This will be epic for sure! It starts on the 17th of july at 18:30 Korean time. I hope you will all be in the IRC channel and be hyping like every one there. The more people the more fun!
Yaoyuan should work, with some delay to the Daum stream. Works only in Internet Explorer and requires the TVAnts plugin (download)
The games will also be watchable via the Daum player (guide). If you receive an error message, refresh the page and/or change the streaming room.
R1CH might have an great solution to watch. You can find him on the (IRC Channel).
Results
The answer to the most important question is inside the spoiler. Ofcourse the question im talking about is who will face Jaedong in the Finals of the MSL 2008. Some already posted they want Flash vs Jaedong, or they don't see fOrGG see taking even one game! I, myself, am not so sure.. I think fOrGG has an better TvT then an average Terran, but then again, Flash can't be qualified as an average Terran player.
I don't expect Forgg to take the series. However, his TvT has improved a great deal in recent months and if he's able to really get his macromanagment or a good timing push going, he should be able to take one or two games.
Flash is on the decline, forgg has the momentum...I expect 3-2 win for Flash, which will further highlight Flash's slow decline, where he make mistakes, plays in an uninspired manner etc.
If Flash plays like Flash, 3-0 rape. Unlikely though.
I think that forgg will have practiced ALOT for this match. But I think Flash will take it 3-2, also we NEED a flash vs JD final, so that JD can show that hes the best, and that noone can beat him in a bo5.
flash is so lazy with his tanks. watch forGG's tank micro vs. sizkal in ... i think game 3? and compare it to any of flash's tank movements where he doesnt use drop ships and you can see a huge difference.
i don't think it'll be as onesided as people hope. forGG's performance against sizkal was so gangster i'm gonna call an upset, even though i dont want one:
On July 16 2008 19:51 d_so wrote: flash is so lazy with his tanks. watch forGG's tank micro vs. sizkal in ... i think game 3? and compare it to any of flash's tank movements where he doesnt use drop ships and you can see a huge difference.
i don't think it'll be as onesided as people hope. forGG's performance against sizkal was so gangster i'm gonna call an upset, even though i dont want one:
3-1 forGG
That's because flash is too busy macroing literally perfectly.
Which is what ForGG tries to do but keeps getting distracted by silly things like microing his tanks;)
On July 16 2008 11:59 MadNeSs wrote: I think that forgg will have practiced ALOT for this match. But I think Flash will take it 3-2, also we NEED a flash vs JD final, so that JD can show that hes the best, and that noone can beat him in a bo5.
Flash has been practisng tvt way before forgg started pratisng for kal Flash has been pratising for hiya in gsl, lomo in msl and memory in gsl all of who he distroyed and not to mention hes only played terrans in proleauge, i think flash has practised tvt WAY more than forgg has
On July 16 2008 19:51 d_so wrote: flash is so lazy with his tanks. watch forGG's tank micro vs. sizkal in ... i think game 3? and compare it to any of flash's tank movements where he doesnt use drop ships and you can see a huge difference.
i don't think it'll be as onesided as people hope. forGG's performance against sizkal was so gangster i'm gonna call an upset, even though i dont want one:
3-1 forGG
That's because flash is too busy macroing literally perfectly.
Which is what ForGG tries to do but keeps getting distracted by silly things like microing his tanks;)
Flash's macro isn't even figuratively perfect, and if you think Flash is going to have some "perfect macro" advantage over forGG then you haven't watched enough (any) forGG matches. Flash has the edge in that he can actually micro, though.
Looking forward to this series, hopefully it'll be like 5 hour long TvT macro fests. Rooting for forGG but wouldn't mind seeing Flash win it (nor would I be terribly surprised either way).
On July 16 2008 20:56 zgl wrote: When does the match start?
At the top right corner you will see "MSL Semifinal B". Press that and than there will be a timer about how much time there is left until the event starts.
On July 16 2008 19:51 d_so wrote: flash is so lazy with his tanks. watch forGG's tank micro vs. sizkal in ... i think game 3? and compare it to any of flash's tank movements where he doesnt use drop ships and you can see a huge difference.
i don't think it'll be as onesided as people hope. forGG's performance against sizkal was so gangster i'm gonna call an upset, even though i dont want one:
3-1 forGG
That's because flash is too busy macroing literally perfectly.
Which is what ForGG tries to do but keeps getting distracted by silly things like microing his tanks;)
Flash's macro isn't even figuratively perfect, and if you think Flash is going to have some "perfect macro" advantage over forGG then you haven't watched enough (any) forGG matches. Flash has the edge in that he can actually micro, though.
Looking forward to this series, hopefully it'll be like 5 hour long TvT macro fests. Rooting for forGG but wouldn't mind seeing Flash win it (nor would I be terribly surprised either way).
Im pretty sure forgg has a better macro than flash. But having better macro doesnt make such a big difference in tvt as in tvp and tvz
On July 16 2008 19:51 d_so wrote: flash is so lazy with his tanks. watch forGG's tank micro vs. sizkal in ... i think game 3? and compare it to any of flash's tank movements where he doesnt use drop ships and you can see a huge difference.
i don't think it'll be as onesided as people hope. forGG's performance against sizkal was so gangster i'm gonna call an upset, even though i dont want one:
3-1 forGG
That's because flash is too busy macroing literally perfectly.
Which is what ForGG tries to do but keeps getting distracted by silly things like microing his tanks;)
Flash's macro isn't even figuratively perfect, and if you think Flash is going to have some "perfect macro" advantage over forGG then you haven't watched enough (any) forGG matches. Flash has the edge in that he can actually micro, though.
Looking forward to this series, hopefully it'll be like 5 hour long TvT macro fests. Rooting for forGG but wouldn't mind seeing Flash win it (nor would I be terribly surprised either way).
Im pretty sure forgg has a better macro than flash. But having better macro doesnt make such a big difference in tvt as in tvp and tvz
Forgg vs Sea on colleseum in the early stages of PL this season basically personifies forgg's tvt, as you say.
Oh well, Flash has amazing macro. As does FORGG. Of course Flash is better in every single other category of the game, but it should be amazing to see these two macro beasts go up against each other.
If Lomo took Flash to 5 games, ForGG has a decent chance of beating him. Still looking forward to Flash advancing so he could be raped by Jaedong which will finally prove that Jaedong >>> Flash.
Going to repost my lame shop for the sake of criticism! Forgive me!
After reflection, I'm not sure who I'd like to win because ForGG doesn't stand that much of a chance against Jaedong. Then again, I'd like the Flash in the pan hype to die once and for all. A ForGG win would nearly cement this! Blarlkjasdljk __ __;.
On July 17 2008 10:58 alffla wrote: why do ppl want forgg to win i cannot understand wtf
who doesnt want an epic flash vs jaednog finals????!?!?
Ugh, as much as I'd like a good series of games I don't want Flash to win, and Jaedong is meh for me. I suppose if Flash wins and the games are legendary then I'd be okay with that but I'm really skeptical ;P.
if flash has a hard time vs bubblegum, then hes going to have issues with forGG. wont be easy for flash, TvT is not very predictable, plus, theyre tied at 1-1 atm.
I agree with everyone's sentiment that this will not be easy for Flash, but he's still just a young boy full of passion and fire. I think he'll take the series based on that, though it won't be easy based on Forgg's play lately. However, if Forgg does win, I'd be much more ok with Jaedong beating Forgg than Flash, so two of three possible outcomes are alright with me ;D
I hope most of all they are excellent (but not necessarily epic in length) games and that Flash doesn't get trounced. As long as he wins or loses in close battles I won't kill myself.
Then, with Flash showing the true brutality of KTF, Nal_rA will be inspired, remember the old days, and go for a grand slam next season (GOM, OGN, MBC leagues).
On July 17 2008 13:28 Ilikestarcraft wrote: both flash and jaedong lost that fire that made them seem invincible so i rather i have a forgg and jaedong final.
i wouldnt say this about jaedong. he looks just as intense as ever; it's flash who seems to have fallen off a bit. he's a strong kid but he seems to be slumping mentally a bit.
On July 17 2008 13:09 Juicyfruit wrote: Does ForGG actually have better macro than Flash?
No, guys flash only has this to worry about he can't lose to forgg here, hes the best tvt in the world and i dont see him losing a set to someone like forgg
On July 17 2008 13:09 Juicyfruit wrote: Does ForGG actually have better macro than Flash?
No, guys flash only has this to worry about he can't lose to forgg here, hes the best tvt in the world and i dont see him losing a set to someone like forgg
Best TvT in the world dropped a game to ForGG last week. Plus he looked shaky vs Lomo.
1) ktf is my god 2) flash vs jaedong finals will be epic...it will be like new version of boxer vs yellow final (if it does become flash vs jaedong final, the entire stadium will be packed as hell)
Flash is like the only person in the world capable of standing up to the Lecaf juggernauts. Kinda reminds me of when Fischer took on the entire Soviet chess world. Anyhow, I'm really hoping Flash can take out fORGG to set up one of the most epic MSL final ever. Imagine if Flash ends up defeating Lomo, fORGG, Backho in the GSL, Jaedong, and Jaedong again in the GSL. The odds are against him, but if anyone's to become a one man demolition squad of the Lecaf team it's gonna be Flash.
I don't see why people dislike Flash. I also don't see why people think Flash is some unstoppable SC playing machine.
Flash is really good, forGG is really good, hopefully the games will be really good. Too bad KTF doesn't have reliably strong singles players to give Flash a break during the PL season, or I would be pretty sure of a Jaedong/Flash final. As it is, Flash is pretty obviously burning out- but maybe he can push forward and win over these next few weeks before getting a much-needed vacation.
But yeah... Flash has been dropping random TvT games lately, and while he's won the last few TvT series he's been in, can't really say he looked invincible in any of those series (except maybe game 3 vs. Memory, though Memory deserves some "credit" for unsieging right then).
On July 17 2008 13:09 Juicyfruit wrote: Does ForGG actually have better macro than Flash?
From the recent games i watched i think forgg and sea have the best macro right now. Flash's game vs luxury on andromeda his macro was subpar for a top pro. Flash hasnt been on top lately compared to his monster form before.
Forgg is sort of an oddball. I admit that, but his games recently have been really entertaining. Hes pretty creative. And personally i want to see a team final. Flash has a better chance though cause hes more experienced serieswise, but forgg isnt no pushover.
Jaedong's zvt also hasnt been looking that well lately. His zvp improved a lot and is looking sharp as ever and his zvz has always been really good but his zvt vs hwasin. Even though he won it was really sloppy and lackluster. But his recent game vs lomo on katrina seemed really nice. If he can play like that the finals whoever it is will be really fun.
Free from sentiment, I believe Flash is going to take this, probably 3:1. In fact who wins tonight does not matter, as we all know JD will smash any Terran in the grand final!
On July 17 2008 16:20 yayacamel wrote: Free from sentiment, I believe Flash is going to take this, probably 3:1. In fact who wins tonight does not matter, as we all know JD will smash any Terran in the grand final!
Absolutely! Neither Flash nor forGG can stop JD - he is the best (and the beast) ZvT ever.
Why do zerg fans seem so angry and hardcore? Seems like they always proclaim painful humiliating death to the competition, and if their player doesn't deliver they jump on him like rabid wolves! No offense intended, I hope I don't get zergling rushed now.
On July 17 2008 16:20 yayacamel wrote: Free from sentiment, I believe Flash is going to take this, probably 3:1. In fact who wins tonight does not matter, as we all know JD will smash any Terran in the grand final!
Absolutely! Neither Flash nor forGG can stop JD - he is the best (and the beast) ZvT ever.
gee i wonder who knocked JD out in the GSI and the last OSL
On July 17 2008 16:12 minus_human wrote: Jaedong vs Flash in the finals... would be beyond epic. It would be a need of the general human society satisfied, no matter the victor.
So with all due regret, fuck you forGG and GO FLASH! and GO HISTORIC MSL FINAL!!!!
Flash and jaedong are like the two contending bonjwas of the present. It's like a paradox that they both exist at the same time. They're first and second kespa ranks respectively. This is like the big clash of the two superpowers to finally spell the dawn of a new age to come.
On July 17 2008 16:20 yayacamel wrote: Free from sentiment, I believe Flash is going to take this, probably 3:1. In fact who wins tonight does not matter, as we all know JD will smash any Terran in the grand final!
Absolutely! Neither Flash nor forGG can stop JD - he is the best (and the beast) ZvT ever.
gee i wonder who knocked JD out in the GSI and the last OSL
Gee I wonder who won the only BO5 they have ever had between them. Gee I wonder who got 2-0ed by Luxury on maps that were 15-6 for terran going in.
