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On July 24 2008 13:51 LosingID8 wrote:Show nested quote +LosingID8 wrote:
I predict ForGG to win the finals. People have doubted ForGG this entire tournament, but he's been upsetting people left and right. His Achilles Heel was his TvT, but in this MSL alone he beat Sea[Shield] 2-0 where he was previously 0-6 against him, and he took a Bo5 against Flash 3-1. Other than TvT, ForGG's greatest weakness is that he has very little experience in Bo5's. But the series against Flash shows that ForGG is an expert at analyzing his opponent's playstyle and preparing excellent counter-builds to exploit their tendencies. This is especially relevant as ForGG and Jaedong are teammates. If he was able to destroy Flash so easily, who's to say he can't do the same with Jaedong? My prediction: ForGG 3 - 2 Jaedong.
I guess you could apply some of the arguments here to Jaedong.
"...shows that ForGG is an expert at analyzing his opponent's playstyle and preparing excellent counter-builds to exploit their tendencies. This is especially relevant as ForGG and Jaedong are teammates."
You make it sound like Jaedong has no idea what ForGG's up to, and ForGG knows what Jaedong is going to do. Seriously, come on. Jaedong will probably have played ForGG before, he should know how ForGG plays too. >.>
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I feel that this match is going to be more uncertain even though Jaedong is one of the participants due to the lack of ZvT from Jaedong and TvZ from ForGG in recent times. I don't store too much from Jaedong's set against Hwasin since Hwasin made mistakes in that series and seems to have a little confidence problem. Jaedong will need a few creative builds, especially on Tiamat, to totally own this series.
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iNfeRnaL
Germany1908 Posts
For some reason I think that's not going to stop Jaedong.
Come on, the maps vs Hwasin weren't exactly comfortable for Zerg either were they?
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Well, Hwasin didn't play exactly like his usual Sniper-style. I
n game 1, Jaedong had some of the worst muta-micro, it hurt me.
In game 2, besides the fact that Hwasin didn't go for the hatchery and got owned by stop lurkers early on, there were some instances where Hwasin actually moved his MM forces into lurkers, moved, not attack-moved. And also some cases where he attacked 5 lurkers with 18 MMs with no micro. He just tossed groups of units away here.
Game 3, after Jaedong scouted his base, a D player on iCCup could've won given Hwasin's defense.
Game 4, Jaedong raped, no excuses there.
The set, for the most part, was Hwasin's loss, except in the last game.
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On July 25 2008 08:28 OmgIRok wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2008 13:51 LosingID8 wrote:LosingID8 wrote:
I predict ForGG to win the finals. People have doubted ForGG this entire tournament, but he's been upsetting people left and right. His Achilles Heel was his TvT, but in this MSL alone he beat Sea[Shield] 2-0 where he was previously 0-6 against him, and he took a Bo5 against Flash 3-1. Other than TvT, ForGG's greatest weakness is that he has very little experience in Bo5's. But the series against Flash shows that ForGG is an expert at analyzing his opponent's playstyle and preparing excellent counter-builds to exploit their tendencies. This is especially relevant as ForGG and Jaedong are teammates. If he was able to destroy Flash so easily, who's to say he can't do the same with Jaedong? My prediction: ForGG 3 - 2 Jaedong. I guess you could apply some of the arguments here to Jaedong. "...shows that ForGG is an expert at analyzing his opponent's playstyle and preparing excellent counter-builds to exploit their tendencies. This is especially relevant as ForGG and Jaedong are teammates." You make it sound like Jaedong has no idea what ForGG's up to, and ForGG knows what Jaedong is going to do. Seriously, come on. Jaedong will probably have played ForGG before, he should know how ForGG plays too. >.>
I kinda agree here, a lot of people are saying that forGG may have an edge because they are teammates and knows jaedong gameplay, but so is JD, he should know forGG's weaknesses and should know the kind of gamestyle he plays
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On July 25 2008 00:52 ForAdun wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2008 00:28 Letmelose wrote:On July 24 2008 18:50 ForAdun wrote:
Imo the only map that favors terran a little bit is Tiamat.
