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On March 21 2009 09:34 Frits wrote:
Funny how someone who calls himself BisuBoi is argueing that Bisu isn't S-class PvT. (Which he very very very obviously is and only a complete idiot wouldn't agree on.)
Go ahead and call me names if it's what you feel like doing. I've got my opinion and you've got yours. Any time you want to climb down from that pedestal of yours and debate why you hold your opinion, I'd be glad to listen. Bisu's PvZ and PvP are sublime. His PvT not so much. Or am I just supposed to act like a rabid frothing fanboy? I thought people were tired of seeing that kind of behavior.
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well BisuBoi
u bring up some interesting points
although the stats are against Bisu
most still consider him S-class due to his success
Stork and Jangbi are both awesome players, but they have not had as much success as Bisu
but other than that
i would still put Bisu in S-class, not A-class
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I just felt like Bisu could have a-moved fantasys base on tears of the moon after he killed the initial attack. Fantasy was playing really risky not laying mines outside his base but rather roaming around with vults on the map...
Anyway well played fantasy. Game on Return of the King was really wierd suddenly he decided to add 2 CC, you're sucha good harasser.
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On March 21 2009 08:25 latent wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2009 01:50 IdrA wrote:On March 21 2009 00:41 Mooncat wrote:On March 21 2009 00:26 IdrA wrote:On March 21 2009 00:08 Mooncat wrote:On March 20 2009 23:50 IdrA wrote:
ya given the amount that he invested in it, 4 zeals 4 goons and a reaver, and the fact that fantasy opened fd and lost the tank and all the marines, the harass really should have done significant damage. he got a few tanks and forced scvs to pull, but really he didnt do any meaningful damage.
arbiter wasnt a bad choice. its a low resource map thats set up very well for timing pushes. that means terrans 99% gonna timing push and that if you break it you're 99% gonna win. expanding isnt the way to break pushes. he was too far behind to hold the push no matter what he did, but arbiter was his best bet. (just going 2 base 6 gate would be worthless since fantasy would see it and just not push, arbiter forces a reaction and tricks terran into thinking it widens the timing window) Didn't do any meaningful damage? Are you kidding me? Fantasy had to defend with his SCVs and lost AT LEAST half of them in the process. In addition he lost at least 2-3 tanks, a lot of mining time, and some minor stuff. If I remember correctly there was also a reaver shot that killed another couple of SCVs later on. How can you call that anything but meaningful damage? ? bisu spent 4 zeals and 4 goons to get that handful of tanks and the scv mining time. bisus expo started after his harass was cleared. he basically needed to kill a whole mineral line of scvs to have done meaningful damage. the zeal goon drop taking out tanks was only beneficial if it allowed the reaver to do damage. it didnt. when you have a full 2 base economy vs a probe cut 1 base economy you can replace your army much quicker than your opponent. and no he didnt lose half his scvs in the process, just look at his mineral lines after he stabilizes. Watch Jon747's youtube VOD. Between about 9:05 and 9:18 you can clearly see how many SCVs are dying to the goons and zealots. At 9:18 you can also get a glimpse at fantasy's mineral line. There's only a skeleton crew of SCVs mining, with basically no additional SCVs from the "defense force" left to resume mining. The next glance you get at the mineral line is at 11:12, where the SCV count STILL doesn't look like it's supposed to. Only a few seconds later Bisu gets off a reaver shot killing another 5 SCVs. he did get more scvs than i thought but fantasy was still massively ahead once he put down the reaver harass, they had equivalent supplies by the time bisu's exp was up (protoss outa be significantly ahead in supply at that point) and they were on equal bases. you're underestimating just how much damage bisu had to do to make his investment worthwhile, and he didnt do that much. Yeah actually I think Bisu didn't do *quite* enough damage. But by destroying those tanks, along with about 13+ SCVs, he effectively slowed Fantasy's push a great deal. Those early tanks are extremely important. The thing that bothers me though is that his game sense seemed just a tad off. He should have realized the natural was wide open for a reaver drop, but he didn't even fly his shuttle there to check. He wasted several minutes flying around the main, only to drop right onto a mine. On the other hand he could have just skipped the reaver tech and just expand asap. That would have put him at a much larger advantage. Then again I think that's simply easier to see in retrospect. Probably he had planned from the beginning to go for a reaver and double shuttle attack.
*quite* enough?
it was equal supplies and equal bases after he stabilized. thats pretty much game over for the p.
ya losing tanks delays a push, but losing 4 zeals and 4 goons and a reaver (it was red health so it becomes useless for push breaking) makes it alot harder to break a push.
fantasy called it a failed allin himself in his interview.
