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[ASL3] Ro24 Day 2 - Page 7

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
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outscar
Profile Joined September 2014
2832 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-12 17:52:39
April 12 2017 17:51 GMT
#121
Shine's gameplay is so fun to watch glad he made it through. Cool to see EffOrt broke his ro32/24 curse. Good effort by SnOw, his gameplay is really solid, almost won last game. I think he should've expanded more. Also that single lurker on back of 3rd inturrepted so much mining time, looked like SnOw was mining out of 2 bases.
sunbeams are never made like me...
[sc1f]eonzerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Belgium7218 Posts
April 12 2017 18:56 GMT
#122
On April 13 2017 01:22 st4ck0v3rfl0w wrote:
I really liked the flashftw/eonzerg cast!

thanks
keit
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
1584 Posts
April 12 2017 19:06 GMT
#123
amazing day of games!
Graphics
onlystar
Profile Joined March 2015
United States971 Posts
April 12 2017 21:03 GMT
#124
im happy for Shine! (F**K being an observer he is SO MUCH better than that)
endy
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Switzerland8970 Posts
April 12 2017 23:14 GMT
#125
I've always hated Shine, but I must admit really played amazingly well in game 5.
ॐ
prech
Profile Joined March 2014
United States2948 Posts
April 13 2017 00:27 GMT
#126
Fun games, nice to see Zerg being aggressive on Camelot.

TLPD updated
Liquipedia
usopsama
Profile Joined April 2008
6502 Posts
April 13 2017 01:17 GMT
#127
I hope Shine gets to tear Bisu a new asshole.
Shaman.us
Profile Joined May 2010
United States319 Posts
Last Edited: 2017-04-13 01:54:53
April 13 2017 01:54 GMT
#128
Hurray for Shiney McShinerson!
Shaman.233
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
April 13 2017 04:13 GMT
#129
Really great day of games. First matches were whatever, but man those last three were awesome.

Stoaked to see EffOrt move on! Little disappointed for SnOw, but at the same time I'm definitely happy for Shine, especially since his play in that last game was really smart.
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
Little-Chimp
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada951 Posts
April 13 2017 04:13 GMT
#130
That Shine game was reaaaally fun to watch.
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
April 13 2017 04:27 GMT
#131
On April 12 2017 20:17 tanngard wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 12 2017 20:07 rand0MPrecisi0n wrote:
On April 12 2017 19:49 tanngard wrote:
On April 12 2017 19:43 Heartland wrote:
On April 12 2017 19:36 tanngard wrote:
On April 12 2017 19:28 Heartland wrote:
On April 12 2017 19:27 tanngard wrote:
Why do we NEVER see P building cannons in a defensive gamble? He could cancel them when he gets more information even (cannons take a long time to build). Am i wrong about this? Do P sometimes gamble? I feel that the gamble is always to skip cannons rather than to add them.


Investing that many minerals in the early game really hurts you, though. So you could lose the game from doing that.

But thats the point. If P follow that logic EVERY time and skip cannons (i'm talking about when P is playing in the blind ofc), Z can just hydra bust him because of it. And then you are dead, so no worries about your economy. Thats why a am asking why dont P do the opposite gamble sometimes? Is it just me who feels this?


I'm no expert but I'd probably say that it's better to die occasionally to hydra busts than to do a lot to your own defensive cannoning.

What i am saying is that i think we see these kinds of games too much. That is a consequense off Ps predictability following the logic that you described. But i cannot recall seeing a P just suddenly adding 4-5 cannons without information off what Z is doing. Z is hurting their economy too by building hydras, so why not do the defensive cannon gamble when your scout is denied?


I think the problem with that is that the z can just suicide a ling to see how many cannons you have. If they see you're gambling they just go back to droning and you're screwed. There's no way for P to deny scout early so they're stuck between a rock and a hard place

That is a good point, but i still cannot accept that P should just concede every time they lose their scout. They just cannot be that predictable. I have to study this more closely to understand exactly what Snow could have done differently. But i dont play BW so its difficult for me. Could not P cancel their cannons when they get more information with the Corsair? Snow could have done that i think. But then again he has to sacrifice something to build all those cannons AND rush to corsair? Any P expert here that could illuminate us?


I'm not a P expert, but I will say the main thing here is that you absolutely cannot build blind cannons that early. 4 or 5 cannons is going to hugely slow down everything and put you deeply on the back burner.

Canceling the cannons when you see with the corsair might JUST work, but you'd have to have the timing flawless given that the corsair sees the hydras about halfway across the map, which means those cannons need to be within 5 or 10s of finishing by the time the corsair scouts. If you wait till corsair gets to the base the cannons will be complete.

The main issue for protoss is that it's imperative to scout well. You have to keep a probe on the map, and sometimes a hidden one as needed. Admittedly, pro's are generally playing fairly well to deny the scout, but at almost any level you can tell the difference between a zerg that is trying to deny your scout and a zerg that REALLY doesn't want you to see what's going on. You can also sack a zealot or two pressuring if needed.

The exception to this is a zerg that goes fast speedling, like 9 pool speed type thing. Then you won't get scouting intel, and can't keep the probe nearby to even see if hydra pop out. In this case you almost need to have a blind 3 cannons, and then stall for more; but it's not as bad in this situation because with 9pool speed zerg isn't nearly as set up economically if they aren't going for 3 hatch dra.
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
April 13 2017 04:34 GMT
#132
On April 13 2017 13:13 Little-Chimp wrote:
That Shine game was reaaaally fun to watch.


Both versus SnOw and versus EffOrt tbh.

Versus SnOw was a masterclass by Shine in how to play outsider, and how to punish a protoss that isn't keeping templar at expansions, or cannoning really heavy. I think given his 3 base to 3 base positioning SnOw probably needed to recognize that the main way for Shine to have success was with those drops, and even after the first one happened, he played risky against it going for the win. It almost worked, but it was a definitely gamble from SnOw. My person thought is SnOw was in good enough position to win just by establishing 4 strong, well defended bases and then worrying about breaking through Shine's position.

The EffOrt vs Shine game was fantastic too. Shine made the best of a bad situation, and made some really great ling decisions. Unfortunately, EffOrt was just outright better, and that's really what made the game so good. It was an absolute masterclass of ZvZ and in general strategic thinking, with EffOrt absolutely anticipating each of Shine's moves, and his general ling movements. That decision to deny the natural gas to ensure his nat gas timing matched Shine's with an already large muta flock from EffOrt was really nice; as was the winning move, recognizing he would be able to bust through the 5 spores at the risk of the counterattack. Most of all though, EffOrt's ling movements have always been insanely good, and he absolutely has that to thank for moving on. That first ling getting in and seeing the double hatches was HUGE. Without that, EffOrt was not preparing for mass lings, and almost certainly would have outright lost, but instead he was able to double sunken and extend the game.
EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
ig0tfish
Profile Joined July 2009
United States345 Posts
April 13 2017 05:23 GMT
#133
Watching Shine makes it so hard not to cheer for him.
valaki
Profile Joined June 2009
Hungary2476 Posts
April 13 2017 07:56 GMT
#134
I only hate Shine when he's playing against Bisu, tbh.
ggaemo fan
BrownBear
Profile Joined March 2010
United States6894 Posts
April 13 2017 22:37 GMT
#135
Go Grandma Zerg!
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