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On April 10 2006 22:44 tfeign wrote:
Congratulations, now you have totally ignored all the questions I asked and begun to refute imaginary claims that I never even said anything about.
I have not ignored them I have answered them multiple times and will continue to do so.
I have said clearly and repeatedly that Reach could not have won the game if not for maelstrom. I see absolutely nothing confusing in this sentence, so if there is, ask for clarification.
1 answer: Dunaj tactics. This is the 4th freaking time I have said it.
I also have a new answer: I noted that Reach had a probe mining the top right mineral/gas. Once that expired, he would simply mine the top middle mineral only. Build more probes, more probes, eventually afford a nexus, build the nexus next to the top middle mineral only, mine, mine, build a massive zealot force, hallucinate them, and storm through Chojja's sunken line.
Reach could camp his carriers and corsairs in his main base guarded by 12 cannons. Chojja would be powerless to do anything. Chojja cannot mine minerals because Reach has the top middle mineral only (the only expansion remaining) defended and eventually he would be mining from it. From there, if he is out of gas, simply build up a nice zealot force, hallucinate, and charge chojja's 6-7 sunkens. The mineral only expo had all of its minerals intact so Reach could build a massive zealot force.
Chojja has no mobile force that can attack ground. The carriers and corsairs are protected next to 12 cannons, and even if Chojja manages to kill them, he still can't stop Reach from mining out top middle, building zealots, hallucinating them, etc. Actually, Reach could continue to mine old vespene and slowly accumulate the gas necessary to build whatever the hell he wanted.
There you go, for the 4th time. I'm right, you're wrong 
I have said clearly and repeatedly that Chojja would have obliterated Reach's air force 10 minutes earlier than the game lasted if not for maelstrom, and that if worst comes it would be a camped out draw.
I have said clearly and repeatedly that it doesn't matter whether Chojja destroyed Reach's air force. The game would not have been a camped out draw for the fresh new reason I stated above, as well as the same reason I have incessantly repeated. Reach would have won regardless, his victory was guaranteed and the outcome of the final air battle is irrelevant.
Did I say anything about Chojja winning? Why are you trying to refute a point that I never tried to make? Is it because you're desperate to avoid answering a question? I have said multiple times that, if not for maelstrom, the game would become a camped out draw eventually if worst comes for worst (meaning if Chojja don't manage to mine the middle expansion) after killing Reach's air.
And I have outlined that it wouldn't be a draw and why. Chojja had no chance to mine the middle because Reach had 3 archons there that the devourers cannot touch. The fact that you keep insisting that Chojja had an opportunity to take the middle is not only wrong, its absurd.
And here you are still blindly arguing that maelstrom was not "essential" to Reach winning.
I outlined 2 viable alternatives to the maelstorm. Nothing is "essential" if there is an alternative that will achieve the desired goal, in this case to win. The maelstorm was not essential for Reach to win because he could have won through other means.
This is getting ridiculous. You are losing every argument, repeating the same old shit with slightly different wording, getting your facts mixed up, making inaccurate assumption. You are a mess. Give it up man you are getting utterly roasted in this thread. I attempted to remain civil and polite but you insulted my character by implying that I am a liar, you belittle and disrespect me by refusing to read my initial post in its entirety, and you continue to attack my character despite getting your ass handed to you in this debate.
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holy crap tfeign i just reskimmed through the rush hour game from CYON's losers final. please tell me how that one was remotely close. the first time oov moved out of his natural into the center of the map he got raped by guardians and typed out.
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So..... I thought the group selection idea is cool.
The swapping system is fun. It just sucks that 3P's and a T are together.
I think they should have a race limit so you can switch tosses around but not put 3 in 1 group.
That's stupid.
Also, Nubain and everyone else, it's stupid to argue to Tfeign. It's not because he is correct all the time, which he isn't, but he is retardedly stubborn.
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back on topic sort of superjongman, from the way the new MSL format sounds, i dont really like it too much. theres too many bo1s X_X.
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On April 10 2006 22:54 tfeign wrote:
Your argument that a pimp move has to be a move that's "essential to win the game" to be a pimp move is total nonsense. Tratoss's Marine Squadron was voted the pimpest play in the sclegacy poll in last year's PP poll after they had one. Was killing 2 lurkers with 3 marines really that essential as game deciding? As far as I know, nobody even knows who eventually won the game.
JESUS CHRIST. WE HAD THIS EXACT SAME DISCUSSION 2 PAGES AGO.
The criteria for a "pimp play" is not a physical law grounded by a mathematical proof.
It is a subjective value judgment that may potentially vary from person to person.
Don't call one tenet of my personal criteria nonsense simply because you don't agree with it.
I NEVER SAID A PIMPEST PLAY HAS TO BE ESSENTIAL, IN FACT, I STATED QUITE CLEARLY THAT PIMPEST PLAYS COVER A VERY BROAD SPECTRUM OF IMPORTANCE PERTAINING TO THEIR IMPACT ON THE FINAL OUTCOME OF THE GAME.