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On March 21 2009 09:36 BisuBoi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2009 09:34 Frits wrote:
Funny how someone who calls himself BisuBoi is argueing that Bisu isn't S-class PvT. (Which he very very very obviously is and only a complete idiot wouldn't agree on.) Go ahead and call me names if it's what you feel like doing. I've got my opinion and you've got yours. Any time you want to climb down from that pedestal of yours and debate why you hold your opinion, I'd be glad to listen. Bisu's PvZ and PvP are sublime. His PvT not so much. Or am I just supposed to act like a rabid frothing fanboy? I thought people were tired of seeing that kind of behavior.
I haven't followed the whole discussion but Bisu is definately S-Class protoss vs terran.
Before fantasy he went 21-3 vs terrans...
Thats the score i get from bashing iccupnoobs on low levels... seriously..
Just by taking a brief look at his recent results states the fact that he's S-class vs all matchups.
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On March 21 2009 09:40 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2009 08:25 latent wrote:On March 21 2009 01:50 IdrA wrote:On March 21 2009 00:41 Mooncat wrote:On March 21 2009 00:26 IdrA wrote:On March 21 2009 00:08 Mooncat wrote:On March 20 2009 23:50 IdrA wrote:
ya given the amount that he invested in it, 4 zeals 4 goons and a reaver, and the fact that fantasy opened fd and lost the tank and all the marines, the harass really should have done significant damage. he got a few tanks and forced scvs to pull, but really he didnt do any meaningful damage.
arbiter wasnt a bad choice. its a low resource map thats set up very well for timing pushes. that means terrans 99% gonna timing push and that if you break it you're 99% gonna win. expanding isnt the way to break pushes. he was too far behind to hold the push no matter what he did, but arbiter was his best bet. (just going 2 base 6 gate would be worthless since fantasy would see it and just not push, arbiter forces a reaction and tricks terran into thinking it widens the timing window) Didn't do any meaningful damage? Are you kidding me? Fantasy had to defend with his SCVs and lost AT LEAST half of them in the process. In addition he lost at least 2-3 tanks, a lot of mining time, and some minor stuff. If I remember correctly there was also a reaver shot that killed another couple of SCVs later on. How can you call that anything but meaningful damage? ? bisu spent 4 zeals and 4 goons to get that handful of tanks and the scv mining time. bisus expo started after his harass was cleared. he basically needed to kill a whole mineral line of scvs to have done meaningful damage. the zeal goon drop taking out tanks was only beneficial if it allowed the reaver to do damage. it didnt. when you have a full 2 base economy vs a probe cut 1 base economy you can replace your army much quicker than your opponent. and no he didnt lose half his scvs in the process, just look at his mineral lines after he stabilizes. Watch Jon747's youtube VOD. Between about 9:05 and 9:18 you can clearly see how many SCVs are dying to the goons and zealots. At 9:18 you can also get a glimpse at fantasy's mineral line. There's only a skeleton crew of SCVs mining, with basically no additional SCVs from the "defense force" left to resume mining. The next glance you get at the mineral line is at 11:12, where the SCV count STILL doesn't look like it's supposed to. Only a few seconds later Bisu gets off a reaver shot killing another 5 SCVs. he did get more scvs than i thought but fantasy was still massively ahead once he put down the reaver harass, they had equivalent supplies by the time bisu's exp was up (protoss outa be significantly ahead in supply at that point) and they were on equal bases. you're underestimating just how much damage bisu had to do to make his investment worthwhile, and he didnt do that much. Yeah actually I think Bisu didn't do *quite* enough damage. But by destroying those tanks, along with about 13+ SCVs, he effectively slowed Fantasy's push a great deal. Those early tanks are extremely important. The thing that bothers me though is that his game sense seemed just a tad off. He should have realized the natural was wide open for a reaver drop, but he didn't even fly his shuttle there to check. He wasted several minutes flying around the main, only to drop right onto a mine. On the other hand he could have just skipped the reaver tech and just expand asap. That would have put him at a much larger advantage. Then again I think that's simply easier to see in retrospect. Probably he had planned from the beginning to go for a reaver and double shuttle attack. *quite* enough? it was equal supplies and equal bases after he stabilized. thats pretty much game over for the p. ya losing tanks delays a push, but losing 4 zeals and 4 goons and a reaver (it was red health so it becomes useless for push breaking) makes it alot harder to break a push. fantasy called it a failed allin himself in his interview.
I felt like Bisu didn't read that game so well...
He had planned what to do before the game and stuck to it even when other things opened up.
After destroying that first attack the way he did he should have used the first two zealots to clear mines in front and just attack terrans natural.
