Pringles MSL Group Selection Stage - Page 9

On April 10 2006 19:51 tfeign wrote:
I stopped reading after your second sentence. Go watch the game again before coming back to post.

On April 10 2006 18:29 tfeign wrote:
The ones that I watched were pretty close games. Even if half of them were, that's a lot lot more than the Reach vs savior series. At the time Reach had his matches against him, his pvz was in absolute top-form.

And even if you think that dominating oov means more zvt than dominating Reach zvp, then what about all those low-level terrans he lose to? Does Savior lose to any low-level Protoss? His ZvP record vs different opponents is far, far more consistent than his ZvT record vs different opponents. Yes, beating oov is definitely impressive, but at the same losing to low level terrans is not something that happens to him vs Protoss opponents.

On April 10 2006 20:00 NubainMuscle wrote:


To be perfectly honest, I was expecting a comment of this nature.
I watched the game in its entirety, including several rewinds at certain points in the VOD.
But just to humor you, I still have it saved and I will watch the "pimpest PvZ play ever" as I type.

Roughly 3 hotkeys of devourers at bottom left natural. 3 archons and 4 dark archons approaching.
Nearly every devourer maelstormed except 2-3 at top right of screen. 1 hotkey of corsairs attacking. 2 storms. An additional maelstorm freezes another 8 or so. Combination corsair, HT, archon eventually destroys the devourer force.

Chojja had no ground support, no scourge or mutalisks, so basically the only threat was to Reach's corsair fleet, and if you took the time to watch GoRush v Stork you would realize that it takes an incredibly, incredibly long time for a pure devourer force to destroy an entire hotkey of corsairs without some form of support from other units.

Reach even had 5 carriers and an arbiter that weren't necessary.
So don't ignorantly assume that I didn't watch the VOD just because I don't regurgitate the popular forum rhetoric. I follow the games on my own and drawn my own opinions, and I conclude that either you grossly overestimate the impact of that episode or you are simply jumping on the bandwagon.

I took the time to read each and every one your posts and thoughtfully respond to one point I disagreed with (after all this contention is a matter of opinion) and you disrespect me by dismissing me with a wrong assumption.

On April 10 2006 20:19 tfeign wrote:
If you think Reach could have won without maestrom, then you shouldn't be taken seriously. Chojja could have camped out to a draw if worst comes to worst.

That maelstrom was the pimpest PvZ move I've ever seen, and that's fact. "Essential to win" bullshit is really not what "pimp" means. No maelstrom casted during the Grrr vs Zerglee game came even close to the level of pimpness compared to that ending of the Reach Chojja game. It sure was a pimp game overall, but as far as the pimpest PvZ move goes, there really is no contest.

On April 10 2006 20:30 tfeign wrote:
If you did it against someone like Chojja in an important televised game where players were trying their best, that would top the list for sure. There's a huge difference between doing that to some foreigner (who may not even have tried - and making 60 mutas vs protoss already sounds like the guy was just fucking around for fun) and doing that to a top korean zerg. The skill level of your opponent is partly responsible for the level of pimpness. Hallucination recall wouldn't really be that pimp if you did it to some foreigner, but it definitely was one of the pimpest highlights when rA did it vs a terran like Goodfriend.

On April 10 2006 20:52 NubainMuscle wrote:


1) If you take away the 4 dark archons, Chojja could not have won the battle. I cant even't begin to fathom how you think he would because the outcome is so obvious on many levels. First of all, devourers cannot attack ground, so his archons and HT would have been available to assist at any point in the game. Even if the devourers overwhelmed the carrier and corsair fleet (which they wouldn't have), it would have been a long battle, giving Reach ample time to position his archons and HT. If you knew as much as you claim to concerning Broodwar, you would know that devourers do not instantly kill any unit, so even if the devourer army grossly, grossly outnumbers the enemy airforce, it will still be a long battle nonetheless.

2) I agree with your statement that Chojja could have camped, but he could have done this instead of confronting Reach at the bottom left natural too. Stationing his devourers behind a few sunken colonies at his natural would have made it extremely difficult for Reach to bring his ground support into sufficient range, so this would not only nullify his dark archons, but his HT and archons as well. The result? A long, long boring game where the spectators become aggravated because it is clear Chojja lost. Why disrespect his teammate by intentionally prolonging the game? Why lose respect in the eyes of his fans for wasting their time? Its wasn't worth it, so he chose to attack at that precise moment, and the outcome was all but sealed regardless of the presence of the dark archons or not.

On April 10 2006 20:58 NubainMuscle wrote:


If Testie was able to successfully use nuclear missles in a game against a reasonably talented foreigner, it would receive a decent amount of attention in the foreign community. Pimpest plays, at least at the outset, was not devoted exclusively to the professional scene. Once again, in defense of my point, it would depend largely on the necessity of the nuclear missles. If Testie used them simply to finish off a foreigner who was nearly dead and hadn't "gg'd" yet, the replay would not be especially noteworthy and Testie may even be criticized for 'gloating' his advantage over his opponent. However, if Testie did use nukes in an effective manner and was able to pull a W, it would be a widely watched replay featured on yaoyuan, gosugamers, and other notable foreign servers that upload foreign replays.

Stork used hallucinated arbiters and the audience was silent.
Nal_rA had done it before, so obviously it was no longer unique, but on the same note, it didn't really do anything important in Stork's case.

On April 10 2006 21:02 tfeign wrote:
With proper spreading of his devourers, Chojja would have easily taken out Reach's air force. Reach could NOT have won the game without maelstrom. And oh, Chojja would have had even a much bigger army of devourers if he didn't lose groups after groups of devourers solely due to Reach's maelstrom about 5-10 or so minutes before the ending. So if you have actually watched the whole VOD and not just the last minute of the game, you'd have realize that by now.

On April 10 2006 21:04 tfeign wrote:


Pimp plays is not only just exclusive to the pro scene, there's no question about it. But what exactly are you trying to refute in my original post? A zerg who builds 60 mutas vs Protoss is already alone enough to conclude that this is no reasonly talented foreigner.

On April 10 2006 21:21 NubainMuscle wrote:


Once again ... "with proper spreading of his devourers", he wouldn't have had 95% of his units maelstormed, so your statement has little meaning.

On April 10 2006 21:33 NubainMuscle wrote:
Well wouldn't this same logic apply to Reach v Chojja?
A pure devourer fleet, even if Reach grossly fucked up and sent all of his units to their death without doing a single lick of damage, would result in a draw. Chojja had nothing to destroy Reach's main, which had exactly 12 cannons. So there is no way Reach could have lost, and considering he is a seasoned veteran, he had the victory secured. All Reach had to do was play conservative and control his units with some degree of proficiency.

The build is irrelevant. JulyZerg has been known to mass insane numbers of mutalisks in ZvP (Gillette OSL game on Namja Iyagi is an example). The reputation of the foreigner would not be determined in a single game if he was known. If he was unknown, then the opinion of the community is meaningless because its only based on 1 game against one of the top foreigners.

On April 10 2006 21:40 YoUr_KiLLeR wrote:
tfeign dont ignore me. what games from savior vs oov were as close as you make it sound?

On April 10 2006 21:38 tfeign wrote:
There was NO point to spread his devourers vs 4 maelstroms. With proper spreading or not, it was impossible for Chojja to have taken out Reach's air force due to maelstrom. It was much better for him to group them together for faster control for hit and run. If not for the maelstrom, Chojja would have spreaded and flanked Reach's force and obliterated it 10 minutes earlier than the game lasted.