Colosseum 5-2 - This could easily be a 4-3 so don't count your chickens before they hatch. Actually I can't see ForGG winning on this map, imo it's an even map that totally fits Jaedong's style.
Othello 15-9 - Very even stats actually, I remember Arcadia which seemed super-imba in the past favoring zerg over terran, then starting to even out until it was almost 50/50. I think Jaedong will lose though unless he can handle the drop-heavy late game.
Tiamat 4-0 - Very short of games but those that have been played looked convincing. This one will most likely destroy Jaedong but since he knows how bad his chances are on Tiamat he will probably do some really strong timing build like 2 hatch muta/lurk or 2 base hive which is very hard to handle.
Athena 2-2 - No doubt, we'll see a great game on this map just like Jaedong vs Much was. I think ForGG will type out in the late game.
So if everything goes right it should end 3-2 in anyone's favor. I believe ForGG has good chances if he can abuse the Tiamat imbalance but if not he's gonna cry like Boxer when he lost to oov. This season's map pool is AWEFUL for zergs. There's more to map statistics than looking at the scores between races. I tend to focus more on the number of appearances for each races if the map is used in the proleague. Just a brief look at the number of appearances would tell you that zerg players wanted to stay the HELL away from these maps, and the select few who tried usually weren't rewarded for their bravery. Colosseum and Othello were the main reasons for this season of the proleague becoming a non-stop TvT fest. There's a reason why managers kept sending terran players on these maps when people were screaming for some innovation with the line-ups. Sure some zergs managed to win on these maps, but these handful of victories are next to meaningless in the bigger scheme of things. Yes, Jaedong can win on these maps, but no thanks to its balance. I pray for Jaedong to triump because both individual leagues having zerg winners would be so awesome, especially since zergs were basically invisible (except in team plays of course) in the proleague this season. As for the finals itself, I predict a ForGG victory. The maps scream death for zergs and ForGG knows Jaedong inside out so it'll be hard for Jaedong to outsmart ForGG. It doesn't matter how good you are if the situation calls for a miracle. If ForGG plays great in the finals, he will win no matter what. Jaedong can play great, but it'll take more than that to win the series. It'll take a miracle. And adding to all this deep analysis you also know exactly what makes these maps imbalanced for zerg? Lets see 
Imo, it is all about the bases' position. In both maps terran could turtle easily to Main-Nat-2nd Nat-Min only, which is a really tiny box and contains 4 bases and 3 gases, and in Othello you could cliff all the bases except the mains, so it gives terran further advantage imo.
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On July 25 2008 09:32 xenero wrote:
Well, Hwasin didn't play exactly like his usual Sniper-style. I
n game 1, Jaedong had some of the worst muta-micro, it hurt me.
In game 2, besides the fact that Hwasin didn't go for the hatchery and got owned by stop lurkers early on, there were some instances where Hwasin actually moved his MM forces into lurkers, moved, not attack-moved. And also some cases where he attacked 5 lurkers with 18 MMs with no micro. He just tossed groups of units away here.
Game 3, after Jaedong scouted his base, a D player on iCCup could've won given Hwasin's defense.
Game 4, Jaedong raped, no excuses there.
The set, for the most part, was Hwasin's loss, except in the last game.
Hwasin doesn't have the mental strength, he gets nervous in high stake individual games, plays much better in proleague like sea does.
It doesn't matter if he could have or should have, no matter how talented you are, it will keep you down.
No nerves = no essence of a champion.
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On July 25 2008 03:16 Februarys wrote:
I can't believe there are people here rooting for ForGG after what he did (cheese proxy every game vs Flash) to ruin our dream match of Jaedong vs Flash
Even if forGG somehow manages to beat JD in this finals, I can still see ForGG below Jaedong in Rankings just because we know that JD is a better player, have faced much more competent players and won over them, and the maps given in this final is heavily T favored
Maybe some people actually LIKE ForGG? What an idea...