There was no way fantasy would have siegemode by then...
Could be wrong here though i gotta see them one more time, im sleepy and my memory might fool me.
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On March 21 2009 09:36 TheAZNChineseTiger wrote:
well BisuBoi
u bring up some interesting points
although the stats are against Bisu
most still consider him S-class due to his success
Stork and Jangbi are both awesome players, but they have not had as much success as Bisu
but other than that
i would still put Bisu in S-class, not A-class
The problem I had with Bisu this series was he HAD the advantage so many times in game 2 and 3, yet still lost the games? That's not something an S-class player does. S-class means they defy the odds. They come back from ridiculous deficits to win a game, or they come into a BoX series and just manhandle bitches. Stork did that to Fantasy. Even though the score came down 3-2, Fantasy got savaged. That first game was such a horrible mindfuck with the proxy gate w/ the 2nd gate wall-in. Then game 2 with the just plain UNGODLY DT harassment. That was jaw-dropping. Like there's no other way to describe it. He took something that should have been minimally damaging, and turned it into a bloody nightmare. That's what S-class players do.
Bisu in this series had none of that. His 2-base carriers was ill advised in the first place, even then he had a chance, but his carrier control and usage was just plain bad. I watched him move in against that first turret and one goliath, letting the turret shoot at his carrier the entire time, taking a chunk off its hp. Then game 2, he had the BO advantage. He went double speed shuttle while Fantasy didn't even have an engineering bay!! And had a built wraith that just sat there idling!? And Bisu got in there for MAJOR damage. How the hell can anyone say Bisu's play was S-class when he let an advantage like that slip away? Because of the hidden expo? Man, Fantasy had a hidden expo up in game 5 vs Stork too, you didn't see that win the game for him.
And then game 3. That elevator attack looked a lot like what Stork did to ForGG. Except Stork WON. What did Bisu do? Can anyone say the elevator attack wasn't a complete success? Rapeage of every tank Fantasy had, numerous SCV kills, all for what? 4 zeals, 4 goons? How can you call someone S-class when the strats they planned for the games WORKED and then they can't seal the deal? Yes, Fantasy played well, with some insane scarab dodges, uncannily intelligent play with the hidden expo and just straight up abusive vult/dropship harassment, but he did the SAME shit to Stork. Then LOST.
Come on guys, I need a more persuasive argument than Bisu is S-class because it's common knowledge.
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Bisuboi he's S-class coz he wen't 21-3 in his recent PvT games.
I know it's a short argument, but I'm tired and can't go through all those games, records like this kinda speak for themselves.
Today his game wasn't that good though, you are correct.
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On March 21 2009 09:52 StylishVODs wrote:
Bisuboi he's S-class coz he wen't 21-3 in his recent PvT games.
Today his game wasn't that good though, you are correct.
I guess that makes sense but the fact that a lot of those wins come from FBH, Hwasin, and SkyHigh kind of put a damper on it for me. Hiya, Mind, and Flash are the only Terrans that stand out as notable victories to me. Leta and Sea are good Terrans but TvP is far from their biggest strengths.
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On March 21 2009 09:58 BisuBoi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2009 09:52 StylishVODs wrote:
Bisuboi he's S-class coz he wen't 21-3 in his recent PvT games.
Today his game wasn't that good though, you are correct. I guess that makes sense but the fact that a lot of those wins come from FBH, Hwasin, and SkyHigh kind of put a damper on it for me. Hiya, Mind, and Flash are the only Terrans that stand out as notable victories to me. Leta and Sea are good Terrans but TvP is far from their biggest strengths.
None of these players are bad, most of them are amongst the 10 best TvP players.
If you are so much better than these players that you beat them almost every single game i think thats a fair argument to call his pvt skill s-class...
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51324 Posts
WHY
WHYYYYYYYY
Bisu is cursed for the rest of his life to not make an OSL final.
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On March 21 2009 10:14 GTR wrote:
WHY
WHYYYYYYYY
Bisu is cursed for the rest of his life to not make an OSL final.
The Bonwja curse? :x
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Looks like we are going to have one more season WITHOUT ANY BONJWAS. Because Bisu just got OWNED, something that BONJWAS don't do.
On the other hand, maybe, this could be the starting step for a new Bonjwa, tough. If by.hero wins this OSL I am really going to become his fan.
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For the past 6 month Bisu has been Bonjwa, this at the very most may signal his fall.
Its the law of large numbers, he was on an absurd run through the OSL - 0 losses, statistically speaking he was due for the 3-0.
Even larry bird will miss 6 three-pointers in a row if he got last 20 in.
