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On March 21 2009 11:04 fearus wrote:
For the past 6 month Bisu has been Bonjwa, this at the very most may signal his fall.
Its the law of large numbers, he was on an absurd run through the OSL - 0 losses, statistically speaking he was due for the 3-0.
Even larry bird will miss 6 three-pointers in a row if he got last 20 in.
I'll just ignore your bonjwa raving because you do it in every thread and it's a moot point.
Statistics like that only work when the outcome is you know... random. Starcraft matches are not won on the flip of the coin so your analysis doesn't make any sense at all.
There was frankly no true excuse for Bisu to get steamrolled 3-0. He's been on an absolute tear in PvT recently with only Jangbi sporting a better more dominant PvT. He simply played terrible, there is no other explanation to this 3-0 other then the fact that he played BAD... REAL bad. Unlucky for him that he decided to play BAD against an opponent that decided to play Good.
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On March 21 2009 10:58 JohnBall wrote:
Looks like we are going to have one more season WITHOUT ANY BONJWAS. Because Bisu just got OWNED, something that BONJWAS don't do.
On the other hand, maybe, this could be the starting step for a new Bonjwa, tough. If by.hero wins this OSL I am really going to become his fan.
That is....NOT going to happen.
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If Much is back in form I throw his name into the mix with Jangbi and Stork. And Hiya has a good record TvP, but even though Sea best MU isnt TvP, his level of play is surely beyond Hiya, or at least equal, well heh maybe not right now I suppose, in which case your point is still valid but I believe for a different reason.
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On March 21 2009 12:14 Jayme wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2009 11:04 fearus wrote:
For the past 6 month Bisu has been Bonjwa, this at the very most may signal his fall.
Its the law of large numbers, he was on an absurd run through the OSL - 0 losses, statistically speaking he was due for the 3-0.
Even larry bird will miss 6 three-pointers in a row if he got last 20 in. Statistics like that only work when the outcome is you know... random. Starcraft matches are not won on the flip of the coin so your analysis doesn't make any sense at all.
No, they don't work like that even when the outcome is random.
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On March 21 2009 09:28 BisuBoi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2009 06:33 Jayme wrote:On March 21 2009 06:28 Sadness wrote:On March 21 2009 04:22 BisuBoi wrote:
Bisu, on the other hand, just looked lost. He's nowhere near S-class in PvT. LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL OMFGOMFGOMFGOMFG I can´t stop laughing!!! HEUAHEAUHEUHAEUHEAUEHAUHEAUHEAUHEUAEHU Yea that comment was pretty terrible considering Bisu has the 2nd best PvT in the world only behind Jangbi. It's solid S-class, you just can't win them all. I'm going to just ignore the immature retardation of Sadness' post and respond to yours Jayme. Why do you say Bisu has 2nd best PvT? Is it just the recent hot streak he's been on that makes you think that? Sure, he beat Flash, but there were a lot of factors in that victory and it was far from being a dominating performance. And going by pure statistics, both Samsung Toss absolutely crush Bisu in terms of PvT. Jangbi's got over 70% PvT and Stork's hovering around 67%. Bisu is below 60%. Considering Stork's played even MORE games than Bisu, and just last OSL beat the SAME damn guy that just wiped the floor with Bisu's face, in the finals no less. I don't think it's a stretch to say Stork's got a better PvT. (And he won in a very dominating fashion. The two games he lost were build order losses where the opponent just plain read his strategy and raped). There's a reason for distinguishing between A-class and S-class. Only so many players can be S-class, and right now, Bisu is not one of them. It's just like saying Zero has great ZvZ, but he's not S-Class. Only JD and Lux are.
That is...such a horrific use of statistics. It just...it's just so illogical. Why would you use stats dating back to the beginning of his career to make arguments about what level he's at now? Bisu is so, *so* much better than he was when he beat Savior or even when he won his 2nd MSL. His APM is so much higher now than back then, and his micro and game sense have advanced so much more. You have to look at a player's recent stats, like their last 5 or 6 months of play, to determine their current skills. He's played against and beaten a ton of *solid* to *really good* TvPers recently (I think someone said 21-3 before yesterday?). Just comparing him to other Protoss players, with their lower APMs, especially Stork with his lowly 280 APM, they basically watch Bisu in awe. They can't do what he can do in terms of multitasking and control because they don't have the speed. The only one who compares is Jangbi, whose APM BTW shoots through the sky when he's about to storm (according to an interview with Stork posted on TL recently).
One horrible day of utter failure doesn't mean anything when it comes to his PvT MU, just like that one horrible day when he was first eliminated from the OSL said nothing about his PvZ MU. It's interesting because had he lost say 3-2, you could argue he played his best and still lost. But being rolled 3-0 like that requires a failure of preposterous magnitude.
