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On October 21 2012 16:19 Stratos wrote:Some thoughts from a discussion with Dollar. Compared to what money you want to invest into this, the promotion of this is ridiculously bad. One ugly picture and a thread full of words and a shitton of FAQ nobody will possibly read. You say you contacted some people (casters?) to help you promote this thing, none of them replied. Wonder why? There's a complex coverage on TL but not once has this been mentioned elsewhere outside this thread. Wonder why? A lot of people did not have confidence in this at first and there's a reason. If there is something great to come, it should be presented that way. One should be able to tell that the people behind it are serious. How come this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375617 looks some 2000% more professional than this thread? I get it, it's hard to get help from volunteers because not many people had faith in this in the first place = and we're in an endless circle. In my opinion, the easy solution here is to take a small part of the prizepool and just invest it into promotion. Hire someone to make a SIMPLE website, graphics for the thread, some hype vid even, where the organization explains what's going to happen and why. It doesn't have to be top quality, it just has to be something. I don't know if anything is under construction, but if not, it really needs to happen. Asap. Coupled with the uneasy sign-up process (45 replays, really?), this is hurting the event in so many ways. If the people behind this don't know what needs to be done in terms of PR in the first place, just hire someone to do it all. I'm sure there's plenty of people from the sc2 scene who would be happy to take the opportunity. Use them. Once you get a quality hype going, people will spread the word and more people will join, volunteers will show up and it can all happen. As it is, people are hesitating to even mention the event because they don't want to be the ones to promote a scam or something that's just not going to happen. Splitting the tournament into parts and making Moscow happen would be a good step in removing these doubts. But if you want to make it pure BW, you want to make sure Moscow doesn't fail in the first place. Use your money wisely. What seems a waste might actually be crucial for this to happen. edit: Just read signing up ends november 3rd.. well I guess that makes promotion for Moscow kinda useless. Focus on the next one then I guess :< Make sure there's good footage to use from the event in Moscow.
One post that makes more sense than few weeks (months?) of work by one of the best bw tourney's organizer.
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On October 21 2012 23:52 )Messer( wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 16:19 Stratos wrote:Some thoughts from a discussion with Dollar. Compared to what money you want to invest into this, the promotion of this is ridiculously bad. One ugly picture and a thread full of words and a shitton of FAQ nobody will possibly read. You say you contacted some people (casters?) to help you promote this thing, none of them replied. Wonder why? There's a complex coverage on TL but not once has this been mentioned elsewhere outside this thread. Wonder why? A lot of people did not have confidence in this at first and there's a reason. If there is something great to come, it should be presented that way. One should be able to tell that the people behind it are serious. How come this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375617 looks some 2000% more professional than this thread? I get it, it's hard to get help from volunteers because not many people had faith in this in the first place = and we're in an endless circle. In my opinion, the easy solution here is to take a small part of the prizepool and just invest it into promotion. Hire someone to make a SIMPLE website, graphics for the thread, some hype vid even, where the organization explains what's going to happen and why. It doesn't have to be top quality, it just has to be something. I don't know if anything is under construction, but if not, it really needs to happen. Asap. Coupled with the uneasy sign-up process (45 replays, really?), this is hurting the event in so many ways. If the people behind this don't know what needs to be done in terms of PR in the first place, just hire someone to do it all. I'm sure there's plenty of people from the sc2 scene who would be happy to take the opportunity. Use them. Once you get a quality hype going, people will spread the word and more people will join, volunteers will show up and it can all happen. As it is, people are hesitating to even mention the event because they don't want to be the ones to promote a scam or something that's just not going to happen. Splitting the tournament into parts and making Moscow happen would be a good step in removing these doubts. But if you want to make it pure BW, you want to make sure Moscow doesn't fail in the first place. Use your money wisely. What seems a waste might actually be crucial for this to happen. edit: Just read signing up ends november 3rd.. well I guess that makes promotion for Moscow kinda useless. Focus on the next one then I guess :< Make sure there's good footage to use from the event in Moscow. One post that makes more sense than few weeks (months?) of work by one of the best bw tourney's organizer.
*Couple days - I really haven't invested any time into Brood War in the past couple months and I have no interest in increasing this number given the community. Refer to my previous reply to stratos.
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Croatia9527 Posts
On October 21 2012 23:51 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 16:19 Stratos wrote:Some thoughts from a discussion with Dollar. Compared to what money you want to invest into this, the promotion of this is ridiculously bad. One ugly picture and a thread full of words and a shitton of FAQ nobody will possibly read. You say you contacted some people (casters?) to help you promote this thing, none of them replied. Wonder why? There's a complex coverage on TL but not once has this been mentioned elsewhere outside this thread. Wonder why? A lot of people did not have confidence in this at first and there's a reason. If there is something great to come, it should be presented that way. One should be able to tell that the people behind it are serious. How come this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375617 looks some 2000% more professional than this thread? I get it, it's hard to get help from volunteers because not many people had faith in this in the first place = and we're in an endless circle. In my opinion, the easy solution here is to take a small part of the prizepool and just invest it into promotion. Hire someone to make a SIMPLE website, graphics for the thread, some hype vid even, where the organization explains what's going to happen and why. It doesn't have to be top quality, it just has to be something. I don't know if anything is under construction, but if not, it really needs to happen. Asap. Coupled with the uneasy sign-up process (45 replays, really?), this is hurting the event in so many ways. If the people behind this don't know what needs to be done in terms of PR in the first place, just hire someone to do it all. I'm sure there's plenty of people from the sc2 scene who would be happy to take the opportunity. Use them. Once you get a quality hype going, people will spread the word and more people will join, volunteers will show up and it can all happen. As it is, people are hesitating to even mention the event because they don't want to be the ones to promote a scam or something that's just not going to happen. Splitting the tournament into parts and making Moscow happen would be a good step in removing these doubts. But if you want to make it pure BW, you want to make sure Moscow doesn't fail in the first place. Use your money wisely. What seems a waste might actually be crucial for this to happen. edit: Just read signing up ends november 3rd.. well I guess that makes promotion for Moscow kinda useless. Focus on the next one then I guess :< Make sure there's good footage to use from the event in Moscow. About 30th person to rip out the event without actually any intent on doing anything about it. I'm already done trying to recover anything for the Brood War community, if this turns out to be a match between all of the brood war players we already know and are in our community, than so be it... I don't care. It's no longer about expansion anymore for me. If you guys want your community to expand, you're free to advertise, do some shenanigans. I have no interest in doing so.
That attitude is exactly the reason why you're bad at this. If you can't take a well-intended, constructive criticism and learn from it, then anything you do is doomed to fail. I know the Brood War community is desperate now to take whatever we can get, but we shouldn't be willing to sacrifice quality to get it.
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On October 21 2012 23:56 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 23:52 )Messer( wrote:On October 21 2012 16:19 Stratos wrote:Some thoughts from a discussion with Dollar. Compared to what money you want to invest into this, the promotion of this is ridiculously bad. One ugly picture and a thread full of words and a shitton of FAQ nobody will possibly read. You say you contacted some people (casters?) to help you promote this thing, none of them replied. Wonder why? There's a complex coverage on TL but not once has this been mentioned elsewhere outside this thread. Wonder why? A lot of people did not have confidence in this at first and there's a reason. If there is something great to come, it should be presented that way. One should be able to tell that the people behind it are serious. How come this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375617 looks some 2000% more professional than this thread? I get it, it's hard to get help from volunteers because not many people had faith in this in the first place = and we're in an endless circle. In my opinion, the easy solution here is to take a small part of the prizepool and just invest it into promotion. Hire someone to make a SIMPLE website, graphics for the thread, some hype vid even, where the organization explains what's going to happen and why. It doesn't have to be top quality, it just has to be something. I don't know if anything is under construction, but if not, it really needs to happen. Asap. Coupled with the uneasy sign-up process (45 replays, really?), this is hurting the event in so many ways. If the people behind this don't know what needs to be done in terms of PR in the first place, just hire someone to do it all. I'm sure there's plenty of people from the sc2 scene who would be happy to take the opportunity. Use them. Once you get a quality hype going, people will spread the word and more people will join, volunteers will show up and it can all happen. As it is, people are hesitating to even mention the event because they don't want to be the ones to promote a scam or something that's just not going to happen. Splitting the tournament into parts and making Moscow happen would be a good step in removing these doubts. But if you want to make it pure BW, you want to make sure Moscow doesn't fail in the first place. Use your money wisely. What seems a waste might actually be crucial for this to happen. edit: Just read signing up ends november 3rd.. well I guess that makes promotion for Moscow kinda useless. Focus on the next one then I guess :< Make sure there's good footage to use from the event in Moscow. One post that makes more sense than few weeks (months?) of work by one of the best bw tourney's organizer. *Couple days - I really haven't invested any time into Brood War in the past couple months and I have no interest in increasing this number given the community. Refer to my previous reply to stratos.
and what exactly is so wrong about the best community that esport has ever seen ???