On July 17 2008 17:12 zgl wrote: Flash will make it to the final and beat Jaedong 3-0 with bunker rushes. Then Jaedong can retire and become a nun.
Thats the only way Flash can hope to win so I wouldn't be surprised if he tried that exactly. Luxury has exposed Flash's inferior TvZ so you better pray that Flash brings a shopping cart filled with cheese because if he tries his generic macro turtle style vs JD he will be left utterly decimated. Assuming Flash wins to tonight, which he very well may not, the finals vs JD will be the turning point in his short lived run as all the hype and overrating by terran fanboys will coming crashing down and he will be shown as being inferior in all respects to JD.
On July 17 2008 16:31 yoshtodd wrote: Why do zerg fans seem so angry and hardcore? Seems like they always proclaim painful humiliating death to the competition, and if their player doesn't deliver they jump on him like rabid wolves! No offense intended, I hope I don't get zergling rushed now.
The name of the game is Brood War. Unless you are strong enough to make your way to the top of the Zerg food chain by demonstrating your superior control of the swarm, you will simply be culled and fed to other more hungry broods who have the potential to make it to the top.
That combined with the fact that the terran fanatics just love to pretend JD isn't the best player sc on earth and continually slag on him pretending that Flash somehow won epic TvZ macro wars when all he did was sunken busts and proxy rax.
I somehow feel it is destiny for JD and Flash to meet in both finals, so that finally JD will demonstrate to the world why there can be no question to why he is the king of sc.
Gingerkid, people don't win 2 OSL in a row, someone had to beat Flash. Saying Flash isn't good is silly, he's definitely in the top 5 as far as current BroodWar players in the world go, no matter how you cut it.
On July 17 2008 18:23 Ancestral wrote: Gingerkid, people,other than BoxeR, don't win 2 OSL in a row, someone had to beat Flash. Saying Flash isn't good is silly, he's definitely in the top 5 as far as current BroodWar players in the world go, no matter how you cut it.
To Gingerkid: what you're doing is qualifying and rationalizing. Simple fact is that Jaedong is a great player, as is Flash. Right now, Flash has the lead as he's won two tourneys over jaedong. In the end, the scoreboard's all that matters.
On July 17 2008 18:26 d_so wrote: Simple fact is that Jaedong is a great player, as is Flash. Right now, Flash has the lead as he's won two tourneys over jaedong. In the end, the scoreboard's all that matters.
BluBB!
No, no, no! People dont seem to grasp the fact how powerful Jaedong is in BO5s. Flash has never won a BO5 vs Jaedong (although they've only played one), and tbh, I dont think anyone on the planet can win a BO5 vs Jaedong (and no one has as of yet afaik). The fact that it is a BO5 is what people are pointing at, and I can't agree more, no matter who Jaedong will face he will totally destroy.
Flash is a great player, no doubt. Definitely the finals will be epic if flash wins here today (Which can be considered a pretty big chance). But he's not going to win vs Jaedong, no matter what.
I wish people would stop pointing towards the games of Flash/Lux as examples of Flash's standard play. Floating 2000 minerals is not the macromanagement Flash has displayed many times over in TvZ before.
On July 17 2008 18:40 Gretchen wrote: What does that silly "Time Attacker" on screen mean? forGG does the best timing attacks, or what?
Yeah pretty much, i dont see how though imo flash has better timing that forgg
forgg's timing/macro really stand out because theyre a level above the rest of his game. (or they were, its caught up recently) flash is insanely good at everything so it doesnt seem as special with him.
On July 17 2008 18:26 d_so wrote: Simple fact is that Jaedong is a great player, as is Flash. Right now, Flash has the lead as he's won two tourneys over jaedong. In the end, the scoreboard's all that matters.
BluBB!
No, no, no! People dont seem to grasp the fact how powerful Jaedong is in BO5s. Flash has never won a BO5 vs Jaedong (although they've only played one), and tbh, I dont think anyone on the planet can win a BO5 vs Jaedong (and no one has as of yet afaik). The fact that it is a BO5 is what people are pointing at, and I can't agree more, no matter who Jaedong will face he will totally destroy.
Flash is a great player, no doubt. Definitely the finals will be epic if flash wins here today (Which can be considered a pretty big chance). But he's not going to win vs Jaedong, no matter what.
amg. have you ever heard of "sample size"? A sample size of 1 doesnt mean anything.
Jaedong is a beast on Bo5, no doubt. But right now when money's on the line flash has won 2 and jaedong has won 1. There's nothing else to say. you can't qualify flash's victories as less meaningful or make jaedong's victory more meaningful cuz of the setup.
Guys I am the biggest JD fan out there and I still love flash ... Why? Because he is a mother fawk'n gangter. He is without a doubt number 1 or two in the world or tied for first whatever, he brought about a new age of tvp , he single handedly retired carriers. His TvZ is crazy so many damn rines/tank/sci, with great timming on this second huge blob.
I don't understand why so many JD fans hate flash,... I love him, he isn't a threat, JD without a flash would be like Iloveoov without a july or boxer without yellow ... The two of them together are pushing the game so much further then it has ever gone before ....
Flash and JD will still be top 4 in the world six months from now .... Keep the JD vs Flash finals comming ... IloveIT
ForGG double proxy fact vultures // Flash FE ForGG vultures kills decent number of SCV before Flash's Tanks clears them out. ForGG switches to Golis... LOTS OF GOLIS
Ouch! I may be rooting for fOrGG, I can hardly believe it. What a rape! I don't think it will work twice though. There must still be the Monster sleeping inside Flash. If IT awakens, fOrGG has trouble ahead.
The stream just skipped like half the game. Flash survived those vultures, forgg build a Starport. Then stream skips and game is over. WTF I wasted my time watching that.
On July 17 2008 18:53 BlackStar wrote: The stream just skipped like half the game. Flash survived those vultures, forgg build a Starport. Then stream skips and game is over. WTF I wasted my time watching that.
Flash tried to exp off 3 tanks but forgg had 6 golis out and stopped it, although they didn't fight but the cc took a lot of damage. Flash tried again with 5 tank and a goli but 10 golis stopped it and then the golis broke the ramp with a drop of golis arriving to help. For some reason flash didn't get siege.
Getting less tanks but more siege would be better. I'm sure flash can hold up the golis with scvs at his nat keeping them out of range of the tanks. He does it well enough in TvP.
Flash do a bit of harass with his wraiths, but doesn't kill much as ForGG's armory and scanner finishes quite fast. He still gets some SCV's though. Both players take their 2nd exp, ForGG loses his barracks and is moving out towards Flash's 2nd.
On July 17 2008 18:59 TomciO wrote: How Flash could have fucked up this so much? He perfectly knew what's going on and still he decided to move too far with those tanks.
ForGG breaks Flash's defense at the expo, but tanks get there in time to cause a stalemate. ForGG have positional advantage though and forces Flash to abandon the expo.
Both players exchange tanks outside of Flash's main exp, Flash the winner of that small shootout, but ForGG have eco advantage as Flash only just got his 2nd exp back up.
ForGG just made Flash waste a great part of his SCV's to break a contain, which in the end failed. Looking bad for Flash as ForGG takes 12 and have him contained.
lol forgg. When all the progamers were picking their abilities (like boxer picking the ability to use strategies nobody else even dreamed of or bisu for sick darksair multitasking) forgg just went with the simple "I want the ability to always have more units than my opponent at any given time". Working out well for him so far.
i was thinking, 'okay he's probably going to fill up those dropships once he gets close', but he had all those units on the ground AND the dropships were full :D
On July 17 2008 19:09 Kwark wrote: lol forgg. When all the progamers were picking their abilities (like boxer picking the ability to use strategies nobody else even dreamed of or bisu for sick darksair multitasking) forgg just went with the simple "I want the ability to always have more units than my opponent at any given time". Working out well for him so far.
It's not pretty or nuanced, but boy does it do the job. : p
On July 17 2008 19:09 Kwark wrote: lol forgg. When all the progamers were picking their abilities (like boxer picking the ability to use strategies nobody else even dreamed of or bisu for sick darksair multitasking) forgg just went with the simple "I want the ability to always have more units than my opponent at any given time". Working out well for him so far.
ya I call his play oOvy.
Flash's play was totally weak. I guess it was because he went for wraiths, but ForGG just attacked into miniature siege lines and harassed expos to victory.
The only reason I don't mind ForGG winning is because he is in Lecaf and teammate battles are always fun to watch.
On July 17 2008 19:10 MrHoon wrote: Honestly I think Flash is doing poorly these days because KTF is just overusing him Give the poor guy a break
ya he obviously wouldnt want to play so many games! 1-3 a week wow thats alot. How much does he play in practice? 500 a week? That's nothing compared to 3 a week though! what kind of a crazy pro wants to be used often anyway
On July 17 2008 19:09 Kwark wrote: lol forgg. When all the progamers were picking their abilities (like boxer picking the ability to use strategies nobody else even dreamed of or bisu for sick darksair multitasking) forgg just went with the simple "I want the ability to always have more units than my opponent at any given time". Working out well for him so far.
Well, it's probably easier for a macro player to learn micro than a micro player to learn macro, so overall I'd say he made the right pick.
Flash seems to be choking pretty hard now. Guess Luxury was the Bisu to his Savior. Being 0-2 down can't be helping his mindset either. Short, sweet games too. If more TvTs were like this I could get a taste for it.
Jaedong/Forgg won't be as one sided as you people seem to think, to be honest. Forgg after all, is on Jaedong's team - and he's lifted his play a great deal lately. He may yet surprise us twice.
wtf flash wtf. if youre gonna go cloak wraith then go double star. if you know ur the favorite then be careful of a rush. these things should be common sense.
On July 17 2008 19:09 Kwark wrote: lol forgg. When all the progamers were picking their abilities (like boxer picking the ability to use strategies nobody else even dreamed of or bisu for sick darksair multitasking) forgg just went with the simple "I want the ability to always have more units than my opponent at any given time". Working out well for him so far.
It's not pretty or nuanced, but boy does it do the job. : p
Yeah, but it's scary though.. His macro is insane, we all know that, but I truly think that he's developed into a better overall player in many ways during this MSL/GSI. If he keeps this curve, I think he can become toptoptop.
On July 17 2008 19:10 MrHoon wrote: Honestly I think Flash is doing poorly these days because KTF is just overusing him Give the poor guy a break
whatever it quality he had is completely gone. hopefully not for good though (and even still he's still probably 2nd best, which says something about his peak/potential next season)
Flash could probably win a straight up game, and we've already seen a comeback from 2-0... and if any Terran was gonna pull it off, it'd be Flash. But I like forGG's chances, one (more) strong timing attack or unscouted cheese build could seal up this series.
If fOrGG wins, MSL awards ceremony can take place before the finals. Jaedong will feel more relaxed wioth the gold medal already around his neck while playing the finals vs fOrGG... Please Flash... win a nice trio.
On July 17 2008 19:18 VioleTAK wrote: If fOrGG wins, MSL awards ceremony can take place before the finals. Jaedong will feel more relaxed wioth the gold medal already around his neck while playing the finals vs fOrGG... Please Flash... win a nice trio.
WTF you guys are underrestimating froggy far too much... His TvZ is actually pretty good I think and he has at least a decent chance of taking Jaedong in the finals if he wins this.
On July 17 2008 19:09 3nickma wrote: OMG FLASH JUST LOST THE BO3 AND WON'T BE FACING JAEDONG IN THE FINALS!!
It's a bo5
Yeah I know but just making some fun of all the JD vs. Flash bo3/bo5 talk. If Flash manages to comeback and win 3-2 I think my point should be a bit clearer. If what I'm trying to say is understandable
But oh well sorry don't need more of this fanboy war talk...
On July 17 2008 19:18 VioleTAK wrote: If fOrGG wins, MSL awards ceremony can take place before the finals. Jaedong will feel more relaxed wioth the gold medal already around his neck while playing the finals vs fOrGG... Please Flash... win a nice trio.
FlaSh seems to have gone the way of sAviOr. I don't want to write him off just yet but you've got to admit watching those games you would not know you were watching the FlaSh. Putting him in a starleague final now against someone who still has it would be a total waste and a disappointment all round. Remember FlaSh has no weak mus. If fOrGG beats him that means fOrGG is playing better.
On July 17 2008 19:18 VioleTAK wrote: If fOrGG wins, MSL awards ceremony can take place before the finals. Jaedong will feel more relaxed wioth the gold medal already around his neck while playing the finals vs fOrGG... Please Flash... win a nice trio.
