Week 1 saw Sea.FireFist play instead of Kosiro[Shield]. You would've thought people would learn, but clearly not. In week 2 TL.net was involved in yet more controversy, however this time it was not teamliquid's side at fault. This time the person at fault is Nal_Paris, a member of Reps.Ru's sandlot squad. He was supposed to play against ToT)DaZe(, but for whatever reason eun[fou] played instead of him.
Here are a few screenshots of BWChart to back up my claim: 1) "Nal_Paris" (actually eun[fou]) vs ToT)DaZe( (from sandlot week two)
2) Nal_Paris vs s2[fOu] (from sandlot week one)
3) eun[fou] vs Ever)Z(Maru, notice the similarities between "nal_paris" from the first bwchart and this, apart from the later addition of 4,7,8,9 for his first CC (maybe he thought these additions would somehow cover his tracks) it's identical.
4) Nal_Paris (the real one, formerly known as MISSHA[fOu]) vs Sea.Jy
I didn't post this here so people could flame Nal_Paris or eun[fou] or whatever, I just wanted to let people know the truth, and get this problem fixed.
It is apparant that both Romad and Midian agree on this matter. They haven't been wrong before and there is no reason to doubt them right now. It is unfortunate this case came to the surface so late, right before the week three kicks off, and after reps.ru already sent in their line-ups.
We haven't managed to contact Blizzard about this yet, but it is safe to assume that they will respond the same way as they did with Kosiro. Meaning they will give Nal_Paris a loss for his games against Daze and TL winning week 2 with a score of 4-1.
The difficulty is however what will happen to reps.ru in week three. Since they already sent in their line-up it might cause some problems. We have contacted reps.ru about this matter and we adviced them not to use Nal_Paris tomorrow. Because if they do the chances are there that, since Kosiro was DQ'ed from the tournament as a whole, Blizzard will decide to DQ Nal_Paris after his game in week three. We don't want this to happen obviously. Ovvi (Fifo) was supposed to be playing Nal_Paris and might have been practicing zvt all week. For this reason we asked reps.ru to use Advocate for this game so that it is still a tvz and Fifo is likely to agree. Hopefully Blizzard will see it the same.
It has been like this for a long time. Famous progamers have cheated many times before in online matches. When I was in Korea we had to play a qualifier for a GhemTV tournament and this qualifier was online. There were only about 10 invites so every other progamer tried to qualify in this ladder. Literally 95% of them either hacked or abused to get into the highest ranks. This was in a time when people didn't really care to find out or do anything about it. Nor did they have the means to do so.
Now with bwchart it seems like the online community will have to go through a learning process in which they are re-thought how to deal with fairplay. I think Koreans will give up on cheating eventually when they find out this is damaging their names so much that it is not worth taking the risk at all.
have you looked at other tvt reps as well? maybe he uses a different setup in a different matchup. also i don't think those two differ very much. just looking at those two pictures i could imagine that he just didn't use some keys or used them later. but you probably looked at more than just those replays... another thing to keep in mind is that the two "real" paris games are around 11 minutes while the eun and the game vs daze are much longer which means the scale is different and the assignments _look_ different.
On October 06 2006 14:14 Asta wrote: have you looked at other tvt reps as well? maybe he uses a different setup in a different matchup. also i don't think those two differ very much. just looking at those two pictures i could imagine that he just didn't use some keys or used them later. but you probably looked at more than just those replays... another thing to keep in mind is that the two "real" paris games are around 11 minutes while the eun and the game vs daze are much longer which means the scale is different and the assignments _look_ different.
get real. they are totally different. if you don't have a clue what you're talking about don't talk at all.
Christ... you'd seriously think, with reputation and money on the line, and ESPECIALLY after someone else already got caught, that this would kind've stop... honestly, what could he have been thinking?