If you have resources to help BW by organizing stuff like this but you dont want to do it then ask someone else to do it.. like Game or somebody idk.. somebody that want and will invest time in this.. you'll still be loved for giving the money and the tournament will be amazing !
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Ok, I thought you wanted to do something 'big'. But if you don't have interest, this event won't happen itself. Of course I'm still looking forward to see this series live but i don't expect it will surprise me.
Stratos and probably many more people would help if you realized that you need help. I admit that I'm mostly criticising because I personally don't like you but I have more ideas how to help and what to change. Therefore my criticism isn't constructive at all. You chose to make hype before preparations are finished but seems that hype isn't enough thing to encourage people to show interest.
Sorry for multiple edits
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On October 22 2012 00:23 )Messer( wrote:
Ok, I thought you wanted to do something 'big'. But if you don't have interest, this event won't happen itself. Of course I'm still looking forward to see this series live but i don't expect it will surprise me.
Stratos and probably many more people would help if you realized that you need help. I admit that I'm mostly criticising because I personally don't like you but I have more ideas how to help and what to change. Therefore my criticism isn't constructive at all. You chose to make hype before preparations are finished but seems that hype isn't enough thing to encourage people to show interest.
Sorry for multiple edits
Oh, the whole world can tell who is posting simply because they don't like me just because how the posts are formulated. i.e. You, 2pac, countless others in original thread.
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On October 22 2012 00:15 Sinedd wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 23:56 Eywa- wrote:On October 21 2012 23:52 )Messer( wrote:On October 21 2012 16:19 Stratos wrote:Some thoughts from a discussion with Dollar. Compared to what money you want to invest into this, the promotion of this is ridiculously bad. One ugly picture and a thread full of words and a shitton of FAQ nobody will possibly read. You say you contacted some people (casters?) to help you promote this thing, none of them replied. Wonder why? There's a complex coverage on TL but not once has this been mentioned elsewhere outside this thread. Wonder why? A lot of people did not have confidence in this at first and there's a reason. If there is something great to come, it should be presented that way. One should be able to tell that the people behind it are serious. How come this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375617 looks some 2000% more professional than this thread? I get it, it's hard to get help from volunteers because not many people had faith in this in the first place = and we're in an endless circle. In my opinion, the easy solution here is to take a small part of the prizepool and just invest it into promotion. Hire someone to make a SIMPLE website, graphics for the thread, some hype vid even, where the organization explains what's going to happen and why. It doesn't have to be top quality, it just has to be something. I don't know if anything is under construction, but if not, it really needs to happen. Asap. Coupled with the uneasy sign-up process (45 replays, really?), this is hurting the event in so many ways. If the people behind this don't know what needs to be done in terms of PR in the first place, just hire someone to do it all. I'm sure there's plenty of people from the sc2 scene who would be happy to take the opportunity. Use them. Once you get a quality hype going, people will spread the word and more people will join, volunteers will show up and it can all happen. As it is, people are hesitating to even mention the event because they don't want to be the ones to promote a scam or something that's just not going to happen. Splitting the tournament into parts and making Moscow happen would be a good step in removing these doubts. But if you want to make it pure BW, you want to make sure Moscow doesn't fail in the first place. Use your money wisely. What seems a waste might actually be crucial for this to happen. edit: Just read signing up ends november 3rd.. well I guess that makes promotion for Moscow kinda useless. Focus on the next one then I guess :< Make sure there's good footage to use from the event in Moscow. One post that makes more sense than few weeks (months?) of work by one of the best bw tourney's organizer. *Couple days - I really haven't invested any time into Brood War in the past couple months and I have no interest in increasing this number given the community. Refer to my previous reply to stratos. and what exactly is so wrong about the best community that esport has ever seen ??? If you have resources to help BW by organizing stuff like this but you dont want to do it then ask someone else to do it.. like Game or somebody idk.. somebody that want and will invest time in this.. you'll still be loved for giving the money and the tournament will be amazing !
I'm pretty sure that no one who organizes (or plays) anything would tell you that the current BW community is not anything close to the best esports has ever seen. It's really a shame.
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We were discussing the event with Dollar, because we wanted to make it a success in Prague. We thought we found a flaw in the overall design and considered it best to present it to you. This flaw was most certainly holding back people from helping or even paying attention to the event. Why care if it's most likely not going to happen anyway? Should I share with my friends if I don't even know? Should I link people to the thread that looks precisely as a really bad scam would look like?
Should I invest my time to make it better if I don't have any guarantee that it's real?
Personally I didn't even ask myself the last question because I don't consider my editing skills good enough to appropriately present the event the way it should be presented. And yes, if it's an event with that prizepool, it should be well presented.
Whether this flaw worked subconsciously or otherwise, the effect is clear enough. The only way to prove that it's all real was to either get a large enough group of people to work on it together or to show that you have the money by investing some of it beforehand. That's what all the events out there do, and it's for a reason. It won't happen just by saying: Hi folks, we worked really hard, have an unreal amount of money, please help us make this happen (without the please). Actually there is nothing about seeking for help or volunteers in the OP, unless it's hidden in the FAQ.
If you can't work with people, which seems to be the case here (and should not be taken as an insult, but just an observation), you've got to do the latter or leave it to someone more capable in this regard. If you come up with something and say you're going to make it happen, then you either make it happen or lose credibility. At this point, this is something only you can fix. You cannot blame the people for not trusting you. But more importantly, you cannot blame anyone for not donating their time, even if they did trust you. We didn't come up with this event, you did. If you knew you couldn't make it happen on your own, you could've at least said so.
What was actually written in the original thread was: "Ladies and Gentlemen, the Euro 2013 Winter games have arrived. The stage is set, all that remains are the players and fans. This winter, we will be providing you with non-stop Starcraft: Brood War action as we tour the globe seeking out each Nation's finest Starcraft players. This tournament is the first of it's kind since World Cyber Games itself. Also, boasting the second highest recorded prize in foreign Brood War history, it is sure to be a spectacle of special magnificence."
This is not the end of the world though. Moscow can by a trial to see if you can actually make the event run smoothly. If you can, the championship will hopefully regain at least some of the needed credibility. Make sure the event in Moscow is a fucking blast and I'm sure more people will be interested in helping and playing in the next one.
+ Show Spoiler [more personal appeal] +Note - I'm not saying you're a bad person if this whole thing doesn't turn out to be as good as was expected or even if it doesn't happen at all, obviously if your intentions were such as you claim them to be, you're actually an awesome guy. Nonetheless, if you come up with something awesome and present it as a ready project but then can't make it properly happen, you will lose your credibility - if there was any to begin with (I don't really know you so I can't judge). Blaming others now for not stepping up, regardless of the reasons, or saying you don't care will work too. As the organizer, it is your job to make this as best as possible given the circumstances. I've done my share of organizing shit for others in the past so I know it can will be rough. But if you can't deal with it, then please do consider finding someone else to do it. Pay them using some of the money from the prizepool if you must. I'm sure people will understand. If someone recognizes a flaw and you agree that it is in fact a flaw, you should try to fix it. Or you can give up, that is your call to make. Lastly, to be perfectly clear, the flaws in the presentation of this tournament are nowhere near as important as the organizer saying he doesn't care. I hope you can somehow get over this criticism and accept it the way it is meant. All I'm saying is that there are things you need to improve if you want the tournament to work better. Since you're the organizer, this is basically the same thing as if I was pointing out flaws on your children. Everyone hates that. Also anyone who ever made/produced/painted/written/organized anything and presented to others for free was disappointed or even angry when others disapproved. I'm also slightly annoyed at you saying I didn't do or intend to do anything for this event - as if I wasn't ever doing anything productive for the scene, you mofo! (  ). This feeling is only natural, but as an organizer you need to get over it. You can disagree with what I wrote about the PR and its importance and that's fine, it's your tournament. But if you're going to get angry at me and the community instead for not doing anything about it, then you failed as an organizer, because the organizer is supposed to fix the problems. That is the position you put yourself in. I hope you can still fix this. Or let someone else do it. Both options seem better than giving up because you believe a couple of people here don't like you or don't trust you enough etc.