Why are people acting like forGG would have no chance against Jaedong? forGG isn't in the MSL semis for being some scrub, he's had plenty of chances to train against Jaedong in the past and has shown a high level of preparation, creativity, and skill in this tournament. forGG has improved noticeably since the MSL began.
And people are acting like the current Flash is a better contender against the current Jaedong? Props to Flash for pushing through and getting this far, and major props if he survives this series with forGG, but it's obvious the kid needs a month off more than he needs an MSL trophy.
2 starport going up from ForGG, 2 fact from Flash. ForGG tried tearing down the neutral building at Flash's expo, but couldn't get by. Dropship coming from ForGG!
When I saw that Flash is going FE and forGG is proxying I thought: oh man, Flash is going down... but his reaction was just perfect. His ability of defence is just amazing.
MBC Game managers are crying their eyes off right now. The hype difference between a fOrGG/JD and a Flash/Jaedong finals... is so huge. What a huge freakin' letdown :/
Also wtf at people who seriously think THIS Flash vs. Jaedong would be hype? Seriously? Sorry but I'm pretty sure an all-Lecaf final is more interesting than a slumping Flash. Get over the hype, Flash needs a long vacation and for KTF to stop playing him in every match.
On July 17 2008 19:41 TomciO wrote: When I saw that Flash is going FE and forGG is proxying I thought: oh man, Flash is going down... but his reaction was just perfect. His ability of defence is just amazing.
On July 17 2008 19:41 TomciO wrote: When I saw that Flash is going FE and forGG is proxying I thought: oh man, Flash is going down... but his reaction was just perfect. His ability of defence is just amazing.
On July 17 2008 19:43 VioleTAK wrote: MBC Game managers are crying their eyes off right now. The hype difference between a fOrGG/JD and a Flash/Jaedong finals... is so huge. What a huge freakin' letdown :/
On July 17 2008 19:43 VioleTAK wrote: MBC Game managers are crying their eyes off right now. The hype difference between a fOrGG/JD and a Flash/Jaedong finals... is so huge. What a huge freakin' letdown :/
We've already had Flash vs Jaedong games far too much last season... I think it's more exciting with a change.
It's only the Flash fanboys crying their eyes out.
On July 17 2008 19:41 TomciO wrote: When I saw that Flash is going FE and forGG is proxying I thought: oh man, Flash is going down... but his reaction was just perfect. His ability of defence is just amazing.
Suck those fucking proxies down. ForGG avenges Team Lecaf!! Greedy Flash how does the sweet irony of being cheesed out of the MSL taste mwhahaha! Karma's a bitch.
ONLY THING LEFT IS FOR BACKHO TO BACKHAND FLASH OUT OF THE INTEL CLASSIC!!
On July 16 2008 19:51 d_so wrote: flash is so lazy with his tanks. watch forGG's tank micro vs. sizkal in ... i think game 3? and compare it to any of flash's tank movements where he doesnt use drop ships and you can see a huge difference.
i don't think it'll be as onesided as people hope. forGG's performance against sizkal was so gangster i'm gonna call an upset, even though i dont want one:
On July 17 2008 19:47 Scaramanga wrote: What, serously forgg just won twice with cheese and once from flash failing to cheese, so dissapointed in flash
Nice from Forgg, gave me a clear impression that Forgg studied this game very seriously - took to it with a strong plan, and got the result he deserved.
lol let's be angry/sad that 14CC-every-game Flash lost to forGG when forGG has been showing interesting, quality SC play this entire tournament, and Flash has... 14CC'd almost every game. Get over it, kid thought it'd be a great idea to 14CC when he was a) one game from elimination against b) someone who is nicknamed the TIMED ATTACKER.
If this is the level of preparation that Flash was going to bring to a critical series, then he doesn't deserve to play in the finals, and nobody should be disappointed that he dropped out.
Nice try Flash, you had a good run, get your head on straight next season.
On July 17 2008 19:49 ctang wrote: its sad to see FlaSh run through the season with so much finesse and then start to play lazy at the end. good strategies by forgg though.
whatever happened to flash being adaptive and being the aggressor? he played conservatively all the way through and went fast expand 3 out of 4, as if he was hoping forgg would eventually switch to scissors after playing three rocks.
why let someone not as good as you dictate the terms?
This semi only proves how unstable is the pro scene in the moment , the competition is so big that no one can establish pure dominance. Respect to Jaedong for reaching the final of a major tournament for a third time. As for Flash, the kid just burned out, because of his PL season so far
On July 17 2008 19:43 VioleTAK wrote: MBC Game managers are crying their eyes off right now. The hype difference between a fOrGG/JD and a Flash/Jaedong finals... is so huge. What a huge freakin' letdown :/
Jeez. Did you even watch the games? The difference in game quality between forgg jaedong and flash jaedong will be quite obvious. I mean come on, you know flash is losing his touch. forgg is a well rounded monster of a player, flash isn't playing the solid game we all associate with him. Yes the hype of the rival bonjwas will be impressive but when the games suck no-one will care. Remember the GOMTV MSL S1 semis with Bisu-Nal_rA. rA and sAviOr were the old rivals and rA was the only Protoss who looked like he could take a game from sAviOr. Bisu was a no-one who would just waste time before the next starleague started. Bisu winning the semis was a big disappointment in terms of hype. Instead of the whole Holy War motif they'd been doing for rA-sAviOr they had to act like Bisu was the next big thing. But guess what, he was.
Fanboys, please stop crying about how lame these wins were. fOrGG clearly studied Flash's play. He summed it up in one word : greedy. Answer : rush, push fast, and keep the pressure on. Honestly, after being proxied THREE TIMES, why didn't Flash open with a safer build? And why would a 5 pool and a drone drill by July be epic OMFG so brilliant and all that, and a proxy 2 fact by fOrGG be pathetic? GJ fOrGG. BTW, come to France one day. We have so many kinds of different cheeses. You would love it...
On July 17 2008 19:49 HaXxorIzed wrote: Nice form Forgg, gave me a clear impression that Forgg studied this game very seirously - took to it with a strong plan, and got the result he deserved.
fOrGG definitely thought this whole series through much more than Flash. His proxies and semi-proxies basically opened brief timing windows which he exploited extremely well. Flash was counting, as usual, on his perfect defensive timing to handle any 1base counters to his FEs, but fOrGG anticipated this and adjusted his builds accordingly.
ForGG was definitely the better player this time. His rushes worked almost every game (well, game 3 was close imo) and the proxy of Flash just totally failed. I am looking forward to the Jeadong / ForGG final, i think it has the condition for a great final.
On July 17 2008 19:50 Wonders wrote: I doubt that ForGG will be a walkover for JD.
What is with you people ForGG stands the same chance as Flash if not even more vs Jaedong . The people here were excited because of the rivalry going on between the two best players right now . Who said that the gold medal should be handed to Jaedong in a Forgg vs Jaedong final is the same if Flash was in the final. Obviusly Flash didn't leave to the exception of a champion to do a 2 time finals in next season and Jaedong is doing a savior ( when he was reaching his prime ) at this moment . I wouldn't count Flash out next season , but he did not live to the hype this season.
I'm glad Lecaf failing at proleague at least showed their power in the individual leagues , although they were pretty close in geting in playoffs too .Their 2v2 and ace weren't the best but still they did good and i'm happy .
ForGG is making himself a name, his series against Kal were the best in the season so far, and his games vs Flash,showed that he is smart and flexible. Just like BeSt vs July, Flash couldnt play his game, and he should blame only himself for being so predictable in terms of openings.
YESSS! FUCK YOU FLASH, FUCK YOU! You just can not think that how happy i am, flash deserves every cheese-proxy-all-ins, i hope that he will suck and die.
On July 17 2008 20:21 Hyperionnn wrote: YESSS! FUCK YOU FLASH, FUCK YOU! You just can not think that how happy i am, flash deserves every cheese-proxy-all-ins, i hope that he will suck and die.
On July 17 2008 20:21 Hyperionnn wrote: YESSS! FUCK YOU FLASH, FUCK YOU! You just can not think that how happy i am, flash deserves every cheese-proxy-all-ins, i hope that he will suck and die.
Bisu fan?
He used to cheese every SINGLE TvP, he sucks and he will suck forever.
Jaedong is probably relieved now. Looks like he got his 2nd staight MSL title secured. Question is if hes taking a third, and sement himself as a bonjwa once and for all.
Or will forGG pull a Mind and win it?
Wanted Flash to win it, but yeah he hasnt been at his best the past month. Still might get a Flash Jaedong final in Intel Classic Then again hes playing BackHo there(!)
On July 17 2008 20:21 Hyperionnn wrote: YESSS! FUCK YOU FLASH, FUCK YOU! You just can not think that how happy i am, flash deserves every cheese-proxy-all-ins, i hope that he will suck and die.
Bisu fan?
He used to cheese every SINGLE TvP, he sucks and he will suck forever.
On July 17 2008 20:21 Hyperionnn wrote: YESSS! FUCK YOU FLASH, FUCK YOU! You just can not think that how happy i am, flash deserves every cheese-proxy-all-ins, i hope that he will suck and die.
I'm a Bisu fan and even I'm thinking. "B'aww more, troll". Flash improved beyond that into a title contester and winner, you should be happy for him and his progress as a player.
On July 17 2008 20:21 Hyperionnn wrote: YESSS! FUCK YOU FLASH, FUCK YOU! You just can not think that how happy i am, flash deserves every cheese-proxy-all-ins, i hope that he will suck and die.
I'm a Bisu fan and even I'm thinking. "B'aww more, troll". Flash improved beyond that into a title contester and winner, you should be happy for him and his progress as a player.
On July 17 2008 20:21 Hyperionnn wrote: YESSS! FUCK YOU FLASH, FUCK YOU! You just can not think that how happy i am, flash deserves every cheese-proxy-all-ins, i hope that he will suck and die.
Bisu fan?
He used to cheese every SINGLE TvP, he sucks and he will suck forever.
What? No, seriously what?
Well if you know about his bo5 vs Stork @ Daum OSL, that was his first standard TvP series, yet he 2fac'ed in HH, and lost miserably (SCOUUT), he lost 200 units to 7 carriers, and I don't seriously know what the flash is doing in Monty Hall, he made some weird stuff and a quote from FakeSteve:
On July 18 2007 05:13 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
flash being a retard and some nice carrier micro in game 1
flash being a bigger retard and stork playing smartly in game 2
flash being the biggest retard and stork dominating monty hall like he usually does
i dunno if you like watching stork beat up retards this is the series for you
Yes, one series from a year ago defines everything Flash was, is, and will ever be. Ever hear of players getting better, or are you too busy BAAAWWWWing to watch games anymore?
On July 17 2008 20:32 Guybrush wrote: Jaedong is probably relieved now. Looks like he got his 2nd staight MSL title secured. Question is if hes taking a third, and sement himself as a bonjwa once and for all.
I dunno why people keep saying this...if there's one thing we should learn from THIS series it's that the skill differential in progaming is small enough that any player can pull off an upset and nothing is guaranteed.
...after all it's not like ForGG just wons 3-1 over FLASH or anything, is it?
On July 17 2008 20:32 Guybrush wrote: Or will forGG pull a Mind and win it?
Then again, you did add this. It's certainly not out of the question.
On July 17 2008 20:47 Harem wrote: .....When was the last time you watched Flash TvP?
I've watched all his recent games (Since bacchus semis) and yes he was playing like a champ but you know, that does not last too long as he failed in both MSL/OSL.
On July 17 2008 20:21 Hyperionnn wrote: YESSS! FUCK YOU FLASH, FUCK YOU! You just can not think that how happy i am, flash deserves every cheese-proxy-all-ins, i hope that he will suck and die.
Bisu fan?
He used to cheese every SINGLE TvP, he sucks and he will suck forever.
What? No, seriously what?
Well if you know about his bo5 vs Stork @ Daum OSL, that was his first standard TvP series, yet he 2fac'ed in HH, and lost miserably (SCOUUT), he lost 200 units to 7 carriers, and I don't seriously know what the flash is doing in Monty Hall, he made some weird stuff and a quote from FakeSteve:
flash being a retard and some nice carrier micro in game 1
flash being a bigger retard and stork playing smartly in game 2
flash being the biggest retard and stork dominating monty hall like he usually does
i dunno if you like watching stork beat up retards this is the series for you
so many people calling players who give their best retards..
if anyone, fakeSteve is the biggest retard, who never accomplished anything, and is always adding smart strong comments who is idiot, retard or whatever, forgetting that this is only a game and every player gives his best.