On October 06 2006 14:14 Asta wrote: have you looked at other tvt reps as well? maybe he uses a different setup in a different matchup. also i don't think those two differ very much. just looking at those two pictures i could imagine that he just didn't use some keys or used them later. but you probably looked at more than just those replays... another thing to keep in mind is that the two "real" paris games are around 11 minutes while the eun and the game vs daze are much longer which means the scale is different and the assignments _look_ different.
Honestly, I think we're at the point now where you simply do not question Midian or Romad when it comes to hotkey fingerprinting.
On October 06 2006 14:20 bine wrote: what are the implications for us passing the round? what do we need to do?
if reps.ru wins 4-1, we need to win 3-2 (to out right win) if reps.ru wins 3-2, we need to win 3-2 (tie fifo) i haven't looked at the total points, so there may or may not be play off matches.
I just talked to paris. Aparrently his best friend was going to 'army' on that day so he asked eun[fou] to play him for in sandlot. Since the rep.ru team leader has suckest english ever, and paris also have suckest english, they couldn't talk at all, so paris didn't know whether he can change TIME/DATE or not like figherforum leader didn't know either, so active played for me instead. By the way, kosiro[shield] problem was really big deal in tl.net HOWEVER, 99% Koreans dont know about this, unless blizzard or Fighterforum(biggest community) announce it. Anyway, i assume he will get banned in this tourney 99%, gl to rest of people.
omg so pathetic... I have nothing but total disrespect for such matters and anyone involved and that's how they should be treated by the whole community. I'm glad someone had the patience to sit down and find out the truth. Such matters should not go unnoticed and unpunished
btw, can u please revert the liquibet result as you did with the draco situation? +1 point for me would be cool
On October 06 2006 14:14 Asta wrote: have you looked at other tvt reps as well? maybe he uses a different setup in a different matchup. also i don't think those two differ very much. just looking at those two pictures i could imagine that he just didn't use some keys or used them later. but you probably looked at more than just those replays... another thing to keep in mind is that the two "real" paris games are around 11 minutes while the eun and the game vs daze are much longer which means the scale is different and the assignments _look_ different.
Uhhhh....if you have ever in your life done any replay analysis then you will realize that the hotkey use is very different.
Maybe I'll add a bit more later to help resolve this. If I have the time that is. Midian's post is enough right there.
yea honestly, im not trying to be an asshole or anything but i think koreans just dont care too much about this, i mean their only motivation is the money i guess, i dont even know if thats true. i think its like if they get caught oh well, they will get more chances at things like these. i just dont think they understand the importance of this even because major korean sites arent publicizing it enough. to the foreign community this is a HUGE tournament, but because fighterforum and sites like that dont publicize it enough, koreans dont think its that big a deal and dont care about consequences, sad.
On October 06 2006 14:43 RepeNt wrote: yea honestly, im not trying to be an asshole or anything but i think koreans just dont care too much about this, i mean their only motivation is the money i guess, i dont even know if thats true. i think its like if they get caught oh well, they will get more chances at things like these. i just dont think they understand the importance of this even because major korean sites arent publicizing it enough. to the foreign community this is a HUGE tournament, but because fighterforum and sites like that dont publicize it enough, koreans dont think its that big a deal and dont care about consequences, sad.
But there's a great miss in this theory. If they don't care wouldn't they just not show up at all? The fact that they ask their friend, who is better than himself btw, to play a game for them does show some kind of dedication. The wrong kind though.
On October 06 2006 15:37 IntoTheWow wrote: uh even if this helps TL, its quite sad that in 2 weeks we have 2 account sharings :|
It might be even worse than that. If Midian and Romad are checking koreans involving TLnet only, then this is actually 2 account sharings in 2 team-vs-team matches, and there could be even more.
Nonsense. My people never cheat. We are so super-evolved we can change habitual tendencies such as hotkeys and make silly white men think they caught us. NONSENSE.
