woho, can i watch this on yaoyuan or something.. havent seen any vods in a while and my gom tv and pot player doesnt work anymore due to something i cannot understand coz its in korean;)
Hwasin at 6, Nada at 9. Nada started with some marine harass, killing a bunch of Hwasins SCVs, but Hwasin got early CC. Nada doing some contain with bunker + tank atm.
Hwasin is red at6. Nada is blue at 9. Hwasin expanded with a bunker. While nada is going 1 port/fact pressure with abunker near the choke. 3 marines in it. Wraith firing at hwasins first tank. Hwasins marines out of the bunker. The wraith runs out of range. Siege done for hwasin! Nada is losing his timing. His 2 tanks are sieged and take out the bunker. Hwasin has 2 tanks but they are out of range of nadas and Nada is firing at the CC! CC at red! RED CC!! CCCCCC!!!
Holy shit hwasin repairs just in time. Nada doing great damage though. Hwasin moved his tanks in desperation to take out nadas. Nada killed them with 2 tanks left and took out some scvs.
Hwasin got 1 tank + 1 wraith vs Nadas 2 tank 2 wraith. He almost lost his CC since he didn't bother repairing. Nada adding another starport, Hwasin lifting his CC exp, instead holding ramp.
Hwasins cc is in the air, it was at less than 100 life lol. Nada going 2 port before armory. Keeping his contain. His expo is online as expected. He has a scv , most likely to spot for drop in the bottom left. Hwasin has switched to wraiths hoping to catch nada off gard. But only 2 of t hem. Nada has scan ready and an ebay just finished. The spotter scv starts a turret.
Hwasin lands his cc but the tanks are still there. Hwasin getting RAPED! He sieges 3 more tanks in range of nadas to clear the pressure but nada has more tanks AND more wraiths. All of hwasins wraiths die as well as all the tanks.
Hwasin landed his CC, only to get sieged on by Nada's tanks. He tries to use his 3 tanks to fight back, but he loses 1 tank to Nada's tanks before siege is even done. NaDa's wraith comes in and picks off another tank. Hwasin tries to fight back with his own wraiths but doesn't have enough. NaDa continues to dispatch Hwasin's scarce army. Hwasin GG's.
that was such a nice game plan from nada he opts against the vulture and instead goes directly for 1fact w/ addon + 1star, followed up by 2nd star and then finally CC.
he knew that if he went CC after vult then he'd be behind in econ so he just went in for the kill.
Fuck Daum! It is worse than ever today : I missed the wholed game. Now I have installed GOM player which seems to run fine. Just in time to watch GrandpaToss beat the crap out of OverHypedHero. Much was dismal a few weeks ago, but his games vs Bisu and Mind were brilliant. EZ rape here. Too bad we have to wait until next week to see him humilate FBH with a ceremony of his own.
i dont get it how 14cc can actually be good in tvt;) if the other player starts with 1 fact build and proxy another fact as soon as he scouts 14 cc. Pump tank from the first and vult from the other and 14cc cant do anything.
ur siegemode will be much earlier than his and your vults will protect from his scvs. also u can bring some scvs to repair, and ofcourse float the rax.
Ok I'm calling double proxy rax cheese from FBH. FE is extremely common on this map. Much might predict that though and open 1 gate goon range.
What I'd really like to see though is a quick wall in from fbh. Then proxy 2 rax outside of base --> acad ---> mnm rush after blocking the scout with first few rines. In a straight up game FBH has no chance in my opinion.
On May 29 2008 19:02 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Ok I'm calling double proxy rax cheese from FBH. FE is extremely common on this map. Much might predict that though and open 1 gate goon range.
On May 29 2008 19:01 AnOth3rDAy wrote: i dont get it how 14cc can actually be good in tvt;) if the other player starts with 1 fact build and proxy another fact as soon as he scouts 14 cc. Pump tank from the first and vult from the other and 14cc cant do anything.
ur siegemode will be much earlier than his and your vults will protect from his scvs. also u can bring some scvs to repair, and ofcourse float the rax.
...because the players dont have map hack.
Sure that build you described is pretty strong against a 14 cc but it is absolutely raped by a 1 fact cc build.
On May 29 2008 19:02 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Ok I'm calling double proxy rax cheese from FBH. FE is extremely common on this map. Much might predict that though and open 1 gate goon range.
i predict a solid firebat+wraith combo from BraQ.