On July 17 2008 20:21 Hyperionnn wrote: YESSS! FUCK YOU FLASH, FUCK YOU! You just can not think that how happy i am, flash deserves every cheese-proxy-all-ins, i hope that he will suck and die.
Bisu fan?
He used to cheese every SINGLE TvP, he sucks and he will suck forever.
What? No, seriously what?
Well if you know about his bo5 vs Stork @ Daum OSL, that was his first standard TvP series, yet he 2fac'ed in HH, and lost miserably (SCOUUT), he lost 200 units to 7 carriers, and I don't seriously know what the flash is doing in Monty Hall, he made some weird stuff and a quote from FakeSteve:
On July 18 2007 05:13 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:
flash being a retard and some nice carrier micro in game 1
flash being a bigger retard and stork playing smartly in game 2
flash being the biggest retard and stork dominating monty hall like he usually does
i dunno if you like watching stork beat up retards this is the series for you
so many people calling players who give their best retards..
if anyone, fakeSteve is the biggest retard, who never accomplished anything, and is always adding smart strong comments who is idiot, retard or whatever, forgetting that this is only a game and every player gives his best.
Retards try their best too. The descriptions aren't mutually exclusive. And if you've seen the game in question you'd agree, The carriers had 150+ kills between them because Flash was trying to just shoot down interceptors.
It seems that SC finally turns into cheese playing. Flash cheesed against Stork in OSL finals, he cheesed against Jaedong in GSI, Jaedong cheesed against him in the same GSI, BackHo cheesed against Jaedong, July cheesed against Best, now forGG cheesed against Flash.
It seems that nobody now respects straight play, everyone wants to cheese. Disappointing.
I have a proposal. Everyone who says "Forgg ruined the finals" from hereon-then as a serious phrase until this is actually proven by the finals being ruined by him (and only him) letting down the standard of play in the finals gets some sort of punishment. A two day ban, or public mocking or something ... I don't know. At the very least can people just wait and see the results before bemoaning how 'bad' Forgg's play is, when he's overcome every obstacle that everyone (even FakeSteve) has said so far by continually lifting his play?. *
* The exceptions to this are obviously the people who are all "well damn, I was really looking towards the Jaedong/Flash rivalry continuation", because that's actually supporting a post with something that makes sense.
Also, Bifur that is quite possibly one of the most uninformed posts in this thread so far. SC for an age has been locked into FE mass economy builds, it's about damn time someone did some risky proxy play to force modern players to adapt their builds beyond 'straight up play'.
On July 17 2008 22:06 Bifur wrote: It seems that SC finally turns into cheese playing. Flash cheesed against Stork in OSL finals, he cheesed against Jaedong in GSI, Jaedong cheesed against him in the same GSI, BackHo cheesed against Jaedong, July cheesed against Best, now forGG cheesed against Flash.
It seems that nobody now respects straight play, everyone wants to cheese. Disappointing.
I don't have the words to describe just how wrong this is on so many levels. Go play Zero Clutter NR 20.
On July 17 2008 22:15 HaXxorIzed wrote: I have a proposal. Everyone who says "Forgg ruined the finals" from hereon-then as a serious phrase until this is actually proven by the finals being ruined by him (and only him) letting down the standard of play in the finals gets some sort of punishment. A two day ban, or public mocking or something .. I don't know.
Also, Bifur that is quite possibly one of the most uninformed posts in this thread so far. SC for an age has been locked into FE mass economy builds, it's about damn time someone did some risky proxy play to force modern players to adapt their builds beyond 'straight up play'.
That and Julys play was fucking sublime. It wasn't cheese. It was a barrage of psychological warfare followed by pure sense of star. Instant and unplanned decision making to execute best. That drone drill was fantastic.
On July 17 2008 22:15 HaXxorIzed wrote: I have a proposal. Everyone who says "Forgg ruined the finals" from hereon-then as a serious phrase until this is actually proven by the finals being ruined by him (and only him) letting down the standard of play in the finals gets some sort of punishment. A two day ban, or public mocking or something .. I don't know.
Also, Bifur that is quite possibly one of the most uninformed posts in this thread so far. SC for an age has been locked into FE mass economy builds, it's about damn time someone did some risky proxy play to force modern players to adapt their builds beyond 'straight up play'.
That and Julys play was fucking sublime. It wasn't cheese. It was a barrage of psychological warfare followed by pure sense of star. Instant and unplanned decision making to execute best. That drone drill was fantastic.
flash bio rushes bisu twice and hes a cheesy newb who cant win a straight game july allins best twice and he has sense of star
he found the gaping hole in best game and exploited it, he earned his win and its pretty cool he got the golden mouse and all but sorry, 5 pooling and drone drilling is not brilliance or sense of star or anything of the sort.
"That and Julys play was fucking sublime. It wasn't cheese. It was a barrage of psychological warfare followed by pure sense of star. Instant and unplanned decision making to execute best. That drone drill was fantastic"
Thats true, the attack was instant and base to the scouting info he got from the overlord just 1/1000 seconds before he died. If the ove scouted the bottom left, not the top right, this attack was never going to happen. ForGG's BOs were prepared, he did his homework fantastic, but in general will partly agree with the statement that the gaming style of the zerg mostly is more rush orientated recently. Most of them especially in the ZvP are going 9pool just to put some early pressure on the toss and to force him to make 2 extra cannons before the fast nex. But I dont see anything cheesy in that
On July 17 2008 22:40 IdrA wrote: flash bio rushes bisu twice and hes a cheesy newb who cant win a straight game july allins best twice and he has sense of star
he found the gaping hole in best game and exploited it, he earned his win and its pretty cool he got the golden mouse and all but sorry, 5 pooling and drone drilling is not brilliance or sense of star or anything of the sort.
I think the difference here is that July was already a relatively accomplished overall player. Sure he probably can't keep up with the pure mechanics of today's players, but he's not too shabby, as evidenced by game 3.
On the other hand, when Flash pulled off the double cheeseburger, he was fresh off of what amounts to a hard-fought win over an uninspiring Odin and an epic collapse against ROKAF Boxer, who's definitely not who you think of when you think "powerful straight-up gameplay."
The best example at this point would be Boxer, but the simple argument for that is that he's Boxer, and he MADE cheese what it is, so he gets a "free pass" so to speak. He and Nal_Ra are probably the only two players right now where people actually watch their games in order to see what sort of brilliant, map-specific cheese they might have come up with.
On July 17 2008 22:40 IdrA wrote: flash bio rushes bisu twice and hes a cheesy newb who cant win a straight game july allins best twice and he has sense of star
he found the gaping hole in best game and exploited it, he earned his win and its pretty cool he got the golden mouse and all but sorry, 5 pooling and drone drilling is not brilliance or sense of star or anything of the sort.
I think the difference here is that July was already a relatively accomplished overall player. Sure he probably can't keep up with the pure mechanics of today's players, but he's not too shabby, as evidenced by game 3.
On the other hand, when Flash pulled off the double cheeseburger, he was fresh off of what amounts to a hard-fought win over an uninspiring Odin and an epic collapse against ROKAF Boxer, who's definitely not who you think of when you think "powerful straight-up gameplay."
The best example at this point would be Boxer, but the simple argument for that is that he's Boxer, and he MADE cheese what it is, so he gets a "free pass" so to speak. He and Nal_Ra are probably the only two players right now where people actually watch their games in order to see what sort of brilliant, map-specific cheese they might have come up with.
that was my point, everything is based on popular opinion of the players. a popular player cheeses and its not cheese, its brilliant strategy. someone unknown or disliked cheeses and theye allining newbies.
5 pool is cheese, whether you're D rank iccup or a golden mouse winner
Well admittedly the difference between 5pooling in a final and 5pooling in the Ro8 is something one should acknowledge. To play 5pool in probably the last OSL final you will ever have against a Protoss who seems to excel at bouncing back shows a strong amount of mental fortitude I don't think many have.
Flash started his rise with rushes against the best of the best, now ForGG does exactly the same to counter Flash - the current best of the best. ForGG obviously did his homework.
On July 17 2008 22:40 IdrA wrote: flash bio rushes bisu twice and hes a cheesy newb who cant win a straight game july allins best twice and he has sense of star
he found the gaping hole in best game and exploited it, he earned his win and its pretty cool he got the golden mouse and all but sorry, 5 pooling and drone drilling is not brilliance or sense of star or anything of the sort.
I think the difference here is that July was already a relatively accomplished overall player. Sure he probably can't keep up with the pure mechanics of today's players, but he's not too shabby, as evidenced by game 3.
On the other hand, when Flash pulled off the double cheeseburger, he was fresh off of what amounts to a hard-fought win over an uninspiring Odin and an epic collapse against ROKAF Boxer, who's definitely not who you think of when you think "powerful straight-up gameplay."
The best example at this point would be Boxer, but the simple argument for that is that he's Boxer, and he MADE cheese what it is, so he gets a "free pass" so to speak. He and Nal_Ra are probably the only two players right now where people actually watch their games in order to see what sort of brilliant, map-specific cheese they might have come up with.
that was my point, everything is based on popular opinion of the players. a popular player cheeses and its not cheese, its brilliant strategy. someone unknown or disliked cheeses and theye allining newbies.
5 pool is cheese, whether you're D rank iccup or a golden mouse winner
i completely agree with this. does anyone remember how everyone was calling out jju for 5 pooling and then praised chojja when he did it in the next series?
On July 17 2008 22:40 IdrA wrote: flash bio rushes bisu twice and hes a cheesy newb who cant win a straight game july allins best twice and he has sense of star
he found the gaping hole in best game and exploited it, he earned his win and its pretty cool he got the golden mouse and all but sorry, 5 pooling and drone drilling is not brilliance or sense of star or anything of the sort.
I think the difference here is that July was already a relatively accomplished overall player. Sure he probably can't keep up with the pure mechanics of today's players, but he's not too shabby, as evidenced by game 3.
On the other hand, when Flash pulled off the double cheeseburger, he was fresh off of what amounts to a hard-fought win over an uninspiring Odin and an epic collapse against ROKAF Boxer, who's definitely not who you think of when you think "powerful straight-up gameplay."
The best example at this point would be Boxer, but the simple argument for that is that he's Boxer, and he MADE cheese what it is, so he gets a "free pass" so to speak. He and Nal_Ra are probably the only two players right now where people actually watch their games in order to see what sort of brilliant, map-specific cheese they might have come up with.
that was my point, everything is based on popular opinion of the players. a popular player cheeses and its not cheese, its brilliant strategy. someone unknown or disliked cheeses and theye allining newbies.
5 pool is cheese, whether you're D rank iccup or a golden mouse winner
On July 18 2008 00:02 HaXxorIzed wrote: Well admittedly the difference between 5pooling in a final and 5pooling in the Ro8 is something one should acknowledge. To play 5pool in probably the last OSL final you will ever have against a Protoss who seems to excel at bouncing back shows a strong amount of mental fortitude I don't think many have.
I can envision it now... the Lecaf coach going up to the stage to hug Jaedong for his second MSL title, then giving forgg an awkward yet mandatory "I-have-to-hug-you-because-you're-in-Lecaf" hug.
I don't get what people are complaining about. ForGG showed some excellent play; his proxies were both fun to watch and nicely executed. And the game were Flash proxied a starport, ForGG won with straight-up play. A couple of the most amusing TvT's in a long long time, and people are bitching just because they're Flash-fanboys. :/ He just haven't played as good as he did a while ago, and I honestly think the finals will be much more fun to watch with someone that at least reads his opponent and tries some new stuff than the guy that currently seems to think that 14CC is the only way to go. I for one will enjoy the finals much more than if Flash would've won.
On July 18 2008 00:24 OneOther wrote: mental fortitude to 5 pool? What the hell...
You're joking, right? I don't think too many people would be able to go up there and 5-pool someone, unless it was just for the novelty. Despite the seemingly relatively high success-rate of 5 pool in the pro-scene (Jju, July, Luxury, etc.), it seems like not a whole lot of people actually even TRY it, much less in such a high-pressure situation.
I have only 3 thoughts after watching these semis: 1) Flash had a really, really bad day . 2) Jaedong will win the finals easy . 3) forGG is noone and even if 2) doesn't happen it will remain noone (like Mind or GGplay).
Hey I'm a huge Flash fanboy, but even I have to admit, if he in the form he's in now faced Jaedong it would have probably been embarrassing.
