EPTHave you yet realized that Reach would not have won without Maelstrom? Or that Chojja WOULD have spread out his devourers and flanked Reach to death 10 minutes earlier than how long it actually went? Do you realize that Reach's maelstrom was mandatory for him to win the game? Or are you still blindly arguing that they were not "essential"?
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
Have you yet realized that Reach would not have won without Maelstrom? Or that Chojja WOULD have spread out his devourers and flanked Reach to death 10 minutes earlier than how long it actually went? Do you realize that Reach's maelstrom was mandatory for him to win the game? Or are you still blindly arguing that they were not "essential"? | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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NubainMuscle
South Africa423 Posts
On April 10 2006 21:50 tfeign wrote: And considering the fact that Chojja still had lots of drones and the middle of the map still had all its minerals there not mined out, I am once again concluding that you have not watched the VOD. You have not watched the VOD. At 1:12:11 on the fucking dot they show his last expo in the middle of the map with 1 fucking mineral patch that is nearly mined out, evidently soon because he only has 1 drone working it. He sent the remainder of his drones to the full mineral only expo in the top middle of the map as a desperate attempt to gather some extra minerals and transport them all the way back to his hatchery in the bottom middle (note he DOES NOT have a hatchery at the top middle expo). But his drones were killed by a carrier/archon force. So guess what: - Chojja didn't have lots of drones, they were killed by Reach. - The top middle expansion had all of its minerals but no hatchery, no more drones left, and it was guarded heavily by Reach's carrier/archon fleet. - I have watched the VOD. So your entire fucking post is 1 giant misconception and error. CONGRATULATIONS. YOU WIN A LIFETIME SUPPLY OF FREE SHIT SANDWICHES. Julyzerg would not make 60 mutas vs a Protoss who he knows has had the time and resources to make not only high templars with storms, but also dark archons with maelstrom. He would only mass up so many mutas if he knew he had the game won after harassing the Protoss to near death. Testie was likely exaggerating when he stated he maelstormed 60 mutalisks, so its a moot point. So you are right, JulyZerg would not build 60 mutalisks in a serious game, and its unlikely that his supply could support them. You need to look up 'exaggeration' and 'hyperbole' in the dictionary. However, JulyZerg is known to make lots of mutalisks in ZvP. Professional Zerg users have an exceedingly easy time dodging psionic storm with mutalisks, especially when it comes to harrassing the mineral line of natural expos that face a cliff or water (such as Ride of Valkyries, Namja Iyagi, etc.) Its easy to avoid archons in this case as well. You act as though a Protoss user would have the time to leisurely tech these two expensive and time consuming pathways. Hell no, they are too busy investing time and resources into building a corsair fleet, microing it, and laying down cannons, especially on maps like Namja where the natural expo's minerals are so susceptible to mutalisk harrass. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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NubainMuscle
South Africa423 Posts
On April 10 2006 22:07 KissBlade wrote: And by the way, you still don't refute how it wasn't a pimp play. A pimp play is based on entertainment, skill and ingenuity of which Reach displayed in a perfect combination. Most players would not be able to clone maelstroms that effectively and with that timing. Also, dark archons are rarely seen in against a Zerg air force on progaming TV, while Dark Archons versus Ultralings is actually a feasible tactic. tfeign's initial statement said that Reach's maelstorm was the pimpest ZvP play ever. I never said it wasn't pimp, it looked cool, but I don't think its worthy of the top honor in ZvP history. I consider Grrr vs ZergLee to be far more "pimp", as well as Stork's amazing play against GoRush. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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NubainMuscle
South Africa423 Posts
On April 10 2006 22:15 KissBlade wrote: I'm pretty certain he didn't only have one drone left. Most professional gamers have idle drones when the map is nearly mined out spread pretty much throughout their bases usually as their attention is simply diverted elsewhere. It's doubtful that they covered every single facet of the map in that VOD so without a replay, arguing that he lost all but one drone is a moot point. Even more so is, if the carrier/sair force can't break Chojja's defense, it is still a draw regardless of how well you think hallucinated archons will do against sunkens. (considering they do worse than hallucinated zealots) Whether he did or didn't is irrelevant. Reach had the top mineral only well defended. Hell Chojja could have had 120 drones idle and it wouldn't have made any difference - Reach was not going to grant Chojja access to any of the map's remaining minerals. Hallucinated archons was a potential tactic , but it was only 1 option. Keep in mind I cited the example of the hallucinated arbiter as well. Even if Chojja had some devourers remaining, he would have had to target the right one, and then Reach could simply get in a hit or 2 then run back to the safety of the archons and the HT. I am 100% sure that the only resources remaining were top middle mineral only, which Reach was defending, and the top right mineral/gas expo had 3 nearly mined out patches left, but Reach was mining those with a probe when the camera panned to that expo at 1:12:23. | ||
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NubainMuscle
South Africa423 Posts
On April 10 2006 22:18 KissBlade wrote: As for top honor in ZvP history, you may think it's not worthy of it, but you're in the minority here. Chances are, when people talk about pimp ZvP moves, that one is clearly going to be the one that brings memories. Thats fine with me. I like to form my own opinions based on my own observations. You make one mistake though in assuming that no future exhibition will surpass this one. There may very well be 10-20 phenomenal ZvPs in the near future that bury this game in an obscure alcove of Broodwar history. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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NubainMuscle