Sorry for the long post but since this is something that could play a huge role for BW in the future, I do believe it is worth taking some time and thinking it through. Please do. It would be a tragedy to let this die just because of a few simple errors and a misunderstanding and giving up instead of facing these. Take a couple of hours or even days and see if you can find some inner spirit and get over the couple of people disliking you or whatever is the underlying issue here. You know I don't know you, I haven't really heard anything about you either and even if I did I wouldn't care unless I actually got to know you myself, so none of the above or my original post was meant to attack your persona in any way. I hope that's clear. I do have a tendency to talk bluntly about the things I don't consider to be flawless, so sorry about that.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 21 2012 16:19 Stratos wrote:Some thoughts from a discussion with Dollar. Compared to what money you want to invest into this, the promotion of this is ridiculously bad. One ugly picture and a thread full of words and a shitton of FAQ nobody will possibly read. You say you contacted some people (casters?) to help you promote this thing, none of them replied. Wonder why? There's a complex coverage on TL but not once has this been mentioned elsewhere outside this thread. Wonder why? A lot of people did not have confidence in this at first and there's a reason. If there is something great to come, it should be presented that way. One should be able to tell that the people behind it are serious. How come this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375617 looks some 2000% more professional than this thread? I get it, it's hard to get help from volunteers because not many people had faith in this in the first place = and we're in an endless circle. In my opinion, the easy solution here is to take a small part of the prizepool and just invest it into promotion. Hire someone to make a SIMPLE website, graphics for the thread, some hype vid even, where the organization explains what's going to happen and why. It doesn't have to be top quality, it just has to be something. I don't know if anything is under construction, but if not, it really needs to happen. Asap. Coupled with the uneasy sign-up process (45 replays, really?), this is hurting the event in so many ways. If the people behind this don't know what needs to be done in terms of PR in the first place, just hire someone to do it all. I'm sure there's plenty of people from the sc2 scene who would be happy to take the opportunity. Use them. Once you get a quality hype going, people will spread the word and more people will join, volunteers will show up and it can all happen. As it is, people are hesitating to even mention the event because they don't want to be the ones to promote a scam or something that's just not going to happen. Splitting the tournament into parts and making Moscow happen would be a good step in removing these doubts. But if you want to make it pure BW, you want to make sure Moscow doesn't fail in the first place. Use your money wisely. What seems a waste might actually be crucial for this to happen. edit: Just read signing up ends november 3rd.. well I guess that makes promotion for Moscow kinda useless. Focus on the next one then I guess :< Make sure there's good footage to use from the event in Moscow.
This.
I actually PM'd Eywa to ask if SC2 personalities that were involved with BW and were invested would be interesting in being a part of this event, but Eywa didn't replay.
I would really like to see this event be a success, but I'm afraid that without the help of people like maybe Day9, Artosis, Tastless (The list goes on) to promote the event in the SC2 community we just can't. Getting just a couple of these people on board would insure a successful event. I know that some people feel like they ''sold out'' , but did they?
They stuck with Brood War for many many years. They were invested so much it might be in the past, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't support this. This would be the biggest LAN event in the history of foreign Brood war and these SOME of these guys would surely participate to keep their memory of BW alive or maybe something more!
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On October 21 2012 23:51 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 16:19 Stratos wrote:Some thoughts from a discussion with Dollar. Compared to what money you want to invest into this, the promotion of this is ridiculously bad. One ugly picture and a thread full of words and a shitton of FAQ nobody will possibly read. You say you contacted some people (casters?) to help you promote this thing, none of them replied. Wonder why? There's a complex coverage on TL but not once has this been mentioned elsewhere outside this thread. Wonder why? A lot of people did not have confidence in this at first and there's a reason. If there is something great to come, it should be presented that way. One should be able to tell that the people behind it are serious. How come this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375617 looks some 2000% more professional than this thread? I get it, it's hard to get help from volunteers because not many people had faith in this in the first place = and we're in an endless circle. In my opinion, the easy solution here is to take a small part of the prizepool and just invest it into promotion. Hire someone to make a SIMPLE website, graphics for the thread, some hype vid even, where the organization explains what's going to happen and why. It doesn't have to be top quality, it just has to be something. I don't know if anything is under construction, but if not, it really needs to happen. Asap. Coupled with the uneasy sign-up process (45 replays, really?), this is hurting the event in so many ways. If the people behind this don't know what needs to be done in terms of PR in the first place, just hire someone to do it all. I'm sure there's plenty of people from the sc2 scene who would be happy to take the opportunity. Use them. Once you get a quality hype going, people will spread the word and more people will join, volunteers will show up and it can all happen. As it is, people are hesitating to even mention the event because they don't want to be the ones to promote a scam or something that's just not going to happen. Splitting the tournament into parts and making Moscow happen would be a good step in removing these doubts. But if you want to make it pure BW, you want to make sure Moscow doesn't fail in the first place. Use your money wisely. What seems a waste might actually be crucial for this to happen. edit: Just read signing up ends november 3rd.. well I guess that makes promotion for Moscow kinda useless. Focus on the next one then I guess :< Make sure there's good footage to use from the event in Moscow. About 30th person to rip out the event without actually any intent on doing anything about it. I'm already done trying to recover anything for the Brood War community, if this turns out to be a match between all of the brood war players we already know and are in our community, than so be it... I don't care. It's no longer about expansion anymore for me. If you guys want your community to expand, you're free to advertise, do some shenanigans. I have no interest in doing so.
What do you expect us to do.
I mean there are people who would on your behalf talk to SC2 personalities to make sure that the event will get advertised, but you can't expect us to do it on our own. You can't expect random people to talk on your behalf and promise something that might not be possible from the organization stand point.
I know that you love BW and you have done a lot for it, BUT I just don't understand you put such a huge effort into this and you aren't willing to take 1 more step that is surely a lot simpler than getting the sponsorship money and such.
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On October 22 2012 02:34 Stratos wrote:+ Show Spoiler +We were discussing the event with Dollar, because we wanted to make it a success in Prague. We thought we found a flaw in the overall design and considered it best to present it to you. This flaw was most certainly holding back people from helping or even paying attention to the event. Why care if it's most likely not going to happen anyway? Should I share with my friends if I don't even know? Should I link people to the thread that looks precisely as a really bad scam would look like? Should I invest my time to make it better if I don't have any guarantee that it's real?Personally I didn't even ask myself the last question because I don't consider my editing skills good enough to appropriately present the event the way it should be presented. And yes, if it's an event with that prizepool, it should be well presented. Whether this flaw worked subconsciously or otherwise, the effect is clear enough. The only way to prove that it's all real was to either get a large enough group of people to work on it together or to show that you have the money by investing some of it beforehand. That's what all the events out there do, and it's for a reason. It won't happen just by saying: Hi folks, we worked really hard, have an unreal amount of money, please help us make this happen (without the please). Actually there is nothing about seeking for help or volunteers in the OP, unless it's hidden in the FAQ. If you can't work with people, which seems to be the case here (and should not be taken as an insult, but just an observation), you've got to do the latter or leave it to someone more capable in this regard. If you come up with something and say you're going to make it happen, then you either make it happen or lose credibility. At this point, this is something only you can fix. You cannot blame the people for not trusting you. But more importantly, you cannot blame anyone for not donating their time, even if they did trust you. We didn't come up with this event, you did. If you knew you couldn't make it happen on your own, you could've at least said so. What was actually written in the original thread was: "Ladies and Gentlemen, the Euro 2013 Winter games have arrived. The stage is set, all that remains are the players and fans. This winter, we will be providing you with non-stop Starcraft: Brood War action as we tour the globe seeking out each Nation's finest Starcraft players. This tournament is the first of it's kind since World Cyber Games itself. Also, boasting the second highest recorded prize in foreign Brood War history, it is sure to be a spectacle of special magnificence."This is not the end of the world though. Moscow can by a trial to see if you can actually make the event run smoothly. If you can, the championship will hopefully regain at least some of the needed credibility. Make sure the event in Moscow is a fucking blast and I'm sure more people will be interested in helping and playing in the next one. + Show Spoiler [more personal appeal] +Note - I'm not saying you're a bad person if this whole thing doesn't turn out to be as good as was expected or even if it doesn't happen at all, obviously if your intentions were such as you claim them to be, you're actually an awesome guy. Nonetheless, if you come up with something awesome and present it as a ready project but then can't make it properly happen, you will lose your credibility - if there was any to begin with (I don't really know you so I can't judge). Blaming others now for not stepping up, regardless of the reasons, or saying you don't care will work too. As the organizer, it is your job to make this as best as possible given the circumstances. I've done my share of organizing shit for others in the past so I know it can will be rough. But if you can't deal with it, then please do consider finding someone else to do it. Pay them using some of the money from the prizepool if you must. I'm sure people will understand. If someone recognizes a flaw and you agree that it is in fact a flaw, you should try to fix it. Or you can give up, that is your call to make. Lastly, to be perfectly clear, the flaws in the presentation of this tournament are nowhere near as important as the organizer saying he doesn't care. I hope you can somehow get over this criticism and accept it the way it is meant. All I'm saying is that there are things you need to improve if you want the tournament to work better. Since you're the organizer, this is basically the same thing as if I was pointing out flaws on your children. Everyone hates that. Also anyone who ever made/produced/painted/written/organized anything and presented to others for free was disappointed or even angry when others disapproved. I'm also slightly annoyed at you saying I didn't do or intend to do anything for this event - as if I wasn't ever doing anything productive for the scene, you mofo! ( ). This feeling is only natural, but as an organizer you need to get over it. You can disagree with what I wrote about the PR and its importance and that's fine, it's your tournament. But if you're going to get angry at me and the community instead for not doing anything about it, then you failed as an organizer, because the organizer is supposed to fix the problems. That is the position you put yourself in. I hope you can still fix this. Or let someone else do it. Both options seem better than giving up because you believe a couple of people here don't like you or don't trust you enough etc. Sorry for the long post but since this is something that could play a huge role for BW in the future, I do believe it is worth taking some time and thinking it through. Please do. It would be a tragedy to let this die just because of a few simple errors and a misunderstanding and giving up instead of facing these. Take a couple of hours or even days and see if you can find some inner spirit and get over the couple of people disliking you or whatever is the underlying issue here. You know I don't know you, I haven't really heard anything about you either and even if I did I wouldn't care unless I actually got to know you myself, so none of the above or my original post was meant to attack your persona in any way. I hope that's clear. I do have a tendency to talk bluntly about the things I don't consider to be flawless, so sorry about that.