That's not to say I think overall Jaedong is better than Flash, just that Flash is so fucking out of it recently. He needs to rethink his play. He used to be very unpredictable and now he's wwaaaaayyy predictable.
Hopefully he learns from these mistakes and increases his overall play. I believe he can take Jaedong out should they meet at GSL
On July 18 2008 00:42 sushiman wrote: I don't get what people are complaining about. ForGG showed some excellent play; his proxies were both fun to watch and nicely executed. And the game were Flash proxied a starport, ForGG won with straight-up play. A couple of the most amusing TvT's in a long long time, and people are bitching just because they're Flash-fanboys. :/ He just haven't played as good as he did a while ago, and I honestly think the finals will be much more fun to watch with someone that at least reads his opponent and tries some new stuff than the guy that currently seems to think that 14CC is the only way to go. I for one will enjoy the finals much more than if Flash would've won.
Exactly, doing 14CC every single game is kinda... not flashy. Because of his inability to adapt he deserved to lose
On July 18 2008 01:35 Darkmole wrote: do you guys think fOrGG is gonna give the game to Jaedong? just like Lomo vs Jaedong?
i hope you are kidding -_-
lomo did not drop the stupid game to jaedong please read more than the first post of that stupid thread so you can see people explaining all the reasons why #1, lomo wasnt ahead at all (he killed only 2-3 drones and got all his marines killed), #2 they wouldnt throw a fucking game in an individual league, ESPECIALLY not for the stupid reason of "Jaedong would have a better chance beating Flash", and #3 that IF they were trying to throw the game, they would have done a build order win like the fixed game in china (i.e. 9 pool vs 14 cc)
maybe the entire MSL is a series of thrown games cleverly disguised as actual competition, just so JAEDONG the mastermind of fixing games can win an MSL
On July 17 2008 22:40 IdrA wrote: flash bio rushes bisu twice and hes a cheesy newb who cant win a straight game july allins best twice and he has sense of star
he found the gaping hole in best game and exploited it, he earned his win and its pretty cool he got the golden mouse and all but sorry, 5 pooling and drone drilling is not brilliance or sense of star or anything of the sort.
I think the difference here is that July was already a relatively accomplished overall player. Sure he probably can't keep up with the pure mechanics of today's players, but he's not too shabby, as evidenced by game 3.
On the other hand, when Flash pulled off the double cheeseburger, he was fresh off of what amounts to a hard-fought win over an uninspiring Odin and an epic collapse against ROKAF Boxer, who's definitely not who you think of when you think "powerful straight-up gameplay."
The best example at this point would be Boxer, but the simple argument for that is that he's Boxer, and he MADE cheese what it is, so he gets a "free pass" so to speak. He and Nal_Ra are probably the only two players right now where people actually watch their games in order to see what sort of brilliant, map-specific cheese they might have come up with.
that was my point, everything is based on popular opinion of the players. a popular player cheeses and its not cheese, its brilliant strategy. someone unknown or disliked cheeses and theye allining newbies.
5 pool is cheese, whether you're D rank iccup or a golden mouse winner
But the thing is strategies like 5-pool, drone drill, and bunker rush are also affected by popular opinion. They're as legitimate as any other strategy with their own risk/reward. Especially in a case where they'd clearly work, then they oughta be used!
And yet they're called cheese instead and elicit lame attacks on player's other abilities. I mean, I understand if a newbie pulls one over a pro, but this is July ffs. Can you serious tell me with a straight face that July's macro slouches?
Look, if you're the better player, scout it, defend it, counter it, even execute it yourself, especially in a BO5 where the better is suppose to win. And apparently he did.
On July 18 2008 00:24 OneOther wrote: mental fortitude to 5 pool? What the hell...
You're joking, right? I don't think too many people would be able to go up there and 5-pool someone, unless it was just for the novelty. Despite the seemingly relatively high success-rate of 5 pool in the pro-scene (Jju, July, Luxury, etc.), it seems like not a whole lot of people actually even TRY it, much less in such a high-pressure situation.
No, I am not joking. 5 pool is 5 pool. It doesn't take much "mental fortitude" to 5 pool. It's either a quick or a quick loss, to the hell with it.
Cheese to me is all-in, it's do or fail. When cheese fails, the "cheeser" ought to lose. So when a cheese fails and the "cheeser" still wins, it's not the cheese, it's the other player and his lack of "mental fortitude" to me.
If you get unnerved and can't hold your water steady, you lose baby!
I guess the finals will be interesting, as both players know each other's play styles really well, so the weaker one might actually just step up his game to the next level.
We all saw what happened in the Iris vs Savior series.
On July 17 2008 22:40 IdrA wrote: flash bio rushes bisu twice and hes a cheesy newb who cant win a straight game july allins best twice and he has sense of star
he found the gaping hole in best game and exploited it, he earned his win and its pretty cool he got the golden mouse and all but sorry, 5 pooling and drone drilling is not brilliance or sense of star or anything of the sort.
I think the difference here is that July was already a relatively accomplished overall player. Sure he probably can't keep up with the pure mechanics of today's players, but he's not too shabby, as evidenced by game 3.
On the other hand, when Flash pulled off the double cheeseburger, he was fresh off of what amounts to a hard-fought win over an uninspiring Odin and an epic collapse against ROKAF Boxer, who's definitely not who you think of when you think "powerful straight-up gameplay."
The best example at this point would be Boxer, but the simple argument for that is that he's Boxer, and he MADE cheese what it is, so he gets a "free pass" so to speak. He and Nal_Ra are probably the only two players right now where people actually watch their games in order to see what sort of brilliant, map-specific cheese they might have come up with.
that was my point, everything is based on popular opinion of the players. a popular player cheeses and its not cheese, its brilliant strategy. someone unknown or disliked cheeses and theye allining newbies.
5 pool is cheese, whether you're D rank iccup or a golden mouse winner
But the thing is strategies like 5-pool, drone drill, and bunker rush are also affected by popular opinion. They're as legitimate as any other strategy with their own risk/reward. Especially in a case where they'd clearly work, then they oughta be used!
And yet they're called cheese instead and elicit lame attacks on player's other abilities. I mean, I understand if a newbie pulls one over a pro, but this is July ffs. Can you serious tell me with a straight face that July's macro slouches?
Look, if you're the better player, scout it, defend it, counter it, even execute it yourself, especially in a BO5 where the better is suppose to win. And apparently he did.
you tell yourself that while you take wins from players 4 ranks better than you with a 5 pool?
On July 17 2008 19:46 ShloobeR wrote: BackHo and fOrGG should form a new team
I second this. They should be called "bitches who are retarded" or something along those lines. fucking that scrub mind can join too. fuck fOrGG. fuck the finals Jaedong will take it or he sucks at starcraft
i just think fOrGG is a fucking bitch because he has no chance in hell to beat Jaedong in the finals and i think he was jealous that Flash was supposed to meet jaedong so he thought up a plan to thwart this by cheesing him. he's a greedy little bastard who will lose 1-3 to Jaedong in the finals. no doubt. fuck fOrGG
On July 17 2008 22:40 IdrA wrote: flash bio rushes bisu twice and hes a cheesy newb who cant win a straight game july allins best twice and he has sense of star
he found the gaping hole in best game and exploited it, he earned his win and its pretty cool he got the golden mouse and all but sorry, 5 pooling and drone drilling is not brilliance or sense of star or anything of the sort.
I think the difference here is that July was already a relatively accomplished overall player. Sure he probably can't keep up with the pure mechanics of today's players, but he's not too shabby, as evidenced by game 3.
On the other hand, when Flash pulled off the double cheeseburger, he was fresh off of what amounts to a hard-fought win over an uninspiring Odin and an epic collapse against ROKAF Boxer, who's definitely not who you think of when you think "powerful straight-up gameplay."
The best example at this point would be Boxer, but the simple argument for that is that he's Boxer, and he MADE cheese what it is, so he gets a "free pass" so to speak. He and Nal_Ra are probably the only two players right now where people actually watch their games in order to see what sort of brilliant, map-specific cheese they might have come up with.
that was my point, everything is based on popular opinion of the players. a popular player cheeses and its not cheese, its brilliant strategy. someone unknown or disliked cheeses and theye allining newbies.
5 pool is cheese, whether you're D rank iccup or a golden mouse winner
But the thing is strategies like 5-pool, drone drill, and bunker rush are also affected by popular opinion. They're as legitimate as any other strategy with their own risk/reward. Especially in a case where they'd clearly work, then they oughta be used!
And yet they're called cheese instead and elicit lame attacks on player's other abilities. I mean, I understand if a newbie pulls one over a pro, but this is July ffs. Can you serious tell me with a straight face that July's macro slouches?
Look, if you're the better player, scout it, defend it, counter it, even execute it yourself, especially in a BO5 where the better is suppose to win. And apparently he did.
you tell yourself that while you take wins from players 4 ranks better than you with a 5 pool?
No, I tell myself that when I lose to players my rank with a 4/5 pool. Then I cry myself to sleep.
Seriousy though, I like cheeses. It means a fast paced micro game, and we don't get enough of those.
On July 17 2008 22:40 IdrA wrote: flash bio rushes bisu twice and hes a cheesy newb who cant win a straight game july allins best twice and he has sense of star
he found the gaping hole in best game and exploited it, he earned his win and its pretty cool he got the golden mouse and all but sorry, 5 pooling and drone drilling is not brilliance or sense of star or anything of the sort.
I think the difference here is that July was already a relatively accomplished overall player. Sure he probably can't keep up with the pure mechanics of today's players, but he's not too shabby, as evidenced by game 3.
On the other hand, when Flash pulled off the double cheeseburger, he was fresh off of what amounts to a hard-fought win over an uninspiring Odin and an epic collapse against ROKAF Boxer, who's definitely not who you think of when you think "powerful straight-up gameplay."
The best example at this point would be Boxer, but the simple argument for that is that he's Boxer, and he MADE cheese what it is, so he gets a "free pass" so to speak. He and Nal_Ra are probably the only two players right now where people actually watch their games in order to see what sort of brilliant, map-specific cheese they might have come up with.
that was my point, everything is based on popular opinion of the players. a popular player cheeses and its not cheese, its brilliant strategy. someone unknown or disliked cheeses and theye allining newbies.
5 pool is cheese, whether you're D rank iccup or a golden mouse winner
But the thing is strategies like 5-pool, drone drill, and bunker rush are also affected by popular opinion. They're as legitimate as any other strategy with their own risk/reward. Especially in a case where they'd clearly work, then they oughta be used!
And yet they're called cheese instead and elicit lame attacks on player's other abilities. I mean, I understand if a newbie pulls one over a pro, but this is July ffs. Can you serious tell me with a straight face that July's macro slouches?
Look, if you're the better player, scout it, defend it, counter it, even execute it yourself, especially in a BO5 where the better is suppose to win. And apparently he did.
you tell yourself that while you take wins from players 4 ranks better than you with a 5 pool?
So? It's not gonna work every time. Everyone knows you can't rely on cheese to win games consistently.
I mean, I'm baffled when people made a big deal about July. This is the guy that all-out ling rushed OOv when he had firebats blocking his choke. Fucking July!
So? It's not gonna work every time. Everyone knows you can't rely on cheese to win games consistently
thats the entire point... you cant rely on it, its not based on skill. its just an easy way to get a win you dont deserve vs someone you arent likely to beat anyway.
On July 17 2008 22:40 IdrA wrote: flash bio rushes bisu twice and hes a cheesy newb who cant win a straight game july allins best twice and he has sense of star
he found the gaping hole in best game and exploited it, he earned his win and its pretty cool he got the golden mouse and all but sorry, 5 pooling and drone drilling is not brilliance or sense of star or anything of the sort.
I think the difference here is that July was already a relatively accomplished overall player. Sure he probably can't keep up with the pure mechanics of today's players, but he's not too shabby, as evidenced by game 3.
On the other hand, when Flash pulled off the double cheeseburger, he was fresh off of what amounts to a hard-fought win over an uninspiring Odin and an epic collapse against ROKAF Boxer, who's definitely not who you think of when you think "powerful straight-up gameplay."
The best example at this point would be Boxer, but the simple argument for that is that he's Boxer, and he MADE cheese what it is, so he gets a "free pass" so to speak. He and Nal_Ra are probably the only two players right now where people actually watch their games in order to see what sort of brilliant, map-specific cheese they might have come up with.
that was my point, everything is based on popular opinion of the players. a popular player cheeses and its not cheese, its brilliant strategy. someone unknown or disliked cheeses and theye allining newbies.