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I can't believe i have to wait 1 more day for this thing . Hope it will be epic and JD winning of course ...
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On July 24 2008 21:02 Kwark wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2008 20:54 gNs.I-Jasa wrote:On July 24 2008 16:46 HaXxorIzed wrote:
A great deal of this game is really on Forgg's shoulders. Jaedong's strong gamesense and versatility in ZvT are the things Forgg is best positioned out of any of the consistent Terrans atm to counter (because of the fact they are in the same team). Jaedong has had his comeback wins and his triumphs and beat Hwasin - but this time I suspect it will be different. Forgg seems to be a lot more calculating than Hwasin, because where Hwasin tripped and fell (reading difficult opponents), Forgg has put in the effort, the study and the determination - even improving his previously imprecise and simply dire TvT to where it is now.
Right now his macromanagement is probably unequaled and his gamesense has really improved. The real question is now as to if Forgg will lift his game to the heights necessary to make this interesting. Because Jaedong will, and I personally feel if Forgg lifts his game again and keeps a clear head about it all on these maps, he will win. After all - and let's be perfectly honest about this, Forgg's entire existance is defined by always having more units than the other guy. Combine that with someone who probably knows Jaedong as no other Terran does, and Forgg is posed to take this.
With that in mind, this may well go 3:2 either way. However, if Jaedong wins I think a score of 3:1 is more likely. i think your getting the wrong idea. if works both ways. i bet you jaedong will study forgg as well. But fOrGG has shown himself to be a sniperesque targetter of weak spots whereas JD just outbeasts everyone.
why do people pretend that jaedong doesn't have these same abilities
one series where he cheeses 4x vs 14cc and wins 3 of them does not make forgg a genius who will easily slay jaedong
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i hope forgg wins with straight up play
The thing i noticed about forgg besides his oovlike macro is that his main army or hanbang rarely dies. He always retreats if he thinks hes gonna lose and makes his army bigger. Forgg vs ggplay on python and kal vs forgg on athena is what im talking about and hes pretty creative.
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feels like it going to more of a mind game then skill therrfor I find it impossible to call. But Jaedong has been in finals before and that why I will give him a slight advantage. ForGG can shock but we all know Jaedong wont.
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Hey, do you think JD is practicing with forGG for the finals? :D
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On July 25 2008 21:17 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
i hope forgg wins with straight up play
The thing i noticed about forgg besides his oovlike macro is that his main army or hanbang rarely dies. He always retreats if he thinks hes gonna lose and makes his army bigger. Forgg vs ggplay on python and kal vs forgg on athena is what im talking about and hes pretty creative.
I don't think ForGG could beat him with straight up play. Hell, probably no one can right now.
YOU CANNOT STOP THE UNSTOPABLE FORCE RAWWWR!!
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Watching Jaedong over the past few weeks, I find it very hard to pick ForGG in this matchup. Jaedong has just been a beast and I don't think anyone can really stop him right now. This series will probably go 3-1, but I definitly wouldn't mind it going 3-2.
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GO FORGG!!!
Nothing against JD, I just love rooting for the underdog. But as a BW fan, I couldn't ask for any more than a 5-setter, regardless of who the winner is.
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I hate to tell you folks, but JD did NOT look that good against Hwasin and furthermore his opponents have been choking hardcore (come on.. JD vs Lomo Game 3? Give me a break...).
JD certainly has a good shot but he's not THAT much better than ForGG and theres no reason to think this will be a 3-0 shutout noob stomp like some of you less informed fanboys seem to think. Go watch some starcraft games besides the ones where your favorite players win.
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Meh, I decided to go since my Saturday just became free. Is this place at LOOX or someplace else.
Anyone else going?
Go ForGG~
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/7259/mslfinaleditdm1.jpg)