It is, of course, the optimal anti-air/anti-ground combo.
FBH making a depot at his choke, then a rax, no scv out so I guess there will be no sexy cheese. Much made a pylon near his nexus then 14 nexused. What a suprise...common fbh you shouldve predicted this. I'm not pro gamer but I could do it.
On May 29 2008 19:01 AnOth3rDAy wrote: i dont get it how 14cc can actually be good in tvt;) if the other player starts with 1 fact build and proxy another fact as soon as he scouts 14 cc. Pump tank from the first and vult from the other and 14cc cant do anything.
ur siegemode will be much earlier than his and your vults will protect from his scvs. also u can bring some scvs to repair, and ofcourse float the rax.
...because the players dont have map hack.
Sure that build you described is pretty strong against a 14 cc but it is absolutely raped by a 1 fact cc build.
uhm, i said you should proxy another fact if you scout that he is actually doing 14 CC, if he isnt, then dont proxy another fact. And you dont need maphack to scout that in time.
FBH leaves the protoss base with his scouting scv still alive. Much chasing it. The camera following it for some reason Much starts a citadel! Much chased the scv all the way to the top right and killed it lol.
2 goons out looking to pressure. FBH's cc is now online. Second fact almost done, siege ready. Much adds archieves and starport at the same time. Arbiter rush!
Acad about to finish for FBH, so he won't be dying from lack of s couting like flash Ebay also about to finish. Much starting his third. This looks like it's setting upto be a total rape unless fbh pulls off a perfectly timed push. Don't think he has the tvp skills to do that though to be honest. FBH harasses the pylon wall at the ramp of much's 2nd expo with 4 double upgraded ults. THEY GO BACK AROUND AND PENETRATE TO THE BACK OF THE MIN LINE. Mines are laid but much calmly and solidly micros to minimize loses. Like 1 goon 1 zeal and a couple probes for 4 vults.
FBH is taking his 3rd. Arbiter out! Much adding his 5th 6th and 7th gates. FBH with great timing! He is sieged just below the 2nd nat of FBH. THe pylon wall is down and vults force all the probes to run. Much without obs at the moment, but very soon. FBH seems to lack scans but he takes out the nexus! Looks like he does have the skills after all:D
FBH clearly ahead. 2 armories and a 3rd. He swings around and attacks the front choke. Much breaks the push with great micro, spreading his units beautifully. Starport just now started for fbh. Obs ready for much now. Hes clearing the mines from the center. 2 arbs out one with lots of energy. FBH has responded with spread turrets and scattered mines around his expos/base perimeter.
Much has rebuilt his 3rd and added cannons. Arb en route! Marines sees it!? RECALL!!!! RIGHT ON A FUCKING MINE! The recall is crushed AND an arbiter is lost! FBH in great shape this game. 2 templar out now. Much taking hs min only but 2 mines can see it.
FBH has 7 or so facts and his sci facility is done. Hes unsieging. Ok he resieges Vults looking to harass but goons deny that quickly and they turn back, laying mines. Much's 4 th online. Both players with very large armyies. FBH floating his 4th cc to the min only. Tanks on the high ground guarding it.
Much taking the nat at 3. Vult raid on the min only! A few probes die but a quick probe pull minimizes the damage. Much taking the main now at 3! FBH MOVING OUT! 1/1 grades! It will all come down to micro and how cocky/fast fbh pushes. MUCH MOVING IN! HUGE STATIS! GETS A CLUMP OF TANKS AND THE VESSEL. MUCH CRUSHES THE TERRAN ARMY WITH GREAT STORMS RIGHT AFTER! Wow much. Ok hear comes the rest of the terran reenforcements, it was off camera. Its not very effective though. Much pressing on, very cost effecitvely. 3 arbs in the air and a p army twice the size of terrans. A small force attacks the min only. Great statis gets all the high ground tanks defending but 4 more are moved over. FBH lifts and much retreats. Minor vult harass at the top right main and nat but 2cannons at each base prevent any real damage.