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fucking starcraft never gives fans a finals we want
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what about that Jaedong vs Flash final in GOMTV classics S1 lol
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On March 21 2009 12:07 Infinity.SkyLark wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2009 09:28 BisuBoi wrote:On March 21 2009 06:33 Jayme wrote:On March 21 2009 06:28 Sadness wrote:On March 21 2009 04:22 BisuBoi wrote:
Bisu, on the other hand, just looked lost. He's nowhere near S-class in PvT. LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL OMFGOMFGOMFGOMFG I can´t stop laughing!!! HEUAHEAUHEUHAEUHEAUEHAUHEAUHEAUHEUAEHU Yea that comment was pretty terrible considering Bisu has the 2nd best PvT in the world only behind Jangbi. It's solid S-class, you just can't win them all. I'm going to just ignore the immature retardation of Sadness' post and respond to yours Jayme. Why do you say Bisu has 2nd best PvT? Is it just the recent hot streak he's been on that makes you think that? Sure, he beat Flash, but there were a lot of factors in that victory and it was far from being a dominating performance. And going by pure statistics, both Samsung Toss absolutely crush Bisu in terms of PvT. Jangbi's got over 70% PvT and Stork's hovering around 67%. Bisu is below 60%. Considering Stork's played even MORE games than Bisu, and just last OSL beat the SAME damn guy that just wiped the floor with Bisu's face, in the finals no less. I don't think it's a stretch to say Stork's got a better PvT. (And he won in a very dominating fashion. The two games he lost were build order losses where the opponent just plain read his strategy and raped). There's a reason for distinguishing between A-class and S-class. Only so many players can be S-class, and right now, Bisu is not one of them. It's just like saying Zero has great ZvZ, but he's not S-Class. Only JD and Lux are. first of all, you might want to go here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=3398¤tpage=90Secondly, I think that Sadness' post wasn't all retarded, I also loled when I read what he quoted. Third, yes I agree on your point that Bisu is no where near Stork or JangBi in PvT, but there's a hole in your argument. You used the recent Fantasy-Bisu game and compared it to the last finals where you claim that Stork Dominated. Well, the game on Plasma wasn't a Build Order win, its a pure genius win. Of course FE on plasma is safe cuz of the eggs and Fantasy knew that, he used the barracks hop to win the game. Using Fantasy as a comparison for Bisu and Stork's PvT is unfair, since the last time Stork and Fantasy played was last OSL Finals, surely, Fantasy has improved. If we use recent games to analyze Storks PvT, it's also not that solid if we base it on his recent series against ForGG, sure he won but it was rather a shaky performance.
I dno, I think the game on Plasma was hardcore a BO win. Not in the sense of like 14 CC vs a 4pool, but it's quite obvious his build was tailored perfectly to counter Stork's fast expo. It wasn't like Stork got out micro/macroed or lost in some kind of slow grinding fashion. He wasn't expecting the dropship play or the egg exploit and it fucking raped him. I'm no expert here, but can anyone explain why it wasn't a BO win?
And I think you bring up a good point about Stork being somewhat shaky vs ForGG, but I also think it could be viewed from a different perspective. His shakiness in the games had everything to do with his control, not his knowledge or strategy. He fucking RAPED ForGG in the metagame. Hands down. The only thing shaky was his micro. And that's a matter of hours training. Stork said himself that he's been goofing off and not practicing. He also played ForGG the night after he played JD. Obv he went in there with very little training time, and he pulled a 3-0 rape on someone who's rocketed to KTF's starting lineup only days after joining the team. I think that says a lot about Stork's PvT. And all of it good. Only Stork has made ForGG's PvT look bad.
Bisu on the other hand... His losses were due to such a vast array of factors (all of them, other than Fantasy's godly harass defense, within his control) that it's pointless to even list them. He lost the metagame. He lost the harass game. These are supposed to be his fortes. And this is when he's supposed to be at his peak? Stork's acknowledged that he's going through a semi-slump and just hasn't been focusing, and even so, he's 28-7 in his last 35 games PvT. That's not far off from 21-4. And a lot of those games were semis and finals.
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On March 21 2009 12:54 CDRdude wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2009 12:14 Jayme wrote:On March 21 2009 11:04 fearus wrote:
For the past 6 month Bisu has been Bonjwa, this at the very most may signal his fall.
Its the law of large numbers, he was on an absurd run through the OSL - 0 losses, statistically speaking he was due for the 3-0.
Even larry bird will miss 6 three-pointers in a row if he got last 20 in. Statistics like that only work when the outcome is you know... random. Starcraft matches are not won on the flip of the coin so your analysis doesn't make any sense at all. No, they don't work like that even when the outcome is random.