And to be frank you did advertise the LAN a bit in one of your vids.
I am a 100% okay with money being taken away from the prize pool to get money for graphics, advertisement etc etc.
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On October 22 2012 02:44 thezanursic wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 21 2012 16:19 Stratos wrote:Some thoughts from a discussion with Dollar. Compared to what money you want to invest into this, the promotion of this is ridiculously bad. One ugly picture and a thread full of words and a shitton of FAQ nobody will possibly read. You say you contacted some people (casters?) to help you promote this thing, none of them replied. Wonder why? There's a complex coverage on TL but not once has this been mentioned elsewhere outside this thread. Wonder why? A lot of people did not have confidence in this at first and there's a reason. If there is something great to come, it should be presented that way. One should be able to tell that the people behind it are serious. How come this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375617 looks some 2000% more professional than this thread? I get it, it's hard to get help from volunteers because not many people had faith in this in the first place = and we're in an endless circle. In my opinion, the easy solution here is to take a small part of the prizepool and just invest it into promotion. Hire someone to make a SIMPLE website, graphics for the thread, some hype vid even, where the organization explains what's going to happen and why. It doesn't have to be top quality, it just has to be something. I don't know if anything is under construction, but if not, it really needs to happen. Asap. Coupled with the uneasy sign-up process (45 replays, really?), this is hurting the event in so many ways. If the people behind this don't know what needs to be done in terms of PR in the first place, just hire someone to do it all. I'm sure there's plenty of people from the sc2 scene who would be happy to take the opportunity. Use them. Once you get a quality hype going, people will spread the word and more people will join, volunteers will show up and it can all happen. As it is, people are hesitating to even mention the event because they don't want to be the ones to promote a scam or something that's just not going to happen. Splitting the tournament into parts and making Moscow happen would be a good step in removing these doubts. But if you want to make it pure BW, you want to make sure Moscow doesn't fail in the first place. Use your money wisely. What seems a waste might actually be crucial for this to happen. edit: Just read signing up ends november 3rd.. well I guess that makes promotion for Moscow kinda useless. Focus on the next one then I guess :< Make sure there's good footage to use from the event in Moscow. This. I actually PM'd Eywa to ask if SC2 personalities that were involved with BW and were invested would be interesting in being a part of this event, but Eywa didn't replay. I would really like to see this event be a success, but I'm afraid that without the help of people like maybe Day9, Artosis, Tastless (The list goes on) to promote the event in the SC2 community we just can't. Getting just a couple of these people on board would insure a successful event. I know that some people feel like they ''sold out'' , but did they? They stuck with Brood War for many many years. They were invested so much it might be in the past, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't support this. This would be the biggest LAN event in the history of foreign Brood war and these SOME of these guys would surely participate to keep their memory of BW alive or maybe something more!
I apologize for the lack of a reply, I had every intention of replying to it and it is that I have already tried to contact countless figures from SC2, it doesn't work. None of the have interest and/or can't work for Brood War atm for whatever reason. I've tried for many different events.
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On October 22 2012 08:02 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 02:44 thezanursic wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 21 2012 16:19 Stratos wrote:Some thoughts from a discussion with Dollar. Compared to what money you want to invest into this, the promotion of this is ridiculously bad. One ugly picture and a thread full of words and a shitton of FAQ nobody will possibly read. You say you contacted some people (casters?) to help you promote this thing, none of them replied. Wonder why? There's a complex coverage on TL but not once has this been mentioned elsewhere outside this thread. Wonder why? A lot of people did not have confidence in this at first and there's a reason. If there is something great to come, it should be presented that way. One should be able to tell that the people behind it are serious. How come this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=375617 looks some 2000% more professional than this thread? I get it, it's hard to get help from volunteers because not many people had faith in this in the first place = and we're in an endless circle. In my opinion, the easy solution here is to take a small part of the prizepool and just invest it into promotion. Hire someone to make a SIMPLE website, graphics for the thread, some hype vid even, where the organization explains what's going to happen and why. It doesn't have to be top quality, it just has to be something. I don't know if anything is under construction, but if not, it really needs to happen. Asap. Coupled with the uneasy sign-up process (45 replays, really?), this is hurting the event in so many ways. If the people behind this don't know what needs to be done in terms of PR in the first place, just hire someone to do it all. I'm sure there's plenty of people from the sc2 scene who would be happy to take the opportunity. Use them. Once you get a quality hype going, people will spread the word and more people will join, volunteers will show up and it can all happen. As it is, people are hesitating to even mention the event because they don't want to be the ones to promote a scam or something that's just not going to happen. Splitting the tournament into parts and making Moscow happen would be a good step in removing these doubts. But if you want to make it pure BW, you want to make sure Moscow doesn't fail in the first place. Use your money wisely. What seems a waste might actually be crucial for this to happen. edit: Just read signing up ends november 3rd.. well I guess that makes promotion for Moscow kinda useless. Focus on the next one then I guess :< Make sure there's good footage to use from the event in Moscow. This. I actually PM'd Eywa to ask if SC2 personalities that were involved with BW and were invested would be interesting in being a part of this event, but Eywa didn't replay. I would really like to see this event be a success, but I'm afraid that without the help of people like maybe Day9, Artosis, Tastless (The list goes on) to promote the event in the SC2 community we just can't. Getting just a couple of these people on board would insure a successful event. I know that some people feel like they ''sold out'' , but did they? They stuck with Brood War for many many years. They were invested so much it might be in the past, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't support this. This would be the biggest LAN event in the history of foreign Brood war and these SOME of these guys would surely participate to keep their memory of BW alive or maybe something more! I apologize for the lack of a reply, I had every intention of replying to it and it is that I have already tried to contact countless figures from SC2, it doesn't work. None of the have interest and/or can't work for Brood War atm for whatever reason. I've tried for many different events.
Because helping BW grow = killing SC2.
And SC2 being job, that's like asking to get fired.
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On October 22 2012 02:34 Stratos wrote:We were discussing the event with Dollar, because we wanted to make it a success in Prague. We thought we found a flaw in the overall design and considered it best to present it to you. This flaw was most certainly holding back people from helping or even paying attention to the event. Why care if it's most likely not going to happen anyway? Should I share with my friends if I don't even know? Should I link people to the thread that looks precisely as a really bad scam would look like? Should I invest my time to make it better if I don't have any guarantee that it's real?Personally I didn't even ask myself the last question because I don't consider my editing skills good enough to appropriately present the event the way it should be presented. And yes, if it's an event with that prizepool, it should be well presented. Whether this flaw worked subconsciously or otherwise, the effect is clear enough. The only way to prove that it's all real was to either get a large enough group of people to work on it together or to show that you have the money by investing some of it beforehand. That's what all the events out there do, and it's for a reason. It won't happen just by saying: Hi folks, we worked really hard, have an unreal amount of money, please help us make this happen (without the please). Actually there is nothing about seeking for help or volunteers in the OP, unless it's hidden in the FAQ. If you can't work with people, which seems to be the case here (and should not be taken as an insult, but just an observation), you've got to do the latter or leave it to someone more capable in this regard. If you come up with something and say you're going to make it happen, then you either make it happen or lose credibility. At this point, this is something only you can fix. You cannot blame the people for not trusting you. But more importantly, you cannot blame anyone for not donating their time, even if they did trust you. We didn't come up with this event, you did. If you knew you couldn't make it happen on your own, you could've at least said so. What was actually written in the original thread was: "Ladies and Gentlemen, the Euro 2013 Winter games have arrived. The stage is set, all that remains are the players and fans. This winter, we will be providing you with non-stop Starcraft: Brood War action as we tour the globe seeking out each Nation's finest Starcraft players. This tournament is the first of it's kind since World Cyber Games itself. Also, boasting the second highest recorded prize in foreign Brood War history, it is sure to be a spectacle of special magnificence."This is not the end of the world though. Moscow can by a trial to see if you can actually make the event run smoothly. If you can, the championship will hopefully regain at least some of the needed credibility. Make sure the event in Moscow is a fucking blast and I'm sure more people will be interested in helping and playing in the next one. + Show Spoiler [more personal appeal] +Note - I'm not saying you're a bad person if this whole thing doesn't turn out to be as good as was expected or even if it doesn't happen at all, obviously if your intentions were such as you claim them to be, you're actually an awesome guy. Nonetheless, if you come up with something awesome and present it as a ready project but then can't make it properly happen, you will lose your credibility - if there was any to begin with (I don't really know you so I can't judge). Blaming others now for not stepping up, regardless of the reasons, or saying you don't care will work too. As the organizer, it is your job to make this as best as possible given the circumstances. I've done my share of organizing shit for others in the past so I know it can will be rough. But if you can't deal with it, then please do consider finding someone else to do it. Pay them using some of the money from the prizepool if you must. I'm sure people will understand. If someone recognizes a flaw and you agree that it is in fact a flaw, you should try to fix it. Or you can give up, that is your call to make. Lastly, to be perfectly clear, the flaws in the presentation of this tournament are nowhere near as important as the organizer saying he doesn't care. I hope you can somehow get over this criticism and accept it the way it is meant. All I'm saying is that there are things you need to improve if you want the tournament to work better. Since you're the organizer, this is basically the same thing as if I was pointing out flaws on your children. Everyone hates that. Also anyone who ever made/produced/painted/written/organized anything and presented to others for free was disappointed or even angry when others disapproved. I'm also slightly annoyed at you saying I didn't do or intend to do anything for this event - as if I wasn't ever doing anything productive for the scene, you mofo! ( ). This feeling is only natural, but as an organizer you need to get over it. You can disagree with what I wrote about the PR and its importance and that's fine, it's your tournament. But if you're going to get angry at me and the community instead for not doing anything about it, then you failed as an organizer, because the organizer is supposed to fix the problems. That is the position you put yourself in. I hope you can still fix this. Or let someone else do it. Both options seem better than giving up because you believe a couple of people here don't like you or don't trust you enough etc. Sorry for the long post but since this is something that could play a huge role for BW in the future, I do believe it is worth taking some time and thinking it through. Please do. It would be a tragedy to let this die just because of a few simple errors and a misunderstanding and giving up instead of facing these. Take a couple of hours or even days and see if you can find some inner spirit and get over the couple of people disliking you or whatever is the underlying issue here. You know I don't know you, I haven't really heard anything about you either and even if I did I wouldn't care unless I actually got to know you myself, so none of the above or my original post was meant to attack your persona in any way. I hope that's clear. I do have a tendency to talk bluntly about the things I don't consider to be flawless, so sorry about that.