Ok double recall at the terran nat! 2 mines are there but spread so only one does any damage. FBH's army IS there though and crush's the recall. Much loses his min only to vult harass I'm assuming. THe recalls did by time but not very much. Here comes FBH! Emp on one arb! Huge statis on 6 tanks but FBH's 2-1 army too strong. Much returns to his base. FBH has takin another min only to the north and a cc at the 2nd nat there has just finished. Small forces harassing much's army at the top, 2 tanks and 6 vults or so. 2 stargates for much.
Much is in TROUBLE. 4 gates have made at the top right base. Much is very very low onobs though it seems. He attacks the strong push at his front with a pitifully small army and quickly turns back.
much in much trouble now, FBH has harassed his top expansions pretty well! and much got caught in a fight he didnt want to be in and lost a lot of stuff
MUCHH! He breaks the push at the front when most of the t army is busy raping the entire top half of the map Much simply does not have nearly enough obs. Mines have chewed him up pretty bad. He moves down to try to take out the closest min only but FBH is ready and wastes the army.
Much throws a statis over all the scvs there and ggs
FBH suprised me this game. Looks like hes really been working on his TvP. He played it very very well. Although I didnt really like much's decesion to use recall without solid obs spotting to ensure it was a good idea(he had no obs where he was recalling), nor his lack of obs in general. Much's upgrades were very very late too.
Still, all credit to FBH. When he hit 2/1 he was unstopable.
I may start to give credit to FBH. He has stopped his silly humiliating ceremonies, and his macro this game was superb. Much's storms and stasis and micro in general were godly, so great job FBH. Die next time.
On May 29 2008 19:45 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Ooooo 9 pool from kwanro. 8 rax from lomo! Kwanro scouts cross map. Sees the 8 rax right away. Hilarious openings lmao.
Of course he scouts cross map, this is a 2-player map, genius.
Ok lomo hiding 4 marines behind his rax. He scouted the lings in time, started a depot at the choke and quickly canceld it. Lings and rines dancing near the rax. Lomo needs to be very very careful. 6 lings run by to the south. Awesome flank from kwanro! But lomo barely survives with one rine. 4 more lings on there way! 2 go down. WHEW 2 rines make it in the bunker. Kwanro with low drone count but 3rd hatch started and nat done.
Kwanro runs 12 lings around the blocade and into the T main. Some nice micro handles them with scvs pulled. Only a few loses. Kwanro still at very low drones. 12 or so. Speed done! 12 lings harassing the nat min line! A few s cvs go down. NIcely done by lomo handles the attack with something like 3 scvs and 3 rines lost. Kwanro doing his trademark hardcore speedling harass while still teching quickly.
On May 29 2008 19:45 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: Ooooo 9 pool from kwanro. 8 rax from lomo! Kwanro scouts cross map. Sees the 8 rax right away. Hilarious openings lmao.
Of course he scouts cross map, this is a 2-player map, genius.
Ya I remember like right after I posted this and felt stupid You don't have a lot of time to think very well when you're constantly typing.
Kwanro loses about 6 ling to a stimed mnm group with 1 bat. He arrives at t he zerg choke with the same group but kwanro has 2 sunks in time and 3rd morphing. Kwanro breifly harasses the T min line. But pulls back as Lomo is breaking the sunk line! 2 sunks down! The third finishes just in time but Lomo nicely runs by and does some drone damage...5-6 or so? Mutas are out. Lomo relentless though and meets them in the middle. One goes down right away, the rest avoid that group and pick off a aturret near the ramp.
Kwanro up to 9 or so mutas..maybe 10. And a group of 10 or so lings. Kwanro picking off 2 marines and TWO MEDICS ouch. Lomo still has 3 medics left though so I guess its not so bad. Nice turret setup in the main. 3 covering the whole base. 3 also near the gas at the nat. Kwanro's thrid is started. More marines lost to nice micro.
Kwanro losing mutas, he has a evo chamber and hydra den now though. But his mutas are completely out of steam. His ling harass failed pretty bad and put him in a horrible position. Lomo rapes the rest of the mutas and some lings and arrives at the nat right when 5 lurks hatch. Lomo rapes them all with fucking fanastic targeting LMAO. 4 more finish and lomo picks off 2 of them before his mnm army finally crumbles. THe medics live t hough, yay.
