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On February 17 2015 23:29 shizzz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 19:44 Probemicro wrote:On February 17 2015 17:54 shizzz wrote:
People just got the old school nostalgia feels when they saw Last in the finals.. but the real TvT god was always going to win it.. ssak fighting! while i congratulate ssak as well i still have slight reservations considering him a great and worthy champion. while he does show solid effort in his play, he has a relatively easy path to the finals if you look at the opponents he played against. plus he is known for many bloopers in his general play outside of this tourney. and ssak kinda just caught on to last's weakness and lucked out with big vults runbys in the last 2 set. although i guess its kinda of a karmic retribution for last who lucked out with some cheeses during his tourney run too. True, sSak's vZ and vP are nowhere near his vT level, and so he was very lucky to have all T at the end (he even said so himself). Last and Ssak both had a largely tvt run, only Last had it even more so. Ssak had to overcome mini in a series, movie and hero in group play. Last cheesed and defended a cheese from kwanro, cheesed larva, lost to geumchi, and otherwise only beat terrans, two of which are extremely suspect in tvt, or weak in general--- mind and shinee respectively.
If Ssak was lucky for getting a mostly terran run, Last was just as if not luckier, and he was obviously the inferior tvt player anyway.
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On February 19 2015 10:30 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 23:29 shizzz wrote:On February 17 2015 19:44 Probemicro wrote:On February 17 2015 17:54 shizzz wrote:
People just got the old school nostalgia feels when they saw Last in the finals.. but the real TvT god was always going to win it.. ssak fighting! while i congratulate ssak as well i still have slight reservations considering him a great and worthy champion. while he does show solid effort in his play, he has a relatively easy path to the finals if you look at the opponents he played against. plus he is known for many bloopers in his general play outside of this tourney. and ssak kinda just caught on to last's weakness and lucked out with big vults runbys in the last 2 set. although i guess its kinda of a karmic retribution for last who lucked out with some cheeses during his tourney run too. True, sSak's vZ and vP are nowhere near his vT level, and so he was very lucky to have all T at the end (he even said so himself). Last and Ssak both had a largely tvt run, only Last had it even more so. Ssak had to overcome mini in a series, movie and hero in group play. Last cheesed and defended a cheese from kwanro, cheesed larva, lost to geumchi, and otherwise only beat terrans, two of which are extremely suspect in tvt, or weak in general--- mind and shinee respectively. If Ssak was lucky for getting a mostly terran run, Last was just as if not luckier, and he was obviously the inferior tvt player anyway
Are you forgetting what the actual scoreline of the finals is? For all you know we would be celebrating a different victor if sin peaks was not randomly chosen for the final set.
The protosses all went AWOL in ro8, with seemingly no game plan other than going carriers. Even hiya said so in the ro8 interview, how he didn't really practice but yet he still won cause the tosses played badly. And its real evident Mini play was bad compared to say, his previous ro16 against mong.
Movie overall results was mediocre as well in BOTH SSL and ksl, and we all know how awesome hero zvt is. So yes while last lucked his way to the through the tourney i would say ssak was not really truly tested in other matchups as well during his tourney run.
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On February 19 2015 10:30 Dazed_Spy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2015 23:29 shizzz wrote:On February 17 2015 19:44 Probemicro wrote:On February 17 2015 17:54 shizzz wrote:
People just got the old school nostalgia feels when they saw Last in the finals.. but the real TvT god was always going to win it.. ssak fighting! while i congratulate ssak as well i still have slight reservations considering him a great and worthy champion. while he does show solid effort in his play, he has a relatively easy path to the finals if you look at the opponents he played against. plus he is known for many bloopers in his general play outside of this tourney. and ssak kinda just caught on to last's weakness and lucked out with big vults runbys in the last 2 set. although i guess its kinda of a karmic retribution for last who lucked out with some cheeses during his tourney run too. True, sSak's vZ and vP are nowhere near his vT level, and so he was very lucky to have all T at the end (he even said so himself). Last and Ssak both had a largely tvt run, only Last had it even more so. Ssak had to overcome mini in a series, movie and hero in group play. Last cheesed and defended a cheese from kwanro, cheesed larva, lost to geumchi, and otherwise only beat terrans, two of which are extremely suspect in tvt, or weak in general--- mind and shinee respectively. If Ssak was lucky for getting a mostly terran run, Last was just as if not luckier, and he was obviously the inferior tvt player anyway.