On October 06 2006 17:06 SuperJongMan wrote: Nonsense. My people never cheat. We are so super-evolved we can change habitual tendencies such as hotkeys and make silly white men think they caught us. NONSENSE.
On October 06 2006 17:06 SuperJongMan wrote: Nonsense. My people never cheat. We are so super-evolved we can change habitual tendencies such as hotkeys and make silly white men think they caught us. NONSENSE.
yes nazgul u are right but they are TOLD to come and play these games by respected people within their community. the fact that he found some1 else does show some dedication i guess, but they played on the same bnet ID, and depending on whether or not the management knew about this then paris was trying to fool the leader into thinking that he was there cuz he was told to come. and like i said before, the money could be very slight motivation i guess, but idk.
On October 06 2006 21:01 RepeNt wrote: yes nazgul u are right but they are TOLD to come and play these games by respected people within their community. the fact that he found some1 else does show some dedication i guess, but they played on the same bnet ID, and depending on whether or not the management knew about this then paris was trying to fool the leader into thinking that he was there cuz he was told to come. and like i said before, the money could be very slight motivation i guess, but idk.
I doesn’t show dedication at all. The exact opposite of dedication maybe. It doesn’t show integrity or fair play. It also doesn’t show competitiveness - the true beauty of BW..
wow what a promising league this is turning out to be lol. What made u guys check to see if it was real one this time? i mean draco's guy was supposed to be drunk and it was really obvious but what did paris do for u guys to go inspecting? or did ya just do it cause of the kosiro incident ~~
They most likely check all the korean replays since this is so common. Word has it that there was another... potential switch-a-roo but this one is.. more private apparently
On October 07 2006 06:31 [GiTM]-Ace wrote: wow what a promising league this is turning out to be lol. What made u guys check to see if it was real one this time? i mean draco's guy was supposed to be drunk and it was really obvious but what did paris do for u guys to go inspecting? or did ya just do it cause of the kosiro incident ~~
romad found it, ididn't check any of the replays =o i dunno why he checked, maybe he saw the replay and found the skill level to be higher than expected from nal_paris, that's just speculating though.
lol this is ridiculous... do they realize how much money is involved for the sandlot, and how many ways it can be won? these cheating players should really be punished but there's nothing we can do but kick them from tournament t.t
I could not find additional evidence supporting this with action distributions. Actually, from the replays I analyzed, Eun and Paris have nearly identical action distributions and they also have similar apm and apm curves. I looked at replays of paris from week 1, "paris" from week 2 and 3 replays of eun[fou] that were in my archive.
It would be much easier to see for sure if the week 2 games had been against a Zerg. Nal_Paris does have one VERY UNUSUAL tendency, which is that he actually uses the "heal" action whereas most people set their medics on attack move, allowing them to auto-heal. In the games against S2, Paris had 1-3% of his actions (in every game) as heal.
Unfortunately, nobody uses medics in TvT for obvious reasons.
Still, this evidence does NOT contradict what Midian said. In fact, the evidence I gathered shows that it is possible for either Paris or Eun to have played the game. Neither is excluded. The hotkeys used agree with Eun, not with Paris, so it is far more likely that Eun played the games.
On October 07 2006 10:12 Mortality wrote: I could not find additional evidence supporting this with action distributions. Actually, from the replays I analyzed, Eun and Paris have nearly identical action distributions and they also have similar apm and apm curves. I looked at replays of paris from week 1, "paris" from week 2 and 3 replays of eun[fou] that were in my archive.
It would be much easier to see for sure if the week 2 games had been against a Zerg. Nal_Paris does have one VERY UNUSUAL tendency, which is that he actually uses the "heal" action whereas most people set their medics on attack move, allowing them to auto-heal. In the games against S2, Paris had 1-3% of his actions (in every game) as heal.
Unfortunately, nobody uses medics in TvT for obvious reasons.