Lomo trying to continue the pressure. Gets a litle sloppy and loses some marine to 5 lurks at the nat. Wow lomo has nice reactions against lurk. Quickly targeting and running like a progamer should
Oooo kwanro snipes a vessel though. Hes breaking the neutral builds at the top of kwanro's side of the map to pressure the expos. Ouch another vessel down. Lomo has taken the bottom left and saves the neutral building guarding it with an mnm force. Lomo pressuing with a small but very very nicely controled force at the top through the opening he made. With great control he picks off 4 or so lurks + lings trying to defend it and then rapes the drones at the expo. Kwanro GGs.
Proxied(as in not in the main above the ramp) 8 rax vs 9 pool is a very tough situation for T. Lomo did well to deflect all the ling harass and put himself at a great advantage against the mutas.
On May 29 2008 20:06 Too_MuchZerg wrote: hah what a game... both played so bad but well zerg little worst this time and lost
How did lomo play "so bad" exactly? He was at 4 base when he won. Thats why his vessel use was sloppy. Kwanro was focusing on sniping vessels while Lomo was focusing on macroing like a beast while constantly pressuring with his main force.
On May 29 2008 19:57 diehilde wrote: what a sloppy game from both ^^
Lomo played very very well...
His marine micro in the beginning was very good. he just managed to stay alive and I dont think, many Ts would have survived the zergling rush. His worker-marine micro was just brilliant
On May 29 2008 19:57 diehilde wrote: what a sloppy game from both ^^
Lomo played very very well...
His marine micro in the beginning was very good. he just managed to stay alive and I dont think, many Ts would have survived the zergling rush. His worker-marine micro was just brilliant
Agreed. Well the top level terrans would. But not many, like you said.
lol that probe running around the nat was the most tense thing EVER...if he had seen just ONE hydra hatch, lol. I gotta say that was kind of unlucky for toss
On May 29 2008 20:22 StRyKeR wrote: lol that probe running around the nat was the most tense thing EVER...if he had seen just ONE hydra hatch, lol. I gotta say that was kind of unlucky for toss
that should be how all greedy tosses should die
Ya that was intense. If he HAD seen a hydra he lays down as many cannons as possible asap and wins the game with an unbelieveable macro advantage.
Well LuCifer was just really unlucky there. If he sent that probe a little later, or if the probe had survived a little longer, he would have been able to win by seeing the Hydralisks.
All in all, I don't think this match proved anything.
On May 29 2008 20:22 StRyKeR wrote: lol that probe running around the nat was the most tense thing EVER...if he had seen just ONE hydra hatch, lol. I gotta say that was kind of unlucky for toss
that should be how all greedy tosses should die
Ya that was intense. If he HAD seen a hydra he lays down as many cannons as possible asap and wins the game with an unbelieveable macro advantage.
I was a bit disappointed in Lucifer's play back there. Of course 2hatch hydra couters FE/sair, and he should know that better than most. Of course, the time when zerg would want to push is right as the first sair pops, but before it has actually scouted anything, or maybe a bit earlier than that. With overlords, this timing is not extremely hard for zerg to pull of. Knowing that critical weak time in his build, I think Lucifer should have scouted even more relentless. He of course knew the timing somewhat, since he had a probe there around the right time, but it was off by like 10 seconds, and after that it was basically over. Wouldn't it generally be worth it for protoss to pull more probes to scout, to really make sure not to miss that timing? If it is a hydra push, you have the best chance to hold it of, and gain a huge advantage. If he is not, you will be able to scout it soon enough, and that shouldn't put his econ too for behind whatever build Zerg wants to do.
On May 29 2008 22:26 Tinithor wrote: Lame JD cheesed Lucifer...
hydra-break is not cheese
and the age of forge FE corsair is over and was lame anyways
Yes it is. Hydra breaks relies on the toss not knowing that it's coming and if it fails you can't get back into the game. Any strat that needs to stay hidden in order to work is cheese especially if the game ends once it fails.
On May 29 2008 20:22 StRyKeR wrote: lol that probe running around the nat was the most tense thing EVER...if he had seen just ONE hydra hatch, lol. I gotta say that was kind of unlucky for toss
that should be how all greedy tosses should die
Ya that was intense. If he HAD seen a hydra he lays down as many cannons as possible asap and wins the game with an unbelieveable macro advantage.