Since we're about giving criticism, I'll give you a couple then comment on your criticism for me.
1) Have you seen the post history in both threads? The amount of flame to criticism ratio is quite off balance. It's true that this is from a certain few, which I don't get mad at because I know they either are just trolls with nothing better to do or they actually somehow don't understand anything. In either case, I can get by just by considering their situation. However, that the community backs up flamers and lists them as valid criticism is unbelievable. Given that there's a noticeable distinction between posts from people who hate me and the rest (gecko, nina, messer, 2pac)... I don't know how you guys don't pick up on this and discourage.
2) This point also takes into consideration the first. In order to provide constructive criticism, it has to be given privately, as soon as you open it up to a public discussion thread it's no longer a friendly conversation because of how people build off of it.
Otherwise I agree with a lot of your criticism, the event is not developed because I stopped doing stuff for Brood War mainly because of Gambit's Cup. As far as working with people, the only thing that came up was translators which can be found anywhere and everywhere. It's not what the event needs right now (so I apologize if it comes across as I can't work with people --- Which also should obviously not be the case given that I've worked plenty with Game, nOoNe and a few others).
On another note, I will start up full swing again for Gambit's Cup Round 2 and for these events to make them the best they possibly can be. However, I won't be doing anything for Brood War afterwards
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On October 22 2012 08:18 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 02:34 Stratos wrote:We were discussing the event with Dollar, because we wanted to make it a success in Prague. We thought we found a flaw in the overall design and considered it best to present it to you. This flaw was most certainly holding back people from helping or even paying attention to the event. Why care if it's most likely not going to happen anyway? Should I share with my friends if I don't even know? Should I link people to the thread that looks precisely as a really bad scam would look like? Should I invest my time to make it better if I don't have any guarantee that it's real?Personally I didn't even ask myself the last question because I don't consider my editing skills good enough to appropriately present the event the way it should be presented. And yes, if it's an event with that prizepool, it should be well presented. Whether this flaw worked subconsciously or otherwise, the effect is clear enough. The only way to prove that it's all real was to either get a large enough group of people to work on it together or to show that you have the money by investing some of it beforehand. That's what all the events out there do, and it's for a reason. It won't happen just by saying: Hi folks, we worked really hard, have an unreal amount of money, please help us make this happen (without the please). Actually there is nothing about seeking for help or volunteers in the OP, unless it's hidden in the FAQ. If you can't work with people, which seems to be the case here (and should not be taken as an insult, but just an observation), you've got to do the latter or leave it to someone more capable in this regard. If you come up with something and say you're going to make it happen, then you either make it happen or lose credibility. At this point, this is something only you can fix. You cannot blame the people for not trusting you. But more importantly, you cannot blame anyone for not donating their time, even if they did trust you. We didn't come up with this event, you did. If you knew you couldn't make it happen on your own, you could've at least said so. What was actually written in the original thread was: "Ladies and Gentlemen, the Euro 2013 Winter games have arrived. The stage is set, all that remains are the players and fans. This winter, we will be providing you with non-stop Starcraft: Brood War action as we tour the globe seeking out each Nation's finest Starcraft players. This tournament is the first of it's kind since World Cyber Games itself. Also, boasting the second highest recorded prize in foreign Brood War history, it is sure to be a spectacle of special magnificence."This is not the end of the world though. Moscow can by a trial to see if you can actually make the event run smoothly. If you can, the championship will hopefully regain at least some of the needed credibility. Make sure the event in Moscow is a fucking blast and I'm sure more people will be interested in helping and playing in the next one. + Show Spoiler [more personal appeal] +Note - I'm not saying you're a bad person if this whole thing doesn't turn out to be as good as was expected or even if it doesn't happen at all, obviously if your intentions were such as you claim them to be, you're actually an awesome guy. Nonetheless, if you come up with something awesome and present it as a ready project but then can't make it properly happen, you will lose your credibility - if there was any to begin with (I don't really know you so I can't judge). Blaming others now for not stepping up, regardless of the reasons, or saying you don't care will work too. As the organizer, it is your job to make this as best as possible given the circumstances. I've done my share of organizing shit for others in the past so I know it can will be rough. But if you can't deal with it, then please do consider finding someone else to do it. Pay them using some of the money from the prizepool if you must. I'm sure people will understand. If someone recognizes a flaw and you agree that it is in fact a flaw, you should try to fix it. Or you can give up, that is your call to make. Lastly, to be perfectly clear, the flaws in the presentation of this tournament are nowhere near as important as the organizer saying he doesn't care. I hope you can somehow get over this criticism and accept it the way it is meant. All I'm saying is that there are things you need to improve if you want the tournament to work better. Since you're the organizer, this is basically the same thing as if I was pointing out flaws on your children. Everyone hates that. Also anyone who ever made/produced/painted/written/organized anything and presented to others for free was disappointed or even angry when others disapproved. I'm also slightly annoyed at you saying I didn't do or intend to do anything for this event - as if I wasn't ever doing anything productive for the scene, you mofo! ( ). This feeling is only natural, but as an organizer you need to get over it. You can disagree with what I wrote about the PR and its importance and that's fine, it's your tournament. But if you're going to get angry at me and the community instead for not doing anything about it, then you failed as an organizer, because the organizer is supposed to fix the problems. That is the position you put yourself in. I hope you can still fix this. Or let someone else do it. Both options seem better than giving up because you believe a couple of people here don't like you or don't trust you enough etc. Sorry for the long post but since this is something that could play a huge role for BW in the future, I do believe it is worth taking some time and thinking it through. Please do. It would be a tragedy to let this die just because of a few simple errors and a misunderstanding and giving up instead of facing these. Take a couple of hours or even days and see if you can find some inner spirit and get over the couple of people disliking you or whatever is the underlying issue here. You know I don't know you, I haven't really heard anything about you either and even if I did I wouldn't care unless I actually got to know you myself, so none of the above or my original post was meant to attack your persona in any way. I hope that's clear. I do have a tendency to talk bluntly about the things I don't consider to be flawless, so sorry about that. Since we're about giving criticism, I'll give you a couple then comment on your criticism for me. 1) Have you seen the post history in both threads? The amount of flame to criticism ratio is quite off balance. It's true that this is from a certain few, which I don't get mad at because I know they either are just trolls with nothing better to do or they actually somehow don't understand anything. In either case, I can get by just by considering their situation. However, that the community backs up flamers and lists them as valid criticism is unbelievable. Given that there's a noticeable distinction between posts from people who hate me and the rest (gecko, nina, messer, 2pac)... I don't know how you guys don't pick up on this and discourage. 2) This point also takes into consideration the first. In order to provide constructive criticism, it has to be given privately, as soon as you open it up to a public discussion thread it's no longer a friendly conversation because of how people build off of it. Otherwise I agree with a lot of your criticism, the event is not developed because I stopped doing stuff for Brood War mainly because of Gambit's Cup. As far as working with people, the only thing that came up was translators which can be found anywhere and everywhere. It's not what the event needs right now (so I apologize if it comes across as I can't work with people --- Which also should obviously not be the case given that I've worked plenty with Game, nOoNe and a few others). On another note, I will start up full swing again for Gambit's Cup Round 2 and for these events to make them the best they possibly can be. However, I won't be doing anything for Brood War afterwards
The guy gives you a page of ways to improve it, and then he offers to help if you're interested. You guys should just already get this going instead of arguing about the same thing of getting this event going more smoothly since this is the most money for a foreign BW event.