I was just talking about when it came down to the last 4 players, not so much his run. And yea, maybe it was lucky for both of them then  .
otherwise only beat terrans, two of which are extremely suspect in tvt, or weak in general--- mind
Not sure if I can agree there though!
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well mind does look weak if you look at his post kespa tvt results. which i find really unusual as well.
still i find it offensive someone just claim last is inferior in TvT when he just wipe both Mind and Mong out, and was just narrowly edged out by ssak. though mong and mind may not be great in that matchup you don't expect a weak player to beat them both 3-0, especially during these days when almost everyone tend to skimp on mirror matchup practice.
In this current scene you only have ssak and sea who is capable of the same feat.
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United States2948 Posts
I appreciate the generally mature critical analysis from folks about the merits of sSak/Last, but I'm not a fan of attributing the players' skillful ascensions to luck. The best-of-one format in the Ro32 and Ro16 were very much questionable, and I would have liked to see a Bo3, but the fact remains that the players applied their past experiences, executed their game plans/strategies, and earned their victories. I think it demeans the game to say luck had a significant role in the grand scheme of things, particularly in a mirror match-up where racial imbalance is no longer a factor in the equation.
Both played admirably, and I hope we don't demean and undervalue sSak's victory, just like we don't ignore and fail to appreciate Last's outstanding 7-0 TvT record before the finals. It's been a joy to read the post-game interviews from most of the strong performers and hear about how much they've been practicing along the way. I'm so glad players are taking this competitive eSport seriously and applying themselves
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What is it with SSL finals that makes people unable to accept who the winner is? Last time it was the same thing; some people had trouble accepting that Hero lost.
Personally I'm really surprised by the number of people who cheered for Last. I'm biased, of course, having an extreme dislike for him after the way he got out of his Ro16 group, but even tying to overlook that I can't see anything to cheer for in terms of playing style.
I'm just really relieved that ssak won, and happy with the way he won.
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On February 19 2015 23:10 GeLaar wrote:
Personally I'm really surprised by the number of people who cheered for Last. I'm biased, of course, having an extreme dislike for him after the way he got out of his Ro16 group, but even tying to overlook that I can't see anything to cheer for in terms of playing style.
I'm just really relieved that ssak won, and happy with the way he won.
If you watch all of Last tvt's in ssl and compare them to sSak ones, you can understand i guess. Playstyle refined to almost perfection and total dominance is not a thing you can miss and if you still miss it, well i cant help. Game 3 of last vs ssak is having mostly "if u have time" votes, but i find it to be excelent, Last just lead the game masterfully move after move till the end, not just go abusive all in build as ssak did last 2 games, reminding me of the jaedongs double 4 pool against flash if i remember corretcly, i was glad jaedong didnt advanced in that manner.
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On February 20 2015 21:20 _Animus_ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2015 23:10 GeLaar wrote:
Personally I'm really surprised by the number of people who cheered for Last. I'm biased, of course, having an extreme dislike for him after the way he got out of his Ro16 group, but even tying to overlook that I can't see anything to cheer for in terms of playing style.
I'm just really relieved that ssak won, and happy with the way he won. If you watch all of Last tvt's in ssl and compare them to sSak ones, you can understand i guess. Playstyle refined to almost perfection and total dominance is not a thing you can miss and if you still miss it, well i cant help. Game 3 of last vs ssak is having mostly "if u have time" votes, but i find it to be excelent, Last just lead the game masterfully move after move till the end, not just go abusive all in build as ssak did last 2 games, reminding me of the jaedongs double 4 pool against flash if i remember corretcly, i was glad jaedong didnt advanced in that manner.
We may have a different understanding of game 4, but I had the feeling that the players were gearing up for an all-out Vulture on Vulture war, and Last tried to get sneaky by getting Wraiths in parallel. When ssak saw the Wraiths he must have known that he could win the ground fight since he had put all of his resources up to that point into Vultures. Game 5 also looked like it was going to be Vulture on Vulture, but Last's blunders during the first engagements cost him the game. I wouldn't call either of these games all-ins by ssak, other than the fact that by the time the Wraiths hit in game 4, it really was "do or die" for him. But he said himself that the Vulture play was purposefully done to mess with Last. So it was about as psychological as Jaedong's double 4-pool, but nowhere nearly as cheesy. It's not as though the other player doesn't know you're going Vultures - that's the beauty of it.