5 pool is cheese, whether you're D rank iccup or a golden mouse winner
But the thing is strategies like 5-pool, drone drill, and bunker rush are also affected by popular opinion. They're as legitimate as any other strategy with their own risk/reward. Especially in a case where they'd clearly work, then they oughta be used!
And yet they're called cheese instead and elicit lame attacks on player's other abilities. I mean, I understand if a newbie pulls one over a pro, but this is July ffs. Can you serious tell me with a straight face that July's macro slouches?
Look, if you're the better player, scout it, defend it, counter it, even execute it yourself, especially in a BO5 where the better is suppose to win. And apparently he did.
you tell yourself that while you take wins from players 4 ranks better than you with a 5 pool?
So? It's not gonna work every time. Everyone knows you can't rely on cheese to win games consistently.
I mean, I'm baffled when people made a big deal about July. This is the guy that ling rushed OOv when he had firebats blocking his choke. Fucking July!
yeah that's all true. cheeses also require luck, and sometimes players get lucky or unlucky. but in all seriousness, fuck forgg
So? It's not gonna work every time. Everyone knows you can't rely on cheese to win games consistently
thats the entire point... you cant rely on it, its not based on skill. its just an easy way to get a win you dont deserve vs someone you arent likely to beat anyway.
So what happens when a pro cheeses a newb? Does your point still stick?
It's not the strategy itself dude. It comes down to who pulls it out the bag. The more popular player tends to be seasoned vet like Boxer or July, who weigh their chances carefully and clearly aren't desperate for all-in wins, especially if they cheese in a MU that they are strong in.
Who's a vet that is desperate? Gorush and his goddamned ZvP all-ins.
So? It's not gonna work every time. Everyone knows you can't rely on cheese to win games consistently
thats the entire point... you cant rely on it, its not based on skill. its just an easy way to get a win you dont deserve vs someone you arent likely to beat anyway.
well yeah but the worst part is that it was fucking fOrGG cheesing Flash in a fucking semifinal game of a tournament that fOrGG isn't going to win anyway. back when Flash cheese the shit outa people it was as big of a deal because he didn't take people out on the brink of an insanely tight final. he took out Bisu in a bo3 early on in an OSL that Bisu might not have reached the finals to anyway. Flash was probably so fucking sure he was going to beat fOrGG that he didn't practice that much, and instead started practicing against zerg. fucking fOrGG had to be a little cunt and do some unexpected shit, rob all of us, and most people who watch starcraft, of one of the most anticipated finals ever, since Flash and Jaedong have already played each other in 3 series and are equal in games against each other. i was really really hoping for the clutchest player ever vs the most dominant player ever in the most important tournament of the year and now we, all of us, can't watch it thanks to a little jealous bitch named fOrGG.
ohhsuup, why do you keep posting nonsense with profanity? Fanboy much?
Flash lost. Flash cheated you out of a Flash Jaedong final cus he lost and didn't win. Flash dropped 3 games in a BO5, which is above the cutoff for the most you can lose and not be eliminated.
It's Flash's fault for losing in a game that you can play one of several dozen ways. He picked his cards and lost the hand 3 times to 1.
I'd love for him to play better and pass on, but it's not about me. It's "whoever wins" advances. Before today people crossed off ForGG for dead, so why are people doing the "stupid" again for the final?
this will be just like the osl, forgg does the impossible by beating flash as best came from a 2-0 defecit, then forgg will get raped by jaedong so hard that the only entertainment value we get from this game is from its hilarity
Flash cheesed Bisu, and if you want me to take your speech mannerism, "robbed" Bisu of a historic opportunity of winning both the OSL and the MSL at the same time. This was during his prime, when he was considered the next bonjwa by even most TLers, and there was a legitimately anticipated Savior vs Bisu rematch, if I recall correctly, lurking around the corner when Bisu was handed a double cheeseburger.
If Flash was looking ahead, that's his problem. This is no excuse. Plenty of professional athletes and teams are guilty of pulling this stunt, and it's their own fault for getting canned. You can't do it. You just can't. At that point it becomes YOUR (Flash's) fault for underestimating ForGG, who's actually been relatively accomplished in the past, at least in the PL. So it's like saying "oh it's just Sea he never gets past the first round of Starleagues, I'll practice TvP for Kal instead) and then getting your ass handed back on a silver platter.
Kudos to forGG, as I mentioned before. I think it's been quite some time (unless I'm mistaken) that a player had the balls to pull off the same proxy three times out of four games. And lest you kid yourself, Flash pulled the "cheese" in game 2 and got steamrolled by ForGG's standard play.
On July 18 2008 03:03 tKd_ wrote: this will be just like the osl, forgg does the impossible by beating flash as best came from a 2-0 defecit, then forgg will get raped by jaedong so hard that the only entertainment value we get from this game is from its hilarity
It'll be an interesting game, and here's to hoping ForGG can keep it relatively close. They're teammates, and ForGG's better known for his TvZ and TvP, so we could end up with a rather nifty set of games like Lomo vs Jaedong in the GSL. Granted ForGG's not quite a TvZ sniper like Lomo, but he's been around, so he has the veteran craftiness backing him up.
It might still be a 3-0, but it doesn't necessarily mean the games'll be a cakewalk. I mean, if he remains confident in his creativity, I'm even hoping for a Boxer-esque string of tactical fun.
So? It's not gonna work every time. Everyone knows you can't rely on cheese to win games consistently
thats the entire point... you cant rely on it, its not based on skill. its just an easy way to get a win you dont deserve vs someone you arent likely to beat anyway.
So what happens when a pro cheeses a newb? Does your point still stick?
It's not the strategy itself dude. It comes down to who pulls it out the bag. The more popular player tends to be seasoned vet like Boxer or July, who weigh their chances carefully and clearly aren't desperate for all-in wins, especially if they cheese in a MU that they are strong in.
Who's a vet that is desperate? Gorush and his goddamned ZvP all-ins.
of course it still stands, and yes it is the strategy. fan favorite, good player, whatever. theyre cheesing because they think its their best chance to win, and no matter what the conditions 5 pool and the like are allin builds. some skill involved in micro, but almost entirely dependant on your opponent not scouting you/guessing you're gonna allin.
i dont really see what you're trying to argue, the builds are do or die no matter who uses them and as such they should get less respect than winning by outplaying the other player.
On July 17 2008 19:44 ICanFlyLow wrote: God dammit, Anyone else that was looking forward to some flash vs jaedong rivalry?
Flash vs Jaedong is like what sAviOr vs Bisu was. And ForGG is like that fucker Mind who denied us our dream final.
I think that Jaedong vs FlaSh is way different than sAviOr vs Bisu in GOMTVMSL S3 because savior and bisu had already met in a final, and it was rape from bisu. also, bisu didn't fucking cheese his way into a final, or cheese during the final. what forgg has done is way way worse because this final was supposed to decide who, between flash and jaedong, is the better player right now, and probably ever. it would have been way way more epic than savior vs nada, savior vs bisu, oov vs boxer, and oov vs july combined. i was expecting a 5 game series and each game going longer than 30 minutes and the last game going for like 40 minutes with a completely mined out map. you know, the craziest, most exciting i-have-ABSOLUTELY-NO-FUCKING-CLUE-WHO-IS-GOING-TO-WIN every second of the game until the last 30 seconds, of every game of the BO5. if there would be 1 game during a fucking starleague final that KESPA would have to pause and restart the game because it didn't look like anyone was going to win it would have been this one imho. however, now we can't enjoy this, and probably won't ever again. if people in korea care about seeing good games as much i think they do, im betting they're all pretty pissed at forgg. what are the chances that flash and jaedong will meet in another starleague final? very, very, very slim. i bet even jeadong is pissed off now that the MSL is already won for him. pretty unsatisfying for a player of his calibur to know that he's won before he actually has. it won't even be challenge for him to beat forgg. he'll be yawning and playing with one hand the entire series.
i don't know if you guys are baseball fans but this community could really use a starcraft sabematrician. someone who could really analyze the shit out of the database. for example, they would say something like, 'well, the perceived rush win expectency is around 50/50, and the stats from 07-08 seem to support the general perception, with a 52% win percent in favor of the rusher.' (i'm making these stats up, as an example). then they could look at rush stats in 2 player maps vs 4 player maps, look at how rush frequency relates to series context (1 game proleague, v 1 game starleague opening rounds, v 3 and 5 game), how it relates to elo (how much more frequent do weaker players cheese? what is the win expectency of a rush vs a player of even elo? seperated by 50, 100, or 200 points?)
of course rushes would just be one topic. and just like in baseball, i think it would be interesting to have hard evidence, which would give context to our guts.
People keep saying Flash cheesed Bisu twice, but in their game on monty hall, Bisu prepared a cheese himself by going proxy reaver, it's just that his cheese got beat by a speedier cheese
When one cheese counters another, it's more like a BO lose. That to me is a legit lose.
On July 18 2008 02:59 .risingdragoon wrote: ohhsuup, why do you keep posting nonsense with profanity? Fanboy much?
Flash lost. Flash cheated you out of a Flash Jaedong final cus he lost and didn't win. Flash dropped 3 games in a BO5, which is above the cutoff for the most you can lose and not be eliminated.
It's Flash's fault for losing in a game that you can play one of several dozen ways. He picked his cards and lost the hand 3 times to 1.
I'd love for him to play better and pass on, but it's not about me. It's "whoever wins" advances. Before today people crossed off ForGG for dead, so why are people doing the "stupid" again for the final?
well im not as much of a flash fanboy as a FlaSh vs Jaedong arena MSL 08 Finals fanboy.
but yes, I have lost a lot of respect for FlaSh for losing to such an inferior player from strategies that he himself used to use on people much better than him.
On July 18 2008 03:12 .risingdragoon wrote: One correction:
People keep saying Flash cheesed Bisu twice, but in their game on monty hall, Bisu prepared a cheese himself by going proxy reaver, it's just that his cheese got beat by a speedier cheese
When one cheese counters another, it's more like a BO lose. That to me is a legit lose.
listen im not even saying forgg didn't win legitamately. im saying that he's a fucking cunt for doing what he did just because he robbed us of jaedong vs flash finals, and the chances of him beating jaedong are even less than the chances of him beating flash
What is it about "cheese" strategy that people feel is so distasteful? It is a calculated gamble, and if it doesn't pay off big it usually puts the cheeser at a big disadvantage. How boring would it be if players only did standard builds every single game? People seem to act like cheese is no skill, but again they really have to play it perfectly to secure their advantage or else they're usually in trouble. Anyway sucks that Flash lost, maybe next season.
So? It's not gonna work every time. Everyone knows you can't rely on cheese to win games consistently
thats the entire point... you cant rely on it, its not based on skill. its just an easy way to get a win you dont deserve vs someone you arent likely to beat anyway.
So what happens when a pro cheeses a newb? Does your point still stick?
It's not the strategy itself dude. It comes down to who pulls it out the bag. The more popular player tends to be seasoned vet like Boxer or July, who weigh their chances carefully and clearly aren't desperate for all-in wins, especially if they cheese in a MU that they are strong in.
Who's a vet that is desperate? Gorush and his goddamned ZvP all-ins.
of course it still stands, and yes it is the strategy. fan favorite, good player, whatever. theyre cheesing because they think its their best chance to win, and no matter what the conditions 5 pool and the like are allin builds. some skill involved in micro, but almost entirely dependant on your opponent not scouting you/guessing you're gonna allin.
i dont really see what you're trying to argue, the builds are do or die no matter who uses them and as such they should get less respect than winning by outplaying the other player.
Well Idra, I think you hit a bullseye by using the word "respect". It comes down to intention, is the intention to cheese cause for disrespect?
July said in his post-game interview that he mostly prepared for games 1 and 3, and that he analyzed Best's game on Troy and found it to be weak to drone drill. That's not cheese-and-pray to me. Granted to outplay someone is more convincing, I think cheese where warranted is at least not cause for disrespect.
As for boxer, the cheeses that he does are multi-stage strategies with pinpoint executions. Who doesn't love that?
yea the thing is i really don't know why anyone wants a forgg vs jaedong finals. you really think forgg has a chance, AND you wouldn't rather see FlaSh, ALSO A TERRAN PLAYER BTW, play jaedong??? how can you not want to see 5 incredibely exciting games, unless you think that forgg actually has a chance. idk how you could be a fan of terran and want forgg to play jaedong instead of flash. OR how you could not be a fan of very exciting games, which jaedong vs FlaSh would have given us. if you think forgg has a chance against jaedong well then -_-;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; to you. biggest upset ever if that happens imo.
edit: if forgg wins i'll never post on TL.net again
forgg's tvz is incredibly potent, not for some godly mnm control but for his timing, as well as the units he has at particular timings in the game that no other terran is capable of producing. The two are teammates, and it's going to be a damn good show.
you know jack shit. I hope forgg wins so you keep your word and bugger off.