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On October 22 2012 09:58 dRaW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 08:18 Eywa- wrote:On October 22 2012 02:34 Stratos wrote:We were discussing the event with Dollar, because we wanted to make it a success in Prague. We thought we found a flaw in the overall design and considered it best to present it to you. This flaw was most certainly holding back people from helping or even paying attention to the event. Why care if it's most likely not going to happen anyway? Should I share with my friends if I don't even know? Should I link people to the thread that looks precisely as a really bad scam would look like? Should I invest my time to make it better if I don't have any guarantee that it's real?Personally I didn't even ask myself the last question because I don't consider my editing skills good enough to appropriately present the event the way it should be presented. And yes, if it's an event with that prizepool, it should be well presented. Whether this flaw worked subconsciously or otherwise, the effect is clear enough. The only way to prove that it's all real was to either get a large enough group of people to work on it together or to show that you have the money by investing some of it beforehand. That's what all the events out there do, and it's for a reason. It won't happen just by saying: Hi folks, we worked really hard, have an unreal amount of money, please help us make this happen (without the please). Actually there is nothing about seeking for help or volunteers in the OP, unless it's hidden in the FAQ. If you can't work with people, which seems to be the case here (and should not be taken as an insult, but just an observation), you've got to do the latter or leave it to someone more capable in this regard. If you come up with something and say you're going to make it happen, then you either make it happen or lose credibility. At this point, this is something only you can fix. You cannot blame the people for not trusting you. But more importantly, you cannot blame anyone for not donating their time, even if they did trust you. We didn't come up with this event, you did. If you knew you couldn't make it happen on your own, you could've at least said so. What was actually written in the original thread was: "Ladies and Gentlemen, the Euro 2013 Winter games have arrived. The stage is set, all that remains are the players and fans. This winter, we will be providing you with non-stop Starcraft: Brood War action as we tour the globe seeking out each Nation's finest Starcraft players. This tournament is the first of it's kind since World Cyber Games itself. Also, boasting the second highest recorded prize in foreign Brood War history, it is sure to be a spectacle of special magnificence."This is not the end of the world though. Moscow can by a trial to see if you can actually make the event run smoothly. If you can, the championship will hopefully regain at least some of the needed credibility. Make sure the event in Moscow is a fucking blast and I'm sure more people will be interested in helping and playing in the next one. + Show Spoiler [more personal appeal] +Note - I'm not saying you're a bad person if this whole thing doesn't turn out to be as good as was expected or even if it doesn't happen at all, obviously if your intentions were such as you claim them to be, you're actually an awesome guy. Nonetheless, if you come up with something awesome and present it as a ready project but then can't make it properly happen, you will lose your credibility - if there was any to begin with (I don't really know you so I can't judge). Blaming others now for not stepping up, regardless of the reasons, or saying you don't care will work too. As the organizer, it is your job to make this as best as possible given the circumstances. I've done my share of organizing shit for others in the past so I know it can will be rough. But if you can't deal with it, then please do consider finding someone else to do it. Pay them using some of the money from the prizepool if you must. I'm sure people will understand. If someone recognizes a flaw and you agree that it is in fact a flaw, you should try to fix it. Or you can give up, that is your call to make. Lastly, to be perfectly clear, the flaws in the presentation of this tournament are nowhere near as important as the organizer saying he doesn't care. I hope you can somehow get over this criticism and accept it the way it is meant. All I'm saying is that there are things you need to improve if you want the tournament to work better. Since you're the organizer, this is basically the same thing as if I was pointing out flaws on your children. Everyone hates that. Also anyone who ever made/produced/painted/written/organized anything and presented to others for free was disappointed or even angry when others disapproved. I'm also slightly annoyed at you saying I didn't do or intend to do anything for this event - as if I wasn't ever doing anything productive for the scene, you mofo! ( ). This feeling is only natural, but as an organizer you need to get over it. You can disagree with what I wrote about the PR and its importance and that's fine, it's your tournament. But if you're going to get angry at me and the community instead for not doing anything about it, then you failed as an organizer, because the organizer is supposed to fix the problems. That is the position you put yourself in. I hope you can still fix this. Or let someone else do it. Both options seem better than giving up because you believe a couple of people here don't like you or don't trust you enough etc. Sorry for the long post but since this is something that could play a huge role for BW in the future, I do believe it is worth taking some time and thinking it through. Please do. It would be a tragedy to let this die just because of a few simple errors and a misunderstanding and giving up instead of facing these. Take a couple of hours or even days and see if you can find some inner spirit and get over the couple of people disliking you or whatever is the underlying issue here. You know I don't know you, I haven't really heard anything about you either and even if I did I wouldn't care unless I actually got to know you myself, so none of the above or my original post was meant to attack your persona in any way. I hope that's clear. I do have a tendency to talk bluntly about the things I don't consider to be flawless, so sorry about that. Since we're about giving criticism, I'll give you a couple then comment on your criticism for me. 1) Have you seen the post history in both threads? The amount of flame to criticism ratio is quite off balance. It's true that this is from a certain few, which I don't get mad at because I know they either are just trolls with nothing better to do or they actually somehow don't understand anything. In either case, I can get by just by considering their situation. However, that the community backs up flamers and lists them as valid criticism is unbelievable. Given that there's a noticeable distinction between posts from people who hate me and the rest (gecko, nina, messer, 2pac)... I don't know how you guys don't pick up on this and discourage. 2) This point also takes into consideration the first. In order to provide constructive criticism, it has to be given privately, as soon as you open it up to a public discussion thread it's no longer a friendly conversation because of how people build off of it. Otherwise I agree with a lot of your criticism, the event is not developed because I stopped doing stuff for Brood War mainly because of Gambit's Cup. As far as working with people, the only thing that came up was translators which can be found anywhere and everywhere. It's not what the event needs right now (so I apologize if it comes across as I can't work with people --- Which also should obviously not be the case given that I've worked plenty with Game, nOoNe and a few others). On another note, I will start up full swing again for Gambit's Cup Round 2 and for these events to make them the best they possibly can be. However, I won't be doing anything for Brood War afterwards The guy gives you a page of ways to improve it, and then he offers to help if you're interested. You guys should just already get this going instead of arguing about the same thing of getting this event going more smoothly since this is the most money for a foreign BW event.
On another note, I will start up full swing again for Gambit's Cup Round 2 and for these events to make them the best they possibly can be.
I'm pretty confident you just don't read english.
