I read both the most recent post and the edited post above. Im not seeing the connection being me being a racepicker, and then suddenly cheating by subbing some1 else in for another matchup. If I play (PvT PvZ ZvP PvR), I consider that my race, so if I get matched up against a (PvT PvP PvZ PvR) player aka a normal protoss, ill be playing ZvP, and if I have to sub id have a teammate play zerg if I need to sub out, since that is the matchup that weve both been preparing.

rauk

United States2228 Posts

August 24 2017 06:52 GMT

#162

nah i think he's saying you can't play PvT, PvZ, ZvP. you have to blind pick either Z or P for the map

Psyonic_Reaver

United States4341 Posts

August 24 2017 06:53 GMT

#163

No. If you say you're protoss on Tau Cross and then you find out your opponent is also Protoss. The MU is LOCKED to PvP on Tau Cross. YOU CANT RACE PICK. Either Play a ZERG or play a PROTOSS or a TERRAN but not this fucking bullshit of well I want to pick the BEST race. Korean ProLeague has NEVER allowed that. EVER. NEVER.

FyRe_DragOn

Canada2056 Posts

August 24 2017 06:54 GMT

#164

and what is the reason for that? Is there a benefit to any player, to balance the fact that you are handicapping me and every other racepicker?

Psyonic_Reaver

United States4341 Posts

August 24 2017 06:54 GMT

#165

Because it's a fucking pain in the ass to deal with as example in this thread thus far.

FyRe_DragOn

Canada2056 Posts

August 24 2017 06:58 GMT

#166

I simply state my race vs P, race vs T, race vs Z, and race vs R or other racepickers that dont share my any matchup. (PvZ PvT ZvP PvR) The opponent does the same, and then we play whatever matchup that ends up being. You literally dont have to do anything extra, what is the pain in the ass?

Psyonic_Reaver

United States4341 Posts

August 24 2017 07:02 GMT

#167

Because I don't want to have to remember what everyone's PREFERRED style is. I want to just post the lineups and be done with it. If we get two teams of race pickers then it takes MORE time to nitpick the details and who is playing what and where and how and why. It's a headache as an ADMIN to remember.

Let's say there are 30 race pickers out of the 90 players in this so far. I have to remember which team and which MU and how and who and what. It's extra work that does NOT need to be.

Korean ProLeague does NOT allow it, NEVER allowed it.

I'M NOT ALLOWING IT.

THIS IS FINAL.

FyRe_DragOn

Canada2056 Posts

August 24 2017 07:23 GMT

#168

Im hearing that you dont want to do extra work, but im not seeing any extra work to be done. Youd still be doing exactly the same thing, the players can read PvT ZvP PvZ PvR and infer what matchup they are playing, youd just have to copy/paste the lineup and be done with it, same as you would if instead of (PvT ZvP PvZ PvR), there was PROTOSS.

If there are 30 racepickers out of the 90 players so far, do you really want to force 1/3 of your players to offrace?

I thought this was an attempt to create a friendly clanleague and grow the competitive scene in the americas, not a tournament run by KESPA. I would think that the goals stated in your OP are best served by allowing players to play the race or matchups they are best at, but I guess you disagree.

I respect your authority on this matter and I wont argue any more, but I hope you will reconsider. I could even help with any extra admin duties derived from people racepicking, whatever those might be.

TelecoM

United States10700 Posts

August 24 2017 12:50 GMT

#169

Wow who cares FyRe_DragOn, either pick a race or don't play, this is a for fun league, it's not all about winning any way possible, you are unbelievably pushy for something that won't happen.

BeastJaehoon

9 Posts

August 24 2017 13:34 GMT

#170

So... no good reason just wants to fuck players that have a history in foreign scene and won tournaments using racepicking just because you dont "feel like it" .Nice mentality already. Speaks a lot for how this league will be run.

Greth

Belgium318 Posts

August 24 2017 13:55 GMT

#171

On August 24 2017 22:34 BeastJaehoon wrote:
So... no good reason just wants to fuck players that have a history in foreign scene and won tournaments using racepicking just because you dont "feel like it" .Nice mentality already. Speaks a lot for how this league will be run.

This is meant to be accessible for all. And yes, this volunteer effort is designed to specifically screw over those that want to chance race depending on map and matchup.