Ok I don't think they have reduced the price on cannons to 0
On May 29 2008 22:26 Tinithor wrote: Lame JD cheesed Lucifer...
hydra-break is not cheese
and the age of forge FE corsair is over and was lame anyways
Yes it is. Hydra breaks relies on the toss not knowing that it's coming and if it fails you can't get back into the game. Any strat that needs to stay hidden in order to work is cheese especially if the game ends once it fails.
On May 29 2008 20:22 StRyKeR wrote: lol that probe running around the nat was the most tense thing EVER...if he had seen just ONE hydra hatch, lol. I gotta say that was kind of unlucky for toss
that should be how all greedy tosses should die
Ya that was intense. If he HAD seen a hydra he lays down as many cannons as possible asap and wins the game with an unbelieveable macro advantage.
Ok I don't think they have reduced the price on cannons to 0
Giving up larvae to make enough hydra for a break means your economy will be pathetic and if you do it from 2 hatch there's not enough larvae to make both hydras and drones. Show me a game where a hydra break failed and it went into late game without any problem.
I really like this play from Jaedong, even though the part I've always liked most about Jaedong is his strength in being able to play straight up every game and remain as strong as he is. It's good that he's showing that he can be dangerous in more than just his ridiculously strong mechanics and micro skills. He does play zerg, after all.
On May 29 2008 22:26 Tinithor wrote: Lame JD cheesed Lucifer...
hydra-break is not cheese
and the age of forge FE corsair is over and was lame anyways
Any strat that needs to stay hidden in order to work is cheese especially if the game ends once it fails.
So a bunker rush wouldn't be considered cheese? Or a 9/10 gate? Because I've played and seen plenty of games where the game continues after the "cheese" fails.
that was like the shakiest build ever.. Lucifer made crap cannons with bad positioning, and only 1 zealot? Jaedong couldve take out the pylon and make gg faster.
even if he didnt see hydras, I dont think he is prepared for mutas as well.
On May 30 2008 03:21 anch wrote: that was like the shakiest build ever.. Lucifer made crap cannons with bad positioning, and only 1 zealot? Jaedong couldve take out the pylon and make gg faster.
even if he didnt see hydras, I dont think he is prepared for mutas as well.
Standard FE vs 3 hatch build. "Shaky" is subjective. 3 hatch muta come later and 2 hatch muta could have possibly been blocked with the fast corsairs +cannons. You could call FD "shaky" vs a 1 base, 3 gate zealot speed push. Think.
On May 29 2008 20:22 StRyKeR wrote: lol that probe running around the nat was the most tense thing EVER...if he had seen just ONE hydra hatch, lol. I gotta say that was kind of unlucky for toss
that should be how all greedy tosses should die
Ya that was intense. If he HAD seen a hydra he lays down as many cannons as possible asap and wins the game with an unbelieveable macro advantage.
Ok I don't think they have reduced the price on cannons to 0
Giving up larvae to make enough hydra for a break means your economy will be pathetic and if you do it from 2 hatch there's not enough larvae to make both hydras and drones. Show me a game where a hydra break failed and it went into late game without any problem.
I could show you a game where 4 - 5 pools fail without doing shit , and zerg still win vs FE protoss
On May 29 2008 20:22 StRyKeR wrote: lol that probe running around the nat was the most tense thing EVER...if he had seen just ONE hydra hatch, lol. I gotta say that was kind of unlucky for toss
that should be how all greedy tosses should die
Ya that was intense. If he HAD seen a hydra he lays down as many cannons as possible asap and wins the game with an unbelieveable macro advantage.
Ok I don't think they have reduced the price on cannons to 0
Giving up larvae to make enough hydra for a break means your economy will be pathetic and if you do it from 2 hatch there's not enough larvae to make both hydras and drones. Show me a game where a hydra break failed and it went into late game without any problem.
I could show you a game where 4 - 5 pools fail without doing shit , and zerg still win vs FE protoss
I could show you a game where protoss is afk and then zerg leaves after 3 minutes.
On May 29 2008 20:22 StRyKeR wrote: lol that probe running around the nat was the most tense thing EVER...if he had seen just ONE hydra hatch, lol. I gotta say that was kind of unlucky for toss
that should be how all greedy tosses should die
Ya that was intense. If he HAD seen a hydra he lays down as many cannons as possible asap and wins the game with an unbelieveable macro advantage.