A pimp play is a combination of strategic value, timing, execution, creativity, quality of players/game. You base it all on just essentiality which is not what a pimp move is all about. If you think that Grrrr vs Zerglee is more pimp than the ending of Reach vs Chojja, then hold on to that opinion. However most others would rate it otherwise, deservedly, and definitely not as unjustified as you tried your best to make it out to be in your original post.
I agree that every aspect you state above is an important element, but are they weighted equally?
Maybe for some, not for others. That is where the subjectivity and judgment of the individual comes into play. Personally, I don't care for "cool moves" outside of Korea, but I know many do. I'm also unimpressed by an unnecessary maelstorm when the protoss user already has the game won. I'm well aware that you disagree with my opinion, but I defended my reasoning to the best of my ability. I'm also aware that some opinions are more popular than others, but this has absolutely nothing to do with the main argument: was the maelstorm necessary to win? I have proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that it was not necessary to win, so you are just nitpicking at my opinion because it is in the minority.
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holy fuck. I just typed a page full reply to NubainMuscle's completely ridiculous posts and accidentally deleted by touching the back button on my mouse.
I aint gonna type that shit up again, but to sum up part of his absurdity:
I am so utterly unimpressed by a maelstrom that destroyed half a screenfull of devourers when Reach could have spent half an hour mining from a base half the map away with one single probe for the next half hour before he could make a new nexus, and where he could spent the next half hour after that making new probes/tech buildings/research hallucinations/zealots.
OMG that is so "unimpressive" how you killed half a screenfull of devourers with that "unnecessary" maelstrom when you could have spent the next 1 hour mining and building with 1 probe to win the game. Unlike Grrrr who had no other way, no other alternative to winning a PvZ unless he used maelstrom, which makes it essential.
You disappoint me Reach, you really did.
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tfeign i'd also like an essay on game 2 of CYON's loser's final and how the winner was impossible to tell until the final seconds of the game.
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I don't have the VOD with me. I watched all the games live when they happened, and they were close from what I saw. Maybe bias from watching them live and for the first time not knowing who would win, but certainly oov was A LOT more closer to winning than Reach was. Game 3 was definitely a tight game that went back and forth many times.
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i watched them live as well...
savior must've picked off a combined 3500 scvs in that series with his muta harass. it was pretty easy to tell who was going to win after that, live or not.
also, reach had actually won a game against savior in UZOO's final and played a ridiculously close game on luna. he was much closer than oov was to beating savior.
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yes, i did agree that game 3 was close, but the rest of the series was not as you stated.
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Watching them live certainly felt they were close. And I know Reach managed to win one game, while losing 5 of them in the same league. Add in 2 more losses from that WEG event and that's 7-1 for Savior at one point. That's just about as much as 7-0 oov, considering oov was definitely close to taking some games.
I've said it before and I have said it many times: beating oov zvt is more impressive than beating reach zvp, but losing against low level terrans in proleague and OGN is something that does not happen to him in a zvp matchup. There is not enough evidence to suggest that his zvt is far superior than his zvp as people are mistakenly claiming. In fact evidence shows he is very consistent in zvp vs different protoss opponents while the same is totally not true for his zvt. All in all both of his matchups are very close if not equal at the same level. Feels like I'm repeating myself here but which of these comments I've made here are you exactly trying to refute with?
btw I watched both of his games vs ArtofTerran and Cloud as well as a couple more in Proleague who I don't remember the terran's names.
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i dont have a problem with any of your comments, its just that i have a problem with you commenting on games you have not seen. ie. july making mutas blah blah, shinhan's final, and then openly admitting that you haven't seen all of the oov/savior series while stating that they were all very close.
btw you didnt say that beating oov zvt was more impressive than beating reach zvp, i said that -_-.
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On April 10 2006 23:42 tfeign wrote:
holy fuck. I just typed a page full reply to NubainMuscle's ridiculous posts and accidentally deleted by touching the back button on my mouse.
Just copy and paste one of your initial posts and modify the sentences and structure a little bit.
That's basically all you've done for the past 3 pages...
I aint gonna type it up again, but to sum up part of his absurdity:
I am so utterly unimpressed by a maelstrom that destroyed half a screenfull of devourers when Reach could have spent half an hour mining from a base half the map away with one single probe for the next half hour before he could make a new nexus, and where he could spent the next half hour after that making new probes/tech buildings/research hallucinations/zealots.
I said it was cool. I just don't believe it is worthy of the #1 PvZ play of all-time.
I was forced to theorycraft possible alternatives after your incessant, unfounded insistence that Reach couldn't possibly win without the maelstorms. I proved you wrong and now you ridicule my solutions, the very solutions you claimed could not possibly exist. There is absolutely no way Chojja could have won the game, and there is no way Reach could have lost the game, according to the logic of my presented alternatives, outside of intentionally suiciding his own units (which was not a provision of my aforementioned solutions).