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United States1865 Posts
Hey guys!
Remember when that impressive, dominating bonjwa candidate was in the running for his first OSL final - but had to face his strong terran teammate on tough maps for his race in the RO4 in order to get there and win the title?
Remember how he...
+ Show Spoiler [sAviOr] +Did just that, beating Iris 3-2 in one of the greatest series every played - coming down to a nailbiting finish on Neo Araknoid that showcased brilliant ZvT play, so good that it actually made Rekrul say this (in fact read that whole thread - its just a ton of TL.net bigwigs raving about how brilliant his play was), sAviOr then went on to the finals, won them, and solidified his place in broodwar history as one of the greatest to ever play.
+ Show Spoiler [Bisu] +
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Oh i hope by.hero wins over JD.
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On March 21 2009 11:16 Tekin wrote:
Oh i hope by.hero wins over JD.
we can always hope. ^^
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On March 21 2009 11:09 Atrioc wrote:Hey guys! Remember when that impressive, dominating bonjwa candidate was in the running for his first OSL final - but had to face his strong terran teammate on tough maps for his race in the RO4 in order to get there and win the title? Remember how he... + Show Spoiler [sAviOr] +Did just that, beating Iris 3-2 in one of the greatest series every played - coming down to a nailbiting finish on Neo Araknoid that showcased brilliant ZvT play, so good that it actually made Rekrul say this (in fact read that whole thread - its just a ton of TL.net bigwigs raving about how brilliant his play was), sAviOr then went on to the finals, won them, and solidified his place in broodwar history as one of the greatest to ever play.
Nicely put. One thing that absolutely impresses me about Savior is his ability to overcome map difficulties. Never really liked him because I generally hate zergs, but mad respect for him.
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On March 21 2009 09:28 BisuBoi wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2009 06:33 Jayme wrote:On March 21 2009 06:28 Sadness wrote:On March 21 2009 04:22 BisuBoi wrote:
Bisu, on the other hand, just looked lost. He's nowhere near S-class in PvT. LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL OMFGOMFGOMFGOMFG I can´t stop laughing!!! HEUAHEAUHEUHAEUHEAUEHAUHEAUHEAUHEUAEHU Yea that comment was pretty terrible considering Bisu has the 2nd best PvT in the world only behind Jangbi. It's solid S-class, you just can't win them all. I'm going to just ignore the immature retardation of Sadness' post and respond to yours Jayme. Why do you say Bisu has 2nd best PvT? Is it just the recent hot streak he's been on that makes you think that? Sure, he beat Flash, but there were a lot of factors in that victory and it was far from being a dominating performance. And going by pure statistics, both Samsung Toss absolutely crush Bisu in terms of PvT. Jangbi's got over 70% PvT and Stork's hovering around 67%. Bisu is below 60%. Considering Stork's played even MORE games than Bisu, and just last OSL beat the SAME damn guy that just wiped the floor with Bisu's face, in the finals no less. I don't think it's a stretch to say Stork's got a better PvT. (And he won in a very dominating fashion. The two games he lost were build order losses where the opponent just plain read his strategy and raped). There's a reason for distinguishing between A-class and S-class. Only so many players can be S-class, and right now, Bisu is not one of them. It's just like saying Zero has great ZvZ, but he's not S-Class. Only JD and Lux are.
first of all, you might want to go here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=3398¤tpage=90
Secondly, I think that Sadness' post wasn't all retarded, I also loled when I read what he quoted.
Third, yes I agree on your point that Bisu is no where near Stork or JangBi in PvT, but there's a hole in your argument. You used the recent Fantasy-Bisu game and compared it to the last finals where you claim that Stork Dominated. Well, the game on Plasma wasn't a Build Order win, its a pure genius win. Of course FE on plasma is safe cuz of the eggs and Fantasy knew that, he used the barracks hop to win the game. Using Fantasy as a comparison for Bisu and Stork's PvT is unfair, since the last time Stork and Fantasy played was last OSL Finals, surely, Fantasy has improved. If we use recent games to analyze Storks PvT, it's also not that solid if we base it on his recent series against ForGG, sure he won but it was rather a shaky performance.
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On March 21 2009 11:04 fearus wrote:
For the past 6 month Bisu has been Bonjwa, this at the very most may signal his fall.
Its the law of large numbers, he was on an absurd run through the OSL - 0 losses, statistically speaking he was due for the 3-0.
Even larry bird will miss 6 three-pointers in a row if he got last 20 in.
This is not how statistics works. Even if starcraft was purely random, you are just dead wrong.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.mymym.com/en/gfx/savior.champ.jpg)
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