Ok I don't think they have reduced the price on cannons to 0
Giving up larvae to make enough hydra for a break means your economy will be pathetic and if you do it from 2 hatch there's not enough larvae to make both hydras and drones. Show me a game where a hydra break failed and it went into late game without any problem.
I could show you a game where 4 - 5 pools fail without doing shit , and zerg still win vs FE protoss
One or two games won't prove your point. 95% of failed 4-5 pool builds lose to FE. Same goes for failed hydra all-ins.
On May 29 2008 22:26 Tinithor wrote: Lame JD cheesed Lucifer...
hydra-break is not cheese
and the age of forge FE corsair is over and was lame anyways
Any strat that needs to stay hidden in order to work is cheese especially if the game ends once it fails.
So a bunker rush wouldn't be considered cheese? Or a 9/10 gate? Because I've played and seen plenty of games where the game continues after the "cheese" fails.
Do you know the meaning of the word fail? If a bunker rush leaves a zerg with 2 drones then yes the terran can go into late game very easily, there are also variations of how all-in you're going with the bunker rush like 8 rax of 14 rax where you place it and how cheesy the follow up is.
On May 29 2008 20:22 StRyKeR wrote: lol that probe running around the nat was the most tense thing EVER...if he had seen just ONE hydra hatch, lol. I gotta say that was kind of unlucky for toss
that should be how all greedy tosses should die
Ya that was intense. If he HAD seen a hydra he lays down as many cannons as possible asap and wins the game with an unbelieveable macro advantage.
Ok I don't think they have reduced the price on cannons to 0
Giving up larvae to make enough hydra for a break means your economy will be pathetic and if you do it from 2 hatch there's not enough larvae to make both hydras and drones. Show me a game where a hydra break failed and it went into late game without any problem.
I could show you a game where 4 - 5 pools fail without doing shit , and zerg still win vs FE protoss
And I can show you a game of a computer easy losing to mass queens what kind of a retarded post is that? there's absolutely no way to get back into the game after a 4 pool you either win or lose. Maybe 1/10000000000 games both players lose so much that the game goes back to normal and they macro up but this is just a rare case. Jaedong went allin he had about 5 drones to lucifers 12 at each base if lucifer got reavers before corsair or whatever he was getting it would be a completely different game so it was kinda lucky kinda cheesy.
On May 30 2008 06:07 Tinithor wrote: As far as i'm concerned JD got lucky.
ban
lol i've seen this tinithor guy since the beginning of the Arena MSL thread apparently becoming enraged that anyone dare think Jaedong will beat Lucifer. You've got things mixed up, pal.
On May 29 2008 20:22 StRyKeR wrote: lol that probe running around the nat was the most tense thing EVER...if he had seen just ONE hydra hatch, lol. I gotta say that was kind of unlucky for toss
that should be how all greedy tosses should die
Ya that was intense. If he HAD seen a hydra he lays down as many cannons as possible asap and wins the game with an unbelieveable macro advantage.
Ok I don't think they have reduced the price on cannons to 0
Giving up larvae to make enough hydra for a break means your economy will be pathetic and if you do it from 2 hatch there's not enough larvae to make both hydras and drones. Show me a game where a hydra break failed and it went into late game without any problem.
I could show you a game where 4 - 5 pools fail without doing shit , and zerg still win vs FE protoss
And I can show you a game of a computer easy losing to mass queens what kind of a retarded post is that? there's absolutely no way to get back into the game after a 4 pool you either win or lose. Maybe 1/10000000000 games both players lose so much that the game goes back to normal and they macro up but this is just a rare case. Jaedong went allin he had about 5 drones to lucifers 12 at each base if lucifer got reavers before corsair or whatever he was getting it would be a completely different game so it was kinda lucky kinda cheesy.
Who the fuck goes FE into reaver before sair? That would be a horrible build with no point. When you FE, you risk losing to hydra break. The only way to stop it is through constant scouting with probes and then throwing up mass cannons, and Jaedong killed Lucifer's original probe fast so it opened the hydra break for him. He then chased away a second probe with zerglings just long enough as his hydras was going towards his base I don't consider this instance cheese because Jaedong created the opportunity by killing the probe, and also having an overlord right at the choke to see what was at the choke; generally, builds considered cheese are set in mind at the very beginning, such as how Flash did BSB in game 2 of Bacchus OSL against Stork. What Jaedong did was an evolving, culminating decision throughout the game that was correct and executed well.
