03 2010 23:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Chrono: What unit/ upgrade queue do I boost?
Yes
Orbital: What ability do I use?
Yes
Queen: What ability do I use?
No. You want Spawn Larva. 99% of the time.
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On May 03 2010 23:24 italiangymnast wrote:
this is a cool observation but dont forget that zerg makes all their units at same place
so its likedo i use larva for army or drones???
its kinda similar and could also be taken into account.
This is a really good point that became forgotten I think. Larva management is the iconic decision-making aspect of playing Zerg, and it's not mastered easily.
For Protoss, I think deciding what units need to be made is pretty important. Terran has many versatile units: the classic marine that is cheap and attacks ground and air, reapers with cliff jumping, vikings can change form, etc. And mauraders can do well to compliment any ground force. Terran focuses more on the macro mechanics than unit choice compared to other races I think. I don't mean to say unit choice isn't important to Terran, I just mean that the macro mechanics become more important.
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Great responses so far. They keep coming in so quickly it's pretty hard for me to follow and answer.
Zerg has the big decision whether to get drones or attacking units of course. That is the main mechanic behind the race. I admit I didn't think about it in my write-up - it's probably because I was focusing on the new elements from a Brood War perspective and Starcraft 1 Zerg players are used to that specific decision.
@Archerofaiur: Your points are all valid and I agree but I don't quite see how they're relevant to your point. In fact, you contradicted yourself there (if I didn't misread your posts). You were arguing that the Queen needs the most decision making and then in the second post you end by saying "You want Spawn Larva 99% of the time"? That's exactly what I meant by saying it does not require decision making at all. Must be some kind of communication problem somewhere. :D
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On May 03 2010 23:15 Archerofaiur wrote:
2) Queen needs more decision making if anything.
This made me laugh. Nice post and all, but I think it is more about choices than decision, forgetting for a second that you can be boned if you mess up, more options is usually a good thing.
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United States5162 Posts
I don't think the decision making between each race is significantly different. The macro abilities can be used in a variety of ways for each race. Even chrono boost has the decision on which building to be used - do I increase my upgrade speed or get that colossus out earlier, get my economy up earlier or rush? Those are very important decisions, and every race has to make those. Queen with creep or larva and Terran with mule or scan.
I also disagree that tech add-ons significantly increase the decision making for Terran. If they want maruaders than there no decision but to get a tech lab, same with other units as well. The only extra decision making is if they want to make low-tech units quicker with a reactor.
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I agree that zerg doesnt have as much decision-making in their obvious macro unit (the queen) as the other races. But as italiangymnast wrote, the decision making in the early game of what to make of larvae greatly affects the game.
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Archerofaiur,
"No. You want Spawn Larva. 99% of the time."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Idra has a passion for creep tumors... and he's arguably the best foreign Zerg currently playing the beta. In fact, many people use creep tumors to increase Zerg speed and map control! I agree that Spawn Larvae is incredibly important, but I've seen other Queen abilities used to great success as well. Creep tumors are used far more often than the OC's extra supply ability too.
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Interesting. Maybe it's all subjective. Not only that some people like heavy decision making (for its strengths) and others dislike it (favoring a more straight up play maybe) but also that - apparently - everybody has their own impression of how much decision making a race requires in the first place. I conclude that from the increasing number of posts that argue that there's already an equal distribution of decision making between the races while I can tell you that, when I play Terran, I feel like I'm strapped to my chair while with Protoss it all seems to flow right. Let me clear that up with an example:
After a micro-intensive fight, let's say I let some energy build up in my Orbital Commands. I would be thinking, what do I do? Scan to look for a tech switch? MULE? Or calldown supply (which I believe to be much better than most people think). Probably a combination. With MULEs I also need to send them to good patches (which need to be localized first)...
While, in the same situation with Protoss, I would just boost my warp gates, robo facilities or starports to pump out more units or tech buildings if I was researching. BAM, not much decision necessary there for me.
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People are mis interpreting this
"Queen needs more decision making if any"
It should read "The queen needs to be given more decision making if anything"
On May 03 2010 23:38 PaleBlueDot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2010 23:15 Archerofaiur wrote:
2) Queen needs more decision making if anything. This made me laugh. Nice post and all, but I think it is more about choices than decision,
Whats the difference between choices and decisions?
On May 03 2010 23:49 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Idra has a passion for creep tumors... and he's arguably the best foreign Zerg currently playing the beta.
What percentage of the time would you say Idra chooses Creep Tumor OVER Spawn Larva?Meaning Idra has only enough energy to cast one and he chooses Creep Tumor.
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dkh,
"After a micro-intensive fight, let's say I let some energy build up in my Orbital Commands. I would be thinking, what do I do? Scan to look for a tech switch, MULE? Or calldown supply (which I believe to be much better than most people think). Probably a combination. With MULEs I also need to send them to good patches. So I'm off to finding them etc.
While, in the same situation with Protoss, I would just boost my warp gates, robo facilities or starports to pump out more units or tech buildings if I was researching. BAM, not much decision necessary there for me."
So your problem is that Terran has TOO MUCH versatility? o.O After all, the argument that Terran has too many decisions to make (which, as previously explained, I disagree with) must imply that you have too many options.
Let's break down the OC abilities:
Scan- Not much different than SC1's comsat sweep. You even get this ability faster than a Comsat Station! The alternatives for detection are Missile Turrets (same timing as in SC1), Ravens (about same timing as Science Vessels in SC1), and Ghost's EMPs (which may or may not be a total waste for detecting cloaked units...I've seen them used effectively though). The biggest problem is the lack of spider mines, which is a problem. So it's wise to have energy stored up for a scan at all times in case of emergencies.
MULE- The economy-boost, which is really really useful, and keeps you ahead of the game (or, at least, equal) as far as resources are concerned.
Extra Supply- If you keep an SCV building a Supply Depot at all times, you really shouldn't ever need this o.O I haven't seen any pro-games that utilize this as effectively or as often as the previous two abilities.
So it seems that you should, in general, always keep enough energy for an emergency scan (or two), and have the rest go towards MULEs. More specifically, if you're moving out, have enough energy for two scans (or a Raven); if you're staying in your base, then have a few turrets and enough energy for a scan. The rest can go to MULEs. And it gets much easier if you have multiple OCs. (Of course, you may want a PF if you're taking a farther expansion, in which you may have to cut the occasional MULE to save the occasional scan energy.)
I think that's pretty straightforward, to be honest. And, of course, you can modify things in game. If the opponent is clearly going cloaked units, save more energy for scans. It's common sense. Cut a MULE or two, because the opponent is wasting a LOT of resources on a dark templar rush or a banshee rush :-)
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On May 03 2010 23:37 dkh wrote:
@Archerofaiur: Your points are all valid and I agree but I don't quite see how they're relevant to your point. In fact, you contradicted yourself there (if I didn't misread your posts). You were arguing that the Queen needs the most decision making and then in the second post you end by saying "You want Spawn Larva 99% of the time"? That's exactly what I meant by saying it does not require decision making at all. Must be some kind of communication problem somewhere. :D
I think that when he first posted saying Queen needs more decision making, he meant the the queen should be changed so that her abilities require to think a bit more than simply spawning inject larva.
And great post, while I do think that the addon part wouldn't require as much decision making that you are saying (it's more related to the units choices and you said you weren't including this), because obviously if you want marauders you aren't going to put a reactor. But between reactor and standalone there is quite often a choice.
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EPT