How about, as Psy has stated, that it would simply complicate keeping track of these things. This is going to be a clusterfuck and a whinefest regardless of any additional fuckery with matchups - and by the looks of things a pretty big bullet will be dodged by just showing some authority from the start.

Hey! Brood War in 2017! Fuck this shit, amiright? We're losers for even trying! lolz!

Psyonic_Reaver

United States4341 Posts

August 24 2017 14:41 GMT

#172

If this was something that was brought up as a concern weeks ago when I first posted this we could have discussed and work something out but trying to have me change something last minute a day before I'm supposed to officially start everything I'm not going to go through with changing things up right now

Radivel-X17

Canada144 Posts

August 24 2017 16:05 GMT

#173

Race picking also presents this scenario:

Dragon wants to pick his ZvP, but because race picking is allowed, his normally P opponent always race picks T when his opponent goes Z.

Well, now what? Who "wins"?

In other words, just avoid the hassle and play normally. If you don't want to play one particular matchup, practice and get good at it.

Eywa-

Canada4876 Posts

August 24 2017 16:39 GMT

#174

Honestly, in a world where race picking is allowed, someone could gain a significant advantage by race picking ZvZ, PvP and TvT because those are the least popular and least practiced matchups.

Best to stop discussing race picking altogether though since the verdict has already been delivered.

FyRe_DragOn

Canada2056 Posts

August 24 2017 17:25 GMT

#175

On August 24 2017 23:41 Psyonic_Reaver wrote:
If this was something that was brought up as a concern weeks ago when I first posted this we could have discussed and work something out but trying to have me change something last minute a day before I'm supposed to officially start everything I'm not going to go through with changing things up right now

There is literally nothing to change lol, and the reason I didnt bring it up is because I thought that me playing matchups wouldnt be a problem, like in every other tournament ive played in before.

FyRe_DragOn

Canada2056 Posts

August 24 2017 17:29 GMT

#176

On August 25 2017 01:05 Radivel-X17 wrote:
Race picking also presents this scenario:

Dragon wants to pick his ZvP, but because race picking is allowed, his normally P opponent always race picks T when his opponent goes Z.

Well, now what? Who "wins"?

In other words, just avoid the hassle and play normally. If you don't want to play one particular matchup, practice and get good at it.

Then ive already explained how this works, if we dont share a common matchup then wed both play the race we designated to play against randoms or other racepickers, in this case toss for me. I hope you realize that "play normally" means ZvP PvZ PvT to me, its what ive done for 10+ years

EndingLife

United States1599 Posts

August 24 2017 17:57 GMT

#177

Wow. Just wow.... "Korean ProLeague does NOT allow it, NEVER allowed it"
What does Proleague have to do with a small, foreign BW tournament?
Making players play with their off-race isn't good for the players, as they have to play a matchup they don't normally play.
It's not good for the viewers to have to watch good players use their offrace.
Also, no random? Wow... This seemed like an interesting and fun league to play in, but I quickly lost interest after reading the rules and regulations today.

Psyonic_Reaver

United States4341 Posts

August 24 2017 18:01 GMT

#178

Name a major tournament that has allowed it.

Blizzcon?
WCS?
ESL?
Redbull?
Dreamhack?
WCG?
MSL?
OSL?
GSL?

I get that this tournament is for fun but I've stated this clearly that it would be following a ProLeague format. This is how I am running it.

Now drop it everyone and start practicing. This is my last post regarding the issue.

FyRe_DragOn

Canada2056 Posts

August 24 2017 18:19 GMT

#179

All major foreign tournaments since forever have allowed it. MSL/OSL did allow it, savior racepicked vs gorush and julyzerg racepicked vs chojja. I dont know if blizzcon did, im pretty sure in WCG people were allowed to play whatever race they wanted, as well as TSL, ISL, ASL, TLS. Those last ones are all the major tournaments that were hosted since the release of sc2 in case you are unaware, and ive played and racepicked in all of them. There was never an arbitrary rule preventing racepicking in foreign bw. I dont know how sc2 tournaments did it, but this isnt sc2.

rauk

United States2228 Posts

August 24 2017 18:38 GMT

#180

strictly speaking, i don't think savior racepicked vs gorush. he just submitted his race as T and if gorush had wanted to play P for some reason he would've had to play a PvT lol. the julyzerg thing was some weird proleague rule where you weren't allowed to play two races in a row or something like that so julyzerg randomed