ForGG and Jaedong will take it to game 5 where , ForGG will sunken break jaedong leaving only the hatchery and a drone alive, after that Jaedong will make the sickest comeback ever, even sicker than his historic game against Lomo. ForGG will be so helpless, will lose a 3 to 1 base TvZ, which is a very common thing, when you are playing against Jaedong. After that we will all hail the new king of kings and compare him with savior... jee savior will look like a complete noob after the comeback we will see from Jaedong
On July 18 2008 03:42 ohhsuup wrote: yea the thing is i really don't know why anyone wants a forgg vs jaedong finals. you really think forgg has a chance, AND you wouldn't rather see FlaSh, ALSO A TERRAN PLAYER BTW, play jaedong??? how can you not want to see 5 incredibely exciting games, unless you think that forgg actually has a chance. idk how you could be a fan of terran and want forgg to play jaedong instead of flash. OR how you could not be a fan of very exciting games, which jaedong vs FlaSh would have given us. if you think forgg has a chance against jaedong well then -_-;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; to you. biggest upset ever if that happens imo.
edit: if forgg wins i'll never post on TL.net again
I'd rather see forGG v. Jaedong because it's clear that forGG prepares well for a series, and Flash... 14CCs into macro mode, every game. You're just buying into empty hype if you seriously think Flash is a better contender right now. Mechanics only take you so far.
It's impossible for people to be reasonable on the internet, but at least pretend to try to get this- forGG is really good at Starcraft. He has a strong TvP and TvZ, with a much improved TvT this season. His macro is insane, his timing is pinpoint, he's proven that his preparation is top notch... and his previously laughable micro is improving. He's been quietly on the rise for the past two seasons or so, while Jaedong and Flash were hogging the spotlight. More importantly- forGG and Jaedong are teammates, they know each other's habits and have had lots of hands-on experience against each other. There's going to be a lot of mindgames going on in this MSL final, whereas Jaedong v. Flash... yeah, not so much.
Don't kid yourself- Flash as The Ultimate Weapon needs a reload, because he's been shooting blanks lately. The OSL curse hit, Flash is done, and it remains to be seen if he'll get back into dominating form or if he's going to just be another strong player who doesn't have the spark to win it big anymore.
But if you want to keep thinking that an Ultimate Weapon with mostly blanks in the clip (who got dropped from the OSL by Luxury) would honestly be a better match for Jaedong after he just DISMANTLED Hwasin and Much... Case in point- Flash has had ample opportunity to do a bit of research and see that forGG has been tearing through people with great timing attacks- hell, Flash himself had the chance to play against forGG and lost to a timing attack. So what does Flash do? Instead of preparing for the inevitable timed rush, he just fast expands as usual.
That is not the kind of player who is going to beat Jaedong.
On July 18 2008 03:42 ohhsuup wrote: yea the thing is i really don't know why anyone wants a forgg vs jaedong finals. you really think forgg has a chance, AND you wouldn't rather see FlaSh, ALSO A TERRAN PLAYER BTW, play jaedong??? how can you not want to see 5 incredibely exciting games, unless you think that forgg actually has a chance. idk how you could be a fan of terran and want forgg to play jaedong instead of flash. OR how you could not be a fan of very exciting games, which jaedong vs FlaSh would have given us. if you think forgg has a chance against jaedong well then -_-;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; to you. biggest upset ever if that happens imo.
edit: if forgg wins i'll never post on TL.net again
Did you people even watch the games? fOrGG prepared carefully for FlaShs builds and then came out today and fucking raped him. He knew what FlaSh would do and he knew that his builds would create 5 second windows of opportunities. The games played out exactly as he had planned them to and he executed FlaSh with ease. FlaSh playing like he did today would have gotten raped. I'm really quite hyped to see a fOrGG final. Also this is the second ever teammate final and the first was a fucking legend.
There's two reasons to cheese not just one. As said you can play a more luck-oriented game thus possibly increasing your chances vs someone better than you, then there's the fact that you can prepare and prepare just as hard as the other player but put all your effort and time into something which is unexpected, and concentrated in a few minutes of execution. This is what boxer used to do if i'm not mistaken. With his perfect bunker rushes and his han-bang dropship rapes. Flash should've prepared to face cheese just as hard, and trusted that his later game was dominant enough to suffer the trade of practice time. Super lame though.
On July 18 2008 03:42 ohhsuup wrote: yea the thing is i really don't know why anyone wants a forgg vs jaedong finals. you really think forgg has a chance, AND you wouldn't rather see FlaSh, ALSO A TERRAN PLAYER BTW, play jaedong??? how can you not want to see 5 incredibely exciting games, unless you think that forgg actually has a chance. idk how you could be a fan of terran and want forgg to play jaedong instead of flash. OR how you could not be a fan of very exciting games, which jaedong vs FlaSh would have given us. if you think forgg has a chance against jaedong well then -_-;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; to you. biggest upset ever if that happens imo.
edit: if forgg wins i'll never post on TL.net again
I'd rather see forGG v. Jaedong because it's clear that forGG prepares well for a series, and Flash... 14CCs into macro mode, every game. You're just buying into empty hype if you seriously think Flash is a better contender right now. Mechanics only take you so far.
It's impossible for people to be reasonable on the internet, but at least pretend to try to get this- forGG is really good at Starcraft. He has a strong TvP and TvZ, with a much improved TvT this season. His macro is insane, his timing is pinpoint, he's proven that his preparation is top notch... and his previously laughable micro is improving. He's been quietly on the rise for the past two seasons or so, while Jaedong and Flash were hogging the spotlight. More importantly- forGG and Jaedong are teammates, they know each other's habits and have had lots of hands-on experience against each other. There's going to be a lot of mindgames going on in this MSL final, whereas Jaedong v. Flash... yeah, not so much.
Don't kid yourself- Flash as The Ultimate Weapon needs a reload, because he's been shooting blanks lately. The OSL curse hit, Flash is done, and it remains to be seen if he'll get back into dominating form or if he's going to just be another strong player who doesn't have the spark to win it big anymore.
But if you want to keep thinking that an Ultimate Weapon with mostly blanks in the clip (who got dropped from the OSL by Luxury) would honestly be a better match for Jaedong after he just DISMANTLED Hwasin and Much... Case in point- Flash has had ample opportunity to do a bit of research and see that forGG has been tearing through people with great timing attacks- hell, Flash himself had the chance to play against forGG and lost to a timing attack. So what does Flash do? Instead of preparing for the inevitable timed rush, he just fast expands as usual.
That is not the kind of player who is going to beat Jaedong.
Yes yes, very true. I'm just disappointed in flash for not even reaching the damn finals. I was thinking that FlaSh didn't really try that hard against luxury the 2nd game because he was saving his energy for the MSL/was very surprised from luxury's brilliant strategy in game 1. just like jaedong lost to Hwasin 3 times in proleague before their BO5 series in the MSL. he played dumb for 3 games against hwasin, pretending to not know how to switch up his strategy and making hwasin think that he knew how to beat jaedong. jaedong was doing a test in those games to see if he absolutely had to switch up his strategy in order to counter what hwasin was doing. he even tried it for the first BO5 game of the final, making hwasin think up to the last possible second that he wasn't going to change his strategy. and that's just what jaedong did and an overconfident hwasin tried the same thing he had in the proleague every game in the BO5 and jaedong was too prepared for it. i was expecting jaedong to get to the msl finals no matter how many times he loses in proleague. i was thinking the same about FlaSh but i guess not.
edit: yes, there will be a lot of mind games going into the final but that's not what necessarily makes a good final for spectators. i just think that since they know each other very well, and jaedong being the better player, will take the final easily. jaedong doesn't fuck around in starleague BO5's. he's one of the clutchest progamers ever. anyway, hopefully flash meets jaedong in GOMTV finals
PL games are ho hum games that players don't put that much effort into unless you're (a) boxer, or (b) have a burst of inspiration or want to show something for the fans - ie shark's 2 hatch hive build, or (c) your team really really fucking desperately wants to win, or somethign along these lines.
NO ONE blows off an individual league game. Teams claim that they value proleague over individual leagues but that's a fucking farce. If you actually think players slack off for any of their individual league games I don't know what to say to you.
The only case where it was blatantly obvious players where throwing games was Iris and GGPlay going out in the first round of MSL offline qualifiers a week before their Daum OSL finals match for obvious reasons.
Just finished watching. ForGG rolled Flash. He deserves the finalist spot. I really can't fathom the hate when ForGG played this good and Flash this bad. How do you come up with this crap when it's SO OBVIOUS who entertained?
Get outta here Flash. Jaedong ForGG's gonna be tight.
guys like forGG and Lomo are making me start loving the terrans again... I want forGG to bunker rush jaedong 3 times in a row, but...thats not likely to happen
I've no doubt that forGG played very well and earned his finalist spot, but it's still going to be disappointing not to be able to see a Flash vs Jaedong finals. Aren't they tied 5 games a piece? (Despite Flash winning more series because he won two Bo3s as opposed to Jaedong's win in the Bo5 series) That would have been a pretty epic tiebraker.
If forGG goes all the way, it would be nice if he stayed on the map for a little while longer (much like Bisu when he took down rA) rather than become another lame one-hit wonder that denied us an incredibly epic and hyped match between two titans.
yes ok you're right, players very rarely blow off individual leagues. i just thought it was weird how much flash was shaken up by his 2 supply depots getting destroyed by luxury. his minerals went threw the fucking roof. im sure he was trying it just didn't look like it.
Flash did not deserve to win this. He played worse than ForGG. deal with it. if flash was dumb enough to continue to do greedy builds and not play safe, then he doesn't deserve to be in the finals. and ForGG has probably played a huge amount of games with Jaedong. Imo, if anyone's prepared to take him down in a bo5, he is.
p.s. i hate fanboys who can't accept that their favorite player lost because they were the worse player at that time in that matchup
I'm not THAT much of a FlaSh fanboy. However, I am a very, very big fanboy of EPIC finals where the two great, well established players have a good/long history together, such as sAviOr/NaDa, iloveoov/BoxeR, iloveoov/July and it is a complete tossup who could win. i think jaedong will definitely take this.
edit: hopefully flash doesn't choke in GOMTV against backho ROFL!~
I don't understand why people have the mindset that the OSL/MSL has some nr20 rule or something. If you aren't going to prepare for cheese and play greedy every game, you're going to lose to it. And regardless of how "lame" or "unskilled" fOrGG was for doing those builds, Flash deserved to lose to it if he wasn't going to do anything to stop it.
Would you have called it unfair if Flash did get to the finals and Jaedong exploited the same thing that fOrGG did, 6pooling every game because Flash wasn't going to prepare for it? Because if I were Jaedong, that's what I would do, if I knew Flash was going to play like that. And that wouldn't make for a very epic finals at all, but that's what would have happened if Flash had even made it to the finals playing like that.
I guess it comes down to either playing standard every single game and always having a macro war, or doing what it takes to win. And obviously fOrGG was doing what it took to win, and Flash was not.
well i do agree that a bo5 truly decides who is more prepared to move on in a tournament. it just enrages me that it wasn't flash who was more ready to move on, and meet jaedong in the finals.
Although I am very surprised by the outcome, I would much rather see forgg vs Jaedong since forgg, you know, won. His preparation was pretty brilliant and Flash got rolled. Although the one game he won was pretty good, he absolutely failed in the other three.
forgg deserves this and I hope for a brutal final + Show Spoiler +
(but a brutal and close final, not just brutal like OSL)
ok I just watched all four games and although I love flash he really did deserve to lose. Forgg was a genius for foreseeing flash using his usual economy-based opening, and took FULL advantage of that. I don't consider them cheese strats because Forgg clearly prepared beforehand to counter Flash's turtle strat, and they were just executed beautifully. I expected Flash to win this 3-0 and really wanted to see a Flash vs. Jaedong final but now that I see that Forgg is actually a one base, tactical player I am looking forward to Forgg vs. Jaedong.
