On April 09 2006 22:44 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: ahhh tfeign once again you focus too much on results
savior's zvp is nowhere near as good as his zvt, its really really obvious if you would actually take the time to WATCH his games. He displays complete control and brilliant strategy against his terran opponents, but at times against a strong protoss he seems lost.
I watched most of his recent games vs oov. Many were so close they could have gone either way at points.
Then I watched his games vs Reach. The games were so one-sided most of the time that I could have stopped watching half-way and knew he'd win.
How exactly did you get that against a strong protoss he seems lost? The only protoss that I know of who has a winning record vs him is rA, who by the way, is barely in the lead with a close score of 3-2. Stork may have barely gotten by with a win in their last game, but before that, he was raped in a bo3 during OGN Challenge League. So here's 1 Protoss (who happens to have the best pvz in the world) has a close winning record over Savior, while low level terrans like ArtofTerran, Cloud and others who I can't recall names atm in OGN Prelim & Proleague rolls over him. There were no "complete control" nor "brilliant strategy" displayed in these games, and no excuses given the quality of these terrans. How exactly does this make his ZvT far superior than his ZvP?
I'd urge you to take your suggestion to watch the games and not just go by the results and see how he struggles so hard to defeat terrans like oov, while dominates protosses one-sidedly like Reach and tell me his ZvT is really that superior than his ZvP.
Tfeign, reach gets raped by mumyung. What is your point exactly?-- (edit: oops, I'm repeating myself Anyway, mumyung of old was a bit different from todays mumyung, but still).
Reach's PvZ is at an all time low IMO (oh how I wish he could go back to playing like he did vs yellow in the SKY 2002 semis.. all he does these days is play scared/fail at cheesing : [).
On April 07 2006 14:53 tfeign wrote: Yeah, he even lost to ArtofTerran during his prime shape http://teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=30671 as well and other lower level T's in Proleague. That why FA, I'm saying his ZvP very close to his ZvT and perhaps even on the same level.
Sure, Mumuyng has beaten Reach lately in some close games, but at one time Reach was something around 7-0 or 8-0 vs Mumyung.
I agree that he won't be the favorite vs every toss user, but very close, just like he won't be the favorite vs every terran user, but very close.
Anyway, Group C has just suddenly became the group of death. Why is it that Nal_rA ALWAYS seems to get stuck in groups of deaths?
Ok, so his ZvP and ZvT are similarily succesful, but his ZvT is more impressive !?
Savior dominated Reach at a time when Reach's PvZ was at his all-time best, not at his "all time low" as you've suggested. Beating an in-shape Chojja in a bo5, who just won an MSL, and is one of the best zergs ever + among one of the best ZvPers ever, on a series of bad PvZ maps + displaying perhaps the pimpest PvZ play ever in the process is one of, if not the biggest, PvZ highlight of his career. His PvZ was in prime shape when he had his matches vs IPX.
Out of the few of PvZ's I've watched on Raid Assault, I can only recall 1 game where Protoss won. rA was bad on this map, although part of the reason may be because he was playing July.
On April 10 2006 07:35 tfeign wrote: Out of the few of PvZ's I've watched on Raid Assault, I can only recall 1 game where Protoss won. rA was bad on this map, although part of the reason may be because he was playing July.
Hmm I have a vod of Ra raping July on Raid Assult..
On April 10 2006 09:46 ManaBlue wrote: Reach never had any PvZ success on Raid Assault. It's a weird map, I'm not really sure about it myself.
MAYBE, just maybe, it's because in every PvZ he's played on that map, that I have seen, he tried to proxy gate in the center of the map and then died to lings followed by mutas!?!? !
On April 10 2006 09:46 ManaBlue wrote: Reach never had any PvZ success on Raid Assault. It's a weird map, I'm not really sure about it myself.
MAYBE, just maybe, it's because in every PvZ he's played on that map, that I have seen, he tried to proxy gate in the center of the map and then died to lings followed by mutas!?!? !
aha so true =P. reach should stop cheesing, he sucks at it.
and btw tfeign, while savior does lose to a lot of no-names zvt, he doesn't 'barely' beat oov in all of the games. about half of the games they played were one-sided rapes and in all the others (with the exception of the dark sauron game), not once did oov have control over the game. it was either even or in savior's favor. the reason his zvt is/might be much better than his zvp is because hes raping no less than oov zvt and reach's pvz isn't on the same level as oov's tvz. so raping reach doesn't say as much about him as having a 7-0 record over oov, regardless of whether the games were close or not (most of them weren't).