Yeah... its really scary that someone thinks probability works in this way. I thought most people on TeamLiquid were actually quite intelligent.
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On March 21 2009 13:52 BisuBoi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2009 12:07 Infinity.SkyLark wrote:On March 21 2009 09:28 BisuBoi wrote:On March 21 2009 06:33 Jayme wrote:On March 21 2009 06:28 Sadness wrote:On March 21 2009 04:22 BisuBoi wrote:
Bisu, on the other hand, just looked lost. He's nowhere near S-class in PvT. LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL OMFGOMFGOMFGOMFG I can´t stop laughing!!! HEUAHEAUHEUHAEUHEAUEHAUHEAUHEAUHEUAEHU Yea that comment was pretty terrible considering Bisu has the 2nd best PvT in the world only behind Jangbi. It's solid S-class, you just can't win them all. I'm going to just ignore the immature retardation of Sadness' post and respond to yours Jayme. Why do you say Bisu has 2nd best PvT? Is it just the recent hot streak he's been on that makes you think that? Sure, he beat Flash, but there were a lot of factors in that victory and it was far from being a dominating performance. And going by pure statistics, both Samsung Toss absolutely crush Bisu in terms of PvT. Jangbi's got over 70% PvT and Stork's hovering around 67%. Bisu is below 60%. Considering Stork's played even MORE games than Bisu, and just last OSL beat the SAME damn guy that just wiped the floor with Bisu's face, in the finals no less. I don't think it's a stretch to say Stork's got a better PvT. (And he won in a very dominating fashion. The two games he lost were build order losses where the opponent just plain read his strategy and raped). There's a reason for distinguishing between A-class and S-class. Only so many players can be S-class, and right now, Bisu is not one of them. It's just like saying Zero has great ZvZ, but he's not S-Class. Only JD and Lux are. first of all, you might want to go here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=3398¤tpage=90Secondly, I think that Sadness' post wasn't all retarded, I also loled when I read what he quoted. Third, yes I agree on your point that Bisu is no where near Stork or JangBi in PvT, but there's a hole in your argument. You used the recent Fantasy-Bisu game and compared it to the last finals where you claim that Stork Dominated. Well, the game on Plasma wasn't a Build Order win, its a pure genius win. Of course FE on plasma is safe cuz of the eggs and Fantasy knew that, he used the barracks hop to win the game. Using Fantasy as a comparison for Bisu and Stork's PvT is unfair, since the last time Stork and Fantasy played was last OSL Finals, surely, Fantasy has improved. If we use recent games to analyze Storks PvT, it's also not that solid if we base it on his recent series against ForGG, sure he won but it was rather a shaky performance. I dno, I think the game on Plasma was hardcore a BO win. Not in the sense of like 14 CC vs a 4pool, but it's quite obvious his build was tailored perfectly to counter Stork's fast expo. It wasn't like Stork got out micro/macroed or lost in some kind of slow grinding fashion. He wasn't expecting the dropship play or the egg exploit and it fucking raped him. I'm no expert here, but can anyone explain why it wasn't a BO win? And I think you bring up a good point about Stork being somewhat shaky vs ForGG, but I also think it could be viewed from a different perspective. His shakiness in the games had everything to do with his control, not his knowledge or strategy. He fucking RAPED ForGG in the metagame. Hands down. The only thing shaky was his micro. And that's a matter of hours training. Stork said himself that he's been goofing off and not practicing. He also played ForGG the night after he played JD. Obv he went in there with very little training time, and he pulled a 3-0 rape on someone who's rocketed to KTF's starting lineup only days after joining the team. I think that says a lot about Stork's PvT. And all of it good. Only Stork has made ForGG's PvT look bad. Bisu on the other hand... His losses were due to such a vast array of factors (all of them, other than Fantasy's godly harass defense, within his control) that it's pointless to even list them. He lost the metagame. He lost the harass game. These are supposed to be his fortes. And this is when he's supposed to be at his peak? Stork's acknowledged that he's going through a semi-slump and just hasn't been focusing, and even so, he's 28-7 in his last 35 games PvT. That's not far off from 21-4. And a lot of those games were semis and finals.
Hmm, yeah I think the game on plasma was a BO win + Genius, cuz 2 fact speed vults + mine totally own 14 nex or 1 gate FE. Anyway, Fantasy won, and a victory is a victory.
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On March 21 2009 11:04 fearus wrote:
For the past 6 month Bisu has been Bonjwa, this at the very most may signal his fall.
Its the law of large numbers, he was on an absurd run through the OSL - 0 losses, statistically speaking he was due for the 3-0.
Even larry bird will miss 6 three-pointers in a row if he got last 20 in.
He didn't have 0 losses this OSL, he had 2.