South Africa423 Posts
On April 10 2006 21:59 tfeign wrote: Have you yet realized that Reach would not have won without Maelstrom? Or that Chojja WOULD have spread out his devourers and flanked Reach to death 10 minutes earlier than how long it actually went? Do you realize that Reach's maelstrom was mandatory for him to win the game? Or are you still blindly arguing that they were not "essential"? You ignore the most important question. Chojja had no mobile units capable of attacking ground units. Result: Reach would have sealed off his access to minerals with 3 archons and an HT. Chojja would have no force to kill Reach's main defended by 12 tightly clustered cannons. IT WAS 100% IMPOSSIBLE FOR CHOJJA TO KILL REACH EVEN IF HE WON THE AIR BATTLE WITH NO CASUALTIES. I can't convey this point any more clearly and I know you are intentionally ignoring it because you cant win this argument. | ||
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NubainMuscle
South Africa423 Posts
On April 10 2006 22:28 KissBlade wrote: Maybe in the future but that's kind of a weak point isn't it? In the future maybe someone would pull off a move where they clone broodling 24 dragoons at once or something but, let's face it, we're talking about the present. It wasn't even a "point" ... just a comment. As you said, I'm in the minority with my opinion that Reach v Chojja maelstorm is not the #1 PP. However, the basis for my opinion is that Reach's maelstorm was not a necessity to win the game. Hence that is the debate : whether or not the maelstorm was necessary for Reach to win, and thus far, tfeign is failing to validate his point and he's relying on a stubborn, unfounded insistence that I have not watched the VOD despite the fact that I can tell him the exact hour, minute, and second any event took place. | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
On April 10 2006 22:29 NubainMuscle wrote: You ignore the most important question. Chojja had no mobile units capable of attacking ground units. Result: Reach would have sealed off his access to minerals with 3 archons and an HT. Chojja would have no force to kill Reach's main defended by 12 tightly clustered cannons. IT WAS 100% IMPOSSIBLE FOR CHOJJA TO KILL REACH EVEN IF HE WON THE AIR BATTLE WITH NO CASUALTIES. I can't convey this point any more clearly and I know you are intentionally ignoring it because you cant win this argument. Congratulations, now you have totally ignored all the questions I asked and begun to refute imaginary claims that I never even said anything about. I have said clearly and repeatedly that Reach could not have won the game if not for maelstrom. I see absolutely nothing confusing in this sentence, so if there is, ask for clarification. I have said clearly and repeatedly that Chojja would have obliterated Reach's air force 10 minutes earlier than the game lasted if not for maelstrom, and that if worst comes it would be a camped out draw. Did I say anything about Chojja winning? Why are you trying to refute a point that I never tried to make? Is it because you're desperate to avoid answering a question? I have said multiple times that, if not for maelstrom, the game would become a camped out draw eventually if worst comes for worst (meaning if Chojja don't manage to mine the middle expansion) after killing Reach's air. And here you are still blindly arguing that maelstrom was not "essential" to Reach winning. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
It's so incredibly hard to get any point across to him. | ||
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tfeign
United States2980 Posts
On April 10 2006 22:32 NubainMuscle wrote: It wasn't even a "point" ... just a comment. As you said, I'm in the minority with my opinion that Reach v Chojja maelstorm is not the #1 PP. However, the basis for my opinion is that Reach's maelstorm was not a necessity to win the game. Hence that is the debate : whether or not the maelstorm was necessary for Reach to win, and thus far, tfeign is failing to validate his point and he's relying on a stubborn, unfounded insistence that I have not watched the VOD despite the fact that I can tell him the exact hour, minute, and second any event took place. Your argument that a pimp move has to be a move that's "essential to win the game" to be a pimp move is total nonsense. Tratoss's Marine Squadron was voted the pimpest play in the sclegacy poll in last year's PP poll after they had one. Was killing 2 lurkers with 3 marines really that essential as game deciding? As far as I know, nobody even knows who eventually won the game. A pimp play is a combination of strategic value, timing, execution, creativity, quality of players/game. You base it all on just essentiality which is not what a pimp move is all about. If you think that Grrrr vs Zerglee is more pimp than the ending of Reach vs Chojja, then hold on to that opinion. However most others would rate it otherwise, deservedly, and definitely not as unjustified as you tried your best to make it out to be in your original post. | ||
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b_unnies
3579 Posts
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YoUr_KiLLeR
United States3420 Posts
On April 10 2006 21:54 tfeign wrote: All of their games played in the recent MSL were close. Any questions? oov did not have the upper hand in any of those games except the last one, and even that was questionable since he had no economy towards the end of the game. some of them were close, but savior finished even those games pretty decisively | ||
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YoUr_KiLLeR
United States3420 Posts
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YoUr_KiLLeR
United States3420 Posts
oh wait...they played on 815 and not rush hour tfeign. you'd have known that if you watched the games before talking about them like you knew what happened. | ||
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