Still, this evidence does NOT contradict what Midian said. In fact, the evidence I gathered shows that it is possible for either Paris or Eun to have played the game. Neither is excluded. The hotkeys used agree with Eun, not with Paris, so it is far more likely that Eun played the games.
[QUOTE]On October 06 2006 14:35 Nal_CrayOn wrote: I just talked to paris. Aparrently his best friend was going to 'army' on that day so he asked eun[fou] to play him for in sandlot. Since the rep.ru team leader has suckest english ever, and paris also have suckest english, they couldn't talk at all, so paris didn't know whether he can change TIME/DATE or not like figherforum leader didn't know either, so active played for me instead. By the way, kosiro[shield] problem was really big deal in tl.net HOWEVER, 99% Koreans dont know about this, unless blizzard or Fighterforum(biggest community) announce it. Anyway, i assume he will get banned in this tourney 99%, gl to rest of people.
On October 06 2006 17:06 SuperJongMan wrote: Nonsense. My people never cheat. We are so super-evolved we can change habitual tendencies such as hotkeys and make silly white men think they caught us. NONSENSE.
rofl.. didn't he just confess he didn't play (Paris) or how about Kosiro 8D ?
its funny how koreans keep saying foreigners are bm when they all cheat i even remember when [shield] had cw's bisu would play his game then go on a smurf [shield] id and play another game
On October 07 2006 10:12 Mortality wrote: It would be much easier to see for sure if the week 2 games had been against a Zerg. Nal_Paris does have one VERY UNUSUAL tendency, which is that he actually uses the "heal" action whereas most people set their medics on attack move, allowing them to auto-heal. In the games against S2, Paris had 1-3% of his actions (in every game) as heal. .
everyone uses the heal action for meds, 'a' = heal for medics. they have no attack move command.
On October 07 2006 13:36 IdrA wrote: [removed quote within quote] everyone uses the heal action for meds, 'a' = heal for medics. they have no attack move command.
yeah, i was wondering what he was talking about. elaborate please!
On October 08 2006 01:52 MuShu wrote: Maybe he means he actually clicks the "heal" button with his mouse instead of doing a+move.
but but thats retarded :| i think every tvz game will have a % of 'heal' commands... pressing A simply goes to heal . mouse clicking the heal button would be retardedly slow. -_-a
What I think he means is that he for example selects marines with his medics in the hotkey, then presses A. It won't register as heal, but as attack move in bwchart. Apparently, paris hotkeys his medics seperately and uses the heal command to send them after the marines. At least, that's what I think.
On October 08 2006 04:34 Artanis[Xp] wrote: What I think he means is that he for example selects marines with his medics in the hotkey, then presses A. It won't register as heal, but as attack move in bwchart. Apparently, paris hotkeys his medics seperately and uses the heal command to send them after the marines. At least, that's what I think.
almost everyone hotkeys their marines and medics seperately. im still confused!
heal appears as an apm % on bwchart the most often for terrans who hotkey their medics to 1 or 2. If your hotkeys are 1 marine 2 marine 3 medic/marine or 4 medic, you'll most likely press 3a or 4a less because after you stim your medics will follow. So I think, i'm only guessing, that most terrans who have those hotkeys just do 1ta/2ta with small marine armies, and not bother with medic + attack move as much compared to a terran who hotkeys his medics first, then marines, because in that case you'd always be pressing medics hotkeys + attack move first then marine hotkey and other unit hotkey. I'm pretty sure medics + attack move counts as the heal command. I usually get 2-5% heal on bwchart and I always hotkey medics to 2, then 3 marine 4 marine 5 other units, etc. Just a small observation, every replay i've watched and looked up on bwchart has followed this theory.
Well now we know he cheated, so that's a givin. No reason to talk further about it.
The real question now is, can TL qualify because of this? Do Nazgul's PP games now count for something?
I'm sure Mani has already got on the line to contact Blizzard and I hope that TL gets some reparations for this considering the class with which we dealt with our own cheater and the actions taken against us.
EPT
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