On May 30 2008 07:05 ._. wrote: How the hell does a protoss stop an attack like that?
So hard to see when its coming..:|
If you can't get direct visual confirmation, you try to sniff it out, the way a Terran sniffs out a tech (DT or reaver) drop. If things don't add up, such as goon count, expansion timing, and you are fast expanding, you generally want to put up turrets/mines asap. The same goes for hydra break. The key in this game was that Lucifer lost that first probe relatively fast (although I believe it was alive long enough to see the faster extractor). Lucifer played bad in that he lost the probe, didn't play safe as a result of seeing that fast extractor, and that he wasn't scouting around for the third hatchery - if you noticed, Jaedong put zerglings at another possible expansion entrance to try to fool Lucifer. Jaedong obviously caught wind of all these factors and made the right decision. Lucifer got owned.
Luck or not, it was Lucifer's fault for not keeping that scout alive for just a few more seconds. Also, he should have known something was up when he saw Jaedong's fast gas.
He executed the break well and he timed it correctly. He knew that lucifer got 2 cannons on his nat and a lone zealot because of his scouting ovie. So he knew that the push would work and by no means it was luck based. Maybe lucifer placed few cannons on his nat but i wouldn't blame him, his scouting probe was killed quickly and the succeeding ones were chased away before even seeing the hydras.
No one goes reaver before air but if you think a hydra break is coming it would stop it he had to guess what's going to happen instead of being sure about it, jaedong got lucky that he guessed wrong there wasn't anything lucifer could've done better. Jaedong might have done it because of how everything went but he probably had all of this planned because lucifer would expect him to play standard. His actual break wasn't anything special a C+ player could have executed that just as well as he did all you really do is target the cannons and win.
Stop bagging on Jaedong- if anything, Lucifer is the one who played poorly. Jaedong denied his scouting and Lucifer responded poorly to the fast gas he should have saw with his first probe.
Jaedong is a one of the few players that can stand out of the rest so hes amazing no doubt about it but the way he won wasn't special. Let's say lucifer had reacted to the fast gas and build alot of defense, skiped corsair for reaver and jaedong knowing that lucifer would do this just pumped nothing but drones and took over the map? Lucifer would lose again, it's like going 9 pool speedlings on bluestorm and then taking 2 more expos after killing the scout the toss has no idea if ur going to do an allin break or macro up.
Kids, kids. The game you're looking for is right here:
Luxury vs Bisu. Lux 5pools and it 'fails', but he ends up winning 10-15 minutes later anyhow. Now can we stop the silly blanket statements regarding all-in builds and what not? It's all about how much damage it does to your opponent vs how far behind you are in economy because of it. If you do significant enough damage, you can go into the mid and late game still holding the advantage.
I'd honestly go as far as to say that 'all-in' is a pretty bad way of putting things. Sure, if your entire hydra break gets taken out by the opponent's first reaver before you're able to take anything but a cannon and a couple zealots down, you're going to lose. However, a good percentage of the time the zerg player is going to do enough damage to at least stay in the game, if not win it.
Even calling it riskier to go for a break in ZvP is stretching it, because a lot of the time it's riskier letting the Protoss do what they want behind that wall and play for the unbeatable late game army.
Edit: My apologies to the Bisu fans out there for bringing this game up again.
On May 29 2008 19:01 AnOth3rDAy wrote: i dont get it how 14cc can actually be good in tvt;) if the other player starts with 1 fact build and proxy another fact as soon as he scouts 14 cc. Pump tank from the first and vult from the other and 14cc cant do anything.
ur siegemode will be much earlier than his and your vults will protect from his scvs. also u can bring some scvs to repair, and ofcourse float the rax.
...because the players dont have map hack.
Sure that build you described is pretty strong against a 14 cc but it is absolutely raped by a 1 fact cc build.
uhm, i said you should proxy another fact if you scout that he is actually doing 14 CC, if he isnt, then dont proxy another fact. And you dont need maphack to scout that in time.
A proxy fac might not be that good IF your attack fails and he manages to hold his nat because you will be far behind economically. If it's a 4 player map it's uncommon to scout a 14 CC that early, since most terrans scout after they have built their first barracks, so the "maphack" comment is valid