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On October 22 2012 12:03 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 09:58 dRaW wrote:On October 22 2012 08:18 Eywa- wrote:On October 22 2012 02:34 Stratos wrote:We were discussing the event with Dollar, because we wanted to make it a success in Prague. We thought we found a flaw in the overall design and considered it best to present it to you. This flaw was most certainly holding back people from helping or even paying attention to the event. Why care if it's most likely not going to happen anyway? Should I share with my friends if I don't even know? Should I link people to the thread that looks precisely as a really bad scam would look like? Should I invest my time to make it better if I don't have any guarantee that it's real?Personally I didn't even ask myself the last question because I don't consider my editing skills good enough to appropriately present the event the way it should be presented. And yes, if it's an event with that prizepool, it should be well presented. Whether this flaw worked subconsciously or otherwise, the effect is clear enough. The only way to prove that it's all real was to either get a large enough group of people to work on it together or to show that you have the money by investing some of it beforehand. That's what all the events out there do, and it's for a reason. It won't happen just by saying: Hi folks, we worked really hard, have an unreal amount of money, please help us make this happen (without the please). Actually there is nothing about seeking for help or volunteers in the OP, unless it's hidden in the FAQ. If you can't work with people, which seems to be the case here (and should not be taken as an insult, but just an observation), you've got to do the latter or leave it to someone more capable in this regard. If you come up with something and say you're going to make it happen, then you either make it happen or lose credibility. At this point, this is something only you can fix. You cannot blame the people for not trusting you. But more importantly, you cannot blame anyone for not donating their time, even if they did trust you. We didn't come up with this event, you did. If you knew you couldn't make it happen on your own, you could've at least said so. What was actually written in the original thread was: "Ladies and Gentlemen, the Euro 2013 Winter games have arrived. The stage is set, all that remains are the players and fans. This winter, we will be providing you with non-stop Starcraft: Brood War action as we tour the globe seeking out each Nation's finest Starcraft players. This tournament is the first of it's kind since World Cyber Games itself. Also, boasting the second highest recorded prize in foreign Brood War history, it is sure to be a spectacle of special magnificence."This is not the end of the world though. Moscow can by a trial to see if you can actually make the event run smoothly. If you can, the championship will hopefully regain at least some of the needed credibility. Make sure the event in Moscow is a fucking blast and I'm sure more people will be interested in helping and playing in the next one. + Show Spoiler [more personal appeal] +Note - I'm not saying you're a bad person if this whole thing doesn't turn out to be as good as was expected or even if it doesn't happen at all, obviously if your intentions were such as you claim them to be, you're actually an awesome guy. Nonetheless, if you come up with something awesome and present it as a ready project but then can't make it properly happen, you will lose your credibility - if there was any to begin with (I don't really know you so I can't judge). Blaming others now for not stepping up, regardless of the reasons, or saying you don't care will work too. As the organizer, it is your job to make this as best as possible given the circumstances. I've done my share of organizing shit for others in the past so I know it can will be rough. But if you can't deal with it, then please do consider finding someone else to do it. Pay them using some of the money from the prizepool if you must. I'm sure people will understand. If someone recognizes a flaw and you agree that it is in fact a flaw, you should try to fix it. Or you can give up, that is your call to make. Lastly, to be perfectly clear, the flaws in the presentation of this tournament are nowhere near as important as the organizer saying he doesn't care. I hope you can somehow get over this criticism and accept it the way it is meant. All I'm saying is that there are things you need to improve if you want the tournament to work better. Since you're the organizer, this is basically the same thing as if I was pointing out flaws on your children. Everyone hates that. Also anyone who ever made/produced/painted/written/organized anything and presented to others for free was disappointed or even angry when others disapproved. I'm also slightly annoyed at you saying I didn't do or intend to do anything for this event - as if I wasn't ever doing anything productive for the scene, you mofo! ( ). This feeling is only natural, but as an organizer you need to get over it. You can disagree with what I wrote about the PR and its importance and that's fine, it's your tournament. But if you're going to get angry at me and the community instead for not doing anything about it, then you failed as an organizer, because the organizer is supposed to fix the problems. That is the position you put yourself in. I hope you can still fix this. Or let someone else do it. Both options seem better than giving up because you believe a couple of people here don't like you or don't trust you enough etc. Sorry for the long post but since this is something that could play a huge role for BW in the future, I do believe it is worth taking some time and thinking it through. Please do. It would be a tragedy to let this die just because of a few simple errors and a misunderstanding and giving up instead of facing these. Take a couple of hours or even days and see if you can find some inner spirit and get over the couple of people disliking you or whatever is the underlying issue here. You know I don't know you, I haven't really heard anything about you either and even if I did I wouldn't care unless I actually got to know you myself, so none of the above or my original post was meant to attack your persona in any way. I hope that's clear. I do have a tendency to talk bluntly about the things I don't consider to be flawless, so sorry about that. Since we're about giving criticism, I'll give you a couple then comment on your criticism for me. 1) Have you seen the post history in both threads? The amount of flame to criticism ratio is quite off balance. It's true that this is from a certain few, which I don't get mad at because I know they either are just trolls with nothing better to do or they actually somehow don't understand anything. In either case, I can get by just by considering their situation. However, that the community backs up flamers and lists them as valid criticism is unbelievable. Given that there's a noticeable distinction between posts from people who hate me and the rest (gecko, nina, messer, 2pac)... I don't know how you guys don't pick up on this and discourage. 2) This point also takes into consideration the first. In order to provide constructive criticism, it has to be given privately, as soon as you open it up to a public discussion thread it's no longer a friendly conversation because of how people build off of it. Otherwise I agree with a lot of your criticism, the event is not developed because I stopped doing stuff for Brood War mainly because of Gambit's Cup. As far as working with people, the only thing that came up was translators which can be found anywhere and everywhere. It's not what the event needs right now (so I apologize if it comes across as I can't work with people --- Which also should obviously not be the case given that I've worked plenty with Game, nOoNe and a few others). On another note, I will start up full swing again for Gambit's Cup Round 2 and for these events to make them the best they possibly can be. However, I won't be doing anything for Brood War afterwards The guy gives you a page of ways to improve it, and then he offers to help if you're interested. You guys should just already get this going instead of arguing about the same thing of getting this event going more smoothly since this is the most money for a foreign BW event. On another note, I will start up full swing again for Gambit's Cup Round 2 and for these events to make them the best they possibly can be.I'm pretty confident you just don't read english.
I see the bold, I will believe it when I see an actual attempt at it. Also, they have offered their help so you can at least use that...
On October 22 2012 12:31 Pucca wrote:
What does "swing" mean?
everything will be running smoothly, updates and all.
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On October 22 2012 12:31 dRaW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 12:03 Eywa- wrote:On October 22 2012 09:58 dRaW wrote:On October 22 2012 08:18 Eywa- wrote:On October 22 2012 02:34 Stratos wrote:We were discussing the event with Dollar, because we wanted to make it a success in Prague. We thought we found a flaw in the overall design and considered it best to present it to you. This flaw was most certainly holding back people from helping or even paying attention to the event. Why care if it's most likely not going to happen anyway? Should I share with my friends if I don't even know? Should I link people to the thread that looks precisely as a really bad scam would look like? Should I invest my time to make it better if I don't have any guarantee that it's real?Personally I didn't even ask myself the last question because I don't consider my editing skills good enough to appropriately present the event the way it should be presented. And yes, if it's an event with that prizepool, it should be well presented. Whether this flaw worked subconsciously or otherwise, the effect is clear enough. The only way to prove that it's all real was to either get a large enough group of people to work on it together or to show that you have the money by investing some of it beforehand. That's what all the events out there do, and it's for a reason. It won't happen just by saying: Hi folks, we worked really hard, have an unreal amount of money, please help us make this happen (without the please). Actually there is nothing about seeking for help or volunteers in the OP, unless it's hidden in the FAQ. If you can't work with people, which seems to be the case here (and should not be taken as an insult, but just an observation), you've got to do the latter or leave it to someone more capable in this regard. If you come up with something and say you're going to make it happen, then you either make it happen or lose credibility. At this point, this is something only you can fix. You cannot blame the people for not trusting you. But more importantly, you cannot blame anyone for not donating their time, even if they did trust you. We didn't come up with this event, you did. If you knew you couldn't make it happen on your own, you could've at least said so. What was actually written in the original thread was: "Ladies and Gentlemen, the Euro 2013 Winter games have arrived. The stage is set, all that remains are the players and fans. This winter, we will be providing you with non-stop Starcraft: Brood War action as we tour the globe seeking out each Nation's finest Starcraft players. This tournament is the first of it's kind since World Cyber Games itself. Also, boasting the second highest recorded prize in foreign Brood War history, it is sure to be a spectacle of special magnificence."This is not the end of the world though. Moscow can by a trial to see if you can actually make the event run smoothly. If you can, the championship will hopefully regain at least some of the needed credibility. Make sure the event in Moscow is a fucking blast and I'm sure more people will be interested in helping and playing in the next one. + Show Spoiler [more personal appeal] +Note - I'm not saying you're a bad person if this whole thing doesn't turn out to be as good as was expected or even if it doesn't happen at all, obviously if your intentions were such as you claim them to be, you're actually an awesome guy. Nonetheless, if you come up with something awesome and present it as a ready project but then can't make it properly happen, you will lose your credibility - if there was any to begin with (I don't really know you so I can't judge). Blaming others now for not stepping up, regardless of the reasons, or saying you don't care will work too. As the organizer, it is your job to make this as best as possible given the circumstances. I've done my share of organizing shit for others in the past so I know it can will be rough. But if you can't deal with it, then please do consider finding someone else to do it. Pay them using some of the money from the prizepool if you must. I'm sure people will understand. If someone recognizes a flaw and you agree that it is in fact a flaw, you should try to fix it. Or you can give up, that is your call to make. Lastly, to be perfectly clear, the flaws in the presentation of this tournament are nowhere near as important as the organizer saying he doesn't care. I hope you can somehow get over this criticism and accept it the way it is meant. All I'm saying is that there are things you need to improve if you want the tournament to work better. Since you're the organizer, this is basically the same thing as if I was pointing out flaws on your children. Everyone hates that. Also anyone who ever made/produced/painted/written/organized anything and presented to others for free was disappointed or even angry when others disapproved. I'm also slightly annoyed at you saying I didn't do or intend to do anything for this event - as if I wasn't ever doing anything productive for the scene, you mofo! ( ). This feeling is only natural, but as an organizer you need to get over it. You can disagree with what I wrote about the PR and its importance and that's fine, it's your tournament. But if you're going to get angry at me and the community instead for not doing anything about it, then you failed as an organizer, because the organizer is supposed to fix the problems. That is the position you put yourself in. I hope you can still fix this. Or let someone else do it. Both options seem better than giving up because you believe a couple of people here don't like you or don't trust you enough etc. Sorry for the long post but since this is something that could play a huge role for BW in the future, I do believe it is worth taking some time and thinking it through. Please do. It would be a tragedy to let this die just because of a few simple errors and a misunderstanding and giving up instead of facing these. Take a couple of hours or even days and see if you can find some inner spirit and get over the couple of people disliking you or whatever is the underlying issue here. You know I don't know you, I haven't really heard anything about you either and even if I did I wouldn't care unless I actually got to know you myself, so none of the above or my original post was meant to attack your persona in any way. I hope that's clear. I do have a tendency to talk bluntly about the things I don't consider to be flawless, so sorry about that. Since we're about giving criticism, I'll give you a couple then comment on your criticism for me. 1) Have you seen the post history in both threads? The amount of flame to criticism ratio is quite off balance. It's true that this is from a certain few, which I don't get mad at because I know they either are just trolls with nothing better to do or they actually somehow don't understand anything. In either case, I can get by just by considering their situation. However, that the community backs up flamers and lists them as valid criticism is unbelievable. Given that there's a noticeable distinction between posts from people who hate me and the rest (gecko, nina, messer, 2pac)... I don't know how you guys don't pick up on this and discourage. 2) This point also takes into consideration the first. In order to provide constructive criticism, it has to be given privately, as soon as you open it up to a public discussion thread it's no longer a friendly conversation because of how people build off of it. Otherwise I agree with a lot of your criticism, the event is not developed because I stopped doing stuff for Brood War mainly because of Gambit's Cup. As far as working with people, the only thing that came up was translators which can be found anywhere and everywhere. It's not what the event needs right now (so I apologize if it comes across as I can't work with people --- Which also should obviously not be the case given that I've worked plenty with Game, nOoNe and a few others). On another note, I will start up full swing again for Gambit's Cup Round 2 and for these events to make them the best they possibly can be. However, I won't be doing anything for Brood War afterwards The guy gives you a page of ways to improve it, and then he offers to help if you're interested. You guys should just already get this going instead of arguing about the same thing of getting this event going more smoothly since this is the most money for a foreign BW event. On another note, I will start up full swing again for Gambit's Cup Round 2 and for these events to make them the best they possibly can be.I'm pretty confident you just don't read english. I see the bold, I will believe it when I see an actual attempt at it. Also, they have offered their help so you can at least use that... everything will be running smoothly, updates and all.