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On March 21 2009 12:54 CDRdude wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2009 12:14 Jayme wrote:On March 21 2009 11:04 fearus wrote:
For the past 6 month Bisu has been Bonjwa, this at the very most may signal his fall.
Its the law of large numbers, he was on an absurd run through the OSL - 0 losses, statistically speaking he was due for the 3-0.
Even larry bird will miss 6 three-pointers in a row if he got last 20 in. Statistics like that only work when the outcome is you know... random. Starcraft matches are not won on the flip of the coin so your analysis doesn't make any sense at all. No, they don't work like that even when the outcome is random.
I know what I said sounded uh.. stupid but it sounded okay in my head when I said it. After 4 semester of statistics I like to think I have some sort of idea of what im trying to say but yea, MY BAD.
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On March 21 2009 11:04 fearus wrote:
For the past 6 month Bisu has been Bonjwa, this at the very most may signal his fall.
Its the law of large numbers, he was on an absurd run through the OSL - 0 losses, statistically speaking he was due for the 3-0.
Even larry bird will miss 6 three-pointers in a row if he got last 20 in.
Yes, he had such a perfect run until he dropped out. The first time.. Then he dropped out again.. Second time.From the same tournament.. What a great run..
Can you stop with this Bonjwa bu*****, even Bisu himself said he doesnt care about that status, what else there needs to be done for people like you to realize he was never one, and probably never will be..
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Fearus gives Bisu fans a bad name everywhere -_-;
If by.Hero wins, there will such a terrible uproar everywhere LOL
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
Just watched youtube vids, Fantasy did great, wow. He's the most interesting terran to watch for me.
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I actually have to agree with people who say the finals have now become interesting.
Jaedong and Bisu are very close in skill levels, but the map pool VERY HEAVILY favors Zerg in ZvPs. A Bisu vs. Jaedong finals would've resulted in Jaedong running all over Bisu. And in the rare chance by.hero would've beaten Jaedong, we all know how many times by.hero has beaten Bisu, so that would've been another one sided rape.
But now we have a Terran going into the finals. One who revitalized and reinvented TvZ mech play, no less.
I honestly think fantasy winning over Bisu will make a far more interesting finals set than Bisu getting chewed up by the king of Zerg or his achilles heel.
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Fantasy fuck yeah. I was rooting for him. Bisu? Pff, you time is OVER.
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On March 21 2009 21:47 Kyo Yuy wrote:
I actually have to agree with people who say the finals have now become interesting.
Jaedong and Bisu are very close in skill levels, but the map pool VERY HEAVILY favors Zerg in ZvPs. A Bisu vs. Jaedong finals would've resulted in Jaedong running all over Bisu. And in the rare chance by.hero would've beaten Jaedong, we all know how many times by.hero has beaten Bisu, so that would've been another one sided rape.
But now we have a Terran going into the finals. One who revitalized and reinvented TvZ mech play, no less.
I honestly think fantasy winning over Bisu will make a far more interesting finals set than Bisu getting chewed up by the king of Zerg or his achilles heel.
Jaedong run over Bisu? Are you kidding? The map pool during the GOM TV Bo5 had zerg favored maps. Bisu almost won that series, minus an absolute fail at his ramp.
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i predict
fantasy > jaedong
fantasy < by.hero
but im not sure who wins the zvz
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On March 21 2009 23:31 latent wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2009 21:47 Kyo Yuy wrote:
I actually have to agree with people who say the finals have now become interesting.
Jaedong and Bisu are very close in skill levels, but the map pool VERY HEAVILY favors Zerg in ZvPs. A Bisu vs. Jaedong finals would've resulted in Jaedong running all over Bisu. And in the rare chance by.hero would've beaten Jaedong, we all know how many times by.hero has beaten Bisu, so that would've been another one sided rape.
But now we have a Terran going into the finals. One who revitalized and reinvented TvZ mech play, no less.
I honestly think fantasy winning over Bisu will make a far more interesting finals set than Bisu getting chewed up by the king of Zerg or his achilles heel. Jaedong run over Bisu? Are you kidding? The map pool during the GOM TV Bo5 had zerg favored maps. Bisu almost won that series, minus an absolute fail at his ramp.
The only really zerg favored map in that set was Andromeda, and even that is MUCH better than Tears of the Moon. Tears of the Moon is hell for Protoss against Zerg, and when your opponent is Jaedong and you've lost to inferior Zergs, you better pray for a miracle.
Sin Chupung Ryeong and Return of the King aren't very fun for PvZ either. And before you mention that Return of the King is 6-9 ZvP, I suggest you actually try playing that map before you come to the conclusion that it's protoss favored. With two entrances leading into the natural, it is so easy for zerg to flank and harass you it's not even funny.
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EPT