On July 18 2008 05:56 ohhsuup wrote: I'm not THAT much of a FlaSh fanboy. However, I am a very, very big fanboy of EPIC finals where the two great, well established players have a good/long history together, such as sAviOr/NaDa, iloveoov/BoxeR, iloveoov/July and it is a complete tossup who could win. i think jaedong will definitely take this.
edit: hopefully flash doesn't choke in GOMTV against backho ROFL!~
Wouldn't have been a very epic final if Flash got there in his current form. ForGG deserved it more, and will make for a much better final. Especially since they're both from the same team, as mentioned many times before. Besides, the only history they have are 3 sets during a short period of time. Don't understand what everyone gets riled up about. ~~
I really wanted to see Flash vs Jaedong more then ForGG vs Jaedong but it should be really good either way. Teammate against Teammate. TvZ. MSL Finals. Jaedong. Still should be epic and produce some gg's~
i think that a forGG/jaedong finals would be quite entertaining
forgg is known for his timing attacks and im looking forward for an epic match-up since both players know each other very well and will prepare for everything that the other one can pull of his sleeves, quite sad though that flash lost but must give props to forgg for doing his homework there
So? It's not gonna work every time. Everyone knows you can't rely on cheese to win games consistently
thats the entire point... you cant rely on it, its not based on skill. its just an easy way to get a win you dont deserve vs someone you arent likely to beat anyway.
well yeah but the worst part is that it was fucking fOrGG cheesing Flash in a fucking semifinal game of a tournament that fOrGG isn't going to win anyway. back when Flash cheese the shit outa people it was as big of a deal because he didn't take people out on the brink of an insanely tight final. he took out Bisu in a bo3 early on in an OSL that Bisu might not have reached the finals to anyway. Flash was probably so fucking sure he was going to beat fOrGG that he didn't practice that much, and instead started practicing against zerg. fucking fOrGG had to be a little cunt and do some unexpected shit, rob all of us, and most people who watch starcraft, of one of the most anticipated finals ever, since Flash and Jaedong have already played each other in 3 series and are equal in games against each other. i was really really hoping for the clutchest player ever vs the most dominant player ever in the most important tournament of the year and now we, all of us, can't watch it thanks to a little jealous bitch named fOrGG.
edit: ......seriously flash?
Cry more???
The better player won today. ForGG has definitely lifted his level of play, from micro, macro, to strategy and timing. Flash, meanwhile has been predictable and unimpressive. If the same Flash advances to the finals, he will just get raped by Jaedong. Flash already got 2-0'ed by Luxury, a weaker version of Jaedong. Or, somehow he will go from showing poor form to becoming a monster overnight? This is all fanboy speculation.
Sure ForGG is not known for his TvZ but who's to say he doesn't stand a chance, especially when he has lifted his game in its entirety. He is Jaedong's teammate and understands him best. His timing could be dangerous to Jaedong, just like how Iris threw off Savior's 3-hatch mutas during the OSL.
What really impressed me was ForGG's micro and his strategy. In game 4, his SCV crossed Flash's SCV. Right there he decided to build his proxy facts because Flash had already passed that area and he wouldn't have thought about coming back. Flash was probably thinking "where's the proxy?? where??!!" ForGG's micro was also pretty good. In game 1, he was microing 2 vultures, 1 running from a tank and the other killing scvs. These games reminded me of Iris's 3-0 of Stork who went FE every game.
I like the new trend of players punishing FE macrowhores for their greediness. Terrans and Protosses have been FE'ing pretty much every game. It's bound to happen that aggressive players take them down and keep the FE'ing in check. Like Silver said, "FE'ing is a privilege, not a right."
Man, TvT has evolved a lot. I just can never stop watching a game that never stops evolving. ForGG has filled up as an Ace for Lecaf so well.
TvT's are so much more aggresive than before. I really enjoyed this series. ForGG brought a hard game and Flash got beat. But game 3 was so sick!!! Flash barely pulled through. But ForGG played so solid and GOOODDdd~~.
Now he goes through the hardest test of all, the TvZ test vs Jaedong.
I mean... has the thought even entered your head?? ForGG... MSL Champion?!?!?!?
Holy shit... that would be nuts.
Yeah, yeah, everyone expects him to lose. I do too. But teammate games are something different. Iris blossomed only because of savior. Who knows what Jaedong vs ForGG will be like. It could be total one-side or grand.
He deserves a shot at a title. Why not? He was good back then and has been improving for a long time. And his run has been very impressive.
Am I the only one who's a little worried for Jaedong? I mean two things specifically worry me. Forgg's ability to intelligently prepare for a match and Forgg's impeccable timing.
From his interview:
- Your strategic value looked better than Flahs's ▷ FlaSh always trys to expand the second command center without a barrack while scouting on the center area and I know that, so I had sort of nice trick up my sleeve such a secret factory. I did try over 5 times with each of my terran teammates and did practice 30 times a day.
No one can deny Jaedong's incredible hive play, in fact most of his ZvT losses occur early to mid game. This totally plays to Forgg's strength, he knows JD very well (But of course JD knows him as well) and he can very well cook up flawless timing pushes in the early to mid game just as he did against flash. This could be another case of Julyzerg vs. Best with Forgg being Julyzerg! On the other hand, Jaedong IS Jaedong. He's really picked up his game in the past month. He's shown unbelievable come backs against Hwaisin and Lomo (Recovering from nicely timed pushes no less) and he's captain clutch, master of the bo5. But I still think it'll be a much closer series than people make it out to be.
On July 18 2008 15:37 Warrior Madness wrote: Am I the only one who's a little worried for Jaedong? I mean two things specifically worry me. Forgg's ability to intelligently prepare for a match and Forgg's impeccable timing.
- Your strategic value looked better than Flahs's ▷ FlaSh always trys to expand the second command center without a barrack while scouting on the center area and I know that, so I had sort of nice trick up my sleeve such a secret factory. I did try over 5 times with each of my terran teammates and did practice 30 times a day.
No one can deny Jaedong's incredible hive play, in fact most of his ZvT losses occur early to mid game. This totally plays to Forgg's strength, he knows JD very well (But of course JD knows him as well) and he can very well cook up flawless timing pushes in the early to mid game just as he did against flash. This could be another case of Julyzerg vs. Best with Forgg being Julyzerg! On the other hand, Jaedong IS Jaedong. He's really picked up his game in the past month. He's shown unbelievable come backs against Hwaisin and Lomo (Recovering from nicely timed pushes no less) and he's captain clutch, master of the bo5. But I still think it'll be a much closer series than people make it out to be.
are you insane? jaedong's lair play and low eco zerg are amazing
On July 18 2008 15:37 Warrior Madness wrote: Am I the only one who's a little worried for Jaedong? I mean two things specifically worry me. Forgg's ability to intelligently prepare for a match and Forgg's impeccable timing.
From his interview:
- Your strategic value looked better than Flahs's ▷ FlaSh always trys to expand the second command center without a barrack while scouting on the center area and I know that, so I had sort of nice trick up my sleeve such a secret factory. I did try over 5 times with each of my terran teammates and did practice 30 times a day.
No one can deny Jaedong's incredible hive play, in fact most of his ZvT losses occur early to mid game. This totally plays to Forgg's strength, he knows JD very well (But of course JD knows him as well) and he can very well cook up flawless timing pushes in the early to mid game just as he did against flash. This could be another case of Julyzerg vs. Best with Forgg being Julyzerg! On the other hand, Jaedong IS Jaedong. He's really picked up his game in the past month. He's shown unbelievable come backs against Hwaisin and Lomo (Recovering from nicely timed pushes no less) and he's captain clutch, master of the bo5. But I still think it'll be a much closer series than people make it out to be.
are you insane? jaedong's lair play and low eco zerg are amazing
Yeah Jaedongs all mutas play are really strong they took out Hwasin in their final game . Jaedong can make magic with his ling too . And his mid game lurkers are amazing as well . If someone wants to win vs Jaedong he should A ) Cheese or a timeing attack and win . B ) Survive past middle game if Jaedong has gone all Mutas or some other low econ strat and deny his expansion attempts if they are late . And C) Just try and kill his 3th or 4th expansion and keep him on 2 if possible or 3 gasses . Well that is easier said then done but if you can't make this 3 possibilitys happen you ain't winning vs Jaedong .
ForGG can outmacro him but Jaedong has great macro as well and he uses his units so cost effectively .Scourging vessels and defilers could break ForGG's macro easily .
This semifinals.... ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL
It's about time someone punish Flash hard for fast expanding ALMOST EVERY FUCKING GAME!!! Since Flash's rise in dominance, Flash set the trend for every Terran and their mom to fast expand 14cc. I hope with ForGG, Terran will have to think twice before expanding so fast.
ForGG did not cheese Flash, he did a rush build. ForGG's build against a 1 factory build will still keep ForGG alive even if his rush fail. The build attempts to counter fast expos builds. It only fails against a fast expand build that survives. ForGG showed in this series that fast expand greedy build should not be the standard or else it will be punish. ForGG's build in game 1 was so well thought out. Fast vulture transition into mass goliaths into dropship. That's knowing that Flash mass tanks before seige (Memory vs Flash game 3 GSI).
This series is similar to Flash vs Stork final with Stork being unprepared. In this case, it's Flash who is unprepared and uninspired.
What's with all the hate for ForGG? He's a rising star. I remember there was so much unneeded hate for players like Bisu & Mind just because they had not won anything yet. So many thought Flash would 3-0 ForGG! Why when Lomo, ForGG's teammate, took Flash to the 5th game? I consider ForGG an even stronger TvT player than Lomo due to proleague.
ForGG will not lose to Jaedong that easy. For one, they are teammates so they know each other's play style. 2nd, IT'S TVZ WITH ZERG ON THE LOSING END ON ALMOST ALL MAPS. 3rd, Jaedong showed a lot of his ace cards against Hwasin. I can't predict the results for the finals, but it won't be 3-0 Jaedong dominance like people are stating as though it is fact.
I don't know if Mind games will play a big part in this finals , because they are teammates , but cathing each other of guard will prove to be effective .
On July 18 2008 18:44 [X]Ken_D wrote: What's with all the hate for ForGG? He's a rising star. I remember there was so much unneeded hate for players like Bisu & Mind just because they had not won anything yet. So many thought Flash would 3-0 ForGG! Why when Lomo, ForGG's teammate, took Flash to the 5th game? I consider ForGG an even stronger TvT player than Lomo due to proleague.
ForGG will not lose to Jaedong that easy. For one, they are teammates so they know each other's play style. 2nd, IT'S TVZ WITH ZERG ON THE LOSING END ON ALMOST ALL MAPS. I can't predict the results for the finals, but it won't be 3-0 Jaedong dominance like people are stating as though it is fact.
I can easly say that what happens in this final would be almost the same as in the Jaedong vs Flash final . Oh wait , but they are actually teammates and could try to surprice each other and i have more faith in ForGG's macro not sliping unlike the Flash vs Luxury Andromeda game . So as i see it ForGG stands a better chance vs Jaedong then Flash .
I think that ForGG's vessel micro will be the turning point in the final . If he can save at least half of his produced vessels it should be close . A good zerg snipes vessels no matter how great the terran micros .
All that said... last season, Mind came into his series against Jaedong with some well studied, well prepared builds... and Jaedong just plowed through them (well, after dropping the first game as usual lol). Dunno if Jaedong is soaring as high as he was going into that MSL, and forGG isn't Mind (for better and for worse), so hopefully cutesy opening builds will transition into some crazy midgame action.
Though... it would be pretty funny if Jaedong was kept out of the OSL by a cheesing teammate, then lost in the MSL final to a cheesing teammate ;(
I don't know what Flash fans are complaining about and the recommendation to just watch the 3rd game is ridiculous. I am neither a fan of Flash nor of forGG (I prefer Jaedong), but I really liked forGG's mind games. This was not cheese, but a really nice prepared strategy, perfectly built to punish the fast CC build, which Flash is so fond of. Besides, I read a lot about forGG's mediocre micro. In this games at least, his micro was top notch and on the spot. And even his multitasking seemd to be OK.
In the second game, Flash tried to "cheese" btw, even though I don't call anything cheese short of 4-5 pool (so, July's first game was rather cheesy , but who wins has done everything right).
EPT![[image loading]](http://i35.tinypic.com/10gzos1.jpg)
fOrGG i just tend to go with statistics as known in TLPD.![[image loading]](http://i37.tinypic.com/soy7i9.png)
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![[image loading]](http://www.xportsnews.com/Portals/0/%EC%97%91%EC%B8%A0%EA%B8%B0%EC%9E%90/%EA%B0%95%EC%9A%B4/080228%20%EC%9D%B4%EC%98%81%ED%98%B8%20%EB%8B%A4%EC%A7%90.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://devnewsimg.mydaily.co.kr/2008/06/19/200806191938503354_1.jpg)
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(Hope you liked it)