On April 10 2006 09:46 ManaBlue wrote: Reach never had any PvZ success on Raid Assault. It's a weird map, I'm not really sure about it myself.
MAYBE, just maybe, it's because in every PvZ he's played on that map, that I have seen, he tried to proxy gate in the center of the map and then died to lings followed by mutas!?!? !
Haha, fine true. But Reach is the master of all that is PvZ, so when he does cheese builds it's because he genuinly feels shit out of luck in the match up.
On April 10 2006 09:46 ManaBlue wrote: Reach never had any PvZ success on Raid Assault. It's a weird map, I'm not really sure about it myself.
MAYBE, just maybe, it's because in every PvZ he's played on that map, that I have seen, he tried to proxy gate in the center of the map and then died to lings followed by mutas!?!? !
Haha, fine true. But Reach is the master of all that is PvZ, so when he does cheese builds it's because he genuinly feels shit out of luck in the match up.
It's sad but true.
I'm pretty curious how the practicing goes for Reach. Himself, his practice partners, and his coach all decide that the stupid and weird builds that he does are his best shot? Is it really that impossible to have a good, conservative build? It just seems that with all the hours and support Koreans have to prepare for a big match something better could be ironed out. Oh well! I'll be eager to see ra's approaches to his PvZ games
On April 10 2006 09:46 ManaBlue wrote: Reach never had any PvZ success on Raid Assault. It's a weird map, I'm not really sure about it myself.
MAYBE, just maybe, it's because in every PvZ he's played on that map, that I have seen, he tried to proxy gate in the center of the map and then died to lings followed by mutas!?!? !
aha so true =P. reach should stop cheesing, he sucks at it.
and btw tfeign, while savior does lose to a lot of no-names zvt, he doesn't 'barely' beat oov in all of the games. about half of the games they played were one-sided rapes and in all the others (with the exception of the dark sauron game), not once did oov have control over the game. it was either even or in savior's favor. the reason his zvt is/might be much better than his zvp is because hes raping no less than oov zvt and reach's pvz isn't on the same level as oov's tvz. so raping reach doesn't say as much about him as having a 7-0 record over oov, regardless of whether the games were close or not (most of them weren't).
The ones that I watched were pretty close games. Even if half of them were, that's a lot lot more than the Reach vs savior series. At the time Reach had his matches against him, his pvz was in absolute top-form.
And even if you think that dominating oov means more zvt than dominating Reach zvp, then what about all those low-level terrans he lose to? Does Savior lose to any low-level Protoss? His ZvP record vs different opponents is far, far more consistent than his ZvT record vs different opponents. Yes, beating oov is definitely impressive, but at the same losing to low level terrans is not something that happens to him vs Protoss opponents.
Yes, that I can agree to. I can't see how any korean zerg in the top 20 where you can say their ZvT is clearly, truly better than their ZvP. But the gap between Savior's ZvT and ZvP talent is far, far closer together compared to any other zergs.
On April 10 2006 03:22 tfeign wrote: Displaying perhaps the pimpest PvZ play ever in the process is one of, if not the biggest, PvZ highlight of his career. His PvZ was in prime shape when he had his matches vs IPX.
Pimpest PvZ play ever? It had little to no bearing on the final outcome of the game. It never ceases to amaze me how underused units or spells like maelstorm receive so much attention. I would be sympathetic if it was a situation like Grrr.... vs ZergLee where maelstorm use was absolutely essential to his survival, but in Reach's case it was simply concluding a drawn out game in style. Although I will admit it did look extremely impressive and elicited an enormous response from the audience. Great for ratings and popularity? Absolutely. Necessary to win the game? Nope.
GoRush (v Stork - Sky Proleague) and Chojja have clearly demonstrated that several hotkeys of devourers are not nearly as threatening as they appear. From my perspective they are an effective supplement to a balanced army, nothing more.
EPT
Anyway, mumyung of old was a bit different from todays mumyung, but still).