OMG that is so unimpressive how you killed half a screenfull of devourers when you could have spent the next 1 hour mining and building with 1 probe to win the game. Unlike Grrrr who had no other way, no other alternative to winning a PvZ unless he used maelstrom, which makes it essential.
I never said Reach didn't end the game in style. It was impressive, I will grant you that.
YOU implied that it was absolutely mandatory to win the game. Take note: WIN THE GAME.
Its funny because every statement I made that you are ridiculing was formulated as a direct response to some ignorant assertion you made.
To sum things up, here are some of your previous statements:
1) "If you think Reach could have won without maestrom, then you shouldn't be taken seriously." - Wrong
2) "Reach could NOT have won the game without maelstrom." - Wrong
3) "Have you yet realized that Reach would not have won without Maelstrom?" - No, you are wrong
4) " Do you realize that Reach's maelstrom was mandatory for him to win the game?" - No, you are wrong
5) "I have said clearly and repeatedly that Reach could not have won the game if not for maelstrom. " - Wrong
6) "And here you are still blindly arguing that maelstrom was not "essential" to Reach winning." - Yes
It took 6 times for you to get the point and even now you won't directly admit that you were wrong. Sure the alternatives may seem abstract, lengthy, or impractical, but nonetheless, given the conditions of that game at the specificed time, they were 100% guaranteed to work. You can't say you weren't asking for it...
I am going to bed now.
I will promptly reply to any further questions, comments, or criticism tomorrow evening.
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On April 11 2006 00:04 YoUr_KiLLeR wrote:
i dont have a problem with any of your comments, its just that i have a problem with you commenting on games you have not seen. ie. july making mutas blah blah, shinhan's final, and then openly admitting that you haven't seen all of the oov/savior series while stating that they were all very close.
btw you didnt say that beating oov zvt was more impressive than beating reach zvp, i said that -_-.
I did watched all the shinhan finals games- not live but I from the VODS downloaded. In the live reporting thread someone made a mistake and said they were playing on Rush Hour instead of 815. I said that considering they were playing on Rush Hour it wasn't really imbalanced for TvZ. What exactly is wrong with that? I don't need to watch the game to make a comment that a particular map is balanced. I already know from past statistics.
I HAVE seen all the recent oov/savior series, and they indeed seemed close at the time I watched them, especially the last game.
I said I agreed beating oov zvt is more impressive than reach zvp, same exact thing.
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you were arguing with me in your typical stubborn manner in that thread and you also went on and on about how oov raped july and how you knew it would happen and how julys zvt is overrated AND you said it happened on mostly balanced maps.
theres nothing wrong with a simple mistake, but when you argue so vehemently before having seen any of the games, then theres a problem. you also acted as if it was a clear, uncontested rape before seeing how close the 2nd and 3rd games in that series actually were.
(btw i agree julys zvt is overrated so lets not argue about that as well)
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and i dont know about your definition of a close game, but if you're playing an equally skilled opponent in zvt, you'll be hardpressed to win in under 17-18 minutes most of the time, EVEN if you're dominating him.
you simply can't end a game by attacking a terran base head-on with lair tech unless something unusual happens in the early game (he lost all scvs, lost all army for some reason). so even though savior was ahead in most of those games, he needed defiler or guardian to put the finishing blow on oov.
his muta harass made oov play catch-up for the rest of the game, so while he didnt end the game with it (because pro terrans don't die to pure muta harass), he was surely ahead.
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I predicted oov would 3-0 July, and he did. Then while that happeened, if someone made a mistake saying they played on Rush Hour instead of 815, I wouldn't hesitate to say that they didn't play on any imbalanced maps besides CP. I do not need to watch the game to say that. I would only need to watch the game if I were to comment on their gameplay. If the same thing happened again I wouldn't say anything different. I wouldn't comment anything on their gameplay, but I'd definitely say what's apparent with the results.
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On April 11 2006 00:05 NubainMuscle wrote: It was impressive, I will grant you that.
I just wonder who said this just a couple of posts ago:
I'm also unimpressed by an unnecessary maelstorm when the protoss user already has the game won
Apparently you're just repeatedly trying to find ways to change around your original statements just to avoid saying you're wrong. That's pathetic.
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on an unrelated note, you said in that thread that goodfriend threw away the 5th game of the final against july due to horrible mnm control. i want you to load up that vod please and pause at the moment that goodfriend is camped at july's choke. you can't tell me goodfriend had the game won right there. july had PLENTY of mutas and goodfriend did not lose marines to terrible control, but rather july picked them off from his tightly packed blob (which is incredibly hard to do). that game was much closer than you're making it out to be.
savior vs oov was not as close as you're making it out to be. those two claims together make me believe you really dont understand starcraft beyond the numbers. it doesn't matter if you 'felt' that it was close while watching it live, any uneducated spectator can make false assumptions while watching a game.
if some of the savior vs oov games weren't rapes, i dont know what your definition of a zvt rape would be. you will never see a zerg rape a terran in 10-15 min unless there was a 4 pool or an incredible counter to an 8 rax (referring to julys games against casy and nada).
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EPT