谢谢！
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On October 22 2012 12:31 dRaW wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 12:03 Eywa- wrote:On October 22 2012 09:58 dRaW wrote:On October 22 2012 08:18 Eywa- wrote:On October 22 2012 02:34 Stratos wrote:We were discussing the event with Dollar, because we wanted to make it a success in Prague. We thought we found a flaw in the overall design and considered it best to present it to you. This flaw was most certainly holding back people from helping or even paying attention to the event. Why care if it's most likely not going to happen anyway? Should I share with my friends if I don't even know? Should I link people to the thread that looks precisely as a really bad scam would look like? Should I invest my time to make it better if I don't have any guarantee that it's real?Personally I didn't even ask myself the last question because I don't consider my editing skills good enough to appropriately present the event the way it should be presented. And yes, if it's an event with that prizepool, it should be well presented. Whether this flaw worked subconsciously or otherwise, the effect is clear enough. The only way to prove that it's all real was to either get a large enough group of people to work on it together or to show that you have the money by investing some of it beforehand. That's what all the events out there do, and it's for a reason. It won't happen just by saying: Hi folks, we worked really hard, have an unreal amount of money, please help us make this happen (without the please). Actually there is nothing about seeking for help or volunteers in the OP, unless it's hidden in the FAQ. If you can't work with people, which seems to be the case here (and should not be taken as an insult, but just an observation), you've got to do the latter or leave it to someone more capable in this regard. If you come up with something and say you're going to make it happen, then you either make it happen or lose credibility. At this point, this is something only you can fix. You cannot blame the people for not trusting you. But more importantly, you cannot blame anyone for not donating their time, even if they did trust you. We didn't come up with this event, you did. If you knew you couldn't make it happen on your own, you could've at least said so. What was actually written in the original thread was: "Ladies and Gentlemen, the Euro 2013 Winter games have arrived. The stage is set, all that remains are the players and fans. This winter, we will be providing you with non-stop Starcraft: Brood War action as we tour the globe seeking out each Nation's finest Starcraft players. This tournament is the first of it's kind since World Cyber Games itself. Also, boasting the second highest recorded prize in foreign Brood War history, it is sure to be a spectacle of special magnificence."This is not the end of the world though. Moscow can by a trial to see if you can actually make the event run smoothly. If you can, the championship will hopefully regain at least some of the needed credibility. Make sure the event in Moscow is a fucking blast and I'm sure more people will be interested in helping and playing in the next one. + Show Spoiler [more personal appeal] +Note - I'm not saying you're a bad person if this whole thing doesn't turn out to be as good as was expected or even if it doesn't happen at all, obviously if your intentions were such as you claim them to be, you're actually an awesome guy. Nonetheless, if you come up with something awesome and present it as a ready project but then can't make it properly happen, you will lose your credibility - if there was any to begin with (I don't really know you so I can't judge). Blaming others now for not stepping up, regardless of the reasons, or saying you don't care will work too. As the organizer, it is your job to make this as best as possible given the circumstances. I've done my share of organizing shit for others in the past so I know it can will be rough. But if you can't deal with it, then please do consider finding someone else to do it. Pay them using some of the money from the prizepool if you must. I'm sure people will understand. If someone recognizes a flaw and you agree that it is in fact a flaw, you should try to fix it. Or you can give up, that is your call to make. Lastly, to be perfectly clear, the flaws in the presentation of this tournament are nowhere near as important as the organizer saying he doesn't care. I hope you can somehow get over this criticism and accept it the way it is meant. All I'm saying is that there are things you need to improve if you want the tournament to work better. Since you're the organizer, this is basically the same thing as if I was pointing out flaws on your children. Everyone hates that. Also anyone who ever made/produced/painted/written/organized anything and presented to others for free was disappointed or even angry when others disapproved. I'm also slightly annoyed at you saying I didn't do or intend to do anything for this event - as if I wasn't ever doing anything productive for the scene, you mofo! ( ). This feeling is only natural, but as an organizer you need to get over it. You can disagree with what I wrote about the PR and its importance and that's fine, it's your tournament. But if you're going to get angry at me and the community instead for not doing anything about it, then you failed as an organizer, because the organizer is supposed to fix the problems. That is the position you put yourself in. I hope you can still fix this. Or let someone else do it. Both options seem better than giving up because you believe a couple of people here don't like you or don't trust you enough etc. Sorry for the long post but since this is something that could play a huge role for BW in the future, I do believe it is worth taking some time and thinking it through. Please do. It would be a tragedy to let this die just because of a few simple errors and a misunderstanding and giving up instead of facing these. Take a couple of hours or even days and see if you can find some inner spirit and get over the couple of people disliking you or whatever is the underlying issue here. You know I don't know you, I haven't really heard anything about you either and even if I did I wouldn't care unless I actually got to know you myself, so none of the above or my original post was meant to attack your persona in any way. I hope that's clear. I do have a tendency to talk bluntly about the things I don't consider to be flawless, so sorry about that. Since we're about giving criticism, I'll give you a couple then comment on your criticism for me. 1) Have you seen the post history in both threads? The amount of flame to criticism ratio is quite off balance. It's true that this is from a certain few, which I don't get mad at because I know they either are just trolls with nothing better to do or they actually somehow don't understand anything. In either case, I can get by just by considering their situation. However, that the community backs up flamers and lists them as valid criticism is unbelievable. Given that there's a noticeable distinction between posts from people who hate me and the rest (gecko, nina, messer, 2pac)... I don't know how you guys don't pick up on this and discourage. 2) This point also takes into consideration the first. In order to provide constructive criticism, it has to be given privately, as soon as you open it up to a public discussion thread it's no longer a friendly conversation because of how people build off of it. Otherwise I agree with a lot of your criticism, the event is not developed because I stopped doing stuff for Brood War mainly because of Gambit's Cup. As far as working with people, the only thing that came up was translators which can be found anywhere and everywhere. It's not what the event needs right now (so I apologize if it comes across as I can't work with people --- Which also should obviously not be the case given that I've worked plenty with Game, nOoNe and a few others). On another note, I will start up full swing again for Gambit's Cup Round 2 and for these events to make them the best they possibly can be. However, I won't be doing anything for Brood War afterwards The guy gives you a page of ways to improve it, and then he offers to help if you're interested. You guys should just already get this going instead of arguing about the same thing of getting this event going more smoothly since this is the most money for a foreign BW event. On another note, I will start up full swing again for Gambit's Cup Round 2 and for these events to make them the best they possibly can be.I'm pretty confident you just don't read english. I see the bold, I will believe it when I see an actual attempt at it. Also, they have offered their help so you can at least use that... everything will be running smoothly, updates and all.
So given that you saw that, you basically posted telling me to do what I just posted I should do (pretending as you didn't read it + Show Spoiler + because you assumed I'd not actually do it. Please enlighten me, in what scenario does this post help anything BW related?
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EPT