I'll admit that Last dominated in game 3, but that was because he won all of the small engagements while getting Wraiths, which then ended it. Anyone can look dominant if they win every single engagement for 5 minutes. So if you're already a Last fan, I'm sure game 3 must have been nice to watch, but I'm not convinced about his awesome play style.
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i find last has a very elegant style of tvt. it's like a dance. ssak was more often than not able to spot when last's balance was light and just tipped him over with ultimate simplicity. i still prefer last in tvt and his play to me seems more skillful, but ssak was just really solid overall.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On February 20 2015 21:50 GeLaar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2015 21:20 _Animus_ wrote:On February 19 2015 23:10 GeLaar wrote:
Personally I'm really surprised by the number of people who cheered for Last. I'm biased, of course, having an extreme dislike for him after the way he got out of his Ro16 group, but even tying to overlook that I can't see anything to cheer for in terms of playing style.
I'm just really relieved that ssak won, and happy with the way he won. If you watch all of Last tvt's in ssl and compare them to sSak ones, you can understand i guess. Playstyle refined to almost perfection and total dominance is not a thing you can miss and if you still miss it, well i cant help. Game 3 of last vs ssak is having mostly "if u have time" votes, but i find it to be excelent, Last just lead the game masterfully move after move till the end, not just go abusive all in build as ssak did last 2 games, reminding me of the jaedongs double 4 pool against flash if i remember corretcly, i was glad jaedong didnt advanced in that manner. We may have a different understanding of game 4, but I had the feeling that the players were gearing up for an all-out Vulture on Vulture war, and Last tried to get sneaky by getting Wraiths in parallel. When ssak saw the Wraiths he must have known that he could win the ground fight since he had put all of his resources up to that point into Vultures. Game 5 also looked like it was going to be Vulture on Vulture, but Last's blunders during the first engagements cost him the game. I wouldn't call either of these games all-ins by ssak, other than the fact that by the time the Wraiths hit in game 4, it really was "do or die" for him. But he said himself that the Vulture play was purposefully done to mess with Last. So it was about as psychological as Jaedong's double 4-pool, but nowhere nearly as cheesy. It's not as though the other player doesn't know you're going Vultures - that's the beauty of it. I'll admit that Last dominated in game 3, but that was because he won all of the small engagements while getting Wraiths, which then ended it. Anyone can look dominant if they win every single engagement for 5 minutes. So if you're already a Last fan, I'm sure game 3 must have been nice to watch, but I'm not convinced about his awesome play style.
Personally, I grew to be a fan of Last this SSL. His games overall were terrific and game 3 was the highlight of the night for me. You say that he looks dominant because he won every single engagement but that's also attributed to skills. He got to that point because he outplayed sSak in pretty much everything. His double port wraith addition was not even captured by the observer until the wraiths were joining us with his main army. He literally plowed through sSak lol. Overall, Last's style of TvT is much more interesting and entertaining to watch. Game 2 and 3, especially game 3 show us his capabilities when he plays the matchup his way which is probably why he was 9-0 prior to his final games.
I think most people including myself like Last for his playstyle. He'll go 12 cc one day then bunker rush as terran the next. His game against Hiya is one that I likely won't forget because it was a 'wow, that's something' moment for me. In contrast, sSak's play is solid, no doubt but he pretty much opens the same way and it's something that I vaguely recall Last mentioning in an interview before. Biggest mistake that Last did in game 4 was not trying to buy time with some ebay or building blocks at the choke point. His wraiths were dealing good damage anyway and he can still reclaim his expansion. Better to survive and lose some mining time then not lol. Anyways, both played well and I wouldn't call sSak's game 4 or 5 a vulture all-in like some other poster said.
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On February 21 2015 01:37 skzlime wrote:
i find last has a very elegant style of tvt. it's like a dance. ssak was more often than not able to spot when last's balance was light and just tipped him over with ultimate simplicity. i still prefer last in tvt and his play to me seems more skillful, but ssak was just really solid overall.
elegant is the word. Fits Last perfectly and that's why I like him.